Is destroying a plane impossible? [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Kitbix

2013-11-11, 06:30 AM

So little back story first. My half sand dragon Walker of the Wastes is trying to destroy the elemental plane of water. He believes that Water is the basis of all sin and that by destroying this plane he will go a long way toward his goal. He has all the time in the world to wipe the rest of water from the face of the earth and slowly purge this addiction from the planet, either though rings of substance or Leading people to a truly enlightened form of undead.

So how do i Destroy the Elemental Plane of water?.......

Thing is, that my DM lacks creativity and tends to follow ripped off story's plot lines and probably wont help me. Leaving me to Come up with it on my own. I've read a lot of other boards and discussions on destroying the earth, sun, and other extreme similar circumstances, but none solve my dilemma. Even Broken and outright Cheese offers extremely little. Destroying infinity is seeming to be impossible without dm fiat.

Any help or suggestions would be nice.
Notes:
-all official books are ok. Also Dragon Mag, BoEF, and beyond monk.
-Rules must be reasonable. No extreme stretching(but moderate is OK)
-Science is ok, even if not raw. Dm is engineer. its why we don't let him play characters anymore.
-The water needs to be Completely destroyed or inaccessible. Time of completion is unimportant.
-Ask me any questions...

Sith_Happens

2013-11-11, 06:46 AM

Thing is, that my DM lacks creativity and tends to follow ripped off story's plot lines and probably wont help me.

Go to the largest library in the campaign world and tell him you're researching whether there's some powerful artifact lost to the bowels of time that could accomplish such a feat. If he doesn't take the bait, it means his DM bone is broken and he needs to be put down.

Alleran

2013-11-11, 06:52 AM

I'm not sure that it can be done short of Overdeity powers, since even epic magic is limited by range/area (while the Elemental Plane of Water is infinite, AFAIK), IIRC. Would your character settle for permanently destroying as many ways of getting there (or all ways) instead?

nedz

2013-11-11, 06:56 AM

Sith_Happens

2013-11-11, 07:04 AM

Mirror Move (If I've remembered the name correctly)
It's a spell which uses a reflecting object as a material component — use the surface of the water.

The Plane of Water maybe has a surface if you can find a structure with an air pocket.

Tebryn

2013-11-11, 07:06 AM

Dust of Dryness. A lot of it.

Melcar

2013-11-11, 07:09 AM

I dont think that it is possible to remove one of the fore basic elements of the multivers. Doing that I believe will unravel reality itself. But again... Up to the dm.

I will say though, that since its infinite that alone should make it impossible. The plane og water expands with an ever increasing speed, thus making an exponential more amount of water this second compared to the last second.

I would say no. You cant destroy it.

NichG

2013-11-11, 07:12 AM

You might have better luck separating your prime world from having access to it, e.g. whatever effect Athas has that blocks it from the outer planes, but for the inner planes instead.

Destroying an outer plane, even an infinite one, is something you could do by altering the alignment of each of its layers (which can be done by a finite number of individuals, interestingly enough - the same way that the Harmonium caused a layer of Arcadia to fall to Mechanus). For an inner plane though, they tend to be much more 'substance-based' rather than 'belief-based' so you're going to be tangling directly with those infinities.

Mathematically, you need a continuous process that grows like the square of its current value (or faster) to get a finite-time singularity. If you could someone build a spell engine using e.g. Energy Transformation Field such that the number of copies of a spell effect grew like N^2, that nearly does it (except that its not a continuous process so it wouldn't really hit infinity). The best I know how to construct has a growth rate that goes like N though (ETF to summon lantern archons to power the ETF to summon more lantern archons...), so you just get exponential growth, not singular growth.

Also, destroying the elemental plane of water would surely end the campaign and, more or less, the cosmology, so logically it shouldn't be something that is 'easy' to do, and you can basically expect to fail once anything with divination powers get even an inkling that you could possibly succeed. Basically all living creatures everywhere with water-based bodies would just cease, which would then spiral outwards to create all sorts of other problems for the outer planes, while at the same time who knows what would happen with the sudden void of power in the inner planes (for one thing, now you have a lot of orphaned quasi- and para-elemental planes).

MrNobody

2013-11-11, 07:18 AM

Instead of destroning it (nice goal, but very very very hard to do without being a deity) you coul try to remove its influence from the material plane.
Take inspiration form Eberron's history: in the long war with Dal quor, homeplane of the Quori race, Giant discovered a powerful spell and destroyed the connection between Dal Quor and the material plane.
Your character could work on a similar idea, maybe searching for that event in ancient libraries and suggestin to yoyr DM a travel to Xen'drik (the continent home of the ancient giants in Eberron) to find how to recreate the spell that was used to nearly destroy Dal Quor and part it from Eberron.

molten_dragon

2013-11-11, 07:19 AM

How exactly do you mean 'destroy'? Does the plane need to actually no longer exist? Or would poisoning the water so nothing can live there, or maybe boiling it or something work?

There are no ways that I know of to destroy an infinite plane which are strictly within the rules. However, if you have a sympathetic DM, you can probably come up with something.

For example, you could try using True Creation to create a black hole to swallow the elemental plane of water. The spell reads:

The caster creates a nonmagical, unattended object of any sort of matter. Items created are permanent and cannot be negated by dispelling magics or negating powers. For all intents and purposes, these items are completely real. The volume of the item created cannot exceed 1 cubic foot per caster level. The caster must succeed at an appropriate skill check to make a complex item.

A black hole is non-magical, it is unattended, and it is made of matter. The only limit on what the spell can create is volume, no limits on mass or density. So create something dense enough at the maximum volume the spell allows and then let it collapse into a singularity. The only problem you might run into is making the skill check to make a complex item, but there's probably a way around that. This is completely within RAW, but probably breaks RAI pretty badly. And if your DM allows this to work, you can actually create a bunch of these to make it go faster.

Another option would be to see if you can talk your DM into letting you use the Antigenesis version of the psionic power genesis on the plane of water rather than the material plane. It's not RAW, but it's not that much of a stretch either. Your two biggest issues there are going to be that it grows extremely slowly (1 foot per day) and maxes out at 1 foot per manifester level. If you could find a way to make it grow faster, and remove the size cap, that could maybe work.

Another option would be to somehow create an enormous gate or rift between the elemental plane of water and the elemental plane of fire. It wouldn't really destroy all the water, but it would boil it away.

That's all I can think of at the moment, but if I come up with something else I'll post it.

Brookshw

2013-11-11, 07:38 AM

Not actually possible but fiat away :smallbiggrin:

Mnemnosyne

2013-11-11, 07:43 AM

Destroying an outer plane, even an infinite one, is something you could do by altering the alignment of each of its layers (which can be done by a finite number of individuals, interestingly enough - the same way that the Harmonium caused a layer of Arcadia to fall to Mechanus). For an inner plane though, they tend to be much more 'substance-based' rather than 'belief-based' so you're going to be tangling directly with those infinities.
Even causing all the current layers to slide elsewhere wouldn't destroy the plane, because the plane itself remains and a new layer would just form, either spontaneously and immediately, or eventually.

An outer plane might, theoretically, be destroyed if you could get every creature in the multiverse to completely deny or denounce that alignment such that there is, for instance, no more Lawful Evil thought anywhere in the multiverse. With no more Lawful Evil thought, Baator ceases to exist.

As far as destroying the plane of water? Nope, impossible, as others have said, closest possible (and only remotely, at that) thing would be what others have said about disconnecting it from your crystal sphere.

What effects this would have on reality, though.....

TheDarkDM

2013-11-11, 07:46 AM

Or, you know, accept that your character is a dangerously delusional madman who is doomed to never succeed. It's not like that makes the character any less interesting; exactly the opposite, in fact.

Also, the DM not allowing a mortal to destroy one of the six basic building blocks of the universe isn't a DM being broken, that's a DM who's invested in maintaining even a hint of verisimilitude.

Fouredged Sword

2013-11-11, 07:58 AM

Allowing him to destroy a fundamental building block of reality is something that is fine for a DM to prevent.

Allowing him to TRY? If the dm tries to stop that, then all hope is lost.

AzureKnight

2013-11-11, 08:17 AM

Though I can see n plyable way of doing so, here are a few ideas to kick around.

1. Conjure a portal to this universe and have obsene amounts of jello thrown into the portal transforming it to a jello plane, not to be confused with the jelly plane as Bill Cosby frowns upon this. Next add a portal to the plane of starving children, ie they eat said jello universe destroyed.

2. Opem a gate to the plane of steam and allow the water plane to feed into it and make it super charged, also may be able to add lots of instant mashed potatoes and gravy, after all holidays are right around the corner and who doesnt like mashed potatoes and gravy.

3. Find large amounts of sponges to enlarge to colossal size to absorb the plane and add some cleaner too it and create the elemental plane of windex.

Talderas

2013-11-11, 08:28 AM

You have a couple of options.

1. Destroy the Elemental Plane of Water.
2. Destroy the Astral Plane.
3. Destroy the Material Plane.
4. Destroy all portal links in the Elemental Plane of Water.
5. Destroy all portal links on the material plane.
6. Destroy the multiverse.

Options 1, 2, 3 and 6 absolutely remove influence. Options 4 and 5 may or may not since while you destroy permanent portals and permits the construction of new portals.

Stux

2013-11-11, 08:31 AM

Yeah there's not going to be a RAW way to do this. Not without a LOT of cheese.

Throwing some more cheese out there: build an epic diplomancer and find a deity who is somehow unable to resist your charms to do your dirty work for you.

Ortesk

2013-11-11, 08:39 AM

AzureKnight

2013-11-11, 08:39 AM

I will have to do some research to find the source but, I do recall a d20 spell compenddium with a 10th level spell called create plane. It has a 120 million gp cost, 700k exp cost and a casting time of 1000 years. In the description it said that the spell is reversable ie a destroy plane spell. Sadly enough it is a non homebrewed spell, and d20 approved.

nedz

2013-11-11, 08:45 AM

Stux

2013-11-11, 08:51 AM

Why epic? Level 10 would work

I meant epic in the more colloquial sense, should have been clearer really! Though you do still have to get to the god haha.

Blackjackg

2013-11-11, 08:52 AM

I'm surprised by the large number of people saying "Nope, can't be done," and dusting off their hands. It's a fantasy roleplaying game, anything is possible with sufficient power and planning. Unless the DM says it's not, of course.

Assuming your DM doesn't give you a flat no, and given a fairly standard D&D cosmology, I would say that it be a feat requiring some pretty epic, god-level alchemy and probably some major interplanar wars. Basically, you need to redraft the alchemical blueprint of the multiverse.

At the moment Water holds a polar position opposite Fire and between Air and Earth, keeping everything balanced and checked. If you wanted to keep the basic four-element structure of the multiverse, you'd have to replace water with some other element. An obvious choice might be Oil, but that's less an opposite of Fire than it is fuel... Maybe Mercury. Once you got started on the epic magicks required to realign the multiverse, you'd probably have a lot of very angry Water Gods and marids and whatnot trying to mess you up, so then we get into the aforementioned interplanar wars as the denizens of the new Plane of Mercury protect you from the ravaging hordes of water.

Alternatively (and this is my favorite of the ideas I've had so far), do what you need to do to have the elements of Ice and Ooze squeeze Water out and make a new five-element system (maybe aligned like MtG, with two opposed elements each: Air vs. Earth & Ooze; Ice vs. Fire & Earth; Ooze vs. Air & Fire; Earth vs. Ice & Air; Fire vs. Ice & Ooze). That way you don't have to make a whole new plane with denizens to fight for you, you just need to convince the denizens of the existing demielemental planes that they're better off getting rid of water and becoming their own thing. Plus epic magicks, of course. In the old days, of course, you could have utilized the quasielemental planes of Steam and Salt, but they're gone now.

It may be possible just to axe water and continue on with a three-element system, but that would be tricky because then you'd be on your own against all the gods and elementals who are worried about losing their home and their power (and really, their existence).

In any case, it must also be recognized that whatever option you take would have some pretty major effects on the nature of reality as well, not least the destruction of thousands of species. Life itself may become more or less unrecognizable as humans have to transform to accommodate having mercury or ooze running through their veins. Cool beans for a sand dragon, a real bummer for a jellyfish.

And of course any DM would be well within her rights to say that it's either impossible within the cosmology or just way outside the scope or power level of the campaign. But if it were going to happen, that's how I think it would look.

Eldan

2013-11-11, 08:54 AM

Well, it's infinitely large in 3+ dimensions. You are not going to do it with classic methods. If your DM doesn't throw you a plot token, I don't see how. It would be easier to separate your home planet.

Xuldarinar

2013-11-11, 08:56 AM

Find a way to construct a new Vast Gate, but on the elemental plane of water (or find the original, take it there, and turn it on). After it's activation, the plane itself becomes corrupted by the far-realm, and certainly water will pour out of the great wheel. Even if the gate is shut off, which every effort may be made to and every effort should be made to prevent, cerebotic blots could begin to appear on the plane itself, corrupting it further for you.

Once it is warped enough, perhaps the great wheel will begin to treat the plane of water as a cyst, blocking it off from the rest of the wheel or even removing it from itself entirely as it is digested and further warped by the madness that lies beyond. In time, the plane itself may no longer be recognizable, perhaps growing to become more like the far-realm's Amoebic Sea. If it remains where it is, maybe you will wind up with something like an Elemental Plane of Protoplasm.

Keneth

2013-11-11, 08:56 AM

Is destroying a plane impossible?

Hardly, you just need a strong enough explosive to depressurize it at high altitude.

Oh, we're not talking about aircraft? Huh.

Ortesk

2013-11-11, 08:57 AM

I meant epic in the more colloquial sense, should have been clearer really! Though you do still have to get to the god haha.

By level 10, not an issue. By then you can get people helpful on a whim. Then just ask to borrow the +30 diplomacy items for your important quest. By RAW, there do it. Within 3 people, its auto fanatics. Get all the bonuses the dms guide allows. Should put you around 4-500. Then talk a cleric into taking you to his god, the god into taking you to the over diety, the over diety into destroying water, and also stop twilight from being a thing

Stux

2013-11-11, 08:58 AM

you'd be on your own against all the gods and elementals who are worried about losing their home and their power (and really, their existence).

A very good point. Any deity with a vested interest in the plane of water and with water in their portfolio will be aware of what you are doing and will try to stop it. You better be prepared to fight some gods!

Incorrect

2013-11-11, 09:01 AM

You hate water. How do you feel about steam?
Although not exactly destroying the plane of water; an option could be to raise the temperature of the entire material plane to above 100 degrees. This should evaporate all that nasty water (and potentially lay waste to everything build on top of underground water reservoirs, as the steam rapidly expands)

I think cutting the connection between the planes, or in some other way removing all water from the material plane is more realistic less unrealistic

Traab

2013-11-11, 09:04 AM

Find a way to connect the plane of water to the plane of cement mix and cheese it to make a near infinite number of portals. The plane still exists, but its no longer water, its cement. Thats just one silly example of ways to combine two planes so they obliterate each other. Find a way to slam the plane of fire into it and its no longer the plane of water, its the plane of perpetual steam. Open an exit portal (or many billions of portals) to the plane of air and allow the plane of steam to disperse.

Kitbix

2013-11-11, 09:05 AM

Wow..

Thank you all for your quick and thoughtful responses.

To those of you who have claimed at its impossibility, I fully understand the....Complications of this request, and My character is fully aware at the close to or rather most likely reality that this task is impossible. So far he (in campaign) has only been ridiculed.

I have weighed the options presented to me thus far and like the idea of simply blocking all connections to the plane of water. It solves my goal, and Doesn't involve unbalancing the universe.

Poisoning the water only works if its ALL the water and it stays poisoned.

OH, And i fully hope my Dm does try to stop me in game. but not at the TRY level.

Wow... more updates while i typed this up. I'll keep reading. Any more ideas are still appreciated

Talderas

2013-11-11, 09:05 AM

Studoku

2013-11-11, 09:09 AM

Self resetting trap making Self resetting traps of Transmute Water to Cheese (which it then also teleports to a random location on the plane) should do it, in an infinite amount of time. This is only a polynomial (quadratic) progression.

Finding some way of merging the Elemental Planes of Water and Fire is also a traditional approach.
Surely the best way would be a self resetting trap of transmute water to self resting trap of transmute water. The magical tippyverse equivalent of grey goo.

Xuldarinar

2013-11-11, 09:12 AM

Personally, I favor my idea to destroy the entire multiverse. I would settle for destroying planar travel by destroying the astral plane though you probably would also want to destroy the shadow and ethereal just in case.

My idea likely would accomplish that, but the focus was the plane of water. Just feed it to the far-realm.

Maybe have an adventure where the character seeks out the vast gate, or at least what remains of it, and tries to take it to the plane of water before activating it once more, and this time keeping it open.

Stux

2013-11-11, 09:20 AM

Surely the best way would be a self resetting trap of transmute water to self resting trap of transmute water. The magical tippyverse equivalent of grey goo.

Ooh ooh! I've got one!

Learn to cast Ice Assassin. Create an Ice Assassin of yourself. Send it to the ocean and have it create Ice Assassins using the water to make the ice sculpture for the material component. Have the Ice Assassins keep making more and more Ice Assassins until you have used up all the water on the material plane. Then march the Ice Assassins in to sphere of annihilation. Keep enough around to deal with any more water entering the material plane from the plane of water.

The only other things you will need is arbitrarily large amount of gold and a way to give your ice assassins an arbitrarily large amount of XP.

Eldan

2013-11-11, 09:24 AM

The problem with a lot of these methods:

You have a certain rate of converting Water to Other Substance X. The problem is, no fast that rate, you will never convert an infinite amount of water.

You need to solve this from a metaphysical level.

Ortesk

2013-11-11, 09:27 AM

Is there a grey mold for water? The old joke on destroying the world was if you dropped grey mold in a volcano, it would spread through the lava into the core and so on. Now is there a way to 1) Stop the water from coming, even if your sitting upon Near infinite water. And 2) Destroy it at such a rate it will happen in your life

Necroticplague

2013-11-11, 09:43 AM

I'm going to throw my lot in with "open portals to the plane of fire while in the plane of water". The only thing that could logically destroy something infinite is something that is also infinite, but the opposite. Fortunately, The Plane of Fire is exactly such a thing to the Plane of Water. I don't know what setting your in, but I know one setting had a lot of spells and feats related to opening portals you could use to accomplish this. Of course, the downside is that not only would the plane of water be destroyed by this interaction, but so would the plane of fire. This would have some very drastic effects on the material, as everything dries and desiccates while things cease to be hot (though thanks to the plane of radiance, they still give off light).

Although I do have to wonder, for the plan involving opening a gate to the FR, how would that effect portfolios of related gods? Would they lose power as their "water" portfolio is no longer supported by cosmology, or would that portfolio be corrupted like the plane was (thus, gods of water are now gods of protoplasm)?

Or, one could use the same portal-related abilities to cut all ties from the elemental plane of water to the outside. The problem with this would be keeping it that way. Even if you cut all the ties, someone else could just re-open them. So to make this sustainable, you must first kill every other spellcaster in the setting to make sure that they don't undo your work.Still has the problem of things drying out, but now at least you aren't also losing the plane of fire as well.

Talderas

2013-11-11, 10:01 AM

I'm going to throw my lot in with "open portals to the plane of fire while in the plane of water". The only thing that could logically destroy something infinite is something that is also infinite, but the opposite.

Actually no.

What you're attempting to do is perform the mathematical equation of (Infinity - Infinity). This is one of the few infinity maths that is undefined. The only way that would work is if the EPoW and the EPoF are exactly the same size which is impossible as doing so would make them finite without some other ad hoc declaration that they are infinite but identically sized.

All the methods which are finite in effect are not going to succeed at destroying the plane. That's just the nature of infinity.

asnys

2013-11-11, 10:35 AM

Could you find some way to harness another infinite plane against the Elemental Plane of Water? For example, if you could somehow communicate with everyone in the Elemental Plane of Fire and diplomance them into joining your unholy crusade by opening portals into the Plane of Water. This is distinct from just opening portals yourself, since you can personally only open a finite number of portals.

Rubik

2013-11-11, 10:48 AM

Surely the best way would be a self resetting trap of transmute water to self resting trap of transmute water. The magical tippyverse equivalent of grey goo.This was my idea.

Either try creating a self-resetting Wish trap that produces a self-resetting Wish trap that produces a self-resetting Wish trap that produces a self-resetting Wish trap of some spell that will destroy or transmute the water (into something which itself absorbs and destroys water to speed up the process even further), or produce a similar trap that produces a line of traps of, say, Suggestion on everything on the Material Plane to convince everyone to shun and hate water. Even better if you can get around pesky things like magic immunity (Supernatural Spell!) and immunity to mind-affecting effects (dread witch for a fear effect, maybe?).

It'll lead to geometric growth of the resulting traps, which should scale fast enough to destroy the plane eventually.

Traab

2013-11-11, 10:50 AM

I have your epic quest of a lifetime. Portals open holes between planes. They provide a temporary or at times permanent free flow of traffic between them. What if you were to research a way to make the effect of a portal viral? Meaning, the portal just keeps opening wider and wider and wider, dissolving the barriers between the planes. Like a virus it will expand exponentially. It will not be a fast fix, but in the end, the barrier to the entire plane of water will be destroyed, and if you do it right, you actually CAN create that merging of the infinite elemental planes. Or, find a way to dump the entire plane into the emptiness between planes. (Is there such a thing?)

AlltheBooks

2013-11-11, 10:50 AM

Well there are the paraelemental planes so the steam thing already exists. All factors are still there so... Besides how does infinite fire cancel infinite water?

Also the elemental plane of water affects other planes. It becomes the Styx and other bodies of water in other notable planes (the one in celestia for one can't remember name). The denizens won't/may be happy with an alteration. That good be fun/bad. Wee!

These have been mentioned wanted reiterate. Just seal of your world best bet of getting away with it. Or move to Athas.

SiuiS

2013-11-11, 10:57 AM

You're going about it wrong. You don't need to destroy water, just remove it from the multiverse!

You need to go to Mechanus, wherein there is an orrery that divines the movement of the planes. In truth, this is the spoke about which the mechanisms of existence turn. Study it, and use that knowledge to break the elemental plane of water and send it's orbit off to a different part of creation, like that nightmare plane in Eberron. Once adrift, it will be functionally removed from the great wheel and no longer part of your cosmology, which is the same as destroyig all water but also has the possibility of epic quests to restore the plane, which should appeal to the DM more.

NichG

2013-11-11, 11:03 AM

The thing with infinity is that exponential growth isn't going to cut it, or even super-exponential growth. If you have something that consumes water at a rate of exp(exp(t)), it will still take an infinite amount of time to consume all of the Elemental Plane of Water. It's 'no better' than being a true immortal and destroying one teaspoon of water every day, in the sense that both will take an infinite amount of time to conclude.

Furthermore, planar mixing things suffer the problem that even if you had an infinite 2D wall of portals somehow, the rate of mixing at best goes like L^2 whereas the volume of the plane goes like L^3, so time required for the planes to mix goes like L - which is infinite.

As another poster said, metaphysics is the answer.

Alternately, I suppose you could convince your DM to allow Immortals Handbook. In which case there are literal creatures whose bodies are the various planes, and so you can follow the road to become something like that and kill the one for Water.

AzureKnight

2013-11-11, 11:12 AM

Stux

2013-11-11, 11:18 AM

After thinking on this a while seriously, grab yourself a great number of spheres of annialation put them through the portal to the plane and you have an infinate draining effect that fades away into a series of blackholes.

It might be an infinite effect, but it will still take an infinite amount of time to drain an infinite amount of water.

However, you could always appeal to the DM in some fashion. Is the plane of water actually infinite in a mathematical sense that the water extends eternally in all directions? Or is it infinite in the way we think of our universe: constantly expanding in all directions without limit. If it is the latter then an effect that grows fast enough will eventually overtake it. As your DM is an engineer, and therefore a scientist of sorts, he may like the second explanation.

satorian

2013-11-11, 11:22 AM

I think the OP is wise to go the cut off the portals method. Though the only problem with this is that someone else could just reattach them later. Even if there aren't any other high level spellcaster who could just Gate or otherwise open portals, every single non-undead god would just immediately reopen the portals. Or, since a complete lack of water would affect their domains, all of them, they would go back in time to before you did whatever you were going to do and destroy you. So, er, to do this you have to defend yourself from dozens of deities attacking you at once.

As to destruction:

First, any idea that uses arithmetic, geometric or exponential growth, i.e. resetting spawning traps, diplomancing denizens, etc. will not work. Exponential growth will not reach infinity in a finite amount of time. That's just not how infinity works.

Unless you somehow force the plane of fire to occupy the exact same space as the plane of water, the portal method will not work. Even an infinite number portals between the two planes would cause a leaking composed of a smaller infinity than the growth of the planes would replace. This is the same as the set of all integers being a smaller infinity than the set of reals between 0 and 1. All you would do with portals is create sort of plane of steam colonies evenly spaced throughout both of the planes. Neither plane, though, would be any smaller. Because infinity.

Also, destruction runs into the same problem with gods smacking you down.

As to how you should TRY to do it. See if you can get a hide-from-gods MacGuffin artifact. Then maybe extend its power to your whole crystal sphere. Then cut your sphere off.

Really the god thing bothers me. Many fantasy plots are rendered impossible by the power of gods to see through and affect things throughout time. Still, unless you change the rules, any plot that would destroy a god can only be carried out by something with godlike power. Any plot that would destroy lots of gods could only be carried out by overgod-like power.

asnys

2013-11-11, 11:28 AM

Furthermore, planar mixing things suffer the problem that even if you had an infinite 2D wall of portals somehow, the rate of mixing at best goes like L^2 whereas the volume of the plane goes like L^3, so time required for the planes to mix goes like L - which is infinite.

My thinking is, it is a plausible assumption that there is a bijection between points in the Elemental Plane of Water (EPoW) and Elemental Plane of Fire (EPoF). (Other planes can be substituted for EPoF as desired.) There is a non-zero density of creatures capable of opening planes from the EPoF to the EPoW in the EPoF. Communicate with all of them somehow and diplomance them into opening portals.

I will assume without loss of generality that the EPoW can be modeled as R3. Number all your portal openers. There is a bijection between the natural numbers and Q3 (three-dimensional rationals). Using this bijection, we can open a countable dense set of portals in the uncountable set that is the EPoW. Every portal effects some open set around itself, and an open set containing Q3 is necessarily all of R3. Problem solved.

This is still not possible by RAW, but it substitutes a problem of infinite communication/persuasion for a problem of infinite destruction/portal opening, which seems more tractable.

Stux

2013-11-11, 11:32 AM

Aren't you also making an assumption that there are an infinite number of denizens of the elemental planes. Is that so?

asnys

2013-11-11, 11:33 AM

Aren't you also making an assumption that there are an infinite number of denizens of the elemental planes. Is that so?

I'm making the assumption that the planes are, with the exception of a limited number of unique points, approximately homogenous overall. So yes, I'm assuming that. I believe that is true, but I'm not super-familiar with the planar fluff.

Edit to Add: To elaborate, this idea requires that:

If I take a walk on the Elemental Plane of Fire, there is a possibly very low but non-zero probability I will encounter someone.

There is a very low but non-zero probability that someone will be capable of opening portals.

There is a very low but non-zero probability I will be able to convince that someone to join this project.

And there is some way to communicate with, persuade, and coordinate all of these highly improbable but infinitely many someones simultaneously.

NichG

2013-11-11, 12:03 PM

The model I tend to use when running infinite planes (note: no RAW support for this) is that they are composed of a finite number of 'interesting' locations each separated by an infinite expanse of homogeneous 'unformated' locations, combined with the ability of sentient beings to employ perceptual rather than physical travel.

Concretely, what this means is that if you go to a city on the plane of air and start spooling out infinite rope, you can never 'connect' that city with any other location of interest on the plane of air because the rope tethers you to the perceptual framework of the interesting spot you started in. But, someone else could effectively traverse that rope very quickly by moving away from it until it was out of sight, then moving towards the city.

This kind of model is basically needed to avoid Olbers' Paradox issues with having a finite density of denizens/energy emission/what have you, while at the same time allowing for random encounters. Random encounters are basically people 'snapping' to the nearest interesting feature, e.g. other travelers.

The computer game analogy would be something like Minecraft - its a procedural world, so everything that has not been touched by a player is precisely defined by a single algorithm - its basically 'empty' and does not propagate effects out of its boundaries. Only areas that have been touched by a player (sentient entity) are able to emit travelers/signals/whatever into the bulk of the plane.

So I guess, under this analogy, the answer would be 'go to Mechanus and find the source-code for the homogeneous sections of the Plane of Water, and rewrite it'.

Traab

2013-11-11, 12:28 PM

I still think my exponential border destroying portal/virus thing has a chance to work. Think of the plane of water as a balloon. The air is inside that balloon. But if the entire border containing it where to vanish, then the air would still exist, but it would disperse itself in the greater infinite of space around it. Maybe using the word border is wrong, but look at it like this. If the planes are infinite, and they all exist, that means there is something that keeps them from bumping into each other. Remove that thing that keeps them separate and something wondrously insane should happen.

Fax Celestis

2013-11-11, 12:47 PM

Tippyverse answer: self-resetting trap of gate, creating a gate to the Elemental Plane of Fire. Put the trap on the back of something that moves very quickly throughout the Elemental Plane of Water and sets off the trap often (maybe something like a separate self-resetting trap or use-activated pair of boots of the flicker mystery or greater teleport with a random destination). Make sure it's immune to fire (there are various means of doing this, so I'm not going to list one here).

Now ice assassin/simulacrum that sucker a bunch of times to get functional equivalents, equip them identically, and set your army free on the plane of water.

If gate isn't your style, you can use a CL-pumped dispel water (Sandstorm) (or both!), using the first option for it:

Dry Up Water: This effect instantly destroys 200 cubic feet of water per level. Remaining water rushes in to fill the void.
200 cuft/level at, say, CL 20 is 4000 cuft, or a 40' x 10' x 10' volume. Ask your DM if Widen would apply here (RAW, no, but worth a shot). Still, 4000 cuft/6 sec is 666.666... (lol) cuft/sec, or about 5000 gallons a second.

You can get the exponential version of this if you can somehow create a creature or race that has dispel water at will and can make copies of itself rapidly. Maybe an intelligent item?

Big Fau

2013-11-11, 12:48 PM

If you can find it and find a way to transport it, awakening the Leviathan [Elder Evils] on the EPoW will destroy it completely (assuming you can prevent someone from putting it back to sleep).

nedz

2013-11-11, 12:51 PM

Pickford

2013-11-11, 12:58 PM

Find the Plug
Remove it

There are several dubious tricks, such as:

Go to Elemental plane of Water
Get wet
Iron Heart Surge away the cause of the wetness

Mirror Move (If I've remembered the name correctly)
It's a spell which uses a reflecting object as a material component — use the surface of the water.

More seriously:
There is an infinite amount of water on the elemental plane.
Destroying a finite amount of water for a finite time isn't going to do it.

Presumably the only way is to become a deity capable of altering reality such that there is no elemental plane of water...of course this would probably put you at odds with all forms of life...

Also IHS ends the 'effect', not the source. That's like saying you IHS away a spell and the caster disappears.

nedz

2013-11-11, 01:19 PM

Also IHS ends the 'effect', not the source. That's like saying you IHS away a spell and the caster disappears.

Also IHS has a range of personal — hence my use of the word dubious.

Talderas

2013-11-11, 01:35 PM

Like it or not, the problems presented by infinite are such that the only way you're going to be able to "destroy" the EPoW is circumvention that destroys it in its entirety rather than piece by piece or isolates the EPoW in such a way that no creature or entity can reach it or leave it.

Fax Celestis

2013-11-11, 01:38 PM

Obviously what you need to do, then, is create an epic version of sequester that targets a plane instead of a volume.

Because if you can't destroy the source of sin, at least you can quarantine it.

molten_dragon

2013-11-11, 01:43 PM

First, any idea that uses arithmetic, geometric or exponential growth, i.e. resetting spawning traps, diplomancing denizens, etc. will not work. Exponential growth will not reach infinity in a finite amount of time. That's just not how infinity works.

You need a method that exhibits hyperbolic growth, and then you can destroy an infinite plane in finite time.

I'm not sure exactly what that would be though. I have a suspicion that a black hole might work, but I can't figure out how to do the calculations.

Edit: Although now that I think about it, with no mass limit on True Creation, you could just create an infinite-mass black hole to start with. It would then have an infinite Schwarzschild radius, and goodbye EPoW.

Vexxation

2013-11-11, 01:59 PM

If gate isn't your style, you can use a CL-pumped dispel water (Sandstorm) (or both!), using the first option for it:

200 cuft/level at, say, CL 20 is 4000 cuft, or a 40' x 10' x 10' volume. Ask your DM if Widen would apply here (RAW, no, but worth a shot). Still, 4000 cuft/6 sec is 666.666... (lol) cuft/sec, or about 5000 gallons a second.

You can get the exponential version of this if you can somehow create a creature or race that has dispel water at will and can make copies of itself rapidly. Maybe an intelligent item?

This is actually likely a viable approach - at least in the face of an "expanding infinite" Plane of Water - that is, one where the boundary constantly grows to accommodate an observer moving.

The key is the bit where surrounding water rushes in to fill the void. If you crated a tetrahedral structure, or really any large three-dimensional grid, of these dispel water-ing objects/creatures, then you'll create areas within the elemental plane that act as eternal sinks. All the water in the grid rushes to the nearest sink to be destroyed.

Do this enough and eventually you're looking at empty voids surrounding sink nodes, and any additional water is immediately pulled in.

Now, consider the boundary conditions for this effect:

We're looking at a localized spheroid of "dry" in the elemental plane, surrounded by the vast infinities of water out there.

By virtue of the dispel water spell, the rest of the plane contracts around the pocket to try to fill the void. So if we're looking at an "expanding infinity," well, it just started contracting. And if anyone goes really far out and sees more water, it's still going to contract toward the dry zone.

So, given sufficient time, one could fill an arbitrarily large volume of the plane with sink nodes. Say, a sphere Graham's number (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graham's_number) of nodes in every direction? This would occupy a space so vast that there probably isn't a mind out there capable of comprehending it. We're talking Cthulhu-level incomprehensibility.

Would it truly destroy the plane? No. It'd still be there, and if you could wrap your head around how big the empty pocket is, you could teleport past it and get some water.

But you can't comprehend it.
Nobody can.

And it's still growing. Always, and forever.

RoyVG

2013-11-11, 02:01 PM

1. Find a Waste Crawler (Sandstorm, pg 191)
2. Transport it to Elemental Plane of Water
3. Have it cast Global Warming (Epic Spell as a SLA that can be used 1/century, Sandstorm, pg 130)
4. Congratulations, you have now turned the Elemental Plane of Water into the Plane of Steam.

Eldan

2013-11-11, 02:02 PM

So, rules abuse. Is there a spell anywhere that affects a "body of liquid" or somesuch, without giving a volume or weight limit?

Doesn't even matter much what the effect is, as the locate city bomb shows us, you can pretty much add any effect to any spell.

molten_dragon

2013-11-11, 02:21 PM

This is actually likely a viable approach - at least in the face of an "expanding infinite" Plane of Water - that is, one where the boundary constantly grows to accommodate an observer moving.

The key is the bit where surrounding water rushes in to fill the void. If you crated a tetrahedral structure, or really any large three-dimensional grid, of these dispel water-ing objects/creatures, then you'll create areas within the elemental plane that act as eternal sinks. All the water in the grid rushes to the nearest sink to be destroyed.

Do this enough and eventually you're looking at empty voids surrounding sink nodes, and any additional water is immediately pulled in.

Now, consider the boundary conditions for this effect:

We're looking at a localized spheroid of "dry" in the elemental plane, surrounded by the vast infinities of water out there.

By virtue of the dispel water spell, the rest of the plane contracts around the pocket to try to fill the void. So if we're looking at an "expanding infinity," well, it just started contracting. And if anyone goes really far out and sees more water, it's still going to contract toward the dry zone.

So, given sufficient time, one could fill an arbitrarily large volume of the plane with sink nodes. Say, a sphere Graham's number (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graham's_number) of nodes in every direction? This would occupy a space so vast that there probably isn't a mind out there capable of comprehending it. We're talking Cthulhu-level incomprehensibility.

Would it truly destroy the plane? No. It'd still be there, and if you could wrap your head around how big the empty pocket is, you could teleport past it and get some water.

But you can't comprehend it.
Nobody can.

And it's still growing. Always, and forever.

A simpler way to do it, and probably no more abusive of the rules, is simply to pump your caster level to an infinite number and then cast dispel water.

asnys

2013-11-11, 02:26 PM

A simpler way to do it, and probably no more abusive of the rules, is simply to pump your caster level to an infinite number and then cast dispel water.

All of the infinite-loop CL tricks I'm aware of only make your caster level "as high as you want it", not "infinite". E.g., as I understand it cosmic descryer + immunity to damage lets you make your CL a zillion jillion gatrillion, but you can't make it actually infinite. Most of the time the difference is irrelevant, but this is not that time.

Eldan

2013-11-11, 02:32 PM

Pun-pun could do it. Just give yourself an ability called "Mine's Bigger (ex): Your caster level is considered to be infinite for all effects and purposes."

Of course, Pun-pun can do everything. Including just "Some like it dry (ex): The Plane of Water does not exist."

NichG

2013-11-11, 02:33 PM

The Descryer thing seems to be sort of an ambiguous case, given that you 'select' the bonus you want, rather than other NI things where its basically 'how many times do you perform a loop that costs some non-zero amount of time per iteration'.

Are there actually rules that when you must 'select' an amount, you have to name a specific number rather than something like 'infinity'?

Edit: Also, on the black hole thing, the problem is that the actual influence of the black hole's gravity would expand outwards at 'merely' the speed of light. And if the speed of light is infinity in D&D, then black holes don't actually exist, so you have ostensibly have other problems.

The other issue of course is that one could argue that the volume of a black hole is the volume of its Schwarzchild sphere, in which case you just hit the volume limitations of the spell before you hit 'infinite mass'. The singularity itself is in unknown physics territory so its also unclear if that reaches an asymptotic density for some exotic reason, which could also put a limit on getting to infinity that way.

Of course, there's the other thing you could do, which is use an exponential process on the Plane of Water and then jump into a black hole that is growing by draining an infinite mass source fast enough to replace its losses via Hawking radiation. If you do that, you'll see an infinite amount of time pass outside the black hole as you cross the event horizon.

asnys

2013-11-11, 02:50 PM

mregecko

2013-11-11, 02:58 PM

It's been a long time since my college Astrophysics classes, but isn't the problem with a flat/infinite universe theory that the density can't be very high otherwise (over time) the universe will collapse back on itself? Not speaking gravitationally, but the actual geometry of the universe collapses on itself.

If that's the case, then increasing the density of the universe will accelerate this collapse, no?

Alternately, you'd could to either convince whatever Overdeity created the cosmos to destroy the plane, or supplant the position of said Overdeity.

asnys

2013-11-11, 03:04 PM

I may be misremembering, but doesn't the Elemental Plane of Water have subjective gravity anyway? That would seem to put the kibosh on any shenanigans with astrophysics.

Fax Celestis

2013-11-11, 03:10 PM

You can get the exponential version of this if you can somehow create a creature or race that has dispel water at will and can make copies of itself rapidly. Maybe an intelligent item?

Here we go. Epic Spell: Origin of Species (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/spells/originOfSpeciesAchaierai.htm) should do it. You just need to create a race of 20 HD creatures that gets quickened dispel water and greater teleport at-will. How do we do the fission, you ask?

One more SLA: body outside body, also at will. Since these are SLAs, they're completely usable by the clones created by body outside body.

But Fax! We've run out of actions!

Nope. We're going to make them a choker variation and give them the Quickness ability:

Quickness (Su)
Although not particularly dexterous, a choker is supernaturally quick. It can take an extra standard action or move action during its turn each round.

We can set its CL = HD, like most creatures have, and then we'll also make the race completely made of exemplars, slap Paragon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/paragonCreature.htm) on it for +15 CL: now we're casting at CL 35, for 7000 cuft of water per creature per round, with an additional 7 clones created per creature per round. Sure, the clones only last 10 rounds, but at the end of those 10 rounds, we've made 823,543 clones. Those first 7 will disappear, but the remaining 823,536 clones clone themselves 7 times each for 5,764,752 clones. You'll never run out of creatures, even if you only have one permanent one. But you can keep casting the Origin of Species: Dehydrator spell to make a new permanent base dehydrator clone factory, which means you can basically add an additional 823,543 dehydrators after a minute. All gulping down 7000 cuft of water a round, or 4.31237*10^10 gallons of water per round.

asnys

2013-11-11, 03:28 PM

Here we go. Epic Spell: Origin of Species (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/spells/originOfSpeciesAchaierai.htm) should do it. You just need to create a race of 20 HD creatures that gets quickened dispel water and greater teleport at-will. How do we do the fission, you ask?

One more SLA: body outside body, also at will. Since these are SLAs, they're completely usable by the clones created by body outside body.

Nope. We're going to make them a choker variation and give them the Quickness ability:

We can set its CL = HD, like most creatures have, and then we'll also make the race completely made of exemplars, slap Paragon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/paragonCreature.htm) on it for +15 CL: now we're casting at CL 35, for 7000 cuft of water per creature per round, with an additional 7 clones created per creature per round. Sure, the clones only last 10 rounds, but at the end of those 10 rounds, we've made 823,543 clones. Those first 7 will disappear, but the remaining 823,536 clones clone themselves 7 times each for 5,764,752 clones. You'll never run out of creatures, even if you only have one permanent one. But you can keep casting the Origin of Species: Dehydrator spell to make a new permanent base dehydrator clone factory, which means you can basically add an additional 823,543 dehydrators after a minute. All gulping down 7000 cuft of water a round, or 4.31237*10^10 gallons of water per round.

That is very cool. But you're still using only exponential growth, which means you're destroying exactly 0% of the Elemental Plane of Water per round since it is infinite in volume.

Cruiser1

2013-11-11, 03:30 PM

As others have said, the problem with the methods suggested so far is that they're finite. Even an exponentially growing self-replicating method still is only destroying finite amounts of water, which will never make a hole in infinity. To truly eliminate the plane of water, we need to destroy an infinite amount of water in a finite time and with finite resources.

Fortunately, there are a few truly infinite numbers in D&D! :smallbiggrin: For example, The Omniscificer (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=663.0) gets infinite knowledge checks (truly infinite, and not just limitless or a loop you can repeat as many times as you want). All you need is a custom spell whose range is equal to a knowledge check you make. For an epic spell, that should be a finite ad-hoc DC adjustment. (If you want the range to be equal to a Spellcraft check, I'm sure there's some trick somewhere to convert one skill check into a different skill check.) Anyway, cast your spell using your truly infinite spell check, and you actually remove infinite water, which destroys every last bit of water on the infinite size Plane of Water. :smallcool:

Silva Stormrage

2013-11-11, 03:31 PM

Couldn't a STP Erudite with an infinite action/pp loop get rid of all the water through spammed dispel water? I mean from an outside perspective the Erudite would get rid of all the water in 1 round.

Fax Celestis

2013-11-11, 04:02 PM

That is very cool. But you're still using only exponential growth, which means you're destroying exactly 0% of the Elemental Plane of Water per round since it is infinite in volume.

Sure, but you can make the effective null-water zone so ridiculously huge that it is effectively all gone for the purposes of outside observation.

Oko and Qailee

2013-11-11, 04:04 PM

Dm is engineer. its why we don't let him play characters anymore.

Those tinkerers have ruined many a home!

Lord Haart

2013-11-11, 04:08 PM

Couldn't a STP Erudite with an infinite action/pp loop get rid of all the water through spammed dispel water? I mean from an outside perspective the Erudite would get rid of all the water in 1 round.

Now you finally got me thinking phylosophically. What happens from an outside perspective if an immortal creature creature that can stop time for an arbitrarily large amount of subjective time (including arbitrarily increasing that amount at-will if he feels like he doesn't have enough left) takes upon himself a task to destroy something truly infinite with a teaspoon, so the exit condition of his timestop is never fulfilled? Other than Mechanus going all "Stack overflow" and resetting, of course.

To simplify, what happens from an outside perspective if a "stop time and perform an arbitrarily large amount of actions until X is done" hijinks are initiated where X is both impossible to do and noticeable if it were done (assuming that said hijinks are executed in a way that has no other, explicit or hidden like "the initiator eventually rethinks his idea", exit conditions)? In particular, does an outside observer a second after the hijinks are initiated notice that X is done or that it isn't done (first being impossible and second contradicting the fact that hijinks don't let time to pass until X is done)? I believe that i've read very sound musings on similar questions (but not on this exact one, i think), and i also believe that there are people here who understand the underlying idea well enough to answer (or give a helpful link) sound and square.

Lord Vukodlak

2013-11-11, 04:16 PM

It seems like it be easier to sever the material plane's connection to the elemental plane of water then it would be to actually destroy all the water there.

nedz

2013-11-11, 04:17 PM

Even exponential progressions are too small.

As to this black hole thing.
Light (and darkness too) has a fixed range in 3.5
I think that this creates a different general metric which may not allow for black holes to form. There is no RAW support for them anyway.

asnys

2013-11-11, 04:19 PM

I still like my infinite-portal idea. We could use an infinite-DC Contact epic spell to speak to everyone on the Elemental Plane of Fire, and use the Omniscifier to get the infinite skill check to make it - I'm not sure I'm understanding the Omniscifier correctly, but it looks to me like you could apply it to non-Knowledge skills as well. I think that would work. The problem would be getting the infinite gold to develop the spell...

Sure, but you can make the effective null-water zone so ridiculously huge that it is effectively all gone for the purposes of outside observation.

No, you can't. Run your water-destroyers for a hundred trillion years, then pick a random point in the Elemental Plane of Water. That point will be full of water because your water-destroyers can only effect a finitely-large volume.

Now you finally got me thinking phylosophically. What happens from an outside perspective if an immortal creature creature that can stop time for an arbitrarily large amount of subjective time (including arbitrarily increasing that amount at-will if he feels like he doesn't have enough left) takes upon himself a task to destroy something truly infinite with a teaspoon, so the exit condition of his timestop is never fulfilled? Other than Mechanus going all "Stack overflow" and resetting, of course.

To simplify, what happens from an outside perspective if a "stop time and perform an arbitrarily large amount of actions until X is done" hijinks are initiated where X is both impossible to do and noticeable if it were done (assuming that said hijinks are executed in a way that has no other, explicit or hidden like "the initiator eventually rethinks his idea", exit conditions)? In particular, does an outside observer a second after the hijinks are initiated notice that X is done or that it isn't done (first being impossible and second contradicting the fact that hijinks don't let time to pass until X is done)? I believe that i've read very sound musings on similar questions (but not on this exact one, i think), and i also believe that there are people here who understand the underlying idea well enough to answer (or give a helpful link) sound and square.

My own view is that the hidden conditions - initiator rethinks his idea / dies in bizarre accident / what have you - will eventually get you and abort the loop. At iteration N, the probability you are finished is zero, while the probability the loop is aborted due to hidden conditions is very very small but non-zero, and I don't see any way to completely eliminate hidden conditions. Even if your actor is some kind of construct, immortal and programmed to think about nothing but completing its task, eventually some bizarre coincidence will get it.

druid91

2013-11-11, 04:19 PM

Lord Vukodlak

2013-11-11, 04:25 PM

Even exponential progressions are too small.

As to this black hole thing.
Light (and darkness too) has a fixed range in 3.5

No they don't, the rules say a torch will only illuminate a 20ft radius, which makes sense. A torch won't let you see someone standing half a mile away at midnight. But someone half a mile away could see the torch nothing in the rules prevents that.

Seer_of_Heart

2013-11-11, 04:39 PM

Pun-pun could do it. Just give yourself an ability called "Mine's Bigger (ex): Your caster level is considered to be infinite for all effects and purposes."

Pun-Pun already has a cl of infinity by RAW :smallconfused:. Why are you doing that? You don't even need to resort to Pun-Pun, just get a cl or ML of infinity and get infinite power points. Then you need to use Body outside Body or some other method of cloning yourself. Have your clone manifest temporal acceleration augmented with infinite power points. As long as you have a method of removing at least a tiny bit of water you've now got an infinite amount of water removed. Now you cry because you're left with an undefined amount of water because math with infinity is a pain :smallsigh:. (:smallamused: however, your dm may not know about undefined infinity-infinity situations).

NichG

2013-11-11, 04:47 PM

Fax Celestis

2013-11-11, 04:48 PM

No, you can't. Run your water-destroyers for a hundred trillion years, then pick a random point in the Elemental Plane of Water. That point will be full of water because your water-destroyers can only effect a finitely-large volume.

It depends on whether or not "picking a random point" is truly random. I would venture not, since most planar travelers use plane shift and as such generally end up within 500 miles of a few specific positions. All you have to do is center your dehydrators around those specific points and you end up with everyone who visits the high-traffic zones of the plane thinking that it's become waterless.

Sometimes propaganda is more effective than reality.

Kane0

2013-11-11, 04:51 PM

1. Summon a water elemental
2. Make it hydrophobic. Magic, poison, disease, drug, doesn't matter so long as it's infectious.
3. Release the water elemental back to the plane of water
4. ???
5. Profit!

Edit: Alternatively
1. Create demiplane of sponges
2. Reroute all portals from elemental plane of water to demiplane of sponges.
3. ???
4. Profit!

Oko and Qailee

2013-11-11, 04:52 PM

Pun-Pun already has a cl of infinity by RAW :smallconfused:. Why are you doing that? You don't even need to resort to Pun-Pun, just get a cl or ML of infinity and get infinite power points. Then you need to use Body outside Body or some other method of cloning yourself. Have your clone manifest temporal acceleration augmented with infinite power points. As long as you have a method of removing at least a tiny bit of water you've now got an infinite amount of water removed. Now you cry because you're left with an undefined amount of water because math with infinity is a pain :smallsigh:. (:smallamused: however, your dm may not know about undefined infinity-infinity situations).

This is wrong actually, Pun-pun has a CL of "arbitrarily large" not actually infinity, you can make it as large as you want, but it's still a set value, it's never actually "infinite"

asnys

2013-11-11, 04:53 PM

Using transmutations whose volume scales with CL (PaO) or things that directly destroy water would be better than infinite action hijinks if you have the infinite CL/ML to spare anyhow, since that way it removes the question of whether something in the loop causes you to stop before you hit infinity (which it will) - that thing may be the DM requiring the player to actually 'walk the loop' themselves OOC to narrate each casting of the spell/effect :smallsmile:

Thinking about it some more, I think infinite action loops probably won't work anyway. At step N the remaining water is infinite, so if you let N go to infinity the remaining water will still be infinite. Thus, although you have removed infinite water, the remainder is still infinite.

If you could get legit infinite CL/ML, I think that would work.

It depends on whether or not "picking a random point" is truly random. I would venture not, since most planar travelers use plane shift and as such generally end up within 500 miles of a few specific positions. All you have to do is center your dehydrators around those specific points and you end up with everyone who visits the high-traffic zones of the plane thinking that it's become waterless.

Sometimes propaganda is more effective than reality.

I thought it was only the Outer Planes that had the whole "belief determines reality" thing going on?

Kane0

2013-11-11, 04:54 PM

-Nevermind, not getting involved with all the infinities-

Oko and Qailee

2013-11-11, 04:57 PM

-Nevermind, not getting involved with all the infinities-

The point is, that at any moment, Pun Pun has a CL of a set value X. You can say that value is ABAJILLIONTY KAJILLIONTY, but it's never "infinite". So when Pun-Pun casts dispel water in a location, it still dispels a finite amount that can be as large as you want, but is always a finite amount and is therefore 0% of infinity.

Edit: I'm going to keep this here for clarity as for why Pun Pun CL doesnt work. Pun Pun can, however, make an Ex ability that does it as long as it explicitly dispels infinitely

Xuldarinar

2013-11-11, 05:06 PM

Would removing enough water that no water reaches any portals/boundries/ect., natural or artificial, within the plane work instead? Then you do not need to worry about infinity.

asnys

2013-11-11, 05:08 PM

Would removing enough water that no water reaches any portals/boundries/ect., natural or artificial, within the plane work instead? Then you do not need to worry about infinity.

But there are almost certainly infinitely many portals in the Plane...

Consider: the Plane has a non-zero population density. Of that population, some small percentage are sapient. Of the sapients, some small percentage are spellcasters. Of the spellcasters, some small percentage are powerful enough to create an artificial portal. Of those powerful spellcasters, there is some small probability that they are engaged in making a portal at any given moment. Thus, at any given time, infinitely many portals are being built.

Fax Celestis

2013-11-11, 05:17 PM

I thought it was only the Outer Planes that had the whole "belief determines reality" thing going on?

I didn't say that the Plane of Water did.

Let me put it this way: everyone who flies into LAX exits through the same terminal: it is dingy, dusty, and generally run down. There are muggings, shootings, riots, gangs, etc.

Next door, however, is the renovated LAX terminal that no one uses except for private fliers, and it is shiny and nice and well-kept, with its own security force and a crime rate hovering near zero.

Word-of-mouth is going to spread about LAX being a run-down, generally-terrible place to be, even though if you have the right connections or information, you can get the prestigious track.

Same holds true here: if everyone who visits the Plane of Water comes back saying "THERE'S THESE GIANT DEHYDRATOR WHALES EVERYWHERE, SUCKING DOWN THOUSANDS OF GALLONS OF WATER A SECOND AND THEY'RE MULTIPLYING EXPONENTIALLY", then people will think that's the case even if it's not, and people may chalk up the Plane of Water as "a lost cause", "infested", or even "destroyed", even though there are quite a few (a majority of it, even) perfectly serviceable and not-being-practically-obliterated areas. So while people's belief of what the Plane of Water is won't actually change the Plane of Water, it will change people's perceptions of the Plane of Water.

Stux

2013-11-11, 05:18 PM

Yeah you see I always saw the infinite planes as having finite life. Much like our own Universe (or at least one model of it), where the matter is of a finite amount at any given time, but the vacuum of space within which the matter expands is infinite. Within the plane of water there would be a finite amount of matter that is not water (including all forms of life), but infinite water within which the non-water things could move through and expand within.

Obviously this isn't RAW, but just another reason why you need to chat with your DM about the metaphysics of his world!

asnys

2013-11-11, 05:19 PM

I didn't say that they did.

Let me put it this way: everyone who flies into LAX exits through the same terminal: it is dingy, dusty, and generally run down. Next door, however, is the renovated LAX terminal that no one uses except for private fliers, and it is shiny and nice and well-kept.

Word-of-mouth is going to spread about LAX being a run-down, generally-terrible place to be, even though if you have the right connections or information, you can get the prestigious track.

Same holds true here: if everyone who visits the Plane of Water comes back saying "THERE'S THESE GIANT DEHYDRATOR WHALES EVERYWHERE, SUCKING DOWN THOUSANDS OF GALLONS OF WATER A SECOND AND THEY'RE MULTIPLYING EXPONENTIALLY", then people will think that's the case even if it's not, and people may chalk up the Plane of Water as "a lost cause", "infested", or even "destroyed", even though there are quite a few (a majority of it, even) perfectly serviceable and not-being-practically-obliterated areas. So while people's belief of what the Plane of Water is won't actually change the Plane of Water, it will change people's perceptions of the Plane of Water.

But the OP is trying to destroy the Plane of Water, not ruin its reputation.:smallconfused:

Stux

2013-11-11, 05:20 PM

But the OP is trying to destroy the Plane of Water, not ruin its reputation.:smallconfused:

Ideally he'd like to destroy the plane, but if that is not possible then he seems open to other approaches, based on his responses.

Xuldarinar

2013-11-11, 05:23 PM

How about this? Create an epic spell. Call it… Plane Rip

Seeds: Banish, Energy, Transport.
Duration: Permanent
Target: Touch or Ranged Touch

Effect: Rips touched plane from it's location in the great wheel. Its final destination is up to the caster.

Fax Celestis

2013-11-11, 05:24 PM

But the OP is trying to destroy the Plane of Water, not ruin its reputation.:smallconfused:

If you can convince the multiverse that the source of all evil is a lost cause and should be avoided at all costs, isn't that practically the same as destroying it?

druid91

2013-11-11, 05:31 PM

What about just destroying all water on the prime material? Wouldn't that sever the link between the two worlds?

anacalgion

2013-11-11, 05:32 PM

Go to the largest library in the campaign world and tell him you're researching whether there's some powerful artifact lost to the bowels of time that could accomplish such a feat. If he doesn't take the bait, it means his DM bone is broken and he needs to be put down.

...can I sig this?

Fax Celestis

2013-11-11, 05:35 PM

What about just destroying all water on the prime material? Wouldn't that sever the link between the two worlds?

As the prime material plane is also infinite, you still have the same problem.

Beige Dragon

2013-11-11, 05:36 PM

Collide or fuse the elemental planes of fire and water. If you simply let one drain into the other, because they are infinite, it won't ever finish. But if you mash them together with some force outside of the planes, that should(?) keep them that way. But of course, 3 elements would be unbalanced! After all, air gets the upper hand with the ally of steam on its side! So how do you fix this? Do the same to air and earth! Now you have the element of steam, and the element of sand! Of course, you could go even further, and create the elemental plane of sand storms! Then the only thing that exists would be sandstorms....weird.

Brookshw

2013-11-11, 05:50 PM

If you can convince the multiverse that the source of all evil is a lost cause and should be avoided at all costs, isn't that practically the same as destroying it?

Shouldn't think so, especially in this instance where there's still an infinite amount of water left and there would still be water on the prime. Also with an infinite area to plane shift to why go to the bad part (well, if you were a sensate)? Word could spread to simply avoid that area.

druid91

2013-11-11, 05:53 PM

As the prime material plane is also infinite, you still have the same problem.

Err... since when? I thought that was the point. The prime material is finite, the planes are (Generally) infinite.

Brookshw

2013-11-11, 05:57 PM

Err... since when? I thought that was the point. The prime material is finite, the planes are (Generally) infinite.

Well a crystal sphere would be finite as would a world. Not sure about the prime per se, now I feel like this matter needs to be handed to Afro.

Oko and Qailee

2013-11-11, 05:57 PM

Same holds true here: if everyone who visits the Plane of Water comes back .

1) Your imagery on dehydrator whales is hilarious

2) In an infinite plane with a finite amount of dehydrator whales, the odds of someone seeing those whales is approximately 0

Stux

2013-11-11, 06:01 PM

1)In an infinite plane with a finite amount of dehydrator whales, the odds of someone seeing those whales is approximately 0

Well, that totally depends on what relative sizes of infinity we are talking and how the whales are spaced within it. There could be one every mile in every direction!

Brookshw

2013-11-11, 06:02 PM

Well, that totally depends on what relative sizes of infinity we are talking and how the whales are spaced within it. There could be one every mile in every direction!

Not if there was a finite number of them.

asnys

2013-11-11, 06:04 PM

If you can convince the multiverse that the source of all evil is a lost cause and should be avoided at all costs, isn't that practically the same as destroying it?

No?

I may be under a misapprehension, but I thought the ideal win condition of the OP is to actually rewrite the laws of alchemy by destroying water.

1) Your imagery on dehydrator whales is hilarious

Yeah, RAW or not, if I was DMing I'd be tempted to say that works just because it's such a cool visual. And creating an army of water-obliterating death-whales is way cooler than getting an infinite CL via Cosmic Descryer and casting dispel water

Well, that totally depends on what relative sizes of infinity we are talking and how the whales are spaced within it. There could be one every mile in every direction!

Then you'd have infinite whales.

Stux

2013-11-11, 06:05 PM

Then you'd have infinite whales.

Quite right, I misread what I quoted, apologies!

molten_dragon

2013-11-11, 06:08 PM

Edit: Also, on the black hole thing, the problem is that the actual influence of the black hole's gravity would expand outwards at 'merely' the speed of light. And if the speed of light is infinity in D&D, then black holes don't actually exist, so you have ostensibly have other problems.

That's true, I didn't think of that.

The other issue of course is that one could argue that the volume of a black hole is the volume of its Schwarzchild sphere, in which case you just hit the volume limitations of the spell before you hit 'infinite mass'. The singularity itself is in unknown physics territory so its also unclear if that reaches an asymptotic density for some exotic reason, which could also put a limit on getting to infinity that way.

The volume limitation is on the object, The object (i.e. the part with mass) is just the singularity at the center. But you could get around that by not actually creating a singularity, and instead creating a sphere 1 foot in diameter with infinite mass. You're clearly within the volume limitation of the spell at that point, and it will immediately collapse into a singularity.

asnys

2013-11-11, 06:11 PM

The volume limitation is on the object, The object (i.e. the part with mass) is just the singularity at the center. But you could get around that by not actually creating a singularity, and instead creating a sphere 1 foot in diameter with infinite mass. You're clearly within the volume limitation of the spell at that point, and it will immediately collapse into a singularity.

Doesn't the Elemental Plane of Water have subjective gravity?

molten_dragon

2013-11-11, 06:30 PM

Let's step back a second here. Do we know for a fact that the elemental plane of water is truly infinite?

The Size and Shape section on the planes in the DMG reads:

Planes come in a variety of sizes and shapes. Most planes (including all of those in the D&D cosmology) are infinite, or at least so large that they may as well be infinite.

For the purposes of this discussion, that's a pretty important distinction, because if the elemental plane of water is not truly infinite, and is instead only arbitrarily large, it becomes much easier to destroy.

The specific section on the elemental plane of water doesn't clarify which it is.

Edit: Based on the fact that a few of the planes (Ysgard, The Infinite Layers of the Abyss, The Nine Hells) are specifically pointed out as being infinite, I kind of think the elemental plane of water isn't.

Emperor Tippy

2013-11-11, 06:32 PM

There is only one actual RAW way to destroy the Elemental Plane of Water.

Release Pandorym and the whole campaign setting (including the Elemental Planes) are destroyed.

Sith_Happens

2013-11-11, 06:32 PM

...can I sig this?

Yes.:smallcool:

Doesn't the Elemental Plane of Water have subjective gravity?

Yes. Which, combined with the "infinite size and approximately homogenous" bit, makes for a really interesting time trying to figure out what the water pressure would be.

Fax Celestis

2013-11-11, 06:33 PM

1) Your imagery on dehydrator whales is hilarious

2) In an infinite plane with a finite amount of dehydrator whales, the odds of someone seeing those whales is approximately 0

Again, only if people are randomly distributed throughout the Planes, which they aren't: planar travelers tend to congeal around a few points per plane in a 500 mile radius. If you focus your drainwhales on those points, then people will assume they are as prevalent in the whole plane as they are within those radii.

molten_dragon

2013-11-11, 06:35 PM

Doesn't the Elemental Plane of Water have subjective gravity?

Yeah, I forgot about that.

Fax Celestis

2013-11-11, 06:37 PM

Err... since when? I thought that was the point. The prime material is finite, the planes are (Generally) infinite.

Since always. The Prime Material is basically our universe, which for all intents and purposes isn't infinite but is arbitrarily large.

So maybe drainwhales would work if you put them on the Prime.

nedz

2013-11-11, 06:38 PM

There is only one actual RAW way to destroy the Elemental Plane of Water.

Release Pandorym and the whole campaign setting (including the Elemental Planes) are destroyed.

I thought that there were multiple campaign settings in the multiverse ?
In which case Pandorym would only destroy the Prime of the setting.
It's still impressive in that Pandorym would destroy an infinite amount of stuff, an infinite fraction of which is Water.

Traab

2013-11-11, 06:39 PM

asnys

2013-11-11, 06:41 PM

I fail to see why an exponential growth cant reach infinity in time. Eventually we are going to run out of numbers we have names for and it will continue to grow at an exponential rate forever. There is no end to it, it will just keep on growing at an ever increasing rate until it runs out of whatever it is setup to do. And the op said there is no time limit needed. Just knowing he has set in motion a solution that will destroy the plane of water eventually would be good enough.

We literally can't run out of names for numbers, thanks to decimal notation. You can keep doubling and doubling and doubling until you need more room than exists in the whole universe to write that number down, and you still won't reach infinity. That's the point of it. It will take an infinite amount of time for an exponential process to reach infinity.

Isamu Dyson

2013-11-11, 06:42 PM

I'm surprised by the large number of people saying "Nope, can't be done," and dusting off their hands.

Same here. RPGs are supposed to be (at least partially) about exploring possibilities.

Fax Celestis

2013-11-11, 06:51 PM

Then you'd have infinite whales.

If we want to be technical, wouldn't we have ∞3 drainwhales, since they'd have to be evenly distributed in three infinite directions?

Yes, I am well aware that ∞3 is mathematically approximately the same as ∞, but I figure any conversation about creating a master race of hydrocidic, hypermitotic, space-whales-from-beyond-the-stars might as well be as pedantic as possible.

Traab

2013-11-11, 06:56 PM

Btw, what proof do we have on the planes being infinite as opposed to really really ridiculously good big looking? How can you TELL that something is truly infinite? After all, just because you cant see a beginning or an end doesnt mean they arent there. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

Fax Celestis

2013-11-11, 06:57 PM

Traab

2013-11-11, 07:00 PM

Every source that discusses the planes indicates that they are truly infinite.

Ah ok, I wasnt sure on the wording. "Believed to be infinite" isnt automatically infinite after all.

Ruethgar

2013-11-11, 07:05 PM

I saw the self resetting trap thing and it popped into my mind. Make the traps with the feat Create Devise so they are non-magical and can be Fabricated from True Creation/Wall of X spells. Make an incarnate construct to duplicate itself and set off the traps/make more traps.

Stux

2013-11-11, 07:06 PM

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

That is a bit of a logical fallacy though. It is evidence... just not very strong evidence, and certainly not proof.

Anywho, as for better evidence, just from the SRD

Demiplanes
This catch-all category covers all extradimensional spaces that function like planes but have measurable size and limited access. Other kinds of planes are theoretically infinite in size, but a demiplane might be only a few hundred feet across.

Not exactly cast iron, but it appears that the assumption is that any plane that is not a demi-plane is infinite, and that that is the basic distinction between the two types of plane.

molten_dragon

2013-11-11, 07:11 PM

Every source that discusses the planes indicates that they are truly infinite.

As I pointed out in the text from the DMG, that isn't true of all planes. Only 3 planes are specifically called out as being infinite. The others are said to be "infinite or at least so large they may as well be infinite".

Eldan

2013-11-11, 07:28 PM

Same here. RPGs are supposed to be (at least partially) about exploring possibilities.

We're not saying it can't be done. We're saying that just pulling the plug or starting to convert water from one point can never convert all of infinity. That's not the same.

What you need is an effect which affects the entire plane at once.

Stux

2013-11-11, 07:35 PM

Same here. RPGs are supposed to be (at least partially) about exploring possibilities.

To be fair the implication in the first post was that he was looking for something reasonably RAW as far as possible, and that his DM might be a bit of a stickler for that.

If he had asked for fluff ways of doing it we would probably see more responses of that kind.

Isamu Dyson

2013-11-11, 07:42 PM

Depending on the setting, you're looking at one angry water god. In the Forgotten Realms, this would be Istishia.

Not only would he be after you, but any deity that relies on water (such as Chauntea for her crops) would also be coming after you as well.

NichG

2013-11-11, 07:44 PM

Yes. Which, combined with the "infinite size and approximately homogenous" bit, makes for a really interesting time trying to figure out what the water pressure would be.

I think its actually free to be whatever in this case, independent of gravity, since subjective gravity only influences the subject. Basically, whatever the ambient/resting water pressure is on the elemental plane of water is a fundamental constant of the D&D universe, just as the speed of light is for ours, because its set by the boundary conditions on an infinite, boundary-less plane.

Ostensibly it should be high enough that the plane doesn't spontaneously boil of course...

I fail to see why an exponential growth cant reach infinity in time. Eventually we are going to run out of numbers we have names for and it will continue to grow at an exponential rate forever. There is no end to it, it will just keep on growing at an ever increasing rate until it runs out of whatever it is setup to do. And the op said there is no time limit needed. Just knowing he has set in motion a solution that will destroy the plane of water eventually would be good enough.

If you name some finite amount of time you're willing to wait, I can name the amount of stuff consumed by an exponential process. It is just e^(that number * rate). Name any number you like for the time and the number you get out as far as stuff consumed is less than infinity. If we talk about it in terms of 'percent done', that percentage is always zero no matter what finite number you give me for the time.

Because of the way infinities work, it doesn't matter if he sets in motion some exponential grey goo process or just gets an immortal, infallible golem to methodically destroy a single atom of water every billion years. They both take 'as long' to finish off infinity.

If we want to be technical, wouldn't we have ∞3 drainwhales, since they'd have to be evenly distributed in three infinite directions?

I don't really want to think about whether the plane of water is aleph-0 or aleph-1...

Coidzor

2013-11-11, 07:45 PM

Tharizdun is reasonably certain that he can destroy all of existence. He's been locked away for this very reason.

The leShay are speculated to have been partially responsible for the last reboot of the multiverse, which destroyed (just about) everything from the last incarnation of existence except for them.

Within the grasp of players in even low Epic though? Seems like it'd require a lot of maguffins and plot coupons and generally not be the best of ideas.

asnys

2013-11-11, 08:28 PM

As I pointed out in the text from the DMG, that isn't true of all planes. Only 3 planes are specifically called out as being infinite. The others are said to be "infinite or at least so large they may as well be infinite".

The Manual of the Planes lists the elemental planes as actually infinite.

molten_dragon

2013-11-11, 08:49 PM

The Manual of the Planes lists the elemental planes as actually infinite.

I guess it depends on whether you want to go by somewhat vague text in a core 3.5 book or specific text in a 3.0 splatbook.

gooddragon1

2013-11-11, 09:03 PM

Pun-Pun was brought up earlier. Use the manipulate form ability with a loose wording to say:

Destroy Plane (Ex)

As a standard action, ~ may destroy target plane of existence. There is a 50% chance that a wish, miracle, or true resurrection spell can restore the destroyed plane of existence. Check once for each destroyed plane of existence. If the check fails, the plane of existence cannot be brought back by mortal magic.

Angelalex242

2013-11-11, 09:14 PM

Ya know, there might be nobler character who set out to erase, say, the Abyss from existence. And Baator/9 Hells. And so on...

demigodus

2013-11-11, 11:53 PM

Using traps, it can be done. Depends on the size of the infinity as to how convoluted it has to get.

If the planes are merely of ∞ size (this is the size you would reach if the plane grew by a set rate in each direction for an infinite amount of time), making two copies of the following trap:
self-resetting, trigger condition is that a trap goes off within line of sight.
On activation, creates a one-use item that Greater Teleports to a random location on the plane, and then casts dispel water.

Bring in a third trap (can be anything at all), and activate it. This will cause the other two to activate, each of whose's triggering will cause the other trap to activate, which will cause the initial to activate, which will cause...

Causing each trap to go off an infinite number of times in an instant. That should cause an infinite number of dehydrates to go off all over the plane, distributed roughly uniformly.

If the plane is of 2∞ size (this is the size you would reach if the plane's size increased by some percentage in each direction every day for an infinite time), than have 3 copies of the resetting traps.
Initial trap causes 3 activations, which cause 6 activations, which cause 12, which cause... cause the traps to go off 2n n times each on each activation.

You have exponential growth, done in 0 time, with no cut off. Bam, sufficiently high infinite has been achieved.

Pickford

2013-11-12, 01:59 AM

I guess it depends on whether you want to go by somewhat vague text in a core 3.5 book or specific text in a 3.0 splatbook.

The Planar Handbook actually refers DMs to the Manual of the Planes.

unseenmage

2013-11-12, 02:07 AM

a) Epic Spells can do anything
b) So can Gods.
c) The only other things i could think of were veiled fiats in their own rights much like the above, but less crunchy.

Eldritch Machines fro Eberron, Artifact Spells from Eberron, Artifacts. Wish.

Seriously, just Mindrape a Djinn into agreeing with your idea and have it grant a Wish to this end. Problem solved.

Edit: Oh and also Lucid Dreaming from the Manual of the Planes. it can also do just about anything.

AuraTwilight

2013-11-12, 02:47 AM

a) Epic Spells can do anything
b) So can Gods.

Untrue.

Seriously, just Mindrape a Djinn into agreeing with your idea and have it grant a Wish to this end. Problem solved.

Wish has defined limits.

Edit: Oh and also Lucid Dreaming from the Manual of the Planes. it can also do just about anything.

The Plane of Water isn't a dream.

Epsilon Rose

2013-11-12, 02:54 AM

Honestly, Elder Evils sound like the "best" solution. Either leviathan or Pandorim will happily destroy parts of a cosmology* and with a bit of finagling you can probably get them to take out the plain of water fairly early on. Of course, this will probably result in massive collateral, but you're trying to take out a plain of existence. Massive Collateral should be expected.

I also feel someone should tell your character that blood is mostly water. As are many stones. It's also important for a ton of chemical processes. I foresee a few unintended consequences of his quest.

Warning: The parts of a cosmology that an Elder Evil will happily destroy are: All of them.

Kitbix

2013-11-12, 03:05 AM

Thank you play grounders,

Your support in my cause is awe inspiring, and thus has Renewed my will to continue this effort.

The True goal is to get people to "quit" this water habit. so If there is a way to essentially stop up the water plane with water eating whales, that would go a long way to help. At that point i would only need to stop people from using magic to get water back. Maybe some kinda Mythal(epic seed) that prevents casting on the material plane of any water spells.

That only leaves fighting off gods......
hmmmmm.......

I have a long way to go.
So much dam water.

Any further suggestions will be read, and heavily considered.
Ty again :smallsmile:

Ortesk

2013-11-12, 03:06 AM

By level 10 i can do it, with ease and not using pun pun

unseenmage

2013-11-12, 03:13 AM

Untrue.
Then someone's not being creative enough.

Epic Spells can actually do anything. The only limiter is the DCs and those are trivialized by the very mechanics of Epic Spells themselves.

A Deity commands reality within a certain area, they declare that the entirety of the Plane of Water is the blue ball they hold in their hand. Then they destroy said ball. What happens?

Wish has defined limits.
Granted but it also doesn't. That "greater effects" bit is nice and fiat-ey.
And admittedly one might have to Epic Spell version of Mindrape the entire Pantheon to get such a Wish granted but it's still possible.

The Plane of Water isn't a dream.
No it isn't, right up until you use the Dreamheart to make it so.

Alternatively, one could just live out one's days in a dream made real where all the water really is gone. And make a Lucid Dreaming check to convince yourself it's so.

Pickford

2013-11-12, 03:33 AM

Then someone's not being creative enough.

Epic Spells can actually do anything. The only limiter is the DCs and those are trivialized by the very mechanics of Epic Spells themselves.

A Deity commands reality within a certain area, they declare that the entirety of the Plane of Water is the blue ball they hold in their hand. Then they destroy said ball. What happens?

So...is there an Epic spell version of Shapechange that is permanent (i.e. always working) and grants Sp abilities?

Eldan

2013-11-12, 04:30 AM

Ya know, there might be nobler character who set out to erase, say, the Abyss from existence. And Baator/9 Hells. And so on...

That would sadly not work. Or not easily. If you just physicaly destroy an outer plane, it would eventually reform. Probably sooner rather than later.

Why? Because every outer plane is a manifestation of certain mortal beliefs. That means that the lower planes will exist as long as there are evil mortals or even just good mortals who believe evil exists.

The only way to really destroy the Abyss would be to mindrape every creature in existance so that not only is no one chaotic evil, no one can even imagine chaotic evil.

Which sounds like an act of such monumental lawful evilness that Asmodeus would probably just take over the world.

Anyway. Much easier than destroying the entire plane of water would be to just completely cut off whichever planet you are on, since planets are finite in size.
A few suggestions, more fluff than anything:
Planetwide effect that prevents energies from crossing planar boundaries, set up in the ethereal.
Planetwide change of planar traits, so that water magic is impossible.

Ortesk

2013-11-12, 04:32 AM

That would sadly not work. Or not easily. If you just physicaly destroy an outer plane, it would eventually reform. Probably sooner rather than later.

Why? Because every outer plane is a manifestation of certain mortal beliefs. That means that the lower planes will exist as long as there are evil mortals or even just good mortals who believe evil exists.

The only way to really destroy the Abyss would be to mindrape every creature in existance so that not only is no one chaotic evil, no one can even imagine chaotic evil.

Which sounds like an act of such monumental lawful evilness that Asmodeus would probably just take over the world.

Now im curious, how i do this

kabreras

2013-11-12, 04:59 AM

Problem with trying to destroy planes is that you make a lot of powerfull (deitylike) peoples angry...

And when a deity is angry its generally bad omen for your bottom

TuggyNE

2013-11-12, 05:02 AM

Now im curious, how i do this

Same way you destroy the Plane of Water: infinite spellcasting.

Ortesk

2013-11-12, 05:08 AM

Same way you destroy the Plane of Water: infinite spellcasting.

It cant be that hard, you just have to find a way to affect every living being. Sure infinites, but there has to be an epic spell that affects all livning beings

Mnemnosyne

2013-11-12, 06:17 AM

It cant be that hard, you just have to find a way to affect every living being. Sure infinites, but there has to be an epic spell that affects all livning beings
The epic spellcasting system might theoretically be able to do this, but you would never actually be able to achieve it, because you would need an infinite amount of gold to develop the epic spell that would do it. You can't actually have an infinite amount of gold (an infinite gold loop gives you a finite amount of gold every x time increment for infinite time, but you never actually have infinite gold in your possession at any one time) therefore you can never actually develop the spell. Even if you had an infinite amount of gold, the spell would require an infinite amount of days to develop, so again, you could never actually develop it; you could only work on it infinitely.

Seer_of_Heart

2013-11-12, 06:31 AM

This is wrong actually, Pun-pun has a CL of "arbitrarily large" not actually infinity, you can make it as large as you want, but it's still a set value, it's never actually "infinite"

Sorry but its actually infinity. Pun-Pun has an intended of infinity through the omnificer trick which can be added to his caster level through stealing the ability of the sanctified one of wee jas. I reccomend you go to minmax boards and read the up to date thread on Pun-Pun there. Alternatively, he could just have a copy manifest temporal acceleration infinite times within a round while the clone was constantly casting suffer the flesh or some other cl increasing spell. Again, a finite action infinite times is infinity.

Eldan

2013-11-12, 06:31 AM

The epic spellcasting system might theoretically be able to do this, but you would never actually be able to achieve it, because you would need an infinite amount of gold to develop the epic spell that would do it. You can't actually have an infinite amount of gold (an infinite gold loop gives you a finite amount of gold every x time increment for infinite time, but you never actually have infinite gold in your possession at any one time) therefore you can never actually develop the spell. Even if you had an infinite amount of gold, the spell would require an infinite amount of days to develop, so again, you could never actually develop it; you could only work on it infinitely.

Hm. You can not achieve truly infinite mitigation, can you? Only arbitrarily large mitigation.

Stux

2013-11-12, 07:17 AM

Alternatively, he could just have a copy manifest temporal acceleration infinite times within a round while the clone was constantly casting suffer the flesh or some other cl increasing spell.

I still hold that this does not work. You can't manifest temporal acceleration infinite times, only arbitrarily many. You still have to put a finite number on the number of times you manifest it.

Look at it this way, as perceived by pun-pun, when does he stop manifesting temporal acceleration? When he has a sufficiently high CL. When does he have a sufficiently high CL? Never.

Again, a finite action infinite times is infinity.

You can't apply normal arithmetic to infinity, that's not how it works.

NichG

2013-11-12, 08:19 AM

unseenmage

2013-11-12, 08:32 AM

I did have the idea last night to somehow give an Umbral Blot (the living Sphere of Annihilation) manifesting. teach it an Infinite PP trick, then lock it into an infinite Time Stop and have it infinitely manifest Expansion while it's in there.

Now the only thing it can interact with is the Water which it destroys by virtue of being itself. And as it's in an Infinite Time Stop it doesn't matter that it 's "infinity" started second, it has all that time it needs in there to "catch up" to the Plane of Water's production.

This is just a rough draft of an idea. Not sure how it's be done mechanically just yet though.

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The epic spellcasting system might theoretically be able to do this, but you would never actually be able to achieve it, because you would need an infinite amount of gold to develop the epic spell that would do it. You can't actually have an infinite amount of gold (an infinite gold loop gives you a finite amount of gold every x time increment for infinite time, but you never actually have infinite gold in your possession at any one time) therefore you can never actually develop the spell. Even if you had an infinite amount of gold, the spell would require an infinite amount of days to develop, so again, you could never actually develop it; you could only work on it infinitely.

Which works until you research an Epic Spell that creates a new seed for you called the "infinite seed" that does what was impossible before and then you use that to actually affect infinity.

That's the thing about the Epic Spellcasting system, both it's strength and it's weakness, if you can imagine it you can do it.

Stux

2013-11-12, 08:38 AM

unseenmage

2013-11-12, 08:41 AM

I'm not buying these infinite Time Stop/Temporal Acceleration shenanigans. You can still only do a finite amount of stuff, because at some point you have to say "That's enough messing about with time, lets go back to the real world".

Arbitrarily large in no time, but that is still not infinite.

That's why the Umbral Blot. It's very substance destroys matter. If it becomes infinitely big whilst in Time Stop it destroys infinite stuff that Time Stop lets it interact with.

Stux

2013-11-12, 08:49 AM

That's why the Umbral Blot. It's very substance destroys matter. If it becomes infinitely big whilst in Time Stop it destroys infinite stuff that Time Stop lets it interact with.

But it wont become infinitely big while time stopped, because you still have to cast time stop a finite number of times. Even if there is no limit to how many times you can cast time stop before the normal time flow resumes you still have to pick a number.

satorian

2013-11-12, 08:50 AM

you could affect all living beings by using a souped up version of familicide. research how many generations there have been since sentience first appeared on a given plane. in dnd, sentient species tend to have been created by the gods at some time x thousand years ago. cast the spell on 1 person of every sentient species, killing every relative back until the first generation (as opposed to the comic's familicide, which only went back a few generations).

unseenmage

2013-11-12, 08:53 AM

But it wont become infinitely big while time stopped, because you still have to cast time stop a finite number of times. Even if there is no limit to how many times you can cast time stop before the normal time flow resumes you still have to pick a number.

There's a Cheesey exploit that makes Time Stop last forever IIRC. I havn't used it myself and like I said, it's just a rough draft of an idea. It's my brain combining things I've read on the forums while I was half awake last night. :smallsmile:

Brookshw

2013-11-12, 08:59 AM

That's why the Umbral Blot. It's very substance destroys matter. If it becomes infinitely big whilst in Time Stop it destroys infinite stuff that Time Stop lets it interact with.

Interesting, would this constitute an attack? I'm not sure it would be viable per time stops restrictions but I haven't looked at the creature in a while.

NichG

2013-11-12, 09:02 AM

Which works until you research an Epic Spell that creates a new seed for you called the "infinite seed" that does what was impossible before and then you use that to actually affect infinity.

That's the thing about the Epic Spellcasting system, both it's strength and it's weakness, if you can imagine it you can do it.

I put using the Epic Spellcasting system this way in the same category as using a plot MacGuffin or other DM-enabled method, because the system does not tell you how to actually figure out what you'd need to do in order to actually create a new epic spell seed, nor what sort of stats it would have.

Basically, it requires too much DM interpretation to really be useful for a TO-style discussion like this. At best you can argue that 'it isn't inconsistent with the system for something like this to be done', but you can't really argue that by RAW it is explicitly doable.

Stux

2013-11-12, 09:16 AM

sumkidy

2013-11-12, 09:27 AM

You could find a way to cause a reaction that would take place faster than a theoretically expanding water plane.

This reaction, faster than the expansion of the water plane, would break down the molecules of water into its constituent elements.
Processes such as 'Photocatalytic water splitting' and 'water electrolysis' can do this.

If that isn't possible, you could try exploding it with an endlessly spawning amount of a substance that is highly reactive with water, such as Francium. More extreme than this... heck you could try to turn it into energy (E=mc^2)

Since every material in the universe is a configuration of molecules in the first place then the answer is yes, water can be destroyed. Physical changes like temperature and state do not destroy water

At least, if you cannot destroy it, you can either permanently pollute it, or you can cut off its access and influence.

unseenmage

2013-11-12, 09:33 AM

I put using the Epic Spellcasting system this way in the same category as using a plot MacGuffin or other DM-enabled method, because the system does not tell you how to actually figure out what you'd need to do in order to actually create a new epic spell seed, nor what sort of stats it would have.

Basically, it requires too much DM interpretation to really be useful for a TO-style discussion like this. At best you can argue that 'it isn't inconsistent with the system for something like this to be done', but you can't really argue that by RAW it is explicitly doable.

In which case you research an epic version of an existing spell instead. Epic Wish for example. Call it Super Wish or something. Use that in place of an Epic Seed.

It is my opinion that this is exactly the sort of thing Epic Spells were left vague and open ended for. Infinity, and Plane-destroying, and dead gods, etc. It's the power of narrative given form in magic wielded by the character. Heck with Epic Spells you actually get to build a Pun-Pun analogue from scratch and have him breed true. Destroying a Plane with the system should be a no-brainer, easy-peasy, done deal. Dealing with the consequences? Now that could take some more doing. :smallbiggrin:

There's a Sidebar in the ELH page 91 that explains how Epic Seeds are made too by the way.
And as throughout the Epic Spell Seeds descriptions some fairly vital info is set aside in the sidebars I reckon that the intention wasn't that these Sidebars be treated as ask-your-DM-variant-rules as is so often the case in splats.

-----------------

Interesting, would this constitute an attack? I'm not sure it would be viable per time stops restrictions but I haven't looked at the creature in a while.

Umbral Blot (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/umbralBlot.htm)

It's listed as a Special Attack but it doesn't require an action to activate, looks like it's just always "on".

Disintegrating Touch (Ex)
Any material object that comes into contact with a blackball is immediately disintegrated unless it succeeds at a Fortitude save (DC 38). A character or object that has been disintegrated by an umbral blot disappears completely, leaving behind not even dust to mark its passing. Those who make a successful saving throw still take 5d6 points of damage from the disintegrating touch. Likewise, weapons or objects that save take a like amount of damage. (Remember, tended or held objects save with the same bonus as their owners.)

And it looks like, by RAW, that if it ever Plane Shifts to the Elemental Plane of Water it really would destroy all of the water, even without Expansion/Infinite Time Stop shenanigans. So long as all of that water counts as a single colossal object.

NichG

2013-11-12, 10:02 AM

In which case you research an epic version of an existing spell instead. Epic Wish for example. Call it Super Wish or something. Use that in place of an Epic Seed.

It is my opinion that this is exactly the sort of thing Epic Spells were left vague and open ended for. Infinity, and Plane-destroying, and dead gods, etc. It's the power of narrative given form in magic wielded by the character. Heck with Epic Spells you actually get to build a Pun-Pun analogue from scratch and have him breed true. Destroying a Plane with the system should be a no-brainer, easy-peasy, done deal. Dealing with the consequences? Now that could take some more doing. :smallbiggrin:

There's a Sidebar in the ELH page 91 that explains how Epic Seeds are made too by the way.

This is exactly what I mean about it being inappropriate for a TO discussion. If I very carefully follow the sidebar:

The actual DC for each seed is figured by looking at the lowest-level spell that's truly representative for a given seed among the spells in the Player's Handbook.

I can conclude that you cannot make an Infinity seed because there is no spell in the Player's Handbook that is 'truly representative' of extending the effect of something to infinity.

But this fundamentally involves a subjective decision - what determines if a spell is 'truly representative' of some arbitrary imagined effect? In TO-land, this is going to fall under the same mantle as original spell research - namely, it requires a subjective decision by the DM as far as what spell level is appropriate for the spell.

If we allow for subjective rulings its actually easier for me to do this without the epic system, because if I'm just doing original spell research I could just research a Lv9 spell that destroys the Plane of Water and then ask the DM what material component I'd need to make that allowable. But basically, this is the same as the 'research the artifact of power from the campaign's biggest library' that was suggested very early in the thread.

unseenmage

2013-11-12, 10:14 AM

This is exactly what I mean about it being inappropriate for a TO discussion. If I very carefully follow the sidebar:

I can conclude that you cannot make an Infinity seed because there is no spell in the Player's Handbook that is 'truly representative' of extending the effect of something to infinity.

But this fundamentally involves a subjective decision - what determines if a spell is 'truly representative' of some arbitrary imagined effect? In TO-land, this is going to fall under the same mantle as original spell research - namely, it requires a subjective decision by the DM as far as what spell level is appropriate for the spell.

If we allow for subjective rulings its actually easier for me to do this without the epic system, because if I'm just doing original spell research I could just research a Lv9 spell that destroys the Plane of Water and then ask the DM what material component I'd need to make that allowable. But basically, this is the same as the 'research the artifact of power from the campaign's biggest library' that was suggested very early in the thread.

So basically it's inappropriate for TO discussions if it's guaranteed to work?

More seriously, I understand where you're coming from. But to me, the subjective decisions and DM cooperation are more important/useful than "pure RAW" exploits as they're more in line with both RAI and the 'fun for everyone' of the D&D.

But I get it, I'll stop espousing the merits of using the system designed to do the thing we're trying to do to do the thing we're trying to do. Please return to your regularly scheduled slightly more precise interpretations.

NichG

2013-11-12, 11:52 AM

So basically it's inappropriate for TO discussions if it's guaranteed to work?

More seriously, I understand where you're coming from. But to me, the subjective decisions and DM cooperation are more important/useful than "pure RAW" exploits as they're more in line with both RAI and the 'fun for everyone' of the D&D.

But I get it, I'll stop espousing the merits of using the system designed to do the thing we're trying to do to do the thing we're trying to do. Please return to your regularly scheduled slightly more precise interpretations.

Its the nature of TO discussions - they deal with things that no sane DM would allow, specifically because they restrict themselves to things that don't require a DM to allow them. The point of them is 'within a rules framework, can you do something/how can you do it?'

On the other hand, you can ask 'how could I accomplish this at the table of a reasonable DM?'. The thing is, exploiting systems like making an 'Infinite' epic seed or wishing for it won't work there, because a reasonable DM won't allow broken things like that into the game. The real answer for a real table is basically to pursue the metaphysics or research artifacts/MacGuffins, because its something where you're working with the DM, rather than trying to rules-lawyer your way to success - something that does not work very well at real tables.

That leaves the epic spellcasting solution pretty much out in the cold. No reasonable DM will permit it, and by RAW it doesn't work or can't really be evaluated at least.

Eldan

2013-11-12, 11:58 AM

That's the definition of TO as opposed to practical optimization. It's theoretical because you will never, ever get to use it, even though the rules allow it.

unseenmage

2013-11-12, 12:07 PM

That leaves the epic spellcasting solution pretty much out in the cold. No reasonable DM will permit it, and by RAW it doesn't work or can't really be evaluated at least.

Disagree. One person's definition of 'reasonable DM' is subjective.

I have played with the Epic Spell Seeds at both 'reasonable lets communicate and not break the game' tables and TO tables. And had fun both times. Both tables were different, yes. But neither were wrong or "out in the cold".

AstralFire

2013-11-12, 12:14 PM

You could find a way to cause a reaction that would take place faster than a theoretically expanding water plane.

The problem with all arguments that are a variation of this core is that they essentially require that the Elemental Plane of Water have a finite but arbitrarily large amount of water at any given time, and that it merely continues to add water at a fixed rate for an infinite amount of time.

That's a graph with two functions on it. That way, you eventually overtake the other function if the rate is simply high enough.

If the elemental plane of water is infinite, then there is no function for it. it is just undefined.

Isheian

2013-11-12, 03:15 PM

One of my current DMs made a fire that burns anything. We sent it to the astral plane. So the astral plane is burning. That counts right?

AuraTwilight

2013-11-12, 03:45 PM

By level 10 i can do it, with ease and not using pun pun

Please Elaborate.

Epic Spells can actually do anything. The only limiter is the DCs and those are trivialized by the very mechanics of Epic Spells themselves.

As other people have explained before I could, Epic Spells are not a suitable answer. They require GM fiat when the OP specified an uncooperative, rules-mongeringly GM that doesn't seem to want him to succeed at this task if he can help it, and without homebrewing up an Infinity Seed, Epic Spells can't do the job because they have a range of effect.

A Deity commands reality within a certain area, they declare that the entirety of the Plane of Water is the blue ball they hold in their hand. Then they destroy said ball. What happens?

Deities can't do this. A "certain area" is not "an infinite expanse that goes on forever."

Granted but it also doesn't. That "greater effects" bit is nice and fiat-ey.
And admittedly one might have to Epic Spell version of Mindrape the entire Pantheon to get such a Wish granted but it's still possible.

see above; GM Fiat. 'Greater effects' are, by raw, only partially fulfilled anyway.

Gods are immune to mind-affecting effects, even if they were capable of doing this. Which they're not.

No it isn't, right up until you use the Dreamheart to make it so.

If the Dreamheart has this sort of power. There's no indication that the Dreamheart is able to effect reality in such a way, whatsoever. I challenge you to prove otherwise.

Alternatively, one could just live out one's days in a dream made real where all the water really is gone. And make a Lucid Dreaming check to convince yourself it's so.

Not good enough for the OP's purposes.

I did have the idea last night to somehow give an Umbral Blot (the living Sphere of Annihilation) manifesting. teach it an Infinite PP trick, then lock it into an infinite Time Stop and have it infinitely manifest Expansion while it's in there.

Now the only thing it can interact with is the Water which it destroys by virtue of being itself. And as it's in an Infinite Time Stop it doesn't matter that it 's "infinity" started second, it has all that time it needs in there to "catch up" to the Plane of Water's production.

This is just a rough draft of an idea. Not sure how it's be done mechanically just yet though.

I did have the idea last night to somehow give an Umbral Blot (the living Sphere of Annihilation) manifesting. teach it an Infinite PP trick, then lock it into an infinite Time Stop and have it infinitely manifest Expansion while it's in there.

Now the only thing it can interact with is the Water which it destroys by virtue of being itself. And as it's in an Infinite Time Stop it doesn't matter that it 's "infinity" started second, it has all that time it needs in there to "catch up" to the Plane of Water's production.

This is just a rough draft of an idea. Not sure how it's be done mechanically just yet though. You're not addressing the main issue in the way of all your suggestions.

GreyHound

2013-11-12, 07:33 PM

I have no idea how to do the following plans in D&D, and I leave the methods to magic and ‘reasons’.

Plan A

Disconnect the plan of water from the material plane. This should be easier to do than destroying it and for all intents and purposes has the same effect. Existence and water have nothing to do with each other (great… why did we want to do this again).

However this plan still has the annoying side effect of ripping apart the building blocks of reality. What you could do is swap out the elemental plane of water with another elemental plane of something-really-similar-to-water. I will leave the specifics of that plane to you, but if you give a substitute then reality might not have to end and hopefully neither will the campaign. For example, you could use the element plane of mercury (since it’s also a liquid at room temperature), and while this would still probably wipe out almost all life…it would open the door to all kinds of new and exciting mercury based life forms (not sure how well that will work).

Plan B
Time travel! (What can go wrong with time travel?) You could travel back in time to the creation of the material plane and stop the deities of your game world from making the material plane of water. Then it never existed in the first place.

Of course you might just make a parallel universe in the process. Or you might end up altering the entire multiverse…I’m not sure. Either way, fighting the gods at the beginning of time makes for a pretty sweet final boss fight.

Plan C

Character development never hurts either. You said that your character knows his task is may very well be impossible. Keeping that in mind, there’s nothing wrong with him changing from this course of action as a form of growth. There’s nothing wrong with preserving though.

On the other hand, you can always use your character’s desire to destroy a plane of reality as motivation for going on quests and going through with decisions you wouldn’t normally make (like evaporating lakes and rivers). I hope some of these helped.

Rubik

2013-11-12, 07:52 PM

I did have the idea last night to somehow give an Umbral Blot (the living Sphere of Annihilation) manifesting. teach it an Infinite PP trick, then lock it into an infinite Time Stop and have it infinitely manifest Expansion while it's in there.

Now the only thing it can interact with is the Water which it destroys by virtue of being itself. And as it's in an Infinite Time Stop it doesn't matter that it 's "infinity" started second, it has all that time it needs in there to "catch up" to the Plane of Water's production.

This is just a rough draft of an idea. Not sure how it's be done mechanically just yet though. You're not addressing the main issue in the way of all your suggestions.Multiple applications of the same effect don't stack, so you can't get "infinite size" out of an umbral blot -- or anything else, for that matter.

As mentioned before, it'd be best if you took care of things on the Material Plane. Since the standard Planescape cosmology revolves around belief on the Material Plane, just have a Wish trap that produces Wish traps that produces Wish traps of microscopic spell clocks or something. First, the final trap casts Suggestion, then it casts Teleport in a random direction, then it repeats. If the Wish trap produces hundreds of thousands of Suggestion/Teleport traps, you should have the entire Material Plane covered before long, and if you can somehow turn Suggestion into a fear effect, adding 4 levels of dread witch to the trap's creator could bypass all forms of immunity to it.

Suggestion: "Water is a disgusting illusion that you want nothing to do with, and it does not exist. Do not believe in it, destroy and avoid it whenever possible, and spread ways to exist without it wherever you can."

demigodus

2013-11-12, 07:56 PM

You could use the Omniscificer trick, combined with Insightful Strike and sunder the water or the plane. That would let you do infinite damage, so, now the problem has been reduced from 'acquire infinity' to 'get a weapon that can damage water'.

For example, a torch. Infinite fire damage = instantly turn the entire plane into steam.

"Yup, I destroyed the Elemental Plane of Water with a Non-Magical Torch."

You can pull this off at level 7 (Artificer 4/Warblade 3 or Artificer 4/Swordsage 3). None of that broken Epic-Casting hax.

If you want to have fun, pick up the feat that lets you replace concentration checks with perform checks. Use perform oratory to explain to the plane why it has been a very naughty plane, causing it to be burned out of existence.

So far this is the only 'expanding loop' suggestion I've seen on this thread that looks like it actually works mathematically. In order to 'break' this I have to insist on physics stuff that isn't necessarily in D&D, like finite propagation speed of light (e.g. if it takes some non-zero time for the traps to be aware of eachothers' activations).

Thank you. And yeah, traps don't work with speed of light limit.

So basically it's inappropriate for TO discussions if it's guaranteed to work?

More seriously, I understand where you're coming from. But to me, the subjective decisions and DM cooperation are more important/useful than "pure RAW" exploits as they're more in line with both RAI and the 'fun for everyone' of the D&D.

But I get it, I'll stop espousing the merits of using the system designed to do the thing we're trying to do to do the thing we're trying to do. Please return to your regularly scheduled slightly more precise interpretations.

You aren't really using a system at this point though.

There is no system for making new epic seeds. There is no system for making any aspects of epic spellcasting infinite. You are trying to make a whole new system, and then tack it on to the epic spellcasting system.

Rubik

2013-11-12, 08:09 PM

unseenmage

2013-11-12, 08:21 PM

druid91

2013-11-12, 08:34 PM

I believe you damage 10' cubes per attack, meaning you deal infinite damage on a 10' cube. Not likely to destroy anything but a particularly small plane...

Collateral damage rules would likely apply. 50% to the above, 10% to every other direction.

Which IIRC, 50% and 10% of infinity is still infinity.

Rubik

2013-11-12, 08:37 PM

What if you combined bloodstorm blade with a weapon that can damage water, the Distant Shot feat, the exit wounds property, and obscene amounts of damage? You should have line of sight to basically the entire plane, and enough levels in bloodstorm blade means you can attack everything within range -- and with Distant Shot, that means everything is within range. Just attack every 10' cube in the entire plane, and with enough damage, you destroy every bit of it.

Combine with the d2 crusader to ensure proper amounts of damage.

druid91

2013-11-12, 09:34 PM

What if you combined bloodstorm blade with a weapon that can damage water, the Distant Shot feat, the exit wounds property, and obscene amounts of damage? You should have line of sight to basically the entire plane, and enough levels bloodstorm blade means you can attack everything within range -- and with Distant Shot, that means everything is within range. Just attack every 10' cube in the entire plane, and with enough damage, you destroy every bit of it.

Combine with the d2 crusader to ensure proper amounts of damage.

"And then we were swimming along back to the portal... and then all the sudden the water was replaced with arrows!"

Rubik

2013-11-12, 09:37 PM

"And then we were swimming along back to the portal... and then all the sudden the water was replaced with arrows!"Daggers, more like, but still.

Also, make sure to add the splitting property for extra goodness.

The elemental plane of daggers. Would the OP's character prefer breathing daggers to water?

Evandar

2013-11-12, 09:42 PM

I am actually awed that you have worked out a way to potentially turn the fundamental building blocks of the universe into sharp objects.

Rubik

2013-11-13, 12:52 AM

What sort of weapon can destroy water? How about a use-activated trap of Disintegrate on the weapon's blade? It casts Disintegrate on whatever it hits? Dispel Water would be more efficient (and it'd be right up the OP's character's alley), but it wouldn't be nearly as multipurpose. Chained Disintegrate, perhaps? Are there any basic weapon enhancements that could do this without resorting to traps?

I am actually awed that you have worked out a way to potentially turn the fundamental building blocks of the universe into sharp objects.I would totally sig that if I was into that sort of thing. Thanks!

Sith_Happens

2013-11-13, 12:54 AM

I'm not buying these infinite Time Stop/Temporal Acceleration shenanigans. You can still only do a finite amount of stuff, because at some point you have to say "That's enough messing about with time, lets go back to the real world".

Arbitrarily large in no time, but that is still not infinite.

Since we are dealing with time manipulation here, I'd say it's perfectly reasonable for the process to never finish from one frame of reference while finishing immediately from a different frame of reference.

Brookshw

2013-11-13, 06:43 AM

I am actually awed that you have worked out a way to potentially turn the fundamental building blocks of the universe into sharp objects.

Great quote but I'm not seeing what or how you'd be seeing infinite distances, especially through water.

Eldan

2013-11-13, 07:01 AM

Hm. I think even with very few features like coral reefs, ships or buildings, the chance that there is one between you and infinity is 100%, so you should not see everything.

That can be circumvented, howeve,r if you get a reliable way to see through objects.

I've never heard of weapons being able to affect whater, however. Some kind of disintegration effect on the weapons, maybe?

Brookshw

2013-11-13, 07:07 AM

Even without infinite obstacles, taking into account the spot rules, well, good luck spotting the moon let alone infinity.

Eldan

2013-11-13, 07:08 AM

True. But truly infinite skill checks are a thing, I think?

Traab

2013-11-13, 07:33 AM

XmonkTad

2013-11-13, 08:05 AM

Well, a sphere of annihilation has a move speed of 10+(control check-30) where the control check is 1d20+int mod+ char level. So if you find an entropomancer with infinite int, he could do it in a round. A talisman of the sphere doubles the check, but even if you stack them, that is still just an exponential increase.

It's a good thing the check isn't based on wisdom.

NichG

2013-11-13, 08:27 AM

I can see spotting everything in your los, but how will you see everything in a perfect sphere around you stretching off into infinity including directly behind you? Or am I missing something about how the feats work?

Well, so even then that just means you need something like 6 attacks - one for each face of a cube, for example.

Brookshw

2013-11-13, 08:56 AM

Well, so even then that just means you need something like 6 attacks - one for each face of a cube, for example.

That and we'd need to introduce facing rules.

The Dodr Dragon

2013-11-13, 10:39 AM

Guys, if you are so sure you need to use numbers..
Just divide the infinite amount of water on the EPoW by zero!:smallbiggrin:

Rubik

2013-11-13, 12:50 PM

I can see spotting everything in your los, but how will you see everything in a perfect sphere around you stretching off into infinity including directly behind you? Or am I missing something about how the feats work?The bloodstorm blade's Blade Storm ability allows you to attack everything within line of sight, without bothering with facing. And Hide vs Spot only penalizes Spot checks when there's something actually actively Hiding.

unseenmage

2013-11-13, 12:54 PM

The bloodstorm blade's Blade Storm ability allows you to attack everything within line of sight, without bothering with facing. And Hide vs Spot only penalizes Spot checks when there's something actually actively Hiding.

isn't there something in the DMG about overland spotting distances?
Could have sworn that sets a RAW limit on how far two groups can be apart before they're aware of each other visually.

Rubik

2013-11-13, 01:03 PM

isn't there something in the DMG about overland spotting distances?
Could have sworn that sets a RAW limit on how far two groups can be apart before they're aware of each other visually.You can always aim for things you can't see. Add the seeking property to kill any miss chance you might have. You still have line of sight, technically, since there's nothing blocking it.

Captnq

2013-11-13, 02:47 PM

Ram It.

Depends on your cosmology, of course.

I would go to the abyss. I would find a living plane. I would then take control of it. Mind control, become the living infinite plane, a REALLY good magic jar... something. Your call.

Then, I would have the living plane climb out of the abyss and ram the plane of water. Two infinite 1,2,3 dimension, yet finite 4,5 dimensional objects ramming one another should do SOMETHING unpleasant to the contents of both.

What happens? I'd go with planar compression myself. Both dimensions stop being 5 dimensional and become 4 dimensional for a while. One more good smack from another 5 dimensional plane and you could get it down to three dimensions. Then at that point the whole plane stops being magical. That would kill everything inside it that depends on magic. At the very least every god trapped inside becomes mortal.

Then you just need to keep ramming it with other planes until it becomes 0 dimensional. Then pick it up and toss it in a sphere of annihilation.

See? Simple.

Captnq

2013-11-13, 03:06 PM

Oh.

It's so obvious.

If a plane in the abyss can become alive, make the plane of elemental water "live" then make it really depressed and have it commit suicide.

Captnq

2013-11-13, 03:13 PM

asnys

2013-11-13, 03:16 PM

Oh! Wait wait wait!

HERE (http://youtu.be/5xdbPhnfFEI?t=27s).

Just change the laws of gravity from subjective to objective. An infinite amount of matter as dense as water will instantly undergo gravitational collapse if you change gravity from subjective to objective. It will become an infinite number of black holes.

That depends on the plane's geometric structure - what kind of infinity it is. If it's just a flat volume, infinite in all directions - diffeomorphic to R^3 - then the gravitational attraction of the water will all perfectly balance each other out, meaning there would effectively be no gravity at all. I think that or something like it is probably the most likely outcome...