Ripptor
2013-11-11, 07:53 AM
Alright, I've seen a LOT of these 'types' of questions, but I'm at a level of gestalted nuance here that I cannot seem to get a complete answer on without specifically asking. So here goes.
I have a Dire Wolf with only one Natural Attack: Bite.
Dire Wolf has Trip(Ex), meaning if his Bite hits, he gets a Trip attempt.
Dire Wolf is a familiar with Multiattack, so he gets a second Bite at -5 penalty.
Dire Wolf's only natural weapon is Bite, giving it a +1.5 Str bonus to damage.
Natural Weapons
In general, a creature attacks once with each natural weapon it has. For most monsters, that will be two claws and a bite (or the other way around). Decide which of the monster's attacks is it's primary weapon. A monster may have two or more primary weapons if it has two or more of the same natural attack-for example, a Treant attacks with two slams, one for each limb, and both are primary natural weapons.
Primary weapons use a creature's full attack bonus, no matter how many primary weapons it has. The monster applies it's full Strength bonus on damage rolls with it's primary natural weapons, or 1-1/2 times it's Strength bonus on damage rolls if the monster has only one primary natural weapon (For example, a wolf's bite).
All other natural weapons are secondary attacks. Reduce the creature's attack bonus by 5 for all such attacks, no matter how many there are. Creatures with the Multiattack feat take only a -2 penalty on secondary attacks. A monster applies half his Strength bonus on damage rolls with it's secondary natural weapons.
...
Natural Weapons and Manufactured Weapons
If a creature has both a manufactured weapon and natural weapons, it usually uses it's manufactured weapon as a primary attack (and receives multiple attacks with that weapon, it it's base attack bonus is +6 or higher), and uses it's natural weapons as secondary attacks (-5 penalty on attack rolls, and 1/2 Strength bonus on damage rolls). While a humanoid fighting with two weapons takes a -2 penalty (or worse) on it's primary attack, a monster fighting with a hand-held weapon and a natural weapon at the same time does not take this penalty-the natural weapon is a secondary attack, and that is all.
Dire Wolf is gestalted with levels of Monk, giving him Greater Flurry.
Greater Flurry is unarmed attacks only, which can be accompanied, but not combined with, Natural Attacks.
Can a monk who has natural weapon attacks (such as a centaur monk) attack unarmed and still use his natural weapons? For example, let’s say he’s a 4th-level monk. Can he use a flurry of blows and attack at +5/+5/+0 unarmed (plus other bonuses) and then at +0/+0 for 2 hooves?
If the creature normally is allowed to make both weapon attacks and natural weapon attacks as part of the same full attack routine, the monk can do the same (making unarmed strikes in place of weapon attacks). Since a centaur can make two hoof attacks in addition to his longsword attack, a centaur monk can make two hoof attacks in addition to his unarmed strike attack (or attacks, depending on his base attack bonus). The monk can’t use his natural weapon attacks as part of a flurry of blows, but he can make natural weapon attacks in addition to his flurry. Such attacks suffer the same –2 penalty as the monk’s flurry attacks in addition to the normal –5 penalty for secondary natural attacks.
An 4th-level centaur monk has a base attack bonus of +7 (+4 from his 4 monstrous humanoid Hit Dice, and +3 from his 8 monk levels). If he performs a flurry of blows, he makes three unarmed strikes, at +5/+5/+0. He can add two hoof attacks at –2/–2 (–5 as secondary weapons, and –2 from the flurry).
If a creature with multiple natural attacks (such as the standard two claws and a bite array) takes levels of monk, how do flurry of blows and its natural attack progression interact?
You can’t use a natural weapon (claw, bite, or whatever) as part of a flurry of blows—only unarmed strikes and special monk weapons can be used in a flurry of blows.
If a creature can use one of its natural weapons as a secondary attack in conjunction with manufactured weapon attacks, it can do the same with that natural weapon in conjunction with a flurry of blows. Any penalty assessed on attacks by the flurry of blows would also apply to the natural weapon attack.
For example, a typical lizardfolk can attack with a club and its bite as part of a full attack. Normally, a creature would take a –5 penalty on an attack roll made with a secondary weapon, but since the lizardfolk has Multiattack, the penalty on the attack roll is reduced to –2 and adds only half the lizardfolk’s Strength bonus on the damage roll.
If it were a 1st-level monk, it could make a flurry of blows (using unarmed strikes, not claw attacks), then add a bite attack as a secondary attack. Each unarmed strike would have a –2 penalty (from flurry of blows), and the bite attack would have a –4 penalty (–2 from flurry of blows and –2 from being a secondary weapon, reduced from –5 by Multiattack).
The secondary attacks are not required to occur last, and can be ordered as desired.
Now where did I put that quote?
Dire Wolf has Improved Trip, meaning that on a successful Trip, he gets a followup attack.
No Infinite trip loops allowed.
Ex)
Successful Bite -> Receive Trip Attempt
Successful Trip -> Receive Followup Attack
Successful Bite -> Receive Trip Attempt
Impossible Trip, already prone. Receive nothing.
It is advantageous to Trip first, in order to lower AC for all other attacks.
...
Q1: So, how does the attack progression go, if one wants to Bite first, and Flurry second, for optimal damage? Assume BAB +12 and Str Mod +14.
A1 The Bite attack can happen first, even though it is a secondary attack. It takes a -2 penalty (Multiattack), and reduces it's bonus damage to 0.5 Str.
Full Attack:
Bite +24 (1d8+7), Trip Attempt(?), Bite(?) +24 (1d8+7);
then Flurry +26/+26/+26/+21/+16 (1d8+14)
...
Q2: The creature was given a second bite attack, however. Does this stack in as well, receiving both the -5 second Bite attack, as well as the -2 penalty for a secondary natural weapon (reduced to -2)?
A1: If so, it would look something like this:
Full Attack:
Bite +24 (1d8+7), Trip Attempt(?), Bite(?) +24 (1d8+7);
Bite +19 (1d8+7), Trip Attempt(?), Bite(?) +19 (1d8+7);
then Flurry +26/+26/+26/+21/+16 (1d8+14)
...
Q3: With Tripping being of significant importance to potential damage output(Lower AC and an Extra Attack), it would be perhaps more beneficial if the Bite could remain the primary attack (and with such a high Str mod, reducing the damage bonus from +1.5 Str to +0.5 Str is a decent loss). Is it possible to make the Bite attack primary, and the Flurry secondary? How would that look?
A3: Entirely unsure. Would the Flurry be considered off-handed?
As a baseline, moving the -2 penalty to attack onto the flurry would look like this:
Full Attack:
Bite +26 (1d8+21), Trip Attempt(?), Bite(?) +26 (1d8+21);
Bite +21 (1d8+21), Trip Attempt(?), Bite(?) +21 (1d8+21);
then Flurry +24/+24/+24/+19/+14 (1d8+7)
But this is just a guess. One can see the potential for significantly more damage here, however, so something like this is probably what we're looking to end up with. A 10% higher chance to connect with the Bite attacks, +14 damage per bite attack (up to 3 for a net +42 gain), and assuming a successful trip, a 20% higher chance to hit vs. prone more than compensates for the 10% lower chance to hit from the off-hand flurry penalty and 7 less damage per strike (up to 5 for a net -35 loss).
...
Please let me know what you think, as the rules are murky and hotly debated on issues surrounding these points, even in cases that are... less convoluted than mine. Thanks for your time, and hopefully your input!
I have a Dire Wolf with only one Natural Attack: Bite.
Dire Wolf has Trip(Ex), meaning if his Bite hits, he gets a Trip attempt.
Dire Wolf is a familiar with Multiattack, so he gets a second Bite at -5 penalty.
Dire Wolf's only natural weapon is Bite, giving it a +1.5 Str bonus to damage.
Natural Weapons
In general, a creature attacks once with each natural weapon it has. For most monsters, that will be two claws and a bite (or the other way around). Decide which of the monster's attacks is it's primary weapon. A monster may have two or more primary weapons if it has two or more of the same natural attack-for example, a Treant attacks with two slams, one for each limb, and both are primary natural weapons.
Primary weapons use a creature's full attack bonus, no matter how many primary weapons it has. The monster applies it's full Strength bonus on damage rolls with it's primary natural weapons, or 1-1/2 times it's Strength bonus on damage rolls if the monster has only one primary natural weapon (For example, a wolf's bite).
All other natural weapons are secondary attacks. Reduce the creature's attack bonus by 5 for all such attacks, no matter how many there are. Creatures with the Multiattack feat take only a -2 penalty on secondary attacks. A monster applies half his Strength bonus on damage rolls with it's secondary natural weapons.
...
Natural Weapons and Manufactured Weapons
If a creature has both a manufactured weapon and natural weapons, it usually uses it's manufactured weapon as a primary attack (and receives multiple attacks with that weapon, it it's base attack bonus is +6 or higher), and uses it's natural weapons as secondary attacks (-5 penalty on attack rolls, and 1/2 Strength bonus on damage rolls). While a humanoid fighting with two weapons takes a -2 penalty (or worse) on it's primary attack, a monster fighting with a hand-held weapon and a natural weapon at the same time does not take this penalty-the natural weapon is a secondary attack, and that is all.
Dire Wolf is gestalted with levels of Monk, giving him Greater Flurry.
Greater Flurry is unarmed attacks only, which can be accompanied, but not combined with, Natural Attacks.
Can a monk who has natural weapon attacks (such as a centaur monk) attack unarmed and still use his natural weapons? For example, let’s say he’s a 4th-level monk. Can he use a flurry of blows and attack at +5/+5/+0 unarmed (plus other bonuses) and then at +0/+0 for 2 hooves?
If the creature normally is allowed to make both weapon attacks and natural weapon attacks as part of the same full attack routine, the monk can do the same (making unarmed strikes in place of weapon attacks). Since a centaur can make two hoof attacks in addition to his longsword attack, a centaur monk can make two hoof attacks in addition to his unarmed strike attack (or attacks, depending on his base attack bonus). The monk can’t use his natural weapon attacks as part of a flurry of blows, but he can make natural weapon attacks in addition to his flurry. Such attacks suffer the same –2 penalty as the monk’s flurry attacks in addition to the normal –5 penalty for secondary natural attacks.
An 4th-level centaur monk has a base attack bonus of +7 (+4 from his 4 monstrous humanoid Hit Dice, and +3 from his 8 monk levels). If he performs a flurry of blows, he makes three unarmed strikes, at +5/+5/+0. He can add two hoof attacks at –2/–2 (–5 as secondary weapons, and –2 from the flurry).
If a creature with multiple natural attacks (such as the standard two claws and a bite array) takes levels of monk, how do flurry of blows and its natural attack progression interact?
You can’t use a natural weapon (claw, bite, or whatever) as part of a flurry of blows—only unarmed strikes and special monk weapons can be used in a flurry of blows.
If a creature can use one of its natural weapons as a secondary attack in conjunction with manufactured weapon attacks, it can do the same with that natural weapon in conjunction with a flurry of blows. Any penalty assessed on attacks by the flurry of blows would also apply to the natural weapon attack.
For example, a typical lizardfolk can attack with a club and its bite as part of a full attack. Normally, a creature would take a –5 penalty on an attack roll made with a secondary weapon, but since the lizardfolk has Multiattack, the penalty on the attack roll is reduced to –2 and adds only half the lizardfolk’s Strength bonus on the damage roll.
If it were a 1st-level monk, it could make a flurry of blows (using unarmed strikes, not claw attacks), then add a bite attack as a secondary attack. Each unarmed strike would have a –2 penalty (from flurry of blows), and the bite attack would have a –4 penalty (–2 from flurry of blows and –2 from being a secondary weapon, reduced from –5 by Multiattack).
The secondary attacks are not required to occur last, and can be ordered as desired.
Now where did I put that quote?
Dire Wolf has Improved Trip, meaning that on a successful Trip, he gets a followup attack.
No Infinite trip loops allowed.
Ex)
Successful Bite -> Receive Trip Attempt
Successful Trip -> Receive Followup Attack
Successful Bite -> Receive Trip Attempt
Impossible Trip, already prone. Receive nothing.
It is advantageous to Trip first, in order to lower AC for all other attacks.
...
Q1: So, how does the attack progression go, if one wants to Bite first, and Flurry second, for optimal damage? Assume BAB +12 and Str Mod +14.
A1 The Bite attack can happen first, even though it is a secondary attack. It takes a -2 penalty (Multiattack), and reduces it's bonus damage to 0.5 Str.
Full Attack:
Bite +24 (1d8+7), Trip Attempt(?), Bite(?) +24 (1d8+7);
then Flurry +26/+26/+26/+21/+16 (1d8+14)
...
Q2: The creature was given a second bite attack, however. Does this stack in as well, receiving both the -5 second Bite attack, as well as the -2 penalty for a secondary natural weapon (reduced to -2)?
A1: If so, it would look something like this:
Full Attack:
Bite +24 (1d8+7), Trip Attempt(?), Bite(?) +24 (1d8+7);
Bite +19 (1d8+7), Trip Attempt(?), Bite(?) +19 (1d8+7);
then Flurry +26/+26/+26/+21/+16 (1d8+14)
...
Q3: With Tripping being of significant importance to potential damage output(Lower AC and an Extra Attack), it would be perhaps more beneficial if the Bite could remain the primary attack (and with such a high Str mod, reducing the damage bonus from +1.5 Str to +0.5 Str is a decent loss). Is it possible to make the Bite attack primary, and the Flurry secondary? How would that look?
A3: Entirely unsure. Would the Flurry be considered off-handed?
As a baseline, moving the -2 penalty to attack onto the flurry would look like this:
Full Attack:
Bite +26 (1d8+21), Trip Attempt(?), Bite(?) +26 (1d8+21);
Bite +21 (1d8+21), Trip Attempt(?), Bite(?) +21 (1d8+21);
then Flurry +24/+24/+24/+19/+14 (1d8+7)
But this is just a guess. One can see the potential for significantly more damage here, however, so something like this is probably what we're looking to end up with. A 10% higher chance to connect with the Bite attacks, +14 damage per bite attack (up to 3 for a net +42 gain), and assuming a successful trip, a 20% higher chance to hit vs. prone more than compensates for the 10% lower chance to hit from the off-hand flurry penalty and 7 less damage per strike (up to 5 for a net -35 loss).
...
Please let me know what you think, as the rules are murky and hotly debated on issues surrounding these points, even in cases that are... less convoluted than mine. Thanks for your time, and hopefully your input!