[3.5] Swarm animal companion?

[Chronos]

I seem to recall reading somewhere of a feat, alternate class feature, or other such ability that lets a druid take a swarm as an animal companion. I can't find it now, though. Am I imagining things, or is this a real thing somewhere?

The creature type of the swarm isn't a big deal to me: Vermin or animal swarms would either one be acceptable.

[Tvtyrant]

Vermin companion can get you some swarm companions. Buff sharing with swarms can be nice.

[eggynack]

Specifically, you want the vermin companion over here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20040705a), rather than the feat from eberron campaign setting, if you're looking for swarms. More accurately, you probably don't want it, because the swarm animal companion is surprisingly bad. They generally fail to do most of the things you'd want out of an animal companion, and don't even get feats. Such is the nature of things.

[Chronos]

Well, the character in question is actually an Arcane Heirophant, so the companion would get the intelligence of a familiar. That should negate at least some of the drawbacks of a vermin swarm.

[eggynack]

Eh, not all that much. It doesn't look like heirophant is overcoming the featlessness of swarms, and that's actually just a surface issue. The main thing is that swarms don't really stand in the way all that much, and their damage is a bit on the low side. Sure, they have crazy resiliency on occasion, and the damage is pretty irresistible, but the former isn't really necessary, and in the latter case, you're pretty unlikely to get the kinda inevitability necessary to make that ability helpful. You also can't animal growth them, which is just a big pile o' suck. If it were me, I'd just stick to my normal companion, and prep a summon swarm in case the stars align. As your neat druid fact of the day: you can totally summon a murder of crows (ToM, 87) in addition to the normal summon swarm options. It's nifty.

[Chronos]

Featlessness isn't an inherent property of vermin nor of swarms. Most vermin lack feats because they're mindless, but a companion familiar has the intelligence of a familiar, and so that wouldn't apply. So they'd get feats the same as any other creature of their HD. And even if you can't animal growth them, you can give them other buffs, that you couldn't give to non-companion swarms.

[eggynack]

Nah, it's just an inherent property of swarm companions. To quote the page, "Swarm companions do not gain feats."

Edit: Also, animal growth is awesome. I don't think there is a direct substitute for that kinda power. Mediocre substitutes, sure, but there's only one animal growth.

[Tvtyrant]

Eh, not all that much. It doesn't look like heirophant is overcoming the featlessness of swarms, and that's actually just a surface issue. The main thing is that swarms don't really stand in the way all that much, and their damage is a bit on the low side. Sure, they have crazy resiliency on occasion, and the damage is pretty irresistible, but the former isn't really necessary, and in the latter case, you're pretty unlikely to get the kinda inevitability necessary to make that ability helpful. You also can't animal growth them, which is just a big pile o' suck. If it were me, I'd just stick to my normal companion, and prep a summon swarm in case the stars align. As your neat druid fact of the day: you can totally summon a murder of crows (ToM, 87) in addition to the normal summon swarm options. It's nifty.

There is one REALLY good reason to use swarms. Dominating poke-Druids. With small swarms animals cannot hurt them, so you can go running around finding battle titans and dire polar bears and fly overhead while letting the swarm nip them unconcious. Auto-success on dominate animal and then you have a better than animal companion as a slave.

[eggynack]

There is one REALLY good reason to use swarms. Dominating poke-Druids. With small swarms animals cannot hurt them, so you can go running around finding battle titans and dire polar bears and fly overhead while letting the swarm nip them unconcious. Auto-success on dominate animal and then you have a better than animal companion as a slave.
That's definitely interesting. Still, I can't help but think that the swarm animal companion isn't a necessary component of the plan. I mean, I mentioned summon swarm, and that seems like it'd do the job about as well. There're probably some other ways to knock out an animal as a druid with low risk and low resource expenditure. Offhand, I'm thinking that moon bolt (SpC, 143) would be able to do the job, especially if you're doing this in a manner separate from adventuring. Also, I think you meant fine or diminutive swarms. That's the size that's invulnerable to weapon damage.

Edit: Also, what are you using for the domination? Dominate animal only works for rounds/level, so you'd have to either lengthen the duration, or use something else.

[Tvtyrant]

That's definitely interesting. Still, I can't help but think that the swarm animal companion isn't a necessary component of the plan. I mean, I mentioned summon swarm, and that seems like it'd do the job about as well. There're probably some other ways to knock out an animal as a druid with low risk and low resource expenditure. Offhand, I'm thinking that moon bolt (SpC, 143) would be able to do the job, especially if you're doing this in a manner separate from adventuring. Also, I think you meant fine or diminutive swarms. That's the size that's invulnerable to weapon damage.

Edit: Also, what are you using for the domination? Dominate animal only works for rounds/level, so you'd have to either lengthen the duration, or use something else.

I never noticed the duration on dominate animal; I just assumed it was days per CL like dominate person/monster. I suppose you could UMD a staff of dominate monster, but it doesn't work nearly as well...

Also, swarm companion does have another use. You can share persisted "damage on contact" spells with it and then have it just move over an enemy. I agree it is inferior to a normal animal companion or even an elemental companion (which should at least keep up with SNA...) but not totally useless.

[eggynack]

I never noticed the duration on dominate animal; I just assumed it was days per CL like dominate person/monster. I suppose you could UMD a staff of dominate monster, but it doesn't work nearly as well...
Yeah, I knew there was some reason why I don't think about dominate animal when considering druid style long duration minionmancy. It is a sad thing. I guess I'll have to content myself with stuff like awaken and cry of ysgard.


Also, swarm companion does have another use. You can share persisted "damage on contact" spells with it and then have it just move over an enemy. I agree it is inferior to a normal animal companion or even an elemental companion (which should at least keep up with SNA...) but not totally useless.
That is also somewhat interesting. I wonder how the damage comparison breaks down, especially if you consider it with equal resource expenditure in mind. I would think it would be less, especially if you pull out the big guns, and go full on fleshraker. That animal companion just gets better and better every time I look at it. I don't know what the mechanism is behind that fact, but it is a true thing.

[Tvtyrant]

Yeah, I knew there was some reason why I don't think about dominate animal when considering druid style long duration minionmancy. It is a sad thing. I guess I'll have to content myself with stuff like awaken and cry of ysgard.


That is also somewhat interesting. I wonder how the damage comparison breaks down, especially if you consider it with equal resource expenditure in mind. I would think it would be less, especially if you pull out the big guns, and go full on fleshraker. That animal companion just gets better and better every time I look at it. I don't know what the mechanism is behind that fact, but it is a true thing.
Yeah it is tragic. The really good animals have a metric ton of HD so you cannot shift into them or use them :C

Most of them are just okay, but Spore Cloak has the enemy make a fort save or take 1d6 con damage each turn you share a square with them. On a swarm companion this is pretty dang awesome, since they will always share a square with the enemy. A lot of the others require grappling, so I am not sure if they work together.

[eggynack]

Yeah it is tragic. The really good animals have a metric ton of HD so you cannot shift into them or use them :C
It's not all that bad. Cry of ysgard and valiant steed are kinda sweet on anyone, and there're some good wild shape forms out there. One thing that seems annoyingly non-existent is good gargantuan animals that you can wild shape into. I really want to make megalodon empowerment (Storm, 118) worth it, but it might just be the fever dream of a mad man. Also, worthwhile humanoid forms, for fangshields druid substitution levels (CV, 40), and maybe some sort of thing that can be done with the magical beast type, because aspect of the earth hunter (SpC, 16) is a thing. I basically have all of these things written down with a big, "I guess this could be good?" next to them.


Most of them are just okay, but Spore Cloak has the enemy make a fort save or take 1d6 con damage each turn you share a square with them. On a swarm companion this is pretty dang awesome, since they will always share a square with the enemy. A lot of the others require grappling, so I am not sure if they work together.

That is pretty cool. It's definitely a line worth consideration, though I'm pretty doubtful that it'd be actually worthwhile from an optimization perspective. I'm always pretty wary of minutes/level buffs, especially when you're running it out of a fifth level slot. Animal growth is an obvious exception to that, because it can end encounters pretty efficiently. It is always fun to find these obscure lines of optimization though, even if they never amount to much.

[Tvtyrant]

It's not all that bad. Cry of ysgard and valiant steed are kinda sweet on anyone, and there're some good wild shape forms out there. One thing that seems annoyingly non-existent is good gargantuan animals that you can wild shape into. I really want to make megalodon empowerment (Storm, 118) worth it, but it might just be the fever dream of a mad man. Also, worthwhile humanoid forms, for fangshields druid substitution levels (CV, 40), and maybe some sort of thing that can be done with the magical beast type, because aspect of the earth hunter (SpC, 16) is a thing. I basically have all of these things written down with a big, "I guess this could be good?" next to them.


That is pretty cool. It's definitely a line worth consideration, though I'm pretty doubtful that it'd be actually worthwhile from an optimization perspective. I'm always pretty wary of minutes/level buffs, especially when you're running it out of a fifth level slot. Animal growth is an obvious exception to that, because it can end encounters pretty efficiently. It is always fun to find these obscure lines of optimization though, even if they never amount to much.
My favorite is persisting Aspect of the Wolf to gain the animal type, then wildshape into whatever you want and cast Animal Growth on yourself. :smallcool:

From an optimization perspective it is pretty cruddy but it is thematically cool.

[eggynack]

My favorite is persisting Aspect of the Wolf to gain the animal type, then wildshape into whatever you want and cast Animal Growth on yourself. :smallcool:

From an optimization perspective it is pretty cruddy but it is thematically cool.
That is definitely a classic. You can also probably awaken yourself through that method. It's actually why I considered aspect of the earth hunter at all in the first place, because there's occasionally something amusing you can do with a type change. Probably not in this case, but it's still vaguely interesting. As is, it just gets added to the short list of things that look like they could theoretically be useful, but probably aren't useful at all. Also, fireward (SpC, 94) can totally stop a searing spell'd orb of fire. It's a thing of some kind.

[Tvtyrant]

That is definitely a classic. You can also probably awaken yourself through that method. It's actually why I considered aspect of the earth hunter at all in the first place, because there's occasionally something amusing you can do with a type change. Probably not in this case, but it's still vaguely interesting. As is, it just gets added to the short list of things that look like they could theoretically be useful, but probably aren't useful at all. Also, fireward (SpC, 94) can totally stop a searing spell'd orb of fire. It's a thing of some kind.

Well there is casting Traveler's Mount on yourself to gain +20 movement speed, Abyssal Frenzy for lots of bonuses, or Ghost Companion to kill yourself and temporarily become a ghost!

Ghost companion is a good trick actually; low level spell, works for days/level, and you can bring yourself back to life afterwards.

[eggynack]

A sixth level spell (and a first level spell) seems a bit expensive for a 20 foot speed boost, and I'm not quite sure how abyssal frenzy fits into things. Ghost companion does seem pretty sweet though. You might be stuck reincarnating yourself, instead of using one of the better reanimation spells (though come to think of it, there're some options that might be available if you suicide), and it's not really a trick unique to aspect of the earth hunter, but there's probably something cool you can do as a ghost. As is, I'm definitely taking note of both spells (still not sure why abyssal frenzy needs a type change, and the need for a high level cleric is a definite turn off).

[Tvtyrant]

A sixth level spell (and a first level spell) seems a bit expensive for a 20 foot speed boost, and I'm not quite sure how abyssal frenzy fits into things. Ghost companion does seem pretty sweet though. You might be stuck reincarnating yourself, instead of using one of the better reanimation spells (though come to think of it, there're some options that might be available if you suicide), and it's not really a trick unique to aspect of the earth hunter, but there's probably something cool you can do as a ghost. As is, I'm definitely taking note of both spells (still not sure why abyssal frenzy needs a type change, and the need for a high level cleric is a definite turn off).

I totally missed that Abyssal Frenzy worked on humanoids somehow... Oh well the one I really liked was Ghost Companion. The ability to become a ghost with a few low level spells is nice, especially if you extend it to get a couple months out of it at high levels.

One cool part about it is getting the Rejuvenation ability, which at high levels makes you completely invincible (no chance of failure so you come back from anything.)

[eggynack]

I totally missed that Abyssal Frenzy worked on humanoids somehow... Oh well the one I really liked was Ghost Companion. The ability to become a ghost with a few low level spells is nice, especially if you extend it to get a couple months out of it at high levels.

One cool part about it is getting the Rejuvenation ability, which at high levels makes you completely invincible (no chance of failure so you come back from anything.)
Yeah, that's definitely the all star of this particular optimization search. I don't know whether to be happy or sad about the fact that it also works with aspect of the wolf though. Probably a little of each. A druid could be ghosting around by third level were they so inclined, though it should probably wait until reanimation becomes readily available. Rejuvenation seems amazing as well, and is probably the thing that would actually make this worth the hassle. It turns out that I know very little about ghosts, or did until nowish.

[Tvtyrant]

I wonder if you could daisy-chain Aspect of the Wolf, Wildshape and Ghost Companion to be a permanent ghost. Aspect changes your type regardless of what it is, which allows you to re-apply Ghost Companion and reset the duration.

It has been a pleasure working with you Eggynack, now I have a whole new way to look at the Druid :smallbiggrin:

[eggynack]

I wonder if you could daisy-chain Aspect of the Wolf, Wildshape and Ghost Companion to be a permanent ghost. Aspect changes your type regardless of what it is, which allows you to re-apply Ghost Companion and reset the duration.
I can't help but think that aspect of the wolf would just turn you into a dead animal ghost, instead of an animal who is no longer a ghost. Even if the spell made you a not-ghost, I think that you would still be dead, because that's part of the spell. It would be cool though.


It has been a pleasure working with you Eggynack, now I have a whole new way to look at the Druid :smallbiggrin:
Also in your direction. Finding random new druid stuff is always the bee's knees. I do like to think that endless druid research will sometimes yield cool results, because otherwise I figure that there's little point to all of it. On a separate note, I still have no idea how owl's insight interacts with spell preparation, and similarly whether an illumian wizard with aeshkrau can cast bull's strength on himself for bonus spells. Bull's strength lacks the line about casters not getting spells off of it.

[Chronos]

So, speaking of swarm companions and Aspect of the Wolf... If a druid has a swarm of locusts as a companion, and then casts Aspect of the Wolf on it... Do you then have a swarm of wolves? Because it really looks like that to me... I don't think Aspect of the Wolf changes your subtype, which means a swarm is still a swarm.

[eggynack]

I dunno. Maybe? I mean, it says that you assume the physical appearance of a wolf, so you'd either have a wolf composed of tiny creatures, or a wolf who just so happens to also be a swarm. I don't think you'd get a swarm of wolves though. Anyway, I'm not entirely sure where this gets you, apart from weirdsville, though that's always a fine thing. Depending on how you define "extraordinary special abilities of your own form", and "extraordinary special attacks", you probably lose a bunch of swarm stuff to get to wolf. It's highly probable that you'd end up with a swarm that can only make bite attacks, which is weird.

[Chronos]

Well, really, the same question applies to any sort of transformative magic, of which druids have plenty. Normally the question doesn't arise, since swarms can't be targeted by spells that target a specific number of creatures, but sharing spells lets you bypass that limitation.

[Lyndworm]

You can share persisted "damage on contact" spells with it and then have it just move over an enemy. I agree it is inferior to a normal animal companion or even an elemental companion (which should at least keep up with SNA...) but not totally useless.
Technically, you cannot actually do this. It's pretty much impossible the share spells with a swarm because "A swarm (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#swarmSubtype) is immune to any spell or effect that targets a specific number of creatures (including single-target spells such as disintegrate), with the exception of mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects) if the swarm has an Intelligence score and a hive mind." A Druid can share spells that don't affect her companion (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/druid.htm#theDruidsAnimalCompanion) due to type, but there's no mention of subtypes or traits.

I can easily see a DM allowing this, but it's against the RaW.

As a guy that loves "pets," vermin, and swarms of things, I'm quite disappointed by this.