Question about rule in Warhammer 40K

[Narmoth]

Okay, I know this is probably the wrong forum to post this in at all, but anyway. I found this rule in the Warhammer 40.000 Space Marines Codex, and me and my friends interpret it differently. PLease read the whole post before woting. The rule is the following:

"Space marines special rules:
Librarians and Chaplains may be attached to another character's Command Squad. Only one character might be attached to a single command squad. The attached character, the squad and the character leading it counts as a single HQ choise."

Alternative 1:
I interpret it as that I can have 1 Commander, 1 Chaplain, 1 Libraria and 1 Command squad as part of 1 UNIT, and that the WHOLE unit counts as 1 HQ choise. This would allow me to have 6 CHARACTERS using up only 2 HQ choise.

Alternative 2:
My friends interpret this as that the UNIT counts as 1 HQ choise, with the Command Squad attached to a Character (Commander, Chaplain or Librarian) couunting as 1 HQ choise, but the attached characters (Librarians and Chaplains) count as 1 HQ choise each, limiting me to having a only two CHARACTERS. THis alternative allows therefore me to have only 1 Character/ HQ choise, limiting my maximum of CHARACTERS in a Space Marines army to 2.

What do y

[Penguinizer]

A character and its retinue counts as one hq choice I think.

[Yuki Akuma]

I'm almost positive it counts as 1 HQ choice.

That is, all the seperate characters count as a single unit (and move as such), which is a single HQ choice.

But I play 'nids, so what do I know?

[Penguinizer]

with nids the hq and his retinue count as a single hq choice aswell.

[Yuki Akuma]

with nids the hq and his retinue count as a single hq choice aswell.

I'm just saying, Tyranids have no special characters, so I haven't bothered to read the rules regarding them. :smalltongue:

[Crazy Owl]

I would say its the second one and the first one is a waste of points if it is right anyway.

[Narmoth]

A character and its retinue counts as one hq choice I think.

The question is if I can add another character to a first characters retinue without taking up an aditional HQ slot when I'm playing space marines (for that's what kind of figures I collect :smalltongue:). Sorry if I put it a bit vague, but english is my 3-rd language

[Penguinizer]

Actually Nids have 2 special characters in the old codex. The red terror, and old one eye.

[Crazy Owl]

Yeah and none now.

[Penguinizer]

Not in the official codex but there are rules for them at the GW web site.

[Crazy Owl]

Theres no point in One-eye rules. It just a Carnifex with crushing claws, Scything Talons and regneration.

[Penguinizer]

actually the regeneration is non-standard. Normally you roll one die for each wound taken and gain one wound for each 6. But with old one eye I think you roll the dice when he dies and on a succesfull roll he comes back to life.

[Selrahc]

Well I think the first option is the correct one.

After all, it mentiions "The attached character, the squad and the character leading it counts as a single HQ choise" Which seems pretty cut and dried. You really have to stretch to get a different meaning.


On Old One Eye, doesn't he automatically regenerate a wound every turn, and get back up on a 4+? As well as having D6 attacks from his scything talons.

Hes pretty non-standard.

[Crazy Owl]

Having d6 Attacks is a standard upgrade for Carnifex now.

[Wehrkind]

You can have an extra character in your command squad, the entire unit, main character, secondary character and squad being one HQ choice.
So basically, if you want to shoehorn in extra characters for a mess of points, you can.
Also, looking at my Codex, you might want to make certain you have the most recent version, since mine words it somewhat differently, and more clearly thankfully. So yea, go nuts with 1 commander, 1 chaplain and 1 librarian plus squad as your command unit that costs 600 points or so. Keep in mind though, you are not allowed to separate them into individual characters unless the squad members all bite it, leaving only characters.

[Penguinizer]

Couldnt find how many attacks the Carnifex gets in the codex. But Im pretty sure he gets double attacks for each weapon.

[Yuki Akuma]

Trust me. Tyranids have no special characters. It doesn't fit the theme of the species.

I play fourth edition Warhammer 40k, thank you very much. :smalltongue: I don't care about your silly Old One Eye and Red Terror.

If I want a Carnifex with scything talons, crushing claws and regeneration, I'll make a Carnifex with scything talons, crushing claws and regeneration.

I prefer my twin-linked venom cannons, though.

[Narmoth]

You can have an extra character in your command squad, the entire unit, main character, secondary character and squad being one HQ choice.
So basically, if you want to shoehorn in extra characters for a mess of points, you can.
Also, looking at my Codex, you might want to make certain you have the most recent version, since mine words it somewhat differently, and more clearly thankfully. So yea, go nuts with 1 commander, 1 chaplain and 1 librarian plus squad as your command unit that costs 600 points or so. Keep in mind though, you are not allowed to separate them into individual characters unless the squad members all bite it, leaving only characters.

Actually my plan is to have command squad with general and a chaplian and have one character in addition to lead another squad (I do this to have one more leader with 3 wounds). I play for fluff, and I think my army can afford the extra points cost.

[Penguinizer]

But, he gets 1d6+1 attacks per turn and can be included in all Tyranid armies under 1500 points.

[Hoggmaster]

In each command (which can be a Chaplain or Librarian) squad you may *attach* a chaplain and/or librarian. In theory (as I read it) you could have a Command squad with three Librarians.

[Yuki Akuma]

But, he gets 1d6+1 attacks per turn and can be included in all Tyranid armies under 1500 points.

Not anymore.

According to the canon, Old One Eye and the Red Terror have been reabsorbed by the Tyranid Hive Mind, and their genetic makeup has been incorporated into every Carnifex/Whatever it is the Red Terror was. This is why any Carnifex can now get scything talons, crushing claws and regeneration.

[Penguinizer]

oh ok, wasnt avare of that part.

[Narmoth]

In each command (which can be a Chaplain or Librarian) squad you may *attach* a chaplain and/or librarian. In theory (as I read it) you could have a Command squad with three Librarians.

Sorry, I didn't post the whole rule, only the part that was relevant to my question. The full rule is:

Space Marine Characters
Space Marine Commanders, Librarians and Chaplains can be used in one of three ways.

All may operate independently, joining and leaving units as described in the Warhammer 40,000 rules for Characters.
2. All may lead a Command squad. The character and the unit are a single HQ choice. The character is a member of the unit and may not leave it. If the squad is destroyed the character may operate independently.
Librarians and Chaplains may be attached to another character’s Command squad. Only one character of a given type may be attached to a single Command squad. The attached character, the squad and the character is a member of the unit and may not leave it. If the unit is destroyed the attached character and leading character may operate independently. A character who is leading or attached to a squad does not stop being an Independent Character for the purposes of close combat.


So, no, you can not use this rule to have 3 Librarians in one command squad, only 2 librarians (that goes for any other kind of character to)

[Jalil]

this rule means that you can feild one HQ slot with each of your three seperate IC's in it. you could even field two, which is a granted pointsink. The rules are quite clear on this.

[Crazy Owl]

Well they obviously are not clear otherwise we wouldn't be having this argument.

[Selrahc]

Well they obviously are not clear otherwise we wouldn't be having this argument.

You haven't exactly explained your objection to our interpretation though, just said that it wasn't true.


Tell me what the wriggle room is in that statement.

[Narmoth]

this rule means that you can feild one HQ slot with each of your three seperate IC's in it. you could even field two, which is a granted pointsink. The rules are quite clear on this.

I beieve the argument arises from the fact that the rule was different in the previous space marines codex (yes, this rule is for space marine chapters only) and players that have played by the older codex would object to this change, especially as it's mostly not applied since as many have pointed out, most of it's uses is just a waste of points.
Still, I have not found a way to prove that my interpretation is corect.:smallfrown: Anyone who can help with proowing it?

[Lucky]

I'll admit I've been out of this game since 4th Ed came around and made it too expensive to repurchase all the books, but I would almost certainly argue that it's 1 HQ choice.

[Crazy Owl]

You haven't exactly explained your objection to our interpretation though, just said that it wasn't true.


Tell me what the wriggle room is in that statement.

My defense is mainly that that what is the point in the rule. Why have more than two leader units, it just sucks up your points.

[Selrahc]

My defense is mainly that that what is the point in the rule. Why have more than two leader units, it just sucks up your points.

I have used that rule in a battle before, a few times.One such time was to attach a run of the mill Chaplain to a command squad led by a Master. Rerolls on all the attacks in the squad was helpful. The other HQ choice slot was a librarian, which I needed for an assasination attempt on the enemy leader from deepstrike.

It was a 1500 point game, and 130 points on a chaplain really wasn't rtoo much of a point sink, given that it effectively doubled my command squads efectiveness.

Theres also the fluff. Imagine a "council of leaders" style command squad. A Techmarine, Chaplain, Librarian, Master, Chapter Champion, Standard Bearer, Apothercary, and Sergeant. The high command of a chapter, as a battlefield unit, and centrepiece of the army, is now possible.

So, yes. There are reasons to use it. There is a point to it. And there is no reason by the rules to object to it. Whether or not you think its the wisest use of points is kind of irrelevant to whether or not its allowed. (I think assault marines in Jump Packs are a waste of points, but that doesn't mean they aren't legal for use:smalltongue: )

[The Prince of Cats]

(I think assault marines in Jump Packs are a waste of points, but that doesn't mean they aren't legal for use:smalltongue: )

You obviously don't see many Blood Angel Death Companies. When they are on form, they can make a screamer-killer worried...

(ignore me, I started on Rogue Trader rules and never played anything newer than 2nd edition)

[Selrahc]

You obviously don't see many Blood Angel Death Companies. When they are on form, they can make a screamer-killer worried...

(ignore me, I started on Rogue Trader rules and never played anything newer than 2nd edition)

The various upgraded versions of the Assault Troops are fine. Blood Angel Honour Guard, Shrikes Wing, Death Company, Raptors, Possesed with Flight etc. Are all fine. They're elite close combat units. Even furious charge helps a bit with this.

My issue is that the regular dudes have low killing power, coupled with low survivability. When you get them into close combat they don't even do that much. They don't strike first, they don't strike harder, they don't break squads, and they areneven that good at tieing down an enemy.

[DarkCorax]

It is quite clear that they are only one HQ choice.

Codex Space Marines Pg. 21:

3. Librarians and Chaplains may be attached to another character's command squad. Only one character of a given type may be attached o a single command squad. The attached character, the squad, and the chracter leading it are a single HQ choice.

Emphasis mine.

[Democratus]

I've seen 2 HQ units , with multiple independent characters each, in GW tournaments. Seems that the rules and the staff all interpret this the same way.

[LunaWolvesMan]

First question.

In the codex are there no (0-1) restrictions on librarians, chaplains or commanders?

I believe that just based on the rule you could likely field 1 of each, each in command of their own squad and if by some chance their squad dies you could have them join another characters command squad if need be.

I don't have a copy of the codex so I don't fully understand (and technically I believe you're not supposed to directly quote rules from the books online.)

I'm going to guess though that you shouldn't have more than one librarian per army, maybe the same with chaplains and I'm not sure about commanders.

Most armies (not space wolves) have a (0-1) restriction on HQ units though, so I don't believe that either of the options as stated in the poll are correct. I know a few space marine players, I'll grab a codex and get back this way sometime soon.

[Selrahc]

Most armies (not space wolves) have a (0-1) restriction on HQ units though, so I don't believe that either of the options as stated in the poll are correct. I know a few space marine players, I'll grab a codex and get back this way sometime soon.

No, Space Marines do not have 0-1 restrictions on any of their commanders.

And Space Wolves do, on the Rune Priest, Wolf Lord, VVenerable Dreadnaught and (I think) Wolf Priest.



(and technically I believe you're not supposed to directly quote rules from the books online.)

Technically every time someone uses an avatar image without express copyright permission, they could be sued by the holders of the copyright. That doesn't happen, because its such a small offence that nobody cares.



I believe that just based on the rule you could likely field 1 of each, each in command of their own squad and if by some chance their squad dies you could have them join another characters command squad if need be.

No... there is a two HQ limit. If you field each one in a seperate squad, then that would equal three HQ choices.