pathfinder: best/most interesting debuffing/curse class

[Dimcair]

Simple. With Pathfinder core classes, what is the best debuffing, cursing, save or suck spell throwing class to play?
(no multiclassing though)

greetz

[Keneth]

...witch? :smallconfused:

[Dimcair]

...witch? :smallconfused:

Would have been my guess, do you mind explaining yourself? :amused: Can you get her DCs higher than other classes' or is it just quantity (spamming).

[peacenlove]

3rd + level antipaladin. Unique effect in pathfinder by removing immunity to fear. If you have access to 3rd edition material, pair it with Imperious command and Never Outnumbered for Hardcore intimidation.
Also with a conductive weapon he can transmit Cruelties which bring into play various debuffs, as well as dealing respectable damage.

Needs ranged options however.

[Kudaku]

"Debuffing, cursing, save or suck spell throwing class" could actually replace the class description for the PF Witch. In addition to a spell list that's a big fan of 'save or suck' spells they get Hexes, an infinitely reusable toolbox for making the DM throw his dice at you when you explain that he's going to have to roll four saving throws (and use the worst roll) against your Sleep hex.

The wizard can also SoS with the best of them, but you did ask for most interesting as well as best, and... Well, wizards can do anything.

[Spore]

Witch, Dual Cursed Oracle, Bad Touch Clerics.

[Psyren]

I'll add Hexcrafter Magus to the list, especially since they can attack and curse at the same time.

Antipaladin isn't that impressive because it removes fear immunity but not mind-affecting immunity.

[Manly Man]

Bad Touch (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xat1GVnl8-k) Clerics.

Sorry, I couldn't help myself. :smallredface:


I'll add Hexcrafter Magus to the list, especially since they can attack and curse at the same time.

Antipaladin isn't that impressive because it removes fear immunity but not mind-affecting immunity.

Gonna side with Psy here on the Hexcrafter. They're loads of fun to play on top of all that, though Witches have a much higher ceiling with their debuffing potential, if you ask me.

[Dimcair]

Well I shall look into both!

Thank you

[Eldariel]

The Wizard, I reckon. Most of Wizard's best combat spells are debuffs of some kind, the summon-list has an insanely wide access to different debuffs at quite decent DCs (e.g. Succubus at SMVI has a DC 23 ability), you can take the Divination special ability "Foresight" for level 8 ability to use a debuffing aura & you can tool a familiar for the job.

But even with no effort put into it, starting from level 1 the usual suspects like Grease, Ray of Enfeeblement, Color Spray, etc. are brutal debuffs. Then you just range up from there with Glitterdust, Web, Pyrotechnics, Slow, Stinking Cloud, Solid Fog, Black Tentacles, Bestow Curse, Enervation, Wizards have every single types of debuffs and tons of abilities that can "grant" curses to people. Witch is also pretty high up there but between Planar Bindings, Simulacrums, etc. - the true power spells (which tend to provide powerful spellcasting underlings which are optimal for debuffing) - I'd say Wizard ultimately comes out ahead.

[Dimcair]

Like!


The Wizard, I reckon. Most of Wizard's best combat spells are debuffs of some kind, the summon-list has an insanely wide access to different debuffs at quite decent DCs (e.g. Succubus at SMVI has a DC 23 ability) (...)I'd say Wizard ultimately comes out ahead.

Haven't even thought of that! That would combine two very interesting playstyles, and Summon Monster x is much more versatile than if you have just prepared sleep, bestow curse or similar stuff!

[Raven777]

"Debuffing, cursing, save or suck spell throwing class" could actually replace the class description for the PF Witch. In addition to a spell list that's a big fan of 'save or suck' spells they get Hexes, an infinitely reusable toolbox for making the DM throw his dice at you when you explain that he's going to have to roll four saving throws (and use the worst roll) against your Sleep hex.

I'm interested in learning how to pull that off.

[Psyren]

I'm interested in learning how to pull that off.

He's combining it with Misfortune + Accursed Hex. The four rolls aren't all on the same round though, it's 2 this round (use worst) then 2 next round (use worst.) It does take a while to set up - against most monsters you're better off just hitting them with Slumber to begin with, but against something particularly nasty it can be worth slathering on the debuffs like this.

[Kudaku]

Actually I was thinking about a Swift action (Quicken Spell) Ill Omen followed up with a SoS on a target affected by the Misfortune hex. Misfortune and Ill Omen both require you to roll two d20s on your next roll, so my GM simply added it all up to four rolls - with the way multipliers work in PF you could probably make a good argument that you ought to be rolling 3 instead of 4 d20s.

I'm not sure how Accursed hex would interact with that but I'm sure it'd be interesting to see your GM's face by the end of it :smallbiggrin:

[Psyren]

Yeah I think it would be 3 rolls rather than 4 with Ill Omen + Misfortune.

Ill Omen looks like a nice choice for Spell Hex too if you want a backup Misfortune with scaling DC. And Accursed Hex would then affect all three of them.

[Keneth]

Witch is also pretty high up there but between Planar Bindings, Simulacrums, etc. - the true power spells (which tend to provide powerful spellcasting underlings which are optimal for debuffing) - I'd say Wizard ultimately comes out ahead.

If you use planar bindings and simulacra for debuffers, you're doing it wrong. Besides, bound outsiders are GM-dependent, and simulacra are expensive, so their power is relative at best.

Witches get almost all the cool debuff spells that wizards do, and a few that wizards don't, plus hexes. While in theory a wizard might look like they come ahead, in practice that is rarely the truth.

[Eldariel]

If you use planar bindings and simulacra for debuffers, you're doing it wrong. Besides, bound outsiders are GM-dependent, and simulacra are expensive, so their power is relative at best.

...no, you're not. Using weaker, extra spellcasters for heavy duty debuffs is pretty much exactly optimal. Sure, your planar bound monsters can occasionally rip someone apart but that's just when enemies pose little enough threat that you don't want to use any daily resources on killing them.

And Simulacrum's power is absolute; you can produce powerful spellcasters for the fraction of one major magic item's price. Planar Binding still compels the creature to service which is good enough. You can supplement this domination with additional spells if desired.

[Dimcair]

If you use planar bindings and simulacra for debuffers, you're doing it wrong.


Again, would you mind explaining us that a little bit instead of just telling him: "You are doing it wrong"?
Is he using the wrong spells for debuffs there or is the combination not good? I am somewhat lost there :smalleek:



Witches get almost all the cool debuff spells that wizards do, and a few that wizards don't, plus hexes. While in theory a wizard might look like they come ahead, in practice that is rarely the truth.

Is that your oppinion for debuffing specifically, or in general? (Basically can the Witch's spell list keep up with the wizzard's or not?)
It seems like the class to go, since practically throwing more dice involves more chances of failure, but if you have to limit yourself to debuffing only, a wizzard might be more interesting/fun to play in the long run. :smallsmile:

[Kudaku]

I'd suggest taking a look at the witch spell list -while it has some really, really nice options that wizards don't it's also much more specialized and lose out on many of the big league mover-spells that wizards get.

However Witches get hexes, which means there's always something to do - at low to medium levels wizards have to manage their spell slots closely while the witch can always throw in another hex for good measure.

[Keneth]

Using weaker, extra spellcasters for heavy duty debuffs is pretty much exactly optimal.

Do pray tell which bound outsiders you can wrangle and can effectively provide "heavy duty debuffs". A succubus? Yeah, good luck with that Charisma check as a wizard. And by the time you can bind one of them, a DC 23 isn't a big deal except for mooks. You're better off summoning it, at least that's free.

Called creatures are wonderful support casters, and some are quite capable bruisers, but debuffing is the primary caster's job, not some mook's.


And Simulacrum's power is absolute; you can produce powerful spellcasters for the fraction of one major magic item's price.

That's arguable, unless your GM lets you get away with "I make a simulacrum of a solar with half the HD, but all the abilities".

[Corlindale]

I'll just nth the Witch. Many hexes are at will debuffs, and their spell list is pretty nice too.

Ill Omen is a good candidate for Magical Lineage. The earlier you can start to quicken it, the better.

If you're just looking for pure DC optimization a sorceror could probably do better. Fey bloodline gives +2 to compulsion spell (many nice debuffs here) dcs from level 1. You can go crossblooded with Arcane for a further +2 at level 15 (but the penalty for crossblooded is harsh, so it's probably not really worth it). Combine with Kitsune race with their favored class bonus and you can get truly obscene dcs for compulsion spells. Combine with Persistent Spell metamagic and profit :smallsmile: