As a 5th level wizard, how do I make the rogues not suck.

[RPGaddict28]

My party has two rogues, one is a more traditional rogue, that uses poisons and sneak attacks, and the other is more of a bard. However, neither of them are that effective in normal combat. Right now, my main idea is to get a wand of blindness and try to blind people, so they get sneak attacks, but I don't like the fact that I then can't use a more devestating attack.

[Asrrin]

My party has two rogues, one is a more traditional rogue, that uses poisons and sneak attacks, and the other is more of a bard. However, neither of them are that effective in normal combat. Right now, my main idea is to get a wand of blindness and try to blind people, so they get sneak attacks, but I don't like the fact that I then can't use a more devestating attack.

Invisibility so they can sneak around and do SA damage. Benign Transposition so you can teleport them around the battlefield so they don't have to waste a move action and they can do a full attack routine. Summon monster next to the enemy they are attacking so they get flanking bonuses and can SA.

[Angelalex242]

A wand of glitterdust is a perfectly normal thing to spend money on. And if you don't want to, make the rogues do it with their use magic device skill.

[Blueiji]

Casting something as simple as Grease would help them get off sneak attacks.

Haste is an amazing buff that as a 5th level wizard you just got access to.

What exactly do you mean buy "devastating attack"? Blasting spells?

[Yuki Akuma]

Seconding Grease. Grease is the Rogue's best friend.

Because it forces creatures to balance. And if you balance without 5 ranks in the skill, you're flat-footed.

[Eldariel]

Why Wand? Just cast the normal control spells, Glitterdust, Grease, Haste, etc. and your Rogues should have plenty of sneak attack capability and efficiency.

[Flickerdart]

Hold Person/Bands of Steel are great - paralysis either lets the rogues SA/CdG the helpless victim, or focus on other opponents while that one is out of the game.

[RPGaddict28]

.

What exactly do you mean buy "devastating attack"? Blasting spells?

Yeah, because at best, they're still doing 4d6+1 or 1d4+3d6+4, which no matter what, isn't as good as, say fireball, which does 5d6, as is probably less likely to miss.

[Angelalex242]

Fireball only goes off but once.

Haste+Glitterdust goes off lots and lots of times, and ends the encounter right there.

[Eldariel]

Yeah, because at best, they're still doing 4d6+1 or 1d4+3d6+4, which no matter what, isn't as good as, say fireball, which does 5d6, as is probably less likely to miss.

You're forgetting tho that if you use spells like Grease or Glitterdust, that enemy will be doing very little. That is to say, an enemy who's prone/can't move or a blind enemy will likely do far less damage (zero) than someone who took 5d6 damage. So you're not only helping the Rogues do damage, you're also protecting the party.

Haste also outdamages Fireball by quite a bit since it lasts for round/level instead of 1 round and if both of them get an extra attack with sneak attack, it's only 1 round that you've dealt more damage with Haste than Fireball. All additional rounds are extra.


And imagine you Haste them and THEN Glitterdust/Grease the enemies; doubled sneak attacks from both of them each turn will vastly outdamage any spell you have.

[JaronK]

I'll also vote for Grease and Glitterdust, especially the latter. They mostly take enemies out of the fight and allow the Rogues to clean up.

When you get higher level, Polymorph them into Hydras.

JaronK

[Big Fau]

Yeah, because at best, they're still doing 4d6+1 or 1d4+3d6+4, which no matter what, isn't as good as, say fireball, which does 5d6, as is probably less likely to miss.

Fireball also allows a Reflex save for half (or none, with evasion), and Rogues can do more than 4d6+1 at 5th level.

Direct Damage is really a bad idea for a Wizard. You have plenty of options, so let the damage dealers do their job while you play god with reality.

[Chronos]

Please note: Grease only requires a balance check if you try to move with it. If you just stay put, no check is required, and so you're not flatfooted.

[bekeleven]

Yeah, because at best, they're still doing 4d6+1 or 1d4+3d6+4, which no matter what, isn't as good as, say fireball, which does 5d6, as is probably less likely to miss.

The average damage of 5D6 is 17.5. The average damage of 1D4+3D6+4 is 17. 4D6+1 is 15. Assuming the rogue is using a single weapon (??), they can "only" hit once per round, and can crit. What exactly is the problem?

[Eldariel]

You have two Rogues, btw. I'm sure they can use the flanking-clause on sneak attack to a decent effect if they're melee anyways? Do you have any other warriors in the party?

[RPGaddict28]

You have two Rogues, btw. I'm sure they can use the flanking-clause on sneak attack to a decent effect if they're melee anyways? Do you have any other warriors in the party?

A fighter, and a cleric, and when our real DM is back a barbarian.

[Eldariel]

A fighter, and a cleric, and when our real DM is back a barbarian.

Yeah, Haste is God then. Extra attack for 4-5 people, extra move speed and some stat bonuses for the whole encounter? You're going to do ridiculous amounts of damage with it.

Same with other stuff like Glitterdust, Grease, Web, Stinking Cloud, AOE debuffs in general; makes it supereasy for your horde of melee to wreck their faces.

[Safety Sword]

Please note: Grease only requires a balance check if you try to move with it. If you just stay put, no check is required, and so you're not flatfooted.

Actually, just being attacked provokes a balance check and if you don't have 5 ranks in balance you are flat-footed. It's in the balance skill description.

It's doesn't matter if you move or not.

[Chronos]

Actually, just being attacked provokes a balance check
I can find this neither in the Balance skill nor in the Grease spell.

[Fax Celestis]

Grease, blinding spittle, distract assailant, phantom battle, summon monster, and armor lock are all terrific, low-level options for you to back up your party rogues.

[Tim Proctor]

By getting them wands so they can duplicate anything that you do.