Warblade recovery mechanic RAW dispute

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

TL;DR version: Can a Warblade perform a full attack after spending a swift action to recover his maneuvers? I.E. does a full attack count as "a melee attack?"

Stemming from a question about White Raven Tactics in the RAW thread:
Q 888
Consider the following scenario, with Will the Warblade 5 (and assume you can WRT yourself.)

Round 1, Turn 1: Will full attacks, then spends a swift action to use White Raven Tactics on himself.
Round 1, Turn 2: Will spends a swift action to refresh maneuvers, making a standard action to attack.

And so on, every round, allowing WRT to be used every round to effectively provide an attack for any Warblade.

Is there some step that is against the rules? If so, what step?


A 888

No, there is nothing against the rules, but each time the warblade uses WRT, his Initiative drops by one.

Now think what would happen if the warblade gave the extra turn to the Wizard of the group. At worst that is 3 extra spells for the wizard. That is much more powerful than an extra attack

Also the warblade would probably better off using his extra turn for something other than recover and standard attack - recover and Full Attack for example.There was a disagreement about the Warblade's recovery mechanism:

Strategic opinions aside*, the Warblade has to make "a melee attack" after refreshing, which precludes a full attack.

Also, I'm mostly wondering if the Warblade gets a new swift action, since the wording is IMO ambiguous. Citations?

*A level 5 warblade is doubling his number of attacks per round, and can't use WRT every round if he's not granting it to himself and refreshing in this manner. Giving a full caster one extra set of actions is quite good, but nearly doubling the Warblade's attack potential every turn is at least competitive.


Look at the definition of attack (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/glossary&term=Glossary_dnd_attack&alpha=A) in the glossary. The restriction to a melee attack (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/glossary&term=Glossary_dnd_meleeattack&alpha=M) does not change that a full attack also qualifies either.

When you are not allowed to use something as part of a Full Attack the wording usually is something similar to: As a standard action make an attack...
Cf. Overrun (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#overrun) vs. Trip (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#trip).

Yes, the warblade gets a swift action, because WRT gives the beneficiary a new turn, if he has already acted that round. The actions you get on your turn are: one swift action, one move action, one standard action and any number of free actions the DM deems reasonable. The move and standard actions of course can be combined to a single Full Round Action.

Continuing the above discussion, while "attack" in the glossary is broad enough to include a full attack, the actual definition of a Full Attack via SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#fullAttack) is as follows:
If you get more than one attack per round because [...reasons...] you must use a full-round action to get your additional attacks. You do not need to specify the targets of your attacks ahead of time. You can see how the earlier attacks turn out before assigning the later ones.Emphasis mine. A full attack is a set of multiple attacks. (A melee full attack is a set of multiple melee attacks).

The Warblade recovery mechanism says the following: "You can recover all expended maneuvers with a single swift action, which must be immediately followed in the same round with a melee attack..." Emphasis mine.

Again, if the glossary definition was the only definition we had then sure, a full attack would count as "a melee attack." But the actual definition of a full attack defines it as multiple attacks. Therefore the Warblade can't recover his maneuvers and full attack in the same round.

[TuggyNE]

From a mathematician's standpoint, multiple attacks are one attack, and then some more, so by the strict wording there is no problem: the swift action is followed by a melee attack, certainly, and then it is also followed by several others.

To limit it to one and only one, it should instead read "make a single melee attack" or similar. It does not, so it really rather seems there's nothing wrong with full attacking while recovering.

[Firechanter]

... which has absolutely nothing to do with performing a Full Attack.

I go with the "a Full Attack is one attack and then some more", so yeah, you can.

[Vanitas]

Considering that you only need to declare a full-attack after your first attack, I think it does not matter either way.:-)

[Diarmuid]

Considering that you only need to declare a full-attack after your first attack, I think it does not matter either way.:-)

This is incorrect. You declare a full attack action, and then have the option to not take further attacks after the first and instead take a move action.

The distinction is important for purposes of calculating boni/penalties (for example dual wielding needs to account for penalties before making any attacks).

Edit - For Latin

[Chronos]

The distinction is important for purposes of calculating bonii/penalties
What's a "bonius"?

(sorry, abuse of Latin is a pet peeve of mine)

[StreamOfTheSky]

Yeah, you can do a swift and then any melee attack. And that does not preclude you from making more after that. Charge, spring attack, full attack...it all works. You just can't use a maneuver that turn, and you do need your swift (even if doing the standard action flourish) and thus can't recover at all if you used an immediate last round...aside from the level 8 diamond mind stance.

[Diarmuid]

What's a "bonius"?

(sorry, abuse of Latin is a pet peeve of mine)

Sorry, I blame typing on a tiny phone keyboard.

[nedz]

I thought that the classic trick with WRT was to have two Warblades daisy chaining WRT off each other.

The trouble is that you run out of swift actions, but isn't there some way of acquiring more of these ?

[StreamOfTheSky]

I thought that the classic trick with WRT was to have two Warblades daisy chaining WRT off each other.

The trouble is that you run out of swift actions, but isn't there some way of acquiring more of these ?

You don't run out of swift actions; each new turn you get gives you a new one. The "problem" is running out of WRT uses. The solution is often...have everyone in the party get WRT to make the chain longer. Or maybe use martial scripts to have more than 1 use of it before needing to re-ready, or whatever.

And yes, the Ruby Knight Windicator gives you more swift actions by burning turn undead uses. It's more a Crusader class, but crusaders also get WRT, so whatever.

[nedz]

You don't run out of swift actions; each new turn you get gives you a new one. The "problem" is running out of WRT uses. The solution is often...have everyone in the party get WRT to make the chain longer. Or maybe use martial scripts to have more than 1 use of it before needing to re-ready, or whatever.

And yes, the Ruby Knight Windicator gives you more swift actions by burning turn undead uses. It's more a Crusader class, but crusaders also get WRT, so whatever.

Well you need two swift actions per turn. One for WRT and one for rapid recovery.

[Andezzar]

Well you need two swift actions per turn. One for WRT and one for rapid recovery.That's what started the whole question.

After using his move and standard action as he sees fit the warblade uses WRT on himself. Since he has already acted this round, he gets to act again at his Initiative -1. Those actions he spends on (a move action to get into position), a swift action to start his recovery and a standard action or Full Round action to attack and finish recovery. This chain does not end, although the warblade will act later each round.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

That's what started the whole question.

After using his move and standard action as he sees fit the warblade uses WRT on himself. Since he has already acted this round, he gets to act again at his Initiative -1. Those actions he spends on (a move action to get into position), a swift action to start his recovery and a standard action or Full Round action to attack and finish recovery. This chain does not end, although the warblade will act later each round.

Unless I'm mistaken, the recovery mechanics state that youu cannot both recovery and expend a manuever on the same turn.

[nedz]

That's what started the whole question.

Yes I know, I was just explaining this to Stream.

Maybe you need an Idiot Crusader / RKV to pull this off ?
You could then have the multiple swift actions to obtain an arbitrary number of turns per round. Well you are limited by the number of TUs, however nightsticks.

[Andezzar]

Unless I'm mistaken, the recovery mechanics state that youu cannot both recovery and expend a manuever on the same turn.you are indeed mistaken. As I already wrote in the Q&A thread:
You can recover all expended maneuvers with a single swift action, which must be immediately followed in the same round with a melee attack or using a standard action to do nothing else in the round (such as executing a quick, harmless flourish with your weapon). You cannot initiate a maneuver or change your stance while you are recovering your expended maneuvers, but you can remain in a stance in which you began your turn.Before you take the swift action and after the attack/harmless flourish, you are not recovering your maneuvers. Nowhere does it say that the condition of not being able to use maneuvers persists for the rest of your turn or that it is applied retroactively.


Yes I know, I was just explaining this to Stream.

Maybe you need an Idiot Crusader / RKV to pull this off ?
You could then have the multiple swift actions to obtain an arbitrary number of turns per round. Well you are limited by the number of TUs, however nightsticks.You don't need anything but WRT to do it. WRT grants the beneficiary of the maneuver an extra turn. This turn also includes a swift action. So:
Round 1 at Initiative: spend move and standard action as you see fit
spend Swift action on WRT
Round 1 at Initiative -1 (turn granted by WRT): spend swift action to start recovery of maneuvers
Spend Standard or Full round Action to attack.
Round 2 at Initiative -1: spend move and standard action as you see fit
spend Swift action on WRT
Round 2 at Initiative -2 (turn granted by WRT): spend swift action to start recovery of maneuvers
Spend Standard or Full round Action to attack.
.
.
.

[Chronos]

With using the Warblade recovery mechanic, you effectively double your non-swift actions, since you need to use one swift on WRT, and one on recovery. The chain ends, in the sense that you then have to wait until the next round to do it again. With using the Crusader recovery mechanic, you can potentially get more, because crusaders don't need to take any action at all to recover, but they're unreliable. If you're using the Idiot Crusader trick, and the DM allows it, you can get an infinite number of actions, all in one round.

[Andezzar]

I thought something like that was called an infinite loop and not a chain.

[nedz]

With using the Warblade recovery mechanic, you effectively double your non-swift actions, since you need to use one swift on WRT, and one on recovery. The chain ends, in the sense that you then have to wait until the next round to do it again. With using the Crusader recovery mechanic, you can potentially get more, because crusaders don't need to take any action at all to recover, but they're unreliable. If you're using the Idiot Crusader trick, and the DM allows it, you can get an infinite number of actions, all in one round.

Exactly, well maybe not quite infinite but certainly enough.

[Shining Wrath]

First: my table has ruled that a Warblade can recover his maneuvers with a full attack, unanimously, several "rules lawyers" among us. If that helps.

Secondly:

WRT lets you move someone to the position following yours in the initiative order as a swift action.

Example: roll 12 on initiative.
Initiative point 12: move action, standard action
Initiative point 12: swift action, WRT on yourself
Initiative point 11: swift action, recover maneuvers
Initiative point 11: full attack

And then wait until initiative point 11 the next round.

[Andezzar]

That is exactly how it works by RAW.

[nedz]

Yes, is anyone actually disagreeing with this ?

[TuggyNE]

Yes, is anyone actually disagreeing with this ?

Well, the OP was, FWIW.

[theIrkin]

wait, isn't this all moot in a case such as Shining Wrath has explained? the exact text of a Swift Action is as follows:


Swift Action
A swift action consumes a very small amount of time, but represents a larger expenditure of effort and energy than a free action. You can perform only a single swift action per turn.


And here's the text for a Full Action:


Full-Round Action
A full-round action consumes all your effort during a round. The only movement you can take during a full-round action is a 5-foot step before, during, or after the action. You can also perform free actions (see below).

Some full-round actions do not allow you to take a 5-foot step.

Some full-round actions can be taken as standard actions, but only in situations when you are limited to performing only a standard action during your round. The descriptions of specific actions, below, detail which actions allow this option.


Therefore, based on the text, you could not perform a Swift Action and a Full Attack Action in the same round, both RAW and RAI. RAW of the Full Attack Action only mentions performing a Free Action in addition to your Full Attack Action, and by not specifically mentioning a Swift Action, you could not perform it. RAI, a Swift Action states that it takes more time than a Free Action, even if it is still a very small amount. Therefore, you cannot do both in the same round.

If there is Errata or FAQ that pertains to the actions you can take during your turn, I apologize, but based on those definitions, you could not recover your maneuvers and then Full Attack.

[lsfreak]

Under Swift Action:

You can take a swift action any time you would normally be allowed to take a free action.

As you can take free actions during a full-round action, you can also take a swift action.

EDIT: Same page you got your quote from, but scroll down to the actual subheading of Swift Actions, rather than the descriptions at the top of the page.

[theIrkin]

Oops... my bad. I'll have to inform my game group that showed me otherwise.

[ganresorc]

Target : One Ally


Wouldn't this prevent you from using it on yourself?

[Darrin]

Target : One Ally

Wouldn't this prevent you from using it on yourself?

Nope. PHB p. 304:

"ally: A creature friendly to you. In most cases, references to “allies” include yourself."

[lsfreak]

In 4e, "ally" explicitly excludes yourself, but in 3.X (as Darrin said) you are your own ally.

[Vanitas]

This is incorrect. You declare a full attack action, and then have the option to not take further attacks after the first and instead take a move action.

The distinction is important for purposes of calculating boni/penalties (for example dual wielding needs to account for penalties before making any attacks).

Edit - For Latin

If you are dual wielding, then you have to declare it before your first attack, sure.
That's not default, however.

[Pickford]

nedz:

Exactly, well maybe not quite infinite but certainly enough.

Hrm...I don't think that exactly works. Initiative counts function like so:

6 people (A, B, C, D, E, and F)

Post modifiers initiatives:
A: 20
B: 4
C: 3
D: 2
E: 1
F: 15

A goes first, uses swift action to WRT B. B's initiative is now 20-1, or 19, placing him next in the initiative count.
B goes second, uses swift atcion to WRT C. C's initiative is now 19-1 or 18, placing him next.
C does the same to D, giving D a new initiative count of 17.
D does the same to E, giving E a count of 16.
E does the same to A, giving A a count of 15...however now A has the same count as F.

So. Now we have a tie, according to the PHB (page 136):


If two or more combatants have the same initiative check result, the combatant who are tied act in order of total initiative modifier (highest first). If there is still a tie, the tied characters should roll again to determine which one of them goes before the other.

So, A and F roll off to see who goes first. Even assuming A had a way to get their WRT back, using it on any ally would place that ally's initiative count at 14, and after F has acted.

Once your team is all in a row, it's basically pointless to continue using WRT.

[TuggyNE]

Once your team is all in a row, it's basically pointless to continue using WRT.

Why is it pointless? You act again in the same round without giving the enemy more turns.

[nedz]

...Even assuming A had a way to get their WRT back

The point is that A can get their WRT back by spending a TU use, and they can have a lot of these.

So the initiative order is
X1, X2, ..., Xn, A, A, ..., A; where the Xs are characters who get to go before A, once. Now there maybe some other characters who can slide one go within the A sequence, but that hardly matters because the combat will likely be over before A runs out of TU attempts.