Pathfinder - Countering multiple ever burning torches

[Splendor]

Hello,

As the DM I am trying to ambush my group. The group carries multiple everburning torches. I want the ambushers to cast darkness and then use their darkvision to have an advantage against the party.

Darkness and Continual Flame are both 2nd level. So a single casting of darkness would only affect one everburning torch, leaving the other everburning torches ti lite the area.

I can't use deeper darkness because that would negate darkvision.
But can I heighten darkness to 3rd level and counter all the everburning torches?

[Twilightwyrm]

Unless I am reading the spell wrong, a casting of darkness does not dispel all light spells within the area, but rather is used to counter and dispel a single other casting of a light spell of equal or lower level (Which continual flame, in this case, is). Therefore, one casting of darkness, whether you heighten it or not, can only counter (and most likely suppress, if you are treating Everburning Torches as magic items) one such torch. Therefore, you will need multiple casting, likely over multiple rounds of the party does not keep all of their torches out at all times, to fully nullify the effects of their torches.
Additionally, this is Pathfinder, so it would not be unreasonable that any party casters might high at will Light spells on hand, and Dust of Twilight is out of the question, as Everburning Torches are magical light sources. So honestly, I don't see much you can do without resorting to higher level spells.

[Ravens_cry]

Maybe find another way to ambush them? Invisibility is a same level spell, as is silence. Both are good for ambushes.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

Did I hear 'can't use deeper darkness because it negates darkvision'? Thats the ONLY reason to use it. Have a Dark Stalker fight them. Works every time. Or have it set in the Plane of Shadows, either way.

... that second part is a joke, dont subject your players to that.

[Douglas]

Unless I am reading the spell wrong, a casting of darkness does not dispel all light spells within the area, but rather is used to counter and dispel a single other casting of a light spell of equal or lower level (Which continual flame, in this case, is). Therefore, one casting of darkness, whether you heighten it or not, can only counter (and most likely suppress, if you are treating Everburning Torches as magic items) one such torch.
That is if you are attempting to permanently dispel the light spell(s). For temporary purposes, a single Darkness spell can override and suppress an unlimited number of lower level light spells in its area.

So yes, Heightened Darkness should work.

[Hamste]

Magical light sources only increase the light level in an area if they are of a higher spell level than*darkness.

Please note it is in the area not just one spell so darkness works. Darkness has a 20ft radius you do not need to target each torch individually

[Spore]

That is if you are attempting to permanently dispel the light spell(s). For temporary purposes, a single Darkness spell can override and suppress an unlimited number of lower level light spells in its area.

So yes, Heightened Darkness should work.

I am not very savvy on metamagic talents. Does a 'silent' darkness work the same?

[avr]

I don't believe the spell level increase from metamagic feats counts for any such purpose unless it's from Heighten Spell, no. So a Silent Darkness is 2nd level for the purposes of which light spells defeat it.

The line 'Magical light sources only increase the light level in an area if they are of a higher spell level than darkness' suggests that a cleric, oracle or inquisitor-cast Continual Flame will beat Darkness but a sorcerer or wizard-cast Continual Flame won't. If your players went for the cheapest caster, Darkness alone will defeat them.

[Douglas]

I am not very savvy on metamagic talents. Does a 'silent' darkness work the same?
No. Most metamagics increase the level of the slot required to cast, but leave the level of the actual spell the same. Only Heighten Spell actually increases the spell's level, and that is what matters for this interaction.


The line 'Magical light sources only increase the light level in an area if they are of a higher spell level than darkness' suggests that a cleric, oracle or inquisitor-cast Continual Flame will beat Darkness but a sorcerer or wizard-cast Continual Flame won't. If your players went for the cheapest caster, Darkness alone will defeat them.
Regular Darkness is of equal level to sor/wiz Continual Flame. As such, it can negate one sor/wiz Continual Flame, and the OP was quite specific that his party has several. To trump multiple Continual Flames simultaneously, Darkness needs to be higher level, not higher-or-equal.

Whoops, missed that this is Pathfinder and has a critical wording change from 3.5. Pathfinder apparently changed the rules so that level ties are won by the darkness descriptor. Except for the Daylight spell, which doesn't care about level and mutually cancels out with [darkness] spells regardless of level, neither trumping nor being trumped by but rather falling back on "whatever else is here".

[FrznTear]

Have the ambushers wait in hiding inside of an illusion of a tree or wall, having the PC's light snuffed out gives them warning that something is about to go down.

Of course there should always be some sort of counter play to ambushes. Kind of unfun when someone gets gibbed in a surprise round and there was nothing that could have been done.

[Psyren]

Deeper Darkness won't necessarily shut off their darkvision. Remember that DD lowers the light level 2 steps, and only turns off darkvision if it drops into supernatural darkness. An Everburning Torch meanwhile is bright light within 20ft. Bright minus 2 = regular darkness, not supernatural darkness.

So, within a 20ft. radius of the torches, your ambushers will be able to see and the party will not. How soon they catch onto this fact should be interesting.

Getting close to the torches however will be a problem, since 40ft. out will be dim light. So I would have them cast both Darkness and Deeper Darkness on stones, cover up the latter, approach the camp, and switch stones at exactly 20ft. out.

[Benthesquid]

Clearly, the solution is to have the fight take place in an Antimagic field, which will shut off their torches. In fact, have all your fights take place in antimagic fields, as it also does a good job of countering all the other pesky magic items you'll otherwise have to plan around.

Alternatively, as noted, ties go to Darkness spells, so Heightened Darkness or Deeper Darkness would work. For added cruelty, throw in a spellcaster with Silent Blindness, so that when the lights do come back on, not all of the PCs realize it.

[Splendor]

The SRD says:

Magical light sources only increase the light level in an area if they are of a higher spell level than darkness. -- http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/d/darkness

So shouldn't a single heightened darkness spell (3rd level) overpower all of the everburning torches (2nd level spells)?

[Slipperychicken]

It's such a shame you can't do ranged sunder (which doesn't make sense IMO), otherwise that would be the perfect way to take those torches out from a distance.