[PF] ORAdin vs oraDIN

[magotter]

Greetings playgrounders. I've an upcoming game, and we need a healer. So I flipped through grarrrg's oradin guide (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=257365) and I liked what I saw; great healing ability without sacrificing action economy, and I wrote one up. But after I got done, I found it a bit... lackluster, and felt it didn't have enough variety. I played around with it.... and played with it some more... and wound up with a build that is essentially the opposite end of the oradin spectrum.

Thus, I'd like to post both my original build style and a modified one here and get some feedback on how to make one or the other more viable and more tempting to play. So far, nothing regarding stats, race, feats, or class is set in stone. More than anything, I'm stuck for feat and gear choices. For either build, I'd like to focus on Crowd Control and maybe Tanking.

Our party currently consists of:
A Trip-focused Sandman Bard as a Face
A Skill-Monkey Rogue for Damage and Utility
A Fire-themed Sorcerer for more Damage and CC
A fourth person for who hasn't made any choice yet.

Basic breakdown of creation rules:
20-point buy
1st level
Drawbacks are allowed
"X of the Society," Campaign, and Regional Traits are not allowed.
Slow XP progression
No 3rd-party material on the PFSRD.com (d20pfsrd.com) site is allowed
No psionics

And now my two build ideas.
The original oraDIN (Oracle 4 / Paladin 16):
Schtick: I am the long arm of JUSTICE. High CON, Tanklike Armor, Racial Luck, and Divine Grace means I'm nigh unkillable, and can withstand just about any attack. Starting off, I perform minor tricks and CC spells to help the meleemancer thieves in my party. I attack with bows to make enemies think twice about advancing. I have precious little ability to cast, but healing doesn't even slow me down, leaving me free to maneuver and attack every round. If things get a little harrier, I can always Channel some bonus healing, but frankly my Lay on Hands should be enough. However, by the time I hit mid to high levels, my tank and trip tactics are likely to get old, and so I'm not sure how to circumvent it. Even with Paladin spells, I'm stuck in melee while the casters just summon hurricanes and stone walls to keep foes away.

Halfling, Worshipper of Abadar
S 10-2 / D 14+2 / C 14 / I 10 / W 8 / C 16+2
Favored Class Bonus: +1/2 HP per application of Lay on Hands

Traits:
Two-World Magic - gain Prestidigitaion on Oracle Spell List
Armor Espert - Reduce ACP by 1
Eyes and Ears... - +1 Perception, gain as a class skill

Progression:
Oracle 4 - No Archetype, Curse: Wolfscarred Face, Revelations: Life Link, Channel Energy (2d6)
Paladin 16 - No Archetype.

Feats:
(1) Fey Foundling
(3) Toughness


The ORAdin (Paladin 2 / Oracle 18):
Schtick: Aside from the two level dip into Paladin, I'm a pure caster. I have three different pools to draw heals from, and each pool uses up either a Swift, Move, or Standard Action. I prefer to utilize Energy Body rather than Lay on Hands for healing, using up a Move Action, and healing 1d6+2+(Oracle Level x 1.5) due to the Aasimar's Favored Class Bonus. This still leaves me a Standard to cast spells and a Swift to use Lay on Hands as well for some bonus healing. If I am really starting to get low on HP, I can still stop and use my Channel Energy for a burst heal, with Fey Foundling giving an exponential bonus to that. with 4 other people in the party I won't lose more than 20 HP a round due to Life Link, and by level 6 or 8 I should be able to recover this all day every day every round. I'm still at a loss for feats to make this really work. Even Fey Foundling, which boosts my Channeling greatly, is slightly wasted on Energy Body and Lay on Hands, which get a flat bonus instead of a Dice Bonus.With toughness, the ability to wear heavy armor, and high CON, I can tank the frontline, but I don't really know what to do out there except soak up hits.

Aasimar (Idylkin), worshipper of Abadar,
S 12 / D 14 / C 14+2 / I 10 / W 8 / C 16+2
Favored Class Bonus: add 1/2 Oracle Level to one revelation (Energy Body). There's no cap on this.

Traits:
Eyes and Ears... - +1 Perception, gain as class skill
Armor Expert - Reduce ACP by 1
Two-World Magic - gain Prestidigitation on Oracle list

Progression:
Paladin 2 - Archetype: Tranquil Guardian (aasimar, gain Touch of Serenity instead of Smite Evil, which progresses by character level and not class level)
Oracle 18 - Archetype: Enlightened Philosopher (Better Mystery Spells than Life, gain bonus INT at mid and high levels)

Mystery: Life
Curse: Haunted
Revelations:
(1) Life Link
(1) Energy Body (feat)
(3) Channel Energy
(7) Mental Acuity (forced to choose)
(13) Lifesense
(17) Enhanced Cures

Feats:
(1) - Fey Foundling
(3) - Extra Revelation (Energy Body)
(5) - Toughness
(7) -
(9) -

[Spore]

You could also go Paladin 2/Oracle 1/Paladin 17 with Hospitaler/Warrior of the Holy Light (although healing ALL the time probably gets old quickly, I prefer Sacred Servant plus Oath of Vengenance for additional spell support).

(1) Fey Foundling
(3) Extra Revelation (Life Link/Channel Energy)
(5) Toughness
(7) Antagonize (force enemies to attack you)
(9) Extra Mercy (+1d6 Lay on Hands if no mercy is triggered)
(11) Ultimate Mercy (free ress, prolly not worth a feat tho)

[grarrrg]

STUFF

I suppose I'm required to chime in about these at some point huh?
Well, I'll have to give a more thorough going over later.

Quick thoughts though:
Flexibility is one of the high points of an Oradin build.
The 'typical' Paladin Heavy build is partly due to how Lay on Hands has exponential gains, ever 2 levels of Paladin is another use and gives all uses an extra +1d6hp (+2 with Fey Foundling of course).

For your Paladin heavy build, one of your issues is being out-shined by the casters at higher levels, you might consider taking some Holy Vindicator (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/e-h/holy-vindicator) to give a boost to your Spell Casting, while still progressing your Channeling.


You could also go Paladin 2/Oracle 1/Paladin 17

Number of Life Links is equal to your levels of Oracle, so Oracle 3 is usually the rough minimum (depends on party size of course).

[Spore]

Number of Life Links is equal to your levels of Oracle, so Oracle 3 is usually the rough minimum (depends on party size of course).

Ugh, I forgot. Well, that frees up a feat at least.

[magotter]

The 'typical' Paladin Heavy build is partly due to how Lay on Hands has exponential gains, ever 2 levels of Paladin is another use and gives all uses an extra +1d6hp (+2 with Fey Foundling of course).
For your Paladin heavy build, one of your issues is being out-shined by the casters at higher levels, you might consider taking some Holy Vindicator (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/e-h/holy-vindicator) to give a boost to your Spell Casting, while still progressing your Channeling.


See, its funny you mention these two things, because it's what led me to make the oracle-heavy build. my first redraft had me taking Paladin 3 / Oracle 4 / Holy Vindicator 10, and finishing with 3 more levels of oracle. That would have made me effectively a level 15 oracle, and still had an 18 BAB. not bad stuff at all, and it would progress the hell out of my channeling. However, it didn't progress the really action-effecient Lay on Hands at all. And required a milquetoast feat for entry (not that I am tight on feats, mind you). So then I started to think about why I might need 18 BAB vs. the 15 an oracle'd get. Then I pondered why I needed Lay-on-Hands fueled Channeling when an Oracle could get it...... and, well, you can see why I slid more towards Oracle.

As for exponential gains, I won't deny adding Dice and Uses to Lay on Hands is the cornerstone of the paladin heavy build, but the Energy Body does also get exponential gain due to the aasimar's favored class bonus. normally I can, as a move action, heal 1d6+(Oracle Level) HP per round. I can keep it up for a number of round equal to my Oracle Level. and once per round I can confer this on others by either moving into them or having them move into me. But with the Favored Class Bonus, I am adding +1/2 to my effective Oracle Level, meaning this gets an exponential gain. At Oracle 2 I'm healing 1d6+3 instead of 1d6+2, and at Oracle 18 I'm healing 1d6+27 instead of 1d6+18. and of course, by 18 I can do it damn near all day long. Fey Foundling, while not great, still adds +2 to that, the lay on hands, the channeling, and cure spells as well, so that's an extra boost.

Don't get me wrong, Energy Body is not as great as Lay on Hands, and that is where I am stuck. I have to spend a standard to activate it, and if I wanna conserve it's use and turn it on/off multiple times in battle, that's eating actions (this is more a low-level problem than a high-level one). And I'm having to blow a Move Action that could be better spent repositioning when needed. But since I can still self-heal and cast using my standard, I don't think it's a total loss.

So, yeah, I'd really love to have both a Move and a Standard free to act as a Paladin. But at the same time, I just don't really know what the hell to do with those actions given the rest of my stats needed to ensure I can heal well and all day.

[The Random NPC]

Stuff

Technically, there isn't any progression past 20, so your level 18 Oradin is healing 1d6+20.

[HylianKnight]

Here's what you need to figure out - what do you like from each side of the build?

The original build essentially proposes a 3-level dip for a Healing-oriented Paladin, going 3 levels into Oracle for the Life Link ability and the second Channel Pool .

The innovation is NOT that you're the "best" healer. If that's what you're interested you're much better off just doing a straight Life Oracle, after all that's the whole purpose of the Life Mystery. Full Divine Spellcaster, revelations that help with healing, done.

The innovation is that by splitting between Paladin and Oracle in the first few levels, you can end up with a very competent character that can have a huge role in healing the party in combat without sucking himself/choosing the non-optimal play (3.5 mechanics means that, unless someone is literally about to die, it makes more sense to use your actions to killing the monster, rather than just spending your turn to partially undo their last one).

With that comes an assumption that the other thing your character is doing is being a Paladin. So if you want your character to be the best healer possible, and/or you don't have any interest in playing a martial character, than perhaps the 'Oradin' such as it is, isn't for you.

---

That being said playing around with Paladin/Oracle/Holy Vindicator combinations still yield a lot of customization if you do want to play an Oradin. The benefit is that the Vindicator is still, essentially, a Paladin. 10 Hit Points (super significant if you're trying to be an 'HP Battery') full BAB, cool combat abilities that focus on Channeling. That's what you're taking the HV levels for. So you could decide to make the Oradin the intro for trying out HV 10. Or you can use the Vindicator to make a GISH Hybrid for yourself. Oracle 4/Paladin 8/Holy Vindicator 8 looks like it'd be pretty cool, for example. Or one of the builds you have already, the choice is yours depending on what kind of character you want to play.