How to Fight Lycanthropes?

[Srasy]

My DM is running a lycanthropic adventure where most of the mooks we will fighting will be lycanthropes... What things besides the moon domain and silver weapons are effective against were creatures?

[Keneth]

Any type of energy. Fireballs are just as effective against lycans as silver weapons. Plus, any tactics that can shut down melee opponents generally also work against them.

[Psyren]

Spells. Their damage reduction won't do a thing to a lightning bolt. They also tend to have pretty weak will saves.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Are you sure? All lycan get Iron Will as a bonus feat, a wis bonus and if they are Dire anmal lycanthropes they get good will saves.

[Flickerdart]

Lycanthropes are by and large melee brutes that use natural weapons. Tactics that counter these will serve you well.

Anti-melee: Flight and difficult terrain are your friend. Battlefield control spells which stop movement will let you tear up the lycanthropes at a distance without any risks, as long as you can buy a bundle of silver arrows or use blast spells.

Anti-natural weapons: Natural attackers rely on a large amount of relatively weak attacks hitting in order to hurt you. Damage reduction is very useful here, as are spells like Fire Shield which punish multiple attacks.

[Psyren]

Are you sure? All lycan get Iron Will as a bonus feat, a wis bonus and if they are Dire anmal lycanthropes they get good will saves.

Looking at the statblocks, Will is still their lowest save even with all that, so yes.

[Big Fau]

The maneuvers Foehammer and Mountain Hammer both ignore DR, and Crusaders/Warblades are resistant to Lycanthropy due to their good saves. Incarnates and Totemists both have ways of dealing with Lycans in the form of soulmelds that don't focus on weapons/natural weapons. Dragonfire Adepts can take on a large number of enemies with their breath weapons (if you have Entangling Exhalation).


And any full caster will demolish a lycanthrope if built properly (although the Healer has to use Exalted spells to do so).

[Srasy]

All the players are lycanthropes too we have a were murder of crows rogue were sewerym grappler and a were otter cleric
What is a good way to get through dr silver with natural weapons cheaply?

[Flickerdart]

All the players are lycanthropes too we have a were murder of crows rogue were sewerym grappler and a were otter cleric
The lack of punctuation made me read "wee murder of crows" and now I have a very adorable yet frightening image in my head.

[Big Fau]

All the players are lycanthropes too we have a were murder of crows rogue were sewerym grappler and a were otter cleric
What is a good way to get through dr silver with natural weapons cheaply?

There's a ring in the MiC that should do it. Forgot the name though.

[Srasy]

All I see is something to go through magic, incorpiability, and adamantine dr and metalline(which is to expensive)

[Urpriest]

In the whole issue with saving throws, while Will is usually the lowest, Lycanthropes in general will have high saves for their CR since they can get lots and lots of HD. Straight damage is probably better, it's tough to get armor that works in all forms.

[Yogibear41]

Silver Fang feat lets all your natural attacks count as silver, there is also a 1st level spell in BOED I think? That makes natural attacks count as silver.

Also fireballs. :smallsmile:

[Pickford]

Srasy:

All the players are lycanthropes too we have a were murder of crows rogue were sewerym grappler and a were otter cleric
What is a good way to get through dr silver with natural weapons cheaply?

Lycanthropes are humanoids/giants that add animal HD as a particular animal. Swarms are a subtype, not an animal type, and so no such thing exists as a 'were-murder of crows'; One cannot even be a were-crow unless it is within 1 size category of the base creature...which seems unlikely in that crows (ravens) are tiny, which means at best one could be a were-crow halfling.

Incidentally, a Lycanthrope doesn't gain the animal type, it gains the Shapechanger subtype...your type remains humanoid.

All that being said, presumably your DM is house-ruling that this is cool, but you still have a problem:

Alternate Form (Su) means all your gear gets subsumed into your body. When this happens, the gear, it doesn't function. i.e. Silver Fang? Useless.

[lunar2]

Srasy:


Lycanthropes are humanoids/giants that add animal HD as a particular animal. Swarms are a subtype, not an animal type, and so no such thing exists as a 'were-murder of crows'; One cannot even be a were-crow unless it is within 1 size category of the base creature...which seems unlikely in that crows (ravens) are tiny, which means at best one could be a were-crow halfling.

Incidentally, a Lycanthrope doesn't gain the animal type, it gains the Shapechanger subtype...your type remains humanoid.

All that being said, presumably your DM is house-ruling that this is cool, but you still have a problem:

Alternate Form (Su) means all your gear gets subsumed into your body. When this happens, the gear, it doesn't function. i.e. Silver Fang? Useless.

a murder of crows is a tiny animal (swarm). you can in fact be a halfling were murder of crows, since the swarm is classified by RAW as a single creature of the animal type. the swarm subtype doesn't negate the animal type.

[ArqArturo]

The lack of punctuation made me read "wee murder of crows" and now I have a very adorable yet frightening image in my head.

Gnome lycans?.

[Doc_Maynot]

Also, the gear doesn't get subsumed. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#alternateForm)


Gnome lycans?.
Also, all I can think of now are werebadger gnomes. Stupid entertaining 4th edition shorts.

[Pickford]

a murder of crows is a tiny animal (swarm). you can in fact be a halfling were murder of crows, since the swarm is classified by RAW as a single creature of the animal type. the swarm subtype doesn't negate the animal type.

Except a swarm is a subtype, not a base animal form.

The base animal form would, in this case, be a raven. Swarms are composed of individuals, the MM makes it clear they are just a method for the DM to handle a large number of individuals at one time.

The swarm subtype simply indicates that you're using the wrong stat block.

Presumably you'd have to show how a raven is going to wear any of the gear...maybe a ring, but everything else would fall off. edit: for subsumed, was thinking of polymorph subschool

Ah, silver fang is a feat, not an item. Of course it has group specific pre-requisites...so there's that.

[lunar2]

Except a swarm is a subtype, not a base animal form.

The base animal form would, in this case, be a raven. Swarms are composed of individuals, the MM makes it clear they are just a method for the DM to handle a large number of individuals at one time.

The swarm subtype simply indicates that you're using the wrong stat block.

Presumably you'd have to show how a raven is going to wear any of the gear...maybe a ring, but everything else would fall off. edit: for subsumed, was thinking of polymorph subschool

Ah, silver fang is a feat, not an item. Of course it has group specific pre-requisites...so there's that.

but nothing states that lycanthrope is incompatible with subtypes. that is an assumption on your part.

RAW, a were murder of crows does work simply because there is a stat block for a murder of crows separate from the crow statblock. swarm isn't a template applied to a base creature, it is a separate creature by RAW.

that and besides, having the halfling burst into a swarm of crows is too cool to pass up. there's no mechanical reasons to disallow it. it's certainly no more powerful than any other lycanthrope that gives a fly speed. and the fluff of a were swarm isn't much weirder than the fluff of any other lycanthrope.

[Pickford]

but nothing states that lycanthrope is incompatible with subtypes. that is an assumption on your part.

RAW, a were murder of crows does work simply because there is a stat block for a murder of crows separate from the crow statblock. swarm isn't a template applied to a base creature, it is a separate creature by RAW.

that and besides, having the halfling burst into a swarm of crows is too cool to pass up. there's no mechanical reasons to disallow it. it's certainly no more powerful than any other lycanthrope that gives a fly speed. and the fluff of a were swarm isn't much weirder than the fluff of any other lycanthrope.

Well, no, the written rules only actually have what is in the books. Were-crows don't exist there, and were-group of crows most certainly don't.

[fluke1993]

The rules do, however have rules for creating new were-animals and a lycanthropic [swarm] murder of crows is valid by those rules.

[Pickford]

The rules do, however have rules for creating new were-animals and a lycanthropic [swarm] murder of crows is valid by those rules.

Except you wouldn't gain the subtype, only the type. Thus were-crow, not were-murder of crows.

Also, it seems painfully obvious from the 'not swarms' of this article that you're arguing both against RAI and RAW: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20040621a

That the murder of crows swarm didn't 'exist' when the lycanthrope was written would explain the discrepancy.

[lunar2]

Except you wouldn't gain the subtype, only the type. Thus were-crow, not were-murder of crows.

Also, it seems painfully obvious from the 'not swarms' of this article that you're arguing both against RAI and RAW: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20040621a

That the murder of crows swarm didn't 'exist' when the lycanthrope was written would explain the discrepancy.

no, you would still be a were murder of crows, you just wouldn't have the swarm subtype. you lose the swarm traits, but keep the traits specific to murder of crows. and that's assuming you don't gain any subtypes the base animal has. the rules don't say you don't, they just don't say you do, either. meaning it's up to DM adjudication, there is no default RAW answer.