Team Tarquin vs Team Evil

[Parallel Pain]

I was wondering as someone who don't know any D&D rules
Who'd win?

Xykon
Redcloak
MitD (would he be fighting?)

vs

Tarquin
Malack
Laurin
Miron
Jacinda
Barbarian? Guy

All I know is 2 or 3 members of Team Tarquin seems to be more than capable of handling the entire OotS by themselves.

[The Pilgrim]

I didn't notice Redcloak had changed job from Cleric to Time Wizard.

This webcomic is becoming too Final Fantasy.

[Gusion]

I was wondering as someone who don't know any D&D rules
Who'd win?

Xykon
Redclock
MitD (would he be fighting?)

vs

Tarquin
Malack
Laurin
Miron
Jacinda
Barbarian? Guy

All I know is 2 or 3 members of Team Tarquin seems to be more than capable of handling the entire OotS by themselves.

Nobody can answer this question really, because nobody knows what the MitD actually is.

I will say, if you're going to include Malack you should include Tsukiko for Team Evil.

[Kornaki]

In terms of mechanics they are fairly balanced. Tarquin's team is approximately level 20 to 25 each - Redcloak would be overmatched in that fight in terms of level but is a primary caster so that's not a big deal. Xykon is something like level 28 or more so by challenge rating is somewhere between a very hard fight and suicide for Tarquin's team, but he will have trouble with action economy which is so important at this level.

If Mitd is as powerful as has been hinted at though he would just eat both parties and sleep it off at full power.

[Parallel Pain]

Nobody can answer this question really, because nobody knows what the MitD actually is.

I will say, if you're going to include Malack you should include Tsukiko for Team Evil.I suppose that could be another matchup.

Although I kind of wanted the match-up to be their original teams. Which Tsukiko isn't, but Malack is.

So how would the match up turn out if:
a) MitD doesn't fight

and/or

b) Tsukiko's included in Team Evil

[Ward.]

Nobody can answer this question really, because nobody knows what the MitD actually is.

I will say, if you're going to include Malack you should include Tsukiko for Team Evil.

Quoted for truth, we don't know enough about either side to say for sure but tarquin does have more high level allies.

[orrion]

All I know is 2 or 3 members of Team Tarquin seems to be more than capable of handling the entire OotS by themselves.

... Sure. Without their cleric, Roy starting out injured, and Belkar unable to do much of anything.

[Heksefatter]

Tarquin has already answered this. When villains fight, its a tossup.

That said, my money would be on Team Evil, if it was just the group members involved and not the respective empires.

[Gift Jeraff]

Xykon wins because he's my favorite

[Parallel Pain]

... Sure. Without their cleric, Roy starting out injured, and Belkar unable to do much of anything.Well Tarquin has shown just by himself he can fight the entire OotS minus V toe to toe if he has his axe.

[orrion]

Well Tarquin has shown just by himself he can fight the entire OotS minus V toe to toe if he has his axe.

Too bad his axe exploded and the Order is now familiar with his fighting style.

[The Oni]

So far, Tarquin has been shown fighting humanoids - mere mortals. Yes, Xykon is a very powerful sorcerer but let's not forget the important bit, the fact that he is also a lich. Tactics that work on humans don't work on liches. Weapons that work on humans don't bother liches. And Xykon wouldn't waste time talking or hold back based on familial attachments - he's gonna come in and swing for the fences, yeah?

[zimmerwald1915]

That said, my money would be on Team Evil, if it was just the group members involved and not the respective empires.
Hell, throw in the empires too. I'd bet money on Gobbotopia versus a coalition of Blood, Sweat and Tears, never mind each individually.

[Parallel Pain]

Too bad his axe exploded and the Order is now familiar with his fighting style.Doesn't change the fact he did it.

Also not part of current discussion.

[orrion]

Doesn't change the fact he did it.

Also not part of current discussion.

Um, you brought that up.

[Parallel Pain]

Hell, throw in the empires too. I'd bet money on Gobbotopia versus a coalition of Blood, Sweat and Tears, never mind each individually.Wasn't Gobbotopia made out of basically the original legions, so like 30k Hobgoblin troops?

[Parallel Pain]

Um, you brought that up.Ya. That Tarquin fought OotS minus V by himself toe to toe, and 2~3 from Team Tarquin can take on OotS.

So obviously Team Tarquin > OotS in power. What about Team Tarquin vs Team Evil?

[Mike Havran]

Wasn't Gobbotopia made out of basically the original legions, so like 30k Hobgoblin troops?I think the conquerors summoned their families or even entire tribes after the conquest was over.

[orrion]

Ya. That Tarquin fought OotS minus V by himself toe to toe, and 2~3 from Team Tarquin can take on OotS.

So obviously Team Tarquin > OotS in power. What about Team Tarquin vs Team Evil?

2-3 from Team Tarquin can take on a diminished OOTS. As I pointed out, no cleric, no Belkar, Roy started injured.


As for your topic, nobody knows. If you're asking who could stomp who in a fight where everyone is making optimum use of their abilities, then it usually depends on who gets initiative. Anything else and it's a crapshoot, and you'll never come to any meaningful conclusion. I suppose you can speculate all you want, but don't expect there to ever be a concrete answer.

[Parallel Pain]

I think the conquerors summoned their families or even entire tribes after the conquest was over.Huh, based on http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0197.html I'd thought the 30k included their families. But maybe not I guess, and allies still fair enough.

Still, Gobbotopia is basically a city-state. I don't see how it could compete with 3 empires.

And the original fight?

[Matt620]

Smart money would go to Team Tarquin. Tarquin has enough magic boosting stuff to take a few spells from Xykon. Redcloak would be pretty much down for the count between Jacinda (Sneak Attack) and, Miron (Horrid Wilting). One sorcerer, even an epic level one, couldn't handle all of Team Tarquin.

I doubt the MitD would fight at all. He's not a fighter, and doesn't seem to care for Redcloak any following his interaction with O-Chul.

[zimmerwald1915]

I think the conquerors summoned their families or even entire tribes after the conquest was over.
I'm pretty sure the opposite is true. Xykon and Redcloak mention that they mobilized ninety percent of the hobgoblins living in the fortress-city. That said, there has clearly been immigration of goblinoids unaffiliated with the original conquerors since the conquest, including Goblin Dan, which more than makes up the difference.

That being said, I'd still bet on the nation willing to mobilize ninety percent of its population of tens of thousands for a campaign over the nation that measures significant mobilizations in the hundreds of troops.

[Gusion]

I suppose that could be another matchup.

Although I kind of wanted the match-up to be their original teams. Which Tsukiko isn't, but Malack is.

So how would the match up turn out if:
a) MitD doesn't fight

and/or

b) Tsukiko's included in Team Evil

There are just too many "it depends."

Location. Preparation. Starting positions. If you're including the "original teams" than at what point in time? I'm sure their levels and equipment changed over time...

That said, at current levels and generally speaking, the six of them would probably "defeat" just Xykon and Redcloak.

[Warren Dew]

In terms of mechanics they are fairly balanced. Tarquin's team is approximately level 20 to 25 each - Redcloak would be overmatched in that fight in terms of level but is a primary caster so that's not a big deal.
What epic abilities do you think members of Team Tarquin has used?

[Mike Havran]

I'm pretty sure the opposite is true. Xykon and Redcloak mention that they mobilized ninety percent of the hobgoblins living in the fortress-city. That said, there has clearly been immigration of goblinoids unaffiliated with the original conquerors since the conquest, including Goblin Dan, which more than makes up the difference.

That being said, I'd still bet on the nation willing to mobilize ninety percent of its population of tens of thousands for a campaign over the nation that measures significant mobilizations in the hundreds of troops.Do you mean the qoute about preparations being 98,5% complete (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0300.html)? That doesn't necessary mean they had all the people in the tribes going.

I suppose they only gathered all (maybe just "most") of the male soldiers, since I haven't seen any female hobgoblin during the battle itself.

[zimmerwald1915]

Do you mean the qoute about preparations being 98,5% complete (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0300.html)? That doesn't necessary mean they had all the people in the tribes going.

I suppose they only gathered all (maybe just "most") of the male soldiers, since I haven't seen any female hobgoblin during the battle itself.
No, I'm referring to the scene in War and XPs after the hobgoblins captured Blueriver, where the hobgoblin general mentions that they've always failed to take the fort in the past and where Redcloak or Xykon responds that having mobilized ninety percent of the population probably made the difference this time. This scene is not in the online comic. I'd quote it verbatim, but I'm away from my books at the moment.

[137beth]

Redcloak says (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0702.html) that many of the goblin's families still live in the mountains.

[dancrilis]

Nobody can answer this question really, because nobody knows what the MitD actually is.

The Giant (presumable) knows.



If Mitd is as powerful as has been hinted at though he would just eat both parties and sleep it off at full power.

It has been effectively shown (in one of the books) that he is less powerful than Xykon.

Although another point is that no one (presumable baring the Giant) knows how powerful Xykon is - people assume that he is in the 20s. However for all we know he could be in the 80s* with an as yet undisclosed master plan**.

*Unlikely
**Entirely possible

[zimmerwald1915]

It has been effectively shown (in one of the books) that he is less powerful than Xykon.
Has he? Start of Darkness showed that he was vulnerable to Xykon's mind control, but that doesn't really say anything about offensive power. In No Cure of the Paladin Blues he was unable to overcome the ancient silver dragon (though I don't remember whether he actually fought or not), but neither was Xykon, so that's a wash.

[Ramien]

No, I'm referring to the scene in War and XPs after the hobgoblins captured Blueriver, where the hobgoblin general mentions that they've always failed to take the fort in the past and where Redcloak or Xykon responds that having mobilized ninety percent of the population probably made the difference this time. This scene is not in the online comic. I'd quote it verbatim, but I'm away from my books at the moment.
Just to assist:
General:Trust me, the paladins and regular army of the Azurites have kept us completely penned in these mountains for almost 30 years. They aren't expecting us to just suddenly break out and invade like this. They put most of their military energy into Blueriver.
Redcloak: I guess it never occured to any of your previous Supreme Leaders to mobilize 90% of your population.
General: To say the least.
Xykon: Probably that pesky "self-preservation" thing. Don't worry, we'll drum that out of you soon enough.
(War and XPs page 320a)

Historically, this sort of mobilization isn't feasible... but when you're looking to invade and settle and effectively risk everything, the gamble can be made.

[bguy]

In terms of mechanics they are fairly balanced. Tarquin's team is approximately level 20 to 25 each - Redcloak would be overmatched in that fight in terms of level but is a primary caster so that's not a big deal. Xykon is something like level 28 or more so by challenge rating is somewhere between a very hard fight and suicide for Tarquin's team, but he will have trouble with action economy which is so important at this level.

If Mitd is as powerful as has been hinted at though he would just eat both parties and sleep it off at full power.

MitD seems to be weak against enchantment magic though which would make him vulnerable against Laurin (and possibly Miron as well depending on what enchantment spells he has.) He also doesn't seem to be particularly motivated to help Team Evil out anymore.

As for Xykon, yes he's powerful, but he has a pretty limited number of spells and his two biggest guns (Energy Drain and Meteor Swarm) can both be rendered pretty much harmless by low level abjurations. He's also vulnerable to Disintegrates (which we know at least Laurin has) and does he have any good protections against melee attacks?

And if anyone on Team Tarquin has it a single Anti-magic field spell would pretty much wreck Team Evil.

[zimmerwald1915]

Just to assist:
Many thanks. I'd award you an internet, but I don't have any to give. Would you accept a server?


Historically, this sort of mobilization isn't feasible... but when you're looking to invade and settle and effectively risk everything, the gamble can be made.
Indeed, and the hobgoblin general recognizes this. To illustrate, mobilizing two to three percent of a population tends to put a strain on a country's economy, and mobilizing four to five percent tends to push it to the breaking point.


As for Xykon, yes he's powerful, but he has a pretty limited number of spells and his two biggest guns (Energy Drain and Meteor Swarm) can both be rendered pretty much harmless by low level abjurations. He's also vulnerable to Disintegrates (which we know at least Laurin has) and does he have any good protections against melee attacks?
I'd be a bit wary of assuming TT currently has much in the way of abjurations. Both Miron and Laurin were damaged by V's lightning bolt and prismatic spray. I'd even go so far as to suggest that TT relied on Malack for their abjurations. One of these abjurations, mass death ward, would indeed render Xykon's energy drain a non-factor, but it's hardly "low-level", and there are further problems with it. As a level 12 cleric, Malack would have had to cast the spell from a scroll, and also as a level 12 cleric, his spell would be easily dispellable by Redcloak, never mind Xykon.

Xykon has faced disintegrate before, and deflected it. Redcloak could counterspell it, albeit once.

Xykon can fly out of melee reach, and while this isn't an absolute defense, as the most recent strip proved, he can't be choked and his DR is effective against the weapons Tarquin's been seen using.

Oh, and Redcloak can cast gate, a spell that made even Xykon flinch when it was used against him.


And if anyone on Team Tarquin has it a single Anti-magic field spell would pretty much wreck Team Evil.
Considering that anti-magic field follows the caster it'd pretty much wreck TT as well. Especially as Xykon not only has a pile of spells, but the strength to crush the life out of any caster foolish enough to walk close enough to him for an AMF to affect him with his bare phylanges.

[NihhusHuotAliro]

Tarquin: We have an army.

Xykon: We have a hulk -points to Silicon elemental-

[dancrilis]

As for Xykon, yes he's powerful, but he has a pretty limited number of spells and his two biggest guns (Energy Drain and Meteor Swarm) can both be rendered pretty much harmless by low level abjurations. He's also vulnerable to Disintegrates (which we know at least Laurin has) and does he have any good protections against melee attacks?
His two biggest guns (assuming they are his tow biggest guns) can also be brought back into play via low level abjurations. And V tried disintegrate without success.
Melee attacks and touch attacks are effectively countered (if not neutralised) by epic mage armour (particularly if it is supported by other means) - a spell he is reported to have (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0670.html).



And if anyone on Team Tarquin has it a single Anti-magic field spell would pretty much wreck Team Evil.
Actually no.
Artifacts and deities are unaffected by mortal magic such as this.

Redcloak keeps his spells when he would normally be denied them - via tha power of an artifact.
Debatable if it would work in this instance.

Antimagic Field (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/antimagicField.htm)


Certain spells, such as wall of force, prismatic sphere, and prismatic wall, remain unaffected by antimagic field (see the individual spell descriptions).

We know that Xykon has access to a custom built force cage.



The space within this barrier is impervious to most magical effects, including spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural abilities. Likewise, it prevents the functioning of any magic items or spells within its confines.

...

Elementals, corporeal undead, and outsiders are likewise unaffected unless summoned. These creatures’ spell-like or supernatural abilities, however, may be temporarily nullified by the field.
The space is impervious to most magical effects, however corporeal undead are unaffected - and while the field shuts down spells normally (along with spell-like abilities, and supernatural abilities) for corporeal is only shuts down spell-like abilities and supernatural abilities.
Or so it could be argued.

As such it is possible that both spellcasters of team evil can cast perfectly happily in an anti-magic field (and possible that neither can).

PS: For GM's out there it might be funny to run this interpretation with a party of players who get dependent on anti-magic field.
Funny for you that is.

[Kish]

Has he? Start of Darkness showed that he was vulnerable to Xykon's mind control, but that doesn't really say anything about offensive power. In No Cure of the Paladin Blues he was unable to overcome the ancient silver dragon (though I don't remember whether he actually fought or not), but neither was Xykon, so that's a wash.
He did not fight it; Xykon and Redcloak yelled at him for not being there when they needed him, in a way that could be read as them just being randomly unreasonable or could be read as them thinking he could have effortlessly stomped the ancient silver dragon.

[bguy]

I'd be a bit wary of assuming TT currently has much in the way of abjurations. Both Miron and Laurin were damaged by V's lightning bolt and prismatic spray. I'd even go so far as to suggest that TT relied on Malack for their abjurations. One of these abjurations, mass death ward, would indeed render Xykon's energy drain a non-factor, but it's hardly "low-level", and there are further problems with it. As a level 12 cleric, Malack would have had to cast the spell from a scroll, and also as a level 12 cleric, his spell would be easily dispellable by Redcloak, never mind Xykon.

I'm pretty sure Miron had some abjurations in place as its almost impossible to believe he could have survive the thrashing the Order gave him otherwise. (At a minimum I expect he at least had Resist Energy: Electricity and Stoneskin up.)

And remember Potions of Negative Energy Protection are available in the Stickverse, so every member of TT could be packing some. And yes they can be dispelled, but a round that Xykon or Redcloak is dispelling is a round they aren't otherwise attacking TT. Which given that TT has 3 times the members of TE is a pretty huge advantage for them, especially if Xykon also wastes his opening round on a fizzled Energy Drain.


Xykon has faced disintegrate before, and deflected it. Redcloak could counterspell it, albeit once.

Yeah, but that was against V who is a notoriously poor shot. (How many times did she miss against Qarr?) And Redcloak counter-spelling is still a net win for TT since it removes one of Redcloak's best damaging spells that would have a decent chance of one shoting Laurin, Miron, or Malack, while Laurin can just fire off another Disintegrate the next round.


Xykon can fly out of melee reach, and while this isn't an absolute defense, as the most recent strip proved, he can't be choked and his DR is effective against the weapons Tarquin's been seen using.

True, but cast a Fly spell on Tarquin and SPG, and they are right up there after him.


Oh, and Redcloak can cast gate, a spell that made even Xykon flinch when it was used against him.

I actually think Redcloak is probably more dangerous to TT than Xykon as he has a wider scope of abilities. However, he is rather weak at melee (as shown by a barely armed O'Chul nearly killing him) and is potentially very vulnerable to Jacinda's sneak attacks.


Considering that anti-magic field follows the caster it'd pretty much wreck TT as well. Especially as Xykon not only has a pile of spells, but the strength to crush the life out of any caster foolish enough to walk close enough to him for an AMF to affect him with his bare phylanges.

If its Xykon vs Tarquin and SPD in magicless melee though then I think you have to give the advantage to the later duo. A magic-less Tarquin may not be able to penetrate Xykon's DR (though given that his primary weapon was a two handed battle axe I suspect he does have Power Attack), but even if Tarquin can't damage Xykon his various combat maneuvers should be enough to at least stalemate Xykon while the rest of his team takes out Redcloak. They could then drop the AMF and have the entire Team taken on Xykon. (Though Dancrilis' point about Redcloak likely still being able to cast in an AMF is valid, so I will concede this tactic may not be as useful as I first thought.)

[Domino Quartz]

Yeah, but that was against V who is a notoriously poor shot. (How many times did she miss against Qarr?)

I thought that was because V was trance-deprived at the time.

[Newoblivion]

I am quite sure that team evil will win.

1. They are the main villains of the story.

2. A single elemental that was summoned by Redcloak was very challenging for the order. So you can only imagine what powerful monsters Xykon can summon.

3. Both Xykon and Redcloak are very high level spellcaster, and Xykon is also a lich while Redcloak is the chosen of the goblin god.

4. They have MiTD, and it might (maybe) be weak against enchantment spells, though I would guess that they will first need to identify MiTD in order to realize this fact (Also Xykon and Redcloak know this fact and can protect MiTD with spells). We don't know much about it, but we do know that even his weakest strike can launch an enemy far away, so I would only guess that his strong strike will break every bone in Tarquins body and might even produce an earthquake as a "side effect".

[Zerozzz0290]

Are we forgetting that Redcloak has this: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0826.html (spell). It took a High Level Elf Ranger in one shot, I don't think Laurin or Myron could stand it.

Let's remember that both Myron and Malack have to prepare spells where as Xykon doesn't (don't know about Laurin, not to much into psions). And I would believe that both Xykon and Redcloack are at epic level (Xykon needs to be at least 21 to cast epic spells) and We know he can throw as many spells so as to kick an epic Wizard's butt

[Xelbiuj]

I'm convinced that people that say Tarquin beat The Order haven't read the last 75 comics. No matter how this ends, people are obviously going to keep saying that, and that makes me a sad panda.

Just wanted to get that off my chest.

Anyways, Team Evil wins.

[orrion]

Yeah, but that was against V who is a notoriously poor shot. (How many times did she miss against Qarr?) And Redcloak counter-spelling is still a net win for TT since it removes one of Redcloak's best damaging spells that would have a decent chance of one shoting Laurin, Miron, or Malack, while Laurin can just fire off another Disintegrate the next round.

V being a poor shot would be a decent argument if he had, y'know, missed. V did not miss Xykon with Disintegrate - the Disintegrate landed and was deflected, just like against the Death Knight during the Azure City battle.

[bguy]

V being a poor shot would be a decent argument if he had, y'know, missed. V did not miss Xykon with Disintegrate - the Disintegrate landed and was deflected, just like against the Death Knight during the Azure City battle.

Deflection is a form of missing. It just means V's shot was not good enough to get pass whatever deflection bonus Xykon has to his AC. But do that same battle again only with V this time doing a Quickened True Strike before firing off her Disintegrate, and she most likely succeeds in overcoming Xykon's deflection bonus. (The very fact that Xykon is having to rely on a deflection bonus rather than counter-spelling, spell resistance, spell turning, or spell immunity shows he is vulnerable here.)

Also, V did flat out miss earlier in the fight against Xykon when she tried to hit him with a Quickened Dimensional Anchor, and we also just saw her flat out miss against Miron, so I feel pretty confident that V is a terrible shot.

[Kornaki]

What epic abilities do you think members of Team Tarquin has used?

Infinite deflect arrows for Tarquin and Malack is a level 12 cleric with a level adjustment of vampire + lizard/snake thingy + some racial hit dice.

[orrion]

Deflection is a form of missing. It just means V's shot was not good enough to get pass whatever deflection bonus Xykon has to his AC. But do that same battle again only with V this time doing a Quickened True Strike before firing off her Disintegrate, and she most likely succeeds in overcoming Xykon's deflection bonus. (The very fact that Xykon is having to rely on a deflection bonus rather than counter-spelling, spell resistance, spell turning, or spell immunity shows he is vulnerable here.)

Also, V did flat out miss earlier in the fight against Xykon when she tried to hit him with a Quickened Dimensional Anchor, and we also just saw her flat out miss against Miron, so I feel pretty confident that V is a terrible shot.

We've seen plenty of other times where V outright missed with Disintegrate. You've pointed some of them out. The fight with Xykon wasn't one of them.

Xykon was clearly showboating at that point, so him deflecting it doesn't show vulnerability. It shows INvulnerability to any pure offense that V could muster at that point.

[bguy]

Xykon was clearly showboating at that point, so him deflecting it doesn't show vulnerability. It shows INvulnerability to any pure offense that V could muster at that point.

Xykon not taking a threat seriously doesn't necessarily mean he wasn't in genuine danger. Even with Soon beating the stuffing out of him he didn't start taking Soon seriously until Soon revealed he knew exactly where Xykon's phylactery was. And Xykon was similarly dismissive of Lirian and Roy right up until both of them defeated him.

[orrion]

Xykon not taking a threat seriously doesn't necessarily mean he wasn't in genuine danger. Even with Soon beating the stuffing out of him he didn't start taking Soon seriously until Soon revealed he knew exactly where Xykon's phylactery was. And Xykon was similarly dismissive of Lirian and Roy right up until both of them defeated him.

Except.. we know he wasn't in genuine danger after he Energy Drained the splices to hell. By that point the highest level spells V had left were his own spells before the splices (as evidenced by V resorting to Disintegrate in the first place). And oh, by the way, Xykon WAS taking the fight seriously at that point. Remember the stuff about "challenge to my rep" and "no reason to go easy on you"?

Can't comment exactly on Lirian, because I don't have SoD. But.. of course he would be dismissive until she pulled out the ace in the hole, which is the point.

Roy is a parallel to the Soon case, except his phylactery was never in danger there. Like you said, he only panicked when Soon revealed he knew about it.

I don't think you're saying much here. He didn't act like he was in genuine danger until he was in genuine danger? Uh, yeah, exactly.

[bguy]

Except.. we know he wasn't in genuine danger after he Energy Drained the splices to hell. By that point the highest level spells V had left were his own spells before the splices (as evidenced by V resorting to Disintegrate in the first place).

I don't think that's accurate. V broke out at least one 9th level spell after the Maximized Energy Drain, so it clearly didn't take out all of his splice provided higher level spells. I think V went with Disintegrate simply because it was the best lich busting spell available. It targets Xykon's weakest save, and can do enough damage on a single hit to destroy him, and Xykon had already demonstrated he was immune to fire and electricity damage, so Disintegrate was the logical choice even if V still had higher level spells.


I don't think you're saying much here. He didn't act like he was in genuine danger until he was in genuine danger? Uh, yeah, exactly.

The point is that Xykon is a terrible judge of when he is in genuine danger. He didn't realize he was in trouble against Lirian, Roy, the Ancient Silver Dragon, or Soon until it was too late for him to do anything about it.

[orrion]

I don't think that's accurate. V broke out at least one 9th level spell after the Maximized Energy Drain, so it clearly didn't take out all of his splice provided higher level spells. I think V went with Disintegrate simply because it was the best lich busting spell available. It targets Xykon's weakest save, and can do enough damage on a single hit to destroy him, and Xykon had already demonstrated he was immune to fire and electricity damage, so Disintegrate was the logical choice even if V still had higher level spells.

He broke out Crushing Hand, yeah.

You think Disintegrate was a better choice than, say, the 6d6 and added 25d6 he could have done with another Sunburst at that point?

I mean, you've already established he's a terrible shot with Disintegrate. A radius attack would have been a much better choice.



The point is that Xykon is a terrible judge of when he is in genuine danger. He didn't realize he was in trouble against Lirian, Roy, the Ancient Silver Dragon, or Soon until it was too late for him to do anything about it.

And how exactly was he supposed to realize he was in trouble in those fights beforehand?

[Da'Shain]

Xykon is capable of killing them all by himself, assuming he takes the fight seriously, although due to action economy it could go either way. Epic Mage Armor, DR and a fly speed, combined with Ghostform, Resilient Sphere and Forcecage, render the melee fighters almost a non-issue (especially Jacinda). Malack's dead, and if he wasn't, is too low-level a cleric to affect Xykon with much. Miron's displayed nothing that is likely to give Xykon pause, although we haven't seen much from him. Tarquin may have some more crazy magic items to pull out, although at this point I really don't know what he could pull out that would do much. From what we've seen so far, Laurin's the likeliest to pose a threat, but negative levels actually hurt Psions more than normal spellcasters (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicPowersOverview.htm#negativeLevels). It really depends on whether she can hit with her Psi-Disintegrate before she gets Energy Drained or Finger of Death'd, and even if she does, she's highly unlikely to kill Xykon in one hit (the pp she spends * 2 in d6's vs. Xykon's almost certainly higher number of d12's).

Of course, this depends on Xykon taking the fight seriously, something which he almost never does (seriously, Ghostform by itself would solve most of his problems in any fight he's been in). So if we go by in-character actions ... TT probably does kill him at first. Then he regenerates. And knows that if he sees them again it's time for A-game.