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Blinkbear
2007-01-09, 02:34 PM
Hey,

I thought of playing a character with a rapier that is hidden in a cane. Are there dnd rules for that somewhere? Like: How easy is it to look through that concealment? And of course other stuff.

Greets, Blinkbear

pestilenceawaits
2007-01-09, 02:35 PM
it seems like they had rules for them in the oriental adventures book or something similar.

Were-Sandwich
2007-01-09, 02:39 PM
I'll raise you one better: A sword-pimpin' stick

Jimp
2007-01-09, 03:05 PM
The Shikomi-Zue in Oriental Adventures works sort of like this. Though when you open the blade on it the book does note that it is more like a spear head than a sword head. In my experience playing with the weapon, the DM usually has no problem in treating it like a short sword when the blade is out (for Weapon Finesse).
It's my favourite weapon for stealthy characters, since it looks like a walking stick and even without the blade can act as a sort of club.

Blinkbear
2007-01-09, 03:09 PM
it seems like they had rules for them in the oriental adventures book or something similar.

You mean that Shikomi-Zue? It is listed and the picture fits the concept, though the description doesn't o.O Whatever... It does not really answer my questions :smallfrown: But still: Thank you very much


I'll raise you one better: A sword-pimpin' stick

Most useless comment I ever got on a rules question here on the boards. :smalleek:


The Shikomi-Zue in Oriental Adventures works sort of like this. Though when you open the blade on it the book does note that it is more like a spear head than a sword head. In my experience playing with the weapon, the DM usually has no problem in treating it like a short sword when the blade is out (for Weapon Finesse).
It's my favourite weapon for stealthy characters, since it looks like a walking stick and even without the blade can act as a sort of club.

Looks like we simuposted. Do you have any experience on how people reacted to finding out about this so hidden weapon? Concealed weapons are forbidden nowadays in most countries afaik.

Allandaros
2007-01-09, 03:09 PM
I'd factor in at least a -1 on the damage dice (1d6-1, if 1d6 is the base for a rapier), to allow for the fact that it's a concealed weapon, and you're not able to strike with it as effectively as a regular one.

Were-Sandwich
2007-01-09, 03:11 PM
Kinda like the ribbon-weave from Races of Eberron. Except that extends a sort of ribbon-whip thing made of metal. I have no idea how you actually hurt someone with it.

Telonius
2007-01-09, 03:24 PM
I have one now in an Eberron campaign. Search or Spot checks (for NPCs to figure out it's actually a sword) haven't come up yet, but my character has a Hat of Disguise anyway so it probably wouldn't matter. For combat purposes we're just treating it as a masterwork rapier, no special bonuses or penalties. It's sheathed as long as it's in its cane form.

Bears With Lasers
2007-01-09, 03:32 PM
Kinda like the ribbon-weave from Races of Eberron. Except that extends a sort of ribbon-whip thing made of metal. I have no idea how you actually hurt someone with it.

Very cinematically.

I mean, picture a Dervish with that thing.

Fax Celestis
2007-01-09, 03:34 PM
Gah The Anime Its On Me Getitoffgetitoffaaaagh.

Were-Sandwich
2007-01-09, 03:34 PM
oooh. awesome.

Jimp
2007-01-09, 03:39 PM
Looks like we simuposted. Do you have any experience on how people reacted to finding out about this so hidden weapon? Concealed weapons are forbidden nowadays in most countries afaik.

Unfortunately not :smallfrown: When people found out it was actually a weapon they generally didn't remain alive long enough to do anything about it.
Ah, how I loved that character.

Blinkbear
2007-01-09, 03:41 PM
Unfortunately not :smallfrown: When people found out it was actually a weapon they generally didn't remain alive long enough to do anything about it.
Ah, how I loved that character.

Har har, exactly what I thought you would say. :smallbiggrin:

Bears With Lasers
2007-01-09, 03:45 PM
Gah The Anime Its On Me Getitoffgetitoffaaaagh.


Just for you, my next character is going tobe a Dervish with Up the Walls or maybe the ToB Spider Climb-granting stance, wielding a ribbonweave in one hand and a pyrokineticist Fire Lash in the other. With maybe for some Elocater so he floats, too.

codexgigas
2007-01-09, 03:58 PM
d20 Modern stats a swordcane as follows: 1d6, crit x2 18-20, Piercing, 3 lbs, medium size, with a purchase DC of 9 (no idea what that translates to in gold, though). There's a DC 18 Spot check to notice that it's something other than a regular cane. It's an archaic weapon for d20 modern, along with a longsword, but I'd probably rule that a swordcane would be an exotic weapon in D&D.

Allandaros
2007-01-09, 04:03 PM
It's an archaic weapon for d20 modern, along with a longsword, but I'd probably rule that a swordcane would be an exotic weapon in D&D.

Would it really be exotic, though? I mean, it's used just as a regular rapier. As I understand it (I don't play 3e, so I'm not sure about this), exotic weapons like double swords are those which are so ridiculously obscure that it's really odd to find someone who knows how to use them. On the other hand, if you know how to use the base weapon within the swordcane, you know how to use the swordcane.

Blinkbear
2007-01-09, 04:04 PM
Would it really be exotic, though? I mean, it's used just as a regular rapier. As I understand it (I don't play 3e, so I'm not sure about this), exotic weapons like double swords are those which are so ridiculously obscure that it's really odd to find someone who knows how to use them. On the other hand, if you know how to use the base weapon within the swordcane, you know how to use the swordcane.

Agreed. The other stats look like a simple rapier. And the DC 18 check is a first step :)

MrNexx
2007-01-09, 04:12 PM
It depends on what stats you're going to give it. If you give it simple rapier stats, plus the concealment options, I'd call it an expensive rapier (probably about 100gp in most cases; legitimate shops wouldn't sell such a thing, except for the super-rich), and thus make it a martial weapon, same as a rapier. If you want to give it some special stats beyond concealment (say, a parrying function to the sheath, adding to AC), then I'd make it exotic.

Blinkbear
2007-01-09, 04:20 PM
It depends on what stats you're going to give it. If you give it simple rapier stats, plus the concealment options, I'd call it an expensive rapier (probably about 100gp in most cases; legitimate shops wouldn't sell such a thing, except for the super-rich), and thus make it a martial weapon, same as a rapier. If you want to give it some special stats beyond concealment (say, a parrying function to the sheath, adding to AC), then I'd make it exotic.

I thought of just using a concealable rapier.

Though I figured in the meantime that it is rather unrealistic to fence with such a weapon as I figured that it has no protection for the hand. Well, of course this is dnd and we are doing much more not so realistic stuff.

Bears With Lasers
2007-01-09, 04:21 PM
Yeah, swordcanes aren't so much with the being real weapons. They're great... if you're fiighting someone with a knife, or unarmed.

Not so much against swords and dragons and stuff.

Allandaros
2007-01-09, 04:44 PM
Yeah, swordcanes aren't so much with the being real weapons. They're great... if you're fiighting someone with a knife, or unarmed.

Not so much against swords and dragons and stuff.

Against a dragon? Heck no.

Against the three thugs in the alley that that the Baron sent to kill you for showing him up at the party? Absolutely.

It's all in the playstyle of the campaign.

Hallavast
2007-01-09, 04:50 PM
Hmm... in order to impliment the lack of a hand guard, I'd reduce the crit threat range to 19-20 to show the fact that you don't get as many openings for good strikes since you have to worry about protecting your hand.

Stormcrow
2007-01-09, 07:37 PM
With the right enchantments it would get very deadly very fast...

Blinkbear
2007-01-09, 07:39 PM
With the right enchantments it would get very deadly very fast...

For example?

(needing more characters)

AtomicKitKat
2007-01-10, 02:58 AM
Give a chance to feint, like with the warfan.

McDeath
2007-01-10, 03:08 AM
This thread would have been way cooler if it had been abut what I thought it was. Man, chainswords would have been awesome...

Anyway, I'd just call it a shortsword that takes a DC 12 Search check to discover.

LordLocke
2007-01-10, 03:17 AM
Well, you COULD try to take the sword-cane to the dragon's lair...

<Mr. Gentleman> My dear sir, would you mind looking closer for just one second.

<Red Dragon> You talking to me, lunch?

<Mr. Gentleman> Yes, yes. I'd like you to take a closer look at this cane of mine here.

<Red Dragon> What about it? Sure, it looks nice, but...

*SHINK!* *POKE!*

<Red Dragon> OW! You could put someone's eye out with that thing.

<Mr. Gentleman> *sweatdrop* That was kind of the point...

*CHOMP!* *SWALLOW!*

<Red Dragon> Mmm, He and his weapon are both rich with flavor.

... I just really wouldn't reccomend it.

Thomas
2007-01-10, 03:25 AM
Would it really be exotic, though? I mean, it's used just as a regular rapier.

Smallsword, not rapier. Good luck fitting a 3 to 4 foot rapier inside a cane. For game purposes, the stats would be the same, though.

Anyway, it doesn't need any special rules. At the most, you could get +2 to feint when using Quick Draw with it or something, but that's not necessary. In some other game, it might work differently, but this is the level of accuracy D&D models weapons with.

Wehrkind
2007-01-10, 03:26 AM
All of the cane swords I have seen, including the one I put into my arm, were a little closer to a long dagger or a short sword than a rapier. I think stats for a dagger or a stiletto would be a little more appropriate, since they are not as broad as a short sword and fairly light (and thus poor for slashing), but not as long and functional as a rapier.

As for concealing, I would call it an automatic success unless you are in an area that uses weapons concealed as other things often. When nobles carry swords openly, there is often little reason to bother with a weapon that doesn't look like one. (We modern folks are rather unused to the idea of carrying weapons, but it was very common not terribly long ago.)

AtomicKitKat
2007-01-10, 04:48 AM
I don't think it would be too long for a 3 foot cane on a 5'8(my own height, obviously) person.

Thomas
2007-01-10, 05:13 AM
I don't think it would be too long for a 3 foot cane on a 5'8(my own height, obviously) person.


The cane'd have to come up to around 4 feet for a 3-4 foot rapier, maybe a few inches on top of that, since you need some space that isn't sword at the bottom. A 3 foot cane is precisely good, and could hold a smallsword.

AtomicKitKat
2007-01-10, 09:13 AM
Let's say the "grip" of the cane(essentially a half circle) would be a decent 2 inches or so(The diameter/height of the half circle). More than enough for you to wrap your fingers around, with another inch or so before you hit "blade", which would be another 3 feet say, and then another inch at the bottom, for an overall cane length of 3 1/3 feet, or just about 1 meter. *Grabs a free Ikea paper tape measure to test* It comes up to just around my navel line, which seems about right, since one would normally carry a cane or umbrella with the hand slightly bent at the wrist.

SpiderBrigade
2007-01-10, 09:45 AM
Sorry, not seeing how paying a visit to the dragon with your swordcane is any more ridiculous than bringing a normal rapier, or a magical staff, or your fists. If you're strong enough (levelwise) to take on dragons, you'll have some way of hurting him. If you're not, you'll die even if you're monkey-gripping a huge fullblade. (in fact...that'll probably make you more likely to die...but that's not the point...)

Fhaolan
2007-01-10, 01:04 PM
Luckily I have a swordcane at hand, and have dealt with several others. Here are some stats:

Cane length in total: 2'11"
Length of grip: 6"
Diameter of grip: 1 1/8" tapering down to 1" where it joins the hollow cane
Blade length: 1'9"
Blade width: 5/8"

These stats seem typical when compared to other swordcanes. I'm not entirely sure why the blade is that much shorter than the body, but there is probably a reason.

For historical examples, I've only seen two museum pieces in RL for swordcanes. One was a smallsword cane with similar stats to the one I own. The other was a walking staff with a concealed sword blade. It had a somewhat broader blade than the smallsword, but it was still considerably shorter than a proper rapier.

I've always liked the brandistock instead. It was a quarterstaff that had a retractable spetum head, a spear with two forward projecting side spikes. Much more useful than a smallsword. :smallwink:

Amotis
2007-01-10, 01:05 PM
There's one in Oriental Adventures. That's all I remember though, some one have it?

Thomas
2007-01-10, 01:17 PM
1'9" barely qualifies as a smallsword, then. Seems like a realistic size. Game-mechanically, it's a rapier or a dagger (one can be a rapier, another a dagger).

Matthew
2007-01-10, 01:21 PM
Short Sword, I would have thought.

TheThan
2007-01-10, 01:22 PM
Here's another example:

http://www.coldsteel.com/88scm.html

Thomas
2007-01-10, 01:27 PM
Short Sword, I would have thought.

Oh, right, they're piercing too. Short sword's fine, too. It hardly makes any real difference; D&D weapons are just game mechanics representations for an idea of a weapon. They don't even try to model any weapon of a specific size used in a specific way.

Were-Sandwich
2007-01-10, 01:34 PM
cool. If I had the cash and the look to pull off walking with a cane, I'd buy one of those.

I still think the ribbon is pathetic. Same damage as a dagger, I could see. But a nearly wieghtless metal ribbon with the same stat-line as a longsword. Blooby stupid. Its just too damn light too actually hurt anyone.

Thomas
2007-01-10, 01:37 PM
I still think the ribbon is pathetic. Same damage as a dagger, I could see. But a nearly wieghtless metal ribbon with the same stat-line as a longsword. Blooby stupid. Its just too damn light too actually hurt anyone.

This is a fantasy game. Naisi Mac Usna blinded one of Conchubar's warriors by throwing a chess piece into his eye, because he was a warrior of the Red Branch and they're just that tough. That's the sort of fighting ability D&D models.

Were-Sandwich
2007-01-10, 01:53 PM
point taken. Which film/show is that btw, I don't watch any anime, but that sounds pretty awesome

SpiderBrigade
2007-01-10, 01:54 PM
Celtic heroic legend, actually.

Were-Sandwich
2007-01-10, 02:06 PM
ah. gotcha

EDIT: To those who won sword-canes, ow sturdy are the canes themselves sans-sword? I have an image of a guy who TWF's with the pair: The sword in one hand, cane in the other.

Fhaolan
2007-01-10, 02:41 PM
ah. gotcha

EDIT: To those who won sword-canes, ow sturdy are the canes themselves sans-sword? I have an image of a guy who TWF's with the pair: The sword in one hand, cane in the other.

The one I actually own has a metal cane body. While you could block blows with it, it's not going to be much use as a cane afterwards. The metal is relatively thin, because it's a relatively cheap knock-off. I have it because it has a pewter wolf's head as the knob on it. :) Most of the people I know who have handled it have said 'Forget the blade, leave it as a cane and bash people with the wolf's head.' It's a hefty cane all told and makes a better club than a sword. :)

The historical one I saw was wood and actually felt sturdier than my metal bodied one. The very modern Cold Steel version linked to above is very tough. I know someone who picked one up.

Mr Croup
2007-01-10, 02:57 PM
It's a bit of a mixed bag when it comes to the sturdiness of the cane sheath, at least in my experience with them. Most of the modern versions I've handled have had very flimsy bodies made of thin metal, form shaped particle board covered with a veneer, or an inexpensive solid wood. I have seen a very nice modern model similar to, if not the same as, the one linked above which Fhaolan mentions.

Of the three antique ones I've handled, one was housed in a very lightweight wooden body that I wouldn't have trusted to stand up to a single blow. The other two were remarkably sturdy, the housings made of some sort of hardwood. Both were far heavier than any of the reproductions or modern models I've seen, but I still don't know how much I'd like to try and block a blow with them, just because they are a lot less sturdy than a solid hard wood cane. Granted, I'd think they would suffice against a blow from a weapon of similar type of a sword cane itself, or a light rapier (read - not an Italian style blade), and would probably work well enough in deflecting a blow aside.

Machete
2007-01-10, 11:33 PM
So, perhaps the canesword sheath(or even just Sheathes in general of which this could be one) could be used as an Exotic Shield offering 1 AC. What would the Armor Check Penalty be?

AtomicKitKat
2007-01-11, 01:07 AM
Now that we've got that out of the way. How feasible is a cane-sarigama? Looks like a walking cane with a bird's head or similar hook at the top, with a quick release, it unleashes the head on a chain(Penguin's weapon, from "The Batman", except his was an umbrella). Or a cane that can be switched into nunchuku/sankon(3 part staff) mode(similar to the one from the Daredevil movie).

Machete
2007-01-11, 01:18 AM
What your describing sounds like a flail with a long chain held by the ball.

Eikre
2007-01-11, 02:21 AM
Hmm... in order to impliment the lack of a hand guard, I'd reduce the crit threat range to 19-20 to show the fact that you don't get as many openings for good strikes since you have to worry about protecting your hand.

That's... almost artificial, actually. You can get away with the most basic of cross-guard, and it's well within the renaissance technological paradigm to include one that snaps out and locks when you draw the sword. Regardless, yours is a damn selective way of applying reality.


So, perhaps the canesword sheath(or even just Sheathes in general of which this could be one) could be used as an Exotic Shield offering 1 AC. What would the Armor Check Penalty be?

That's a strange mechanic for a concept that seems like it can use what's already there.

Let's just pull the obscure Muspelrule back outta the Planar Handbook. 1d4, 19-20/X2, Bludgeoning, Light, simple. Mechanically, very similar to a dagger, and it fits as well as you want. If you want to use it for two-weapon defense, then just pick up feat.

Thomas
2007-01-11, 02:48 AM
point taken. Which film/show is that btw, I don't watch any anime, but that sounds pretty awesome

Like SpiderBrigade said, it's an Irish Celtic legend. The sons of Usna (or Usnach), Deirdre (or Diedre, etc.), and Conchubar (or Conor). (Old Irish names each have some 20 spellings. Those monks may have "saved" civilisation, but they didn't know how to spell.) It's under the name "The fate of the sons of Usna" in my Old Celtic Romances by P.W. Joyce. I really recommend Celtic legends, and the Ulster Cycle (or Red Branch Cycle), which includes Deirdre's tale and Cuchulainn's tale, is possibly the best. There's some properly legendary and epic combat there - Cuchulainn holds off an army at a ford for months by fighting duels, and so on.


As for the cane sword... just use TWF and TWD with the sword (shortsword, dagger) and the sheath (club).

Ambrogino
2007-01-11, 05:30 AM
I'm not entirely sure why the blade is that much shorter than the body, but there is probably a reason.

I'd imagine, presuming the extra length of the body is in the section closest to the ground, it's because you wouldn't normally put any force on the pommel of a sword and drive the tip towards the ground. A bit of extra support to take the pressure and prevent you driving the blade through the sheath in a wooden cane.