Master of Many Forms, Divine Minion, earliest entry and Wildshape

[Ansem]

So, cheese besides, what is the earliest way to obtain the Master of Many Forms PRC.
This could arguably be first level or second, else its 5 for both the Ranger variant (yes.... the alternate feature states you get the new one at the intended level, not the level of tradeoff and since Druid gains it at 5, you lose combat styles and also gain it at 5) and the Druid.
Now, Wild Shape or any alternate form of it that functions as Wild Shape is still Wild Shape and therefor stacks for determining duration and HD and all uses granted of it also stack.
Bear Warrior would not stack for instance since it refers to Polymorph, however a Totem Druid and a Wildshape ranger would actually and as I am writing this example that could be a damn good thing actually (Totem Druid grants 2 levels earlier dire forms and Wild Shape would grant access to animals in general) stack in terms of WS usage.

Now next to the point of the Divine Minion, arguably this template would not qualify you for MoMF due to the following:

Special: Wild shape class feature.
Since Divine Minion is a template and therefor it grants its own Wild Shape ability as a racial trait people say this does not qualify.
However..... description-wise this is wrong.

Effects do not stack, you cant use magic weapon on the +1 masterwork longsword, the damage bonus wont stack.
You cant cast Owls wisdom twice and have double the effect.
You cant wear two items that both grant +2 strength and get +4 strength.
Ergo, these effects are considered the same.
This is also true for Wild Shape, since its the same effect BUT the effect itself states that it levels and grows on as the Ranger/Druid example puts forward.

So, knowing this on to the next step.

Fast Wild Shape (Su): A divine minion can wild shape as an 11th-level druid into one or more animal forms that depend on the deity it serves (divine minions of Set also have a vermin form). The divine minion can use this ability at will, can change form as a free action, and can spend time in animal form indefinitely. They prefer to keep their shapechanging abilities secret so that they can use them to surprise their enemies in combat. Unlike a druid, minions can use this ability even if they're wearing metal armor.
It literally states that Fast Wild Shape per the racial ability from the template, functions as per the Class ability from the Druid class as a lvl 11 Druid except the changes mentioned, so for the rest besides uses per day and the action it costs to transform, it is the Wild Shape class feature of a Druid.
Arguably this could net you into prestige from lvl 1-10 as MoMF because if you go Human you get a lvl 1 feat and lvl 1 bonus feat, depending on the order you levelup (which are obscure in general) some state you choose Abilities, Race, Class, Feats, Skills, rest of the gear and some state Race, Abilities, Feats, Class, Skills, rest of the gear.

So lets assume things are not THAT sunny-side up and expect the DM to make you choose a base class at first, taking a level in Totem Druid grants you wild shape at lvl 1 (Totem Shape again functions as Wild Shape except for the limited form you may take!, good to know, also solves potential rabble about not having Wild Shape as class feature for pesky DM, but thats another debate)
This would mean that you can use Wild Shape with a limit of 1/day, 12HD and 12 hour duration, the Druid Wild Shape and Druid Level stack with the Racial class feature functioning as a lvl 11 Druid.
Meaning you can go Human/Divine minion; Totem Druid1/Master of Many Forms 10 and become a Stone Golem.

So, cheese aside, how correct is this analysis.

[bekeleven]

ok:

Now, Wild Shape or any alternate form of it that functions as Wild Shape is still Wild Shape and therefor stacks for determining duration and HD and all uses granted of it also stack.

First of all, unless there's a specific clause for it, I don't think there's a reason why multiple wild shapes would stack for determining duration, HD and uses. This is not explained in the polymorph spell, in the alternate form ability, or in the druid entry. A Druid 5 / WS Ranger 5 would have the wild shape of a 5th level druid, twice, not the WS of a 10th level druid once.


Effects do not stack, you cant use magic weapon on the +1 masterwork longsword, the damage bonus wont stack.
You cant wear two items that both grant +2 strength and get +4 strength.Unless they provide different bonus types, e.g. an enhancement bonus and an insight bonus. Masterwork doesn't provide a damage bonus, only an attack bonus. And the only reason it doesn't stack with magic weapon is because both are enhancement, not due to some intrinsic property of bonuses themselves.



This is also true for Wild Shape, since its the same effect BUT the effect itself states that it levels and grows on as the Ranger/Druid example puts forward.
I don't understand what this is saying.


The Divine Minion cheese hinges on the exact wording of the template. Let me quote the MoMF Bible (http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-general/threads/1060931):


So if your DM doesn't step in, you can start with this template at character level 2 (whatever 1 + LA 1 from the template) and thus take your first MMF level at level 3.
The main rule argument against that is that wild shape gained from a template is not a "class feature" as the prerequisites of the MMF demand. The reply usually is that you get the ability to "wild shape as an 11th-level druid", not just like one, so it could mean you get the druids class ability.(emphasis mine)

I'm not familiar with Totem Druid, which I understand is from Dragon, but I don't see any way to get 12 HD free wild shaping at ECL 2. As said before, I see no evidence that wild shapes arbitrarily stack.

[Ansem]

P48 from UA:
Identical class features should stack if gained
from multiple versions of the same class (except for spellcasting,
which is always separate).


Any form of Wild Shape always functions per Druid, even with the restrictions.
This also means that Divine Minion qualifies here, per rules.
DM can veto it for being cheese and powerful, but not because it's not allowed per the rules.
It even specifically states that it uses a class feature as the class.

[bekeleven]

Even assuming we're using UA variant rules, and assuming that wild shape is two versions "of the same class" when one's off a template and the abilities have different names, and assuming we're stacking two abilities that have different HD limits, actions to use, allowed forms, and durations...

The druid class doesn't even have WS until you've it 5 in it. So in this hypothetical scenario, you can wild shape into 16HD forms of, say, baboons, hawks, lions, leopards, or bison, once you hit druid 5. Unfortunately, since there are no examples of these animals with higher than 11 HD (even using the controversial advanced animal form trick), you've just traded away a druid's wild shape for literally nothing. Congratulations, you've moved the druid from tier 1 to tier 1.*

Or are you saying that the second-gained ability would stack with the first one's favorable duration, use activation and HD limits but magically pick up the second one's forms rules? Because it looks to me like, if everything else is accepted as canon, the second one would just literally modify the level of MDM's effective druid level for wild shapes.

*Exception: you could use Nephthys to transform into huge constrictor snakes, since they didn't bother to specify snake size when only one statblock fit into the HD limits. So under 1 minion form, you gain 1 new form, that of the CR5 snake.

[Coelhoverd]

Page 59 (Complete Adventurer): Improved Wild Shape (class feature)
"A master of many forms knows how to use HER wild shape ability to assume a wider range of forms".
"The size limit of a shapes she can assume also increase as she gains levels".

Page 59 (Complete Adventurer, Errata): Improved Wild Shape (class feature) Add the following text to the end of the improved wild shape ability description: "The master of many forms’ class levels stack with other class levels that grant wild shape for the purpose of determining the maximum Hit Dice of a form."

It clearly point that the MoMF ability is a enlargement of a previous wild shape ability in terms of size, form, additional HD, and frequency, but enlargement on frequency means nothing for a Divine Minion, since it's already at will.

Page 65: Nature’s Warrior Wilding Ability (class feature)
"The nature’s warrior’s class levels stack with other class levels that grant wild shape for the purpose of determining the maximum Hit Dice of a form".

Same for the Nature's Warrior, bot only in therms of HD.

I see no way Druid and Ranger levels would stack before you reach 5th level in both classes.

[Twurps]

Master of many forms states: "The master of many forms' class levels stack with other class levels that grant wild shape for the purpose of determining the maximum Hit Dice of a form."

The divine minion doesn't have class levels, so MoMF doesn't stack with it.

I think you might be able to use divine minion for early entry (haven't fully rules lawyered it yet), but that would just cost you 1 or 2 levels (1LA, maybe 1base) that do not stack with divine minion.

So a divine minion (base 1) MoMF5 can:
-wildshape like a 11th level druid into the animal of its deity.
-Wildshape into the forms that MoMF grants, to a max of 5HD

If the base class was druid, then the base class would stack from the moment you gain wildshape at lvl5.