The Characters Can Take Too Much Punishment

[Chainsaw Hobbit]

I find that high-level OotS characters can take way too much of a pounding before going down. I know that realism isn't one of the comic's priorities, and that is fine, but any injury they receive starts to loose its meaning when it makes little to no difference.

Roy just took a truly massive amount of battle damage, including getting impaled with large objects twice, and is still alive. If he can survive that, the audience no longer cringes at every blow. Combat feels too safe.

High-level D&D characters have loads of hit points not because of superhuman durability, but because they have become very good at avoiding being badly hurt. They don't get a massive triceratops horn through the stomach and keep fighting. Only the blow that brings them down is so severe. Before that, they are mostly getting nicks and bruises.

[Porthos]

I find that high-level OotS characters can take way too much of a pounding before going down. I know that realism isn't one of the comic's priorities, and that is fine, but any injury they receive starts to loose its meaning when it makes little to no difference.

Roy just took a truly massive amount of battle damage, including getting impaled with large objects twice, and is still alive. If he can survive that, the audience no longer cringes at every blow. Combat feels too safe.

High-level D&D characters have loads of hit points not because of superhuman durability, but because they have become very good at avoiding being badly hurt. They don't get a massive triceratops horn through the stomach and keep fighting. Only the blow that brings them down is so severe. Before that, they are mostly getting nicks and bruises.

You may not exactly like it, but the comic is more or less accurately portraying one way of showing D&D damage.

For instance, the triceratops has a Gore attack which delivers 2d8+15 piercing damage.

How else are you going to show someone getting gored by a piercing attack? :smalltongue:

Yes, I know some people (including actual editions of D&D) have tried to handwave away some of the more problematic issues with HPs by including luck, stamina, and not actually being hit. But the representation here is pretty much A valid way of showing it. After all, falling damage caps out at 20d6. Which means that, theoretically, you could throw a 20th level fighter off the top of the Empire State Building, and he'd walk way from it, grumbling that he has a bit of a sore shoulder.

Real Life Physics and D&D stopped being on talking terms long ago. :smalltongue:

Ultimately, especially since this is still a parody of D&D on one level, one has to not sweat the small stuff when it comes to things like this (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BellisariosMaxim) and just accept it on its own terms. :smallsmile:

[NerdyKris]

The fact that they openly discuss hit points, saving throws, and levels doesn't bother you though? This is the world they live in. Being skewered through the chest is just a loss of hit points, not instant death. If you're having a problem with that, you probably should have noticed it 500 strips ago, because it happens quite a bit.

[Porthos]

The fact that they openly discuss hit points, saving throws, and levels doesn't bother you though? This is the world they live in. Being skewered through the chest is just a loss of hit points, not instant death. If you're having a problem with that, you probably should have noticed it 500 strips ago, because it happens quite a bit.

More than 500 strips ago, actually (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0408.html). :smallwink:

(Yes, there is the famous example of Nale and Elan. Just shows that Miko had far more HPs than Elan did. :smalltongue:)

[dancrilis]

Real Life Physics and D&D stopped being on talking terms long ago. :smalltongue:


I disagree.
They talk and even get on fairly well for the majority, they just differ on a few points which neither of them takes overly seriously.

[137beth]

Just a note, for comparison, in book XII of The Aeneid, Aeneas is seriously wounded by a single arrow from a first level warrior. For that to happen in D&D terms, even if it were a critical hit with max damage rolled, Aeneas would need to be at MOST 7th-8th level. Achilles doesn't fare much better, nor does Hector.

So when you talk about "realism" of a 13th level fighter like Roy, keep in mind that you are talking about a character who is not only beyond the abilities of any real human, but who is (if the CR system is to be believed) at LEAST 8 times as powerful as some of the strongest demigods from Greek/Roman mythology. Roy is not only beyond the "realism" of actual humans, he is beyond the "realism" of how real ancient humans imagined the sons of gods.

[Cizak]

Roy just took a truly massive amount of battle damage, including getting impaled with large objects twice, and is still alive. If he can survive that, the audience no longer cringes at every blow. Combat feels too safe.

I disagree. I cringed so hard at that last blow, and I do fear for Roy's life at the moment. Why? Because I never know which hit will be the last. Roy is obviously very badly hurt right now, judging from his wound art and what he's been through today. I have no idea exactly how much HP he has total and how much he has lost. This makes every blow count. Every blow could kill him. And that's what makes this fight one of the most intense ones we've had in a long time.

[eilandesq]

I disagree. I cringed so hard at that last blow, and I do fear for Roy's life at the moment. Why? Because I never know which hit will be the last. Roy is obviously very badly hurt right now, judging from his wound art and what he's been through today. I have no idea exactly how much HP he has total and how much he has lost. This makes every blow count. Every blow could kill him. And that's what makes this fight one of the most intense ones we've had in a long time.

My bet is "unconscious and dying," probably in the -5 to -8 HP range (for those not familiar with D&D 3.5, -1 to -9 is "unconscious and gradually bleeding to death at 1 HP/round" (with the possibility of stabilizing if left alone) and -10 buys the farm). It maximizes the drama (by leaving Roy helpless to resist the <i>coup de grace</i> but leaving his fate in doubt) while allowing at least one more round for the (inevitable?) reversal of fortune.

[BrometheusJones]

The fact that they openly discuss hit points, saving throws, and levels doesn't bother you though? This is the world they live in. Being skewered through the chest is just a loss of hit points, not instant death. If you're having a problem with that, you probably should have noticed it 500 strips ago, because it happens quite a bit.

Which raises an interesting question...

Do OOTS characters actually have any internal organs :smallconfused: ?

[Kish]

'Course they do. If they didn't, they'd be immune to Sneak Attacks.

[Zethex]

They do, but I think they'd be happier without them. Internal organs is what allows you to suffer critical strikes and sneak attacks.

EDIT: Ninja'd

[BrometheusJones]

I find that high-level OotS characters can take way too much of a pounding before going down. I know that realism isn't one of the comic's priorities, and that is fine, but any injury they receive starts to loose its meaning when it makes little to no difference.

Roy just took a truly massive amount of battle damage, including getting impaled with large objects twice, and is still alive. If he can survive that, the audience no longer cringes at every blow. Combat feels too safe.

I can agree with this sentiment.

Despite whether or not its inline with D&D convention, willing suspension of disbelief is going to tend to falter with increasingly exuberant displays of physical traumas being inflicted upon characters who just stand up and start fighting like nothing significant actually happened.

It is exciting and all, and I like the displays, as Im sure most do. But when those displays dont have any lasting, noticeable, or significant effect, the displays themselves start to become unmemorable and just routine.

[WoDHells]

Of course the have internal organs!
Or at least, they did back in the day.
Here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0006.html)'s the proof.
:smallbiggrin:

[SlashDash]

Well as others noted, this is often the case in D&D.
When the inn exploded, Haley was going over dramtic about how dangerous the fire was and V yells at her to suck it up cause it's just 1d6 damage.

That is the point...

HP damage is meant to make a simplified game, not a realistic one.
Other systems like previous editions of Shadowrun used stuff like single shots being able to take down pcs and that as you get closer to death, you begin to become more and more crippled, but D&D is simply more simplistic that way.

[Blisstake]

Roy just took a truly massive amount of battle damage, including getting impaled with large objects twice, and is still alive. If he can survive that, the audience no longer cringes at every blow. Combat feels too safe.

Are we supposed to cringe?

Long combat scenes like this go a long way in establishing just how much Roy can take a beating compared to many of the other characters who are often out in a few hits.

High HP doesn't change whether combat is safe or not. If someone is going to die as part of the story, then they're going to die. The number of hits changes nothing.

[dancrilis]

In fairness Tarquin can take a lot on pun (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0761.html)ishment also.

[King of Nowhere]

High-level D&D characters have loads of hit points not because of superhuman durability, but because they have become very good at avoiding being badly hurt. They don't get a massive triceratops horn through the stomach and keep fighting. Only the blow that brings them down is so severe. Before that, they are mostly getting nicks and bruises.

I don't know if there is some "canon" for that, but I always made it otherwise. I always said that high level characters do get the same wide internal damage as everyone else, but they just keep fighting no matter what. they would die shortly thereafter, but then they are going to receive magical healing, so it don't matter. It has a bit of realism: a guy impaled through the chest can fall down and die in a few minutes, but he can also go on and kill everybody for a few minutes before blood loss and lack of oxygen bring him down. Because no matter how badly hurt are the internal organs, unless the brain is terminally damaged, the body can still go on for a while. To address the most extreme cases of that, I devised a sort of magical explanation: some souls can remain attached to their bodies through sheer willpower even when the body should be dead, and when a weaker soul would have left the body already. To make this consistent, I added a houserule that a high level character losing a high amount of hp is going to eventually die if his wounds are not treated. I never developed numbers for it because with a cleric and a paladin in the party, and everyone with some healing potion, there was never the risk of them running out of healing.
Another supporting magical explanation is that the body of someone high level is no longer a mere mortal, but has a supernatural capability to resist damage. it is harder than mere matter should allow it to be.
A mix of those three explanations worked fine to me.

Yes, I know it's not perfect. but I still prefer this to the alternative "you got nicked by a greatsword, getting a minor cut. 5 times this round" or "a spear got a critical on you, hitting one of your vital organs. but you could take ten more blows like that and still be up and fighting so... you got a scratch on your arm; did i say critical? well, it is an uncomfortable scratch".



I disagree. I cringed so hard at that last blow, and I do fear for Roy's life at the moment. Why? Because I never know which hit will be the last. Roy is obviously very badly hurt right now, judging from his wound art and what he's been through today. I have no idea exactly how much HP he has total and how much he has lost. This makes every blow count. Every blow could kill him. And that's what makes this fight one of the most intense ones we've had in a long time.
Me too

[elros]

I assumed they were drinking potions off panel.

I also fall back on the Giant's idea that "someone has as many hit points as the plot requires."

[ti'esar]

Of course the have internal organs!
Or at least, they did back in the day.
Here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0006.html)'s the proof.
:smallbiggrin:

And rather more recently. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0780.html)

[FlawedParadigm]

Ah, another thread wherein we're going to be seeing a whole lot of dead catgirls.

[Kish]

Ah, another thread wherein we're going to be seeing a whole lot of dead catgirls.
Jacinda can probably take as much punishment as--well, at least as much as Haley, and more than Laurin or Miron.

[Reddish Mage]

The fact that they openly discuss hit points, saving throws, and levels doesn't bother you though? This is the world they live in. Being skewered through the chest is just a loss of hit points, not instant death. If you're having a problem with that, you probably should have noticed it 500 strips ago, because it happens quite a bit.

Shouldn't the problem be that Tarquin hit both Elan and Roy with one hit (not allowable as far as I know in the game mechanics, unless he has some home brew variation on cleave).

[WarKirby]

i have to agree here. I know ro is tough, but he's been taking punishment all day. there was the battle on top of the pyramid, and the stuff in the trapped corridor, and the giant sand golem doing really nasty things to him, and then a million crossbow bolts in the face, some dinosaur goring, and now a sword through the chest.

actually i was pretty much of this opinion while he was doing the golem thing. all the rest since then has been beyond belief, why won't he die.

[Domino Quartz]

i have to agree here. I know ro is tough, but he's been taking punishment all day. there was the battle on top of the pyramid, and the stuff in the trapped corridor, and the giant sand golem doing really nasty things to him, and then a million crossbow bolts in the face, some dinosaur goring, and now a sword through the chest.

actually i was pretty much of this opinion while he was doing the golem thing. all the rest since then has been beyond belief, why won't he die.

Do you want him to?

[Kish]

i have to agree here. I know ro is tough, but he's been taking punishment all day.
Except when he was drinking healing potions.

In other words, if you're calculating how much damage Roy should take from him being injured before Durkon rejoined the party, I'd suggest you recalculate.

(If you're just saying you don't like the hit point system, well, certainly no one can argue with that.)

[Ghost Nappa]

i have to agree here. I know ro is tough, but he's been taking punishment all day. there was the battle on top of the pyramid, and the stuff in the trapped corridor, and the giant sand golem doing really nasty things to him, and then a million crossbow bolts in the face, some dinosaur goring, and now a sword through the chest.

actually i was pretty much of this opinion while he was doing the golem thing. all the rest since then has been beyond belief, why won't he die.

:roy: I don't almost survive climactic battles, (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0443.html) but when I do, I drink a lot (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0920.html) of potions and (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0909.html) get magic heals. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0900.html)

[BroomGuys]

I think comparison to the real world or even a raw measurement of internal consistency is too simplistic a way of measuring how easy suspension of disbelief is. I have accepted some truly ludicrous premises in several stories simply because, welp, that's the way things are in this story. I mean, I'm not going to tell you you're wrong when you say it hurts your own suspension of disbelief, but this is a world where magic exists. When a story's physics allow for someone to turn someone else into a newt by saying the right words, I don't find it much of a stretch to assume that story also allows people to take an awful lot of stab/impalement wounds without dying from it.

Obviously this sort of thing is subjective, but there's a lot more that goes into suspension of disbelief than raw realism.

[OPM]

Personally, I suspect that Elan is using a Dashing Hero feat to shield his friend, but that's just random speculation on my part.

[Koo Rehtorb]

I don't think there's any escaping the fact that the high level characters in Order of the Stick are literal superhumans.

[Zrak]

Just a note, for comparison, in book XII of The Aeneid, Aeneas is seriously wounded by a single arrow from a first level warrior. For that to happen in D&D terms, even if it were a critical hit with max damage rolled, Aeneas would need to be at MOST 7th-8th level. Achilles doesn't fare much better, nor does Hector.

Not that Achilles chills with realism or any other conception of heroism on much better terms. I mean, dude dies from getting shot in the heel. Not dying from that is one of the few feats for which we mortals are right on par with the likes Beowulf and Dian Wei. Hold our breath for like a week while we crawl under a swamp, looking for a giant's sword? Newp. Fight like a kajillion guys with gigantic iron pikes in each hand? Probably not. Step on a nail and not just straight-up die from it? Sure, unless you're Achilles.

I mean, there's the explanation that Paris poisoned the arrow, but if we're accepting that, Achilles could be basically any level.

[Bulldog Psion]

It's part of the charm, along with the fact, for example, that they have no noses yet are capable of smelling. :smallsmile:

[137beth]

Shouldn't the problem be that Tarquin hit both Elan and Roy with one hit (not allowable as far as I know in the game mechanics, unless he has some home brew variation on cleave).
One homebrew feat coming up!

Tarquin's Family Shish-Kabob Recipe
Prerequisites: Strength 15, Cleave, Power Attack
Benefits: When you damage a target with melee weapon that deals Piercing or Slashing damage, your weapon travels through the target and out the other end. If any other opponents are behind your target and within your reach, you may attack them as well. A separate attack roll must be made for each target, and you must damage (including overcoming the target's Damage Reduction) each opponent in order to hit any opponents behind them.
Additionally, after piercing one or more creatures in this manner, you may make an additional unarmed strike if you have a hand free and yell "Served with a tall glass of PUNCH!"






Not that Achilles chills with realism or any other conception of heroism on much better terms. I mean, dude dies from getting shot in the heel. Not dying from that is one of the few feats for which we mortals are right on par with the likes Beowulf and Dian Wei. Hold our breath for like a week while we crawl under a swamp, looking for a giant's sword? Newp. Fight like a kajillion guys with gigantic iron pikes in each hand? Probably not. Step on a nail and not just straight-up die from it? Sure, unless you're Achilles.

I mean, there's the explanation that Paris poisoned the arrow, but if we're accepting that, Achilles could be basically any level.
Well, I guess Achilles might have rolled a natural 1 on his saving throw...twice:smallconfused:
That would give him 6d6 constitution damage if it were something like black lotus extract, which could reasonably kill any D&D character who doesn't have an item or something making them immune to ability damage...so maybe it means Paris got a critical hit, and Achilles rolled two natural 1s in a row?
And of course if the poison on the arrow was an injury poison, that would tell us that the arrow did more damage than Achilles' DR, so he couldn't be too powerful...
unless it was a contact poison, in which case why didn't someone just apply contact poison to another part of his body?

Okay, I'll admit it, nothing about Achilles' power or weaknesses makes sense either in D&D or in real life. But there isn't really anything new about that statement...the Illiad had enough nonsensical things without throwing D&D into the mix:smalltongue:

[skim172]

The heroes can lose in more than one way. You're right, it may take away the dramatic edge somewhat if the characters can shake off almost any damage and live. In the real world, pain and hurt are real and life is fragile - a sword through the gut would either kill you or require intense surgery and painful recovery over months and years. So it is a little less dramatic in the Stick-verse, where a sword through the gut is simply dismissed as "non-fatal."

And the Stick-verse also has plenty of ways to get around the whole "dying" thing. When Resurrection is just a matter of finding the right cleric, death does indeed lose its sting.

That's not that unusual. In most fiction, protagonists are protected by "plot armor." We generally know the main character is probably not gonna die, unless it's a very poignant and well-foreshadowed death. So Gandalf is not gonna have a sudden stroke and keel over on the way to Mordor - he's gonna die sacrificing himself for the greater good, yadda yadda yadda.


But a protagonist doesn't have to die in order to lose. A good story needs to create the possibility that even alive, the protagonist might fail. Or, that the protagonist might succeed in a different way than imagined.

Is there a possibility that the Order might fail - or at least, fail to succeed in the way they expected? I think so - that big sword in the stomach seems like a negative.

[Zrak]

Well, I guess Achilles might have rolled a natural 1 on his saving throw...twice:smallconfused:
That would give him 6d6 constitution damage if it were something like black lotus extract, which could reasonably kill any D&D character who doesn't have an item or something making them immune to ability damage...so maybe it means Paris got a critical hit, and Achilles rolled two natural 1s in a row?
And of course if the poison on the arrow was an injury poison, that would tell us that the arrow did more damage than Achilles' DR, so he couldn't be too powerful...
unless it was a contact poison, in which case why didn't someone just apply contact poison to another part of his body?

Okay, I'll admit it, nothing about Achilles' power or weaknesses makes sense either in D&D or in real life. But there isn't really anything new about that statement...the Illiad had enough nonsensical things without throwing D&D into the mix:smalltongue:

I think the best way to look at Achilles from a D&D perspective is to consider the Gods as Pissed Off DMs. After Achilles slaughters Hector, a decent and honorable NPC, he not only denies him the honorable death he asks for, but grotesquely drags his corpse behind his chariot for, like, two weeks. At that point, Achilles gets critically hit and killed by an arrow from the most embarrassingly pathetic NPC in the campaign, since it was a critical hit with DR You Fail poison that caused 100dInfinity constitution damage.


But a protagonist doesn't have to die in order to lose. A good story needs to create the possibility that even alive, the protagonist might fail. Or, that the protagonist might succeed in a different way than imagined.

"Show me a hero and I'll write you a tragedy."

[factotum]

Other systems like previous editions of Shadowrun used stuff like single shots being able to take down pcs and that as you get closer to death, you begin to become more and more crippled, but D&D is simply more simplistic that way.

From the point of view of a game, the D&D system is actually better. I played Rolemaster (and its SF variant Spacemaster) back in the day, and while instant death from a luckily rolled E critical is great when you're doing it against an enemy, it's not so much fun when said enemy does the same against you. Bear in mind you might have been playing the same character for months or possibly even years in real time, and losing them to a couple of unlucky dice rolls isn't fun.

At least in the D&D system it would generally take more than a couple of bad rolls to kill you, unless the DM decided to put your level 7 party up against an ancient red dragon or something like that!

[Liliet]

I don't know whether it's about suspension of disbelief or what, but I found out this comic that I don't care anymore. Roy getting pierced is not dramatic for me because there's Elan on top of him who is supposed to survive this.

Of course, when I go meta and calculate the odds, I can accept that there's something to worry about, but when I go meta I immediately see narrative tendencies that say "NO SORRY ROY'S NOT DYING TODAY".

I worry about Durkon, even though, narratively speaking, his chances to die here are much lower than Roy's. But I can't worry about Roy. It's just one unrealistic detail too much.

[theNater]

Roy just took a truly massive amount of battle damage, including getting impaled with large objects twice, and is still alive. If he can survive that, the audience no longer cringes at every blow. Combat feels too safe.
I don't have to fear for someone's life to cringe when they get hit. Even if it's not lethal, getting impaled has been (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0762.html) noted (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0201.html) as being extremely painful.

In real life, breaking a leg isn't usually lethal, but I'm still gonna cringe if I see it happen.

[Souhiro]

Which raises an interesting question...

Do OOTS characters actually have any internal organs :smallconfused: ?

Oh yes, they have. Look (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/images/DKblo8n5eLkfCxuPgGk.gif). But then, think that most wounds in Real Life™ leave sequels. If you break a bone, even if you heal it, you will feel some pain where the fracture was when it's specially cold. After a gruesome accident you could need months of rehab, and you'll never will get to the prime phisical you were before.

But in D&D, you can be impaled, beaten and cut to almost death (if you have 14 CON, you could be beaten to -13) then somehow, you stabilice yourself, and with luck, after some days you can walk again, go to a town, rest in a inn... in no more than two weeks, you're back to your prime! No rehab, no special care... you doesn't even need to dissinfect your wounds! only rest. We're not talking about magic, but only natural healing.

What it's true is that Roy must have a truckload of HP. It's fair: since he's a fighter after all, and should have a good CON bonus (And a good Lvl-14 fighter could easily have way more than 100HP)

[Poppy Appletree]

Do OOTS characters actually have any internal organs :smallconfused: ?

'Course they do. If they didn't, they'd be immune to Sneak Attacks.

Can I sig this? :smallbiggrin:


(if you have 14 CON, you could be beaten to -13)

I'm not aware of that being a thing. Which edition are you playing? :smallconfused:

[Kish]

Can I sig this? :smallbiggrin:
Certainly.

[Smolder]

It helps that major characters are dropping like flies. No lack of dramatic tension here.

[Souhiro]

Can I sig this? :smallbiggrin:



I'm not aware of that being a thing. Which edition are you playing? :smallconfused:
Errr... sorry, it was Pathfinder. Even then, you could be at -9, then stabilice yourself, wake up, apply first aid to yourself, etc, etc, etc.
A Lvl-5 Barbarian, with Max HD and +3 CON would have 75 HP, he would need near two weeks to recover from massive beating. An a squishy Lvl-5 Wizard with a +1 CON would fully recover in only seven days!

No sequels, no need to even take an antibiotic for having your guts in the ground, no scars, even. Yes, having your character undergoing long, painful, sad, dramatic and -most importing- boring rehab, isn't what I want when I'm going to PLAY a game. So it's something I accept, just like when the dragon keeps fighting with the same ferocity when he has 1HP left or when he has 100.

It's a game, it's fun. We don't need any more.

[AstralFire]

Oh yes, they have. Look (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/images/DKblo8n5eLkfCxuPgGk.gif). But then, think that most wounds in Real Life™ leave sequels. If you break a bone, even if you heal it, you will feel some pain where the fracture was when it's specially cold. After a gruesome accident you could need months of rehab, and you'll never will get to the prime phisical you were before.

But in D&D, you can be impaled, beaten and cut to almost death (if you have 14 CON, you could be beaten to -13)

That's a (somewhat common) house rule, not a rule.

[thereaper]

I find that high-level OotS characters can take way too much of a pounding before going down. I know that realism isn't one of the comic's priorities, and that is fine, but any injury they receive starts to loose its meaning when it makes little to no difference.

Roy just took a truly massive amount of battle damage, including getting impaled with large objects twice, and is still alive. If he can survive that, the audience no longer cringes at every blow. Combat feels too safe.

High-level D&D characters have loads of hit points not because of superhuman durability, but because they have become very good at avoiding being badly hurt. They don't get a massive triceratops horn through the stomach and keep fighting. Only the blow that brings them down is so severe. Before that, they are mostly getting nicks and bruises.

Then explain how 20th level fighters can swim in lava. There's no luck or damage avoidance there. The only way to explain that is that the characters truly are superhumanly durable.

[Scurvy Cur]

I dunno. If Roy weren't able to take at least 4 gore attacks from a Triceratops, I would be wondering why his con modifier is so low. We know he's taken 3 or so big injuries since "I also haf potions": One Triceratops gore, One Allosaurus bite, and one Tarquin shish-kebab. There are a handful of nickel and dime injuries there too, but certainly not enough to drop a high level fighter.

Fighters don't excel at much, but they do excel at soaking HP damage. Everyone else in the PC party has superhuman powers. One of the few that D&D leaves to Roy is "gobs of HP". Let's not begrudge the guy a little bit of insane toughness.

[ReaderAt2046]

Not that Achilles chills with realism or any other conception of heroism on much better terms. I mean, dude dies from getting shot in the heel. Not dying from that is one of the few feats for which we mortals are right on par with the likes Beowulf and Dian Wei. Hold our breath for like a week while we crawl under a swamp, looking for a giant's sword? Newp. Fight like a kajillion guys with gigantic iron pikes in each hand? Probably not. Step on a nail and not just straight-up die from it? Sure, unless you're Achilles.

I mean, there's the explanation that Paris poisoned the arrow, but if we're accepting that, Achilles could be basically any level.

From what I've read, using the River Styx concentrated all his vulnerability into his mortal point (in his case the heel). So getting hit anywhere else does no damage, but a hit right at the right point does 10 or 20 times the damage to compensate.

[WoDHells]

And rather more recently. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0780.html)

Holy cr4p! I just noticed that that guy's name was Evisceratus! (it shows in the list held by the guard (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0782.html)). I didn't notice it before, and it's brilliant :smallbiggrin:

[King of Nowhere]

From the point of view of a game, the D&D system is actually better. I played Rolemaster (and its SF variant Spacemaster) back in the day, and while instant death from a luckily rolled E critical is great when you're doing it against an enemy, it's not so much fun when said enemy does the same against you. Bear in mind you might have been playing the same character for months or possibly even years in real time, and losing them to a couple of unlucky dice rolls isn't fun.

At least in the D&D system it would generally take more than a couple of bad rolls to kill you, unless the DM decided to put your level 7 party up against an ancient red dragon or something like that!

In D&D there are resurrection spells. what's the point of them if the pcs cannot die? basically those spells turn the suspence of "i can die" into "i can lose a level and a cartload of money", or "i can lose no level but a wagonload of money" for true resurrection. that is an acceptable risk to have for a few bad dice rolls. I always felt the rules are way too protective towards the pcs.


I don't know whether it's about suspension of disbelief or what, but I found out this comic that I don't care anymore. Roy getting pierced is not dramatic for me because there's Elan on top of him who is supposed to survive this.

Of course, when I go meta and calculate the odds, I can accept that there's something to worry about, but when I go meta I immediately see narrative tendencies that say "NO SORRY ROY'S NOT DYING TODAY".


Just a question, how is that any differet from, I don't know, ANY OTHER STORY? did you wonder if bond is going to die when you see a 007 movie? did you felt frodo was in danger when escaping moria?
while sometimes protagonistws can die, they tend to die dramatically at the end of the story, where it is convenient. so if the middle of it you just know they are not gonna die. roy risking to lose a level by resurrection is already a greater risk than most heroes are taking. So if you want to apply that reasoning, you may as well stop rreading or watching any kind of media right now.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

In D&D there are resurrection spells. what's the point of them if the pcs cannot die?

This is a strawman. He didn't say that in D&D PCs can't die. He said that it is nice that it takes more than a couple of unlucky rolls to die. Which is true: on one end of the spectrum, there is D&D where warriors need to be hit multiple times with magical flaming meteorites to kill them. On the other end of the spectrum, paranoia starts you off with five clones, since everything from breathing on up is grounds for the computer to kill you.

Now, you can disagree what is more fun in each system (probably what you prefer correlates strongly with your risk aversion score), but please address the argument, not the strawman.

Grey Wolf

[Diadem]

I think the best way to look at Achilles from a D&D perspective is to consider the Gods as Pissed Off DMs. After Achilles slaughters Hector, a decent and honorable NPC, he not only denies him the honorable death he asks for, but grotesquely drags his corpse behind his chariot for, like, two weeks. At that point, Achilles gets critically hit and killed by an arrow from the most embarrassingly pathetic NPC in the campaign, since it was a critical hit with DR You Fail poison that caused 100dInfinity constitution damage.

Also, Achilles was invulnerable to all damage except at his heel. He was dipped into the river Styx by his mother when he was a babe, making him invulnerable. Except that his mother held him by his ankle while dipping him, so his heel was never touched by the water.

So in D&D terms, Achilles' level may not have been very high. You don't need very high combat stats when you can just walk up to your enemies and straight up murder them. Mechanically, you could say he had a huge level adjust for being invulnerable.

Anyway, the gods were aware of his weakness. So all they had to do was make Paris' arrow fly true.

[JBiddles]

I find that high-level OotS characters can take way too much of a pounding before going down. I know that realism isn't one of the comic's priorities, and that is fine, but any injury they receive starts to loose its meaning when it makes little to no difference.

Roy just took a truly massive amount of battle damage, including getting impaled with large objects twice, and is still alive. If he can survive that, the audience no longer cringes at every blow. Combat feels too safe.

High-level D&D characters have loads of hit points not because of superhuman durability, but because they have become very good at avoiding being badly hurt. They don't get a massive triceratops horn through the stomach and keep fighting. Only the blow that brings them down is so severe. Before that, they are mostly getting nicks and bruises.

D&D is a game involving the supernatural, and OOTS is a webcomic involving supernatural PCs. Vaarsuvius can make lightning by wiggling her fingers and shouting; Haley can dodge something dozens of feet wide that hits her squarely in the face; Elan can make such dreadful puns that they deal physical damage; Durkon can casually ignore Conservation of Energy by asking very nicely; Belkar can slice through half an army with two daggers; and Xykon doesn't even have a brain, let alone other internal organs, and yet he's tougher (and smarter) than before he became a lich.

For the game, and more importantly the comic, to be balanced, Fighters can't be entirely mundane. Roy Greenhilt is one of the best physical Fighters alive in OOTS, and he's very much superhuman. He can cut through solid stone, shatter stone pillars with his body, take meteors to the face, and yes, shrug off some internal organ trauma. Even Vaarsuvius, the squishiest PC, is far tougher than a normal human (or elf).

If you want an explanation, all classes become magical after a certain level, and the magic expresses itself differently depending on class (so Epic characters can Balance on clouds, steal people's clothes whilst they're wearing them, etc.) . Fighters' innate magic holds their bodies together and allows their internal organs to continue functioning to the bitter end.




From what I've read, using the River Styx concentrated all his vulnerability into his mortal point (in his case the heel). So getting hit anywhere else does no damage, but a hit right at the right point does 10 or 20 times the damage to compensate.

Versions of the myth vary. In one, Achilles' mother Thetis had sent all of her previous children to be immortal and live amongst the gods of Olympus by anointing them with ambrosia and burning away their mortality. Thetis did the same to Achilles, but his father snatched him from the fire before the process was complete. In another, he was held by his ankle and dipped in the Styx, which made him invulnerable, but his ankle remained dry. The only part of Achilles that remained mortal was his ankle; therefore, his ankle was almost like a phylactery, and destroying it, or rather doing it a lot of damage, killed him.

[AstralFire]

Also, Achilles was invulnerable to all damage except at his heel. He was dipped into the river Styx by his mother when he was a babe, making him invulnerable. Except that his mother held him by his ankle while dipping him, so his heel was never touched by the water.

So in D&D terms, Achilles' level may not have been very high. You don't need very high combat stats when you can just walk up to your enemies and straight up murder them. Mechanically, you could say he had a huge level adjust for being invulnerable.

Anyway, the gods were aware of his weakness. So all they had to do was make Paris' arrow fly true.

Can we just try some other analogy besides Achilles? Because Greek myths vary too much. The Iliad version of Achilles actually predates Thetis and the River Styx; no mention of his immortality is given there, OR that he was even killed. He's presented as simply being very good.

[Shatteredtower]

When I'm told that the amount of punishment a character in this comic or a D&D game can take is unrealistic, I think of all of the things I see characters shrug off in movies. D&D players aren't the only ones that would prefer to let their characters keep moving from one action sequence to the next without regard for any objections Reality might have.

I'd rather treat character death as an inconvenience than have to keep finding contrived replacements all the time. In a well run game, NPC death will be mourned no less by the players. That seems to hold true for this comic as well, even while we've reason to believe that at least one of the PCs is living on borrowed time now.

[Liliet]

Just a question, how is that any differet from, I don't know, ANY OTHER STORY? did you wonder if bond is going to die when you see a 007 movie? did you felt frodo was in danger when escaping moria?
while sometimes protagonistws can die, they tend to die dramatically at the end of the story, where it is convenient. so if the middle of it you just know they are not gonna die. roy risking to lose a level by resurrection is already a greater risk than most heroes are taking. So if you want to apply that reasoning, you may as well stop rreading or watching any kind of media right now.

I never saw a Bond movie and am not going to, thank you very much.

Other than that, it doesn't even take another story. In that very strip, I worry about Durkon, because I see with my own eyes that he is in danger and it is treated as such.

I can't worry about Roy not because he's narratively unlikely to die here, but because I'm thrown out of my suspension of disbelief with a huge explosion. See: Elan expected to survive the greatsword through the chest.

[Tvtyrant]

I just finished watching Thor II, and I can safely say I have no problem with high level characters taking an impossible beating.

I do actually have problems with the existence of high level characters in that I feel they make rational world building all but impossible and I don't like individuals tanking armies, but if they exist then they should be able to do it.

[Porthos]

This debate reminds me of the "I need a vacation" line from Terminator 2. :smallbiggrin:

Yes, Arnie was a cyborg there. Still, the line resonates here for some reason. :smalltongue:

[JBiddles]

I never saw a Bond movie and am not going to, thank you very much.

Other than that, it doesn't even take another story. In that very strip, I worry about Durkon, because I see with my own eyes that he is in danger and it is treated as such.

I can't worry about Roy not because he's narratively unlikely to die here, but because I'm thrown out of my suspension of disbelief with a huge explosion. See: Elan expected to survive the greatsword through the chest.

Elan can make people better at tasks by singing, cause instant healing, and perform other supernatural feats, but being magically tough enough to withstand internal organ damage and a magical explosion (whilst shielded) is too much? Roy is supernaturally durable, but we clearly know that he is near death.

[Liliet]

Elan can make people better at tasks by singing, cause instant healing, and perform other supernatural feats, but being magically tough enough to withstand internal organ damage and a magical explosion (whilst shielded) is too much? Roy is supernaturally durable, but we clearly know that he is near death.
What magical explosion? I'm saying that I can't feel danger on Roy when he's shielded by Elan who's supposedly pretty okay.

And yes, suspension of disbelief is weird that way. It works perfectly, and then it suddenly snaps and you just can't see it anymore. One oddity too much. The last straw on the camel's back.

[orrion]

What magical explosion? I'm saying that I can't feel danger on Roy when he's shielded by Elan who's supposedly pretty okay.

And yes, suspension of disbelief is weird that way. It works perfectly, and then it suddenly snaps and you just can't see it anymore. One oddity too much. The last straw on the camel's back.

The magical explosion would be Girard's Gate going boom, which they survived Indy-style.

Problem with the camel's back thing in this case is that everything still falls under DnD.. so if you have a problem with their system, fine. I don't see the point of slamming the comic for operating under it, though.

[BroomGuys]

Elan can make people better at tasks by singing, cause instant healing, and perform other supernatural feats, but being magically tough enough to withstand internal organ damage and a magical explosion (whilst shielded) is too much? Roy is supernaturally durable, but we clearly know that he is near death.

This is kind of a legitimate issue of analysis. A raw comparison of the comic to "realism" does not necessarily correlate to the level of strain on suspension of disbelief because some details are more prominent in our perception. So it's a valid piece of evidence to say "I feel my suspension of disbelief weakened about ______" but that a person's suspension of disbelief is weakened does not have a one-to-one relationship with the immanent characteristics of a piece of fiction. Some people know different things, like, how fast Roy should've been going according to real-world physics when he fell from Xykon's Zombie Dragon, or how well Roy would probably have had to roll several times in a row to survive the beatings he's been given (although I'm not sure if we can know this that precisely, since I haven't read the Geekery thread).

But there's even more to it than that. What about what mood you're in when the comic comes out? If you've had too much coffee that morning (although I consider this scenario impossible) then you might perceive Roy's danger as more pressing because you yourself are a bit jittery and anxious. Conversely, if you're low on energy and bored, you might just go "meh, Roy'll be ok, there's no way he'll die here AGAIN" or whatever reason you don't take the threat to Roy's safety seriously. This is just a couple of examples of possibilities, of course; my main point is that perception is a complex and tricky business.

So with all that said, my opinion is that the danger the whole Oots is in right now is presented very effectively as a threat. This does not, however, mean that this aspect of the dramatic tension will work for everybody in the audience (although it does work for me).

[King of Nowhere]

This is a strawman. He didn't say that in D&D PCs can't die. He said that it is nice that it takes more than a couple of unlucky rolls to die. Which is true: on one end of the spectrum, there is D&D where warriors need to be hit multiple times with magical flaming meteorites to kill them. On the other end of the spectrum, paranoia starts you off with five clones, since everything from breathing on up is grounds for the computer to kill you.

Now, you can disagree what is more fun in each system (probably what you prefer correlates strongly with your risk aversion score), but please address the argument, not the strawman.

Grey Wolf
neither did i say that he said pc can't die. maybe i didn't explain myself properly.
the argument was that since a pc is something a player may invest months or years on, it is a good thing for them to be difficult to kill in normal conditions. it sucks to lose a pc to a couple of bad rolls.
what I argued is that in D&D there are resurrection spells, so you don't really risk losing the pc. therefore, you can afford a higher chance to have them killed. in a sci-fi setting without anything resembling resurrection, having rules for instant death sucks. you play years with the same character, and then the lamest enemy roll three 20s in a row and kill him. In D&D it just cost you some gp, so it's not that bad. you can afford a gaming system that is riskier for the players.

[jere7my]

High-level D&D characters have loads of hit points not because of superhuman durability, but because they have become very good at avoiding being badly hurt. They don't get a massive triceratops horn through the stomach and keep fighting. Only the blow that brings them down is so severe. Before that, they are mostly getting nicks and bruises.

The problem with that interpretation: Say a tenth-level fighter (100hp) and a commoner (4hp) are lying next to each other in the hospital, after having been brought to 0 hit points by a dagger. For the commoner, the dagger blow was the first (and last) thing that hit her; for the fighter, it was the final blow in an epic multi-round duel that whittled down her hit points without doing any real bodily damage until that final blow.

Left to their own devices, the fighter will heal 20 hp per day (twice her character level for complete bed-rest), and the commoner will heal 2 hp per day. The commoner will be fully healed in two days; the fighter will still be lying there three days after the commoner's gone home. That makes no sense on its face, and less sense if you imagine the fighter to be a particularly tough, fit, high-CON kind of person.

With magical healing, things get even worse. If a string of first-level clerics come in to cast cure light wounds on them, the commoner will probably be fully healed after a single casting, but the fighter will go through about 22 clerics before she's at full strength.

[Porthos]

I also think, to a degree, the view of what HPs represent has changed over the decades. Take my example before about how various editions said that HP loss wasn't just physcial injuries.

IIRC, in those earlier editions it would say that if a PC was in a trapped room with no escape and enough water immediately poured in to drown you, they were dead. Full stop. Waiting around for HPs to finally be extingiushed be damned (I forget the exact example but it was pretty much a "If you're in a situation that would kill a person flat dead, you're dead no matter how many hit points you have. Stop whining."). This naturally was the counter to the "I can swim in a river of lava for a few rounds lololololololol" arguments that even then were being trotted out.

But nowadays, the swiming in a river of lava gets a lot less pushback.

Why?

Don't ask me to explain. Personally I point to 30+ years of computer RPGs, but everyone has a theory. :smallwink:

[Doug Lampert]

The problem with that interpretation: Say a tenth-level fighter (100hp) and a commoner (4hp) are lying next to each other in the hospital, after having been brought to 0 hit points by a dagger. For the commoner, the dagger blow was the first (and last) thing that hit her; for the fighter, it was the final blow in an epic multi-round duel that whittled down her hit points without doing any real bodily damage until that final blow.

So in other words, the same ratio as at LEVEL 1 when the fighter had 10 HP and still took 5 days. The level is irrelevant to your example. The commoner collapses with 2 days worth of healing worth of wounds because he goes down easier, true at level 1, true at level 50.

The fighter goes down with about 5 days worth of wounds, because he's just that tough that he can take more damage prior to going down. ~5 days at level 1, ~5 days at level 20, ~5 days at level 5,000. Sure looks like ALL the extra HP for level are being more skilled at dodging according to your argument above.

[AgentofHellfire]

The problem with that interpretation: Say a tenth-level fighter (100hp) and a commoner (4hp) are lying next to each other in the hospital, after having been brought to 0 hit points by a dagger. For the commoner, the dagger blow was the first (and last) thing that hit her; for the fighter, it was the final blow in an epic multi-round duel that whittled down her hit points without doing any real bodily damage until that final blow.

Left to their own devices, the fighter will heal 20 hp per day (twice her character level for complete bed-rest), and the commoner will heal 2 hp per day. The commoner will be fully healed in two days; the fighter will still be lying there three days after the commoner's gone home. That makes no sense on its face, and less sense if you imagine the fighter to be a particularly tough, fit, high-CON kind of person.

With magical healing, things get even worse. If a string of first-level clerics come in to cast cure light wounds on them, the commoner will probably be fully healed after a single casting, but the fighter will go through about 22 clerics before she's at full strength.

But here's the thing: A fighter will be able to engage in another multi-round duel sooner than the commoner will be able to take that one dagger hit again. Because they'll already be at five times the commoner's maximum hp totals (and therefore very much up and active, not lying there) by that first day. They'd be a slightly beneath peak efficiency for a bit, but they'd be up at the same time.

[Porthos]

If we want a Real World analogy to HP recovery over several days, you could point to a sport like the NFL where there they take several days off to recuperate between games.

The risk of injury is one reason a lot of players don't like the quick Sunday to Thursday turnaround when they play a Thursday Night Football game. They say that they need those extra couple of days to recover.

Now this isn't the same has broken legs and what not. But if one wants a model of 'rest and recuperation' to get back HP, you could do worse than looking at professional athletes. Especially ones in highly demanding physical sports.

[jere7my]

So in other words, the same ratio as at LEVEL 1 when the fighter had 10 HP and still took 5 days. The level is irrelevant to your example. The commoner collapses with 2 days worth of healing worth of wounds because he goes down easier, true at level 1, true at level 50.

It's relevant because we expect high-level fighters to be back on their feet after a brush with death more quickly than the baker's niece. Anyway, if a commoner "collapses with 2 days worth of healing worth of wounds because he goes down easier," shouldn't a first-level fighter also "go down easier" than a 10th level fighter?


The fighter goes down with about 5 days worth of wounds, because he's just that tough that he can take more damage prior to going down.

More damage. Not more close shaves and daring escapes and nicks and scratches. If significant physical damage weren't being done, days of bed rest wouldn't be needed to recover. Going by the "only the last blow does real bodily harm" theory, a 100hp fighter down to 50hp shouldn't be significantly wounded at all, but she'd still need several days in a hospital to recover from the...what? Exertion? If that were the case, wouldn't a fighter need bed rest after twenty rounds of combat whether she'd been wounded or not?


~5 days at level 1, ~5 days at level 20, ~5 days at level 5,000. Sure looks like ALL the extra HP for level are being more skilled at dodging according to your argument above.

Until you start looking at magical healing. The "1-2 hp per level per day" was a kludge added in 3E to attempt to address the issue, but it only mucked it up further.

And hey, look: folks with higher CONs heal more slowly with bedrest. O_o

[Kish]

I would think that a spell that reliably cures however many wounds have been suffered by a first-level--rogue, let's say, restores her to full health, and lets her stroll out of a hospital room when she was inches from death when she came in (Cure Moderate Wounds)...

...should really do the same thing when she's 20 times as powerful, shouldn't it? Unless she's been building up nonoptional magic resistance along with her other skills, but the wizard who casts Cat's Grace on her says she hasn't.

The D&D system has a lot of strong points, but I don't consider the realism of hit points to be one of them.

[jere7my]

If we want a Real World analogy to HP recovery over several days, you could point to a sport like the NFL where there they take several days off to recuperate between games.

If exertion causes hit point damage, the fighter should take damage regardless of whether she's hit or not.

[Porthos]

If exertion causes hit point damage, the fighter should take damage regardless of whether she's hit or not.

Like Kish, this isn't a rabbit hole I wish to go down too far. :smallwink: But I would point out that in sports like baseball you can play every day. Well, almost. You get three days out of two weeks off, more or less.

So for a fighter, not getting injured would represent the less stressful aspects of baseball, while getting injured might represent the more physically taxing contact sports like football, basketball*, boxing et all. :smallsmile:

* NOTE: I realize that basketball is supposed to be a non-contact sport. Tell that to any modern watcher of the game. :smalltongue:

[rodneyAnonymous]

Not super relevant, but I would absolutely not allow a character to swim through lava for any distance or length of time, lava is melted (liquid) rock. Imagine trying to swim through wet concrete, never mind the heat (which would cook you just by being in the same room with it, never mind touching it). It's dumb that lava is often treated like orange Kool-Aid that hurts you on contact.

[factotum]

"If you're in a situation that would kill a person flat dead, you're dead no matter how many hit points you have. Stop whining."). This naturally was the counter to the "I can swim in a river of lava for a few rounds lololololololol" arguments that even then were being trotted out.


This goes back to "rocks fall, everybody dies"--if the GM wills it, it doesn't matter how many hit points the player has; they die! That is still the situation now, and I'm sure any sensible GM would tell a fighter with 200 hit points who just fell into lava "Sorry, dude/dudette, you're dead, best hope the cleric brought a diamond along and can somehow retrieve your cooked corpse".

As for what I said earlier, I stand by it--even in a situation with easy resurrection it hurts when a character you've invested a lot of effort into dies due to nothing more than a bad run on the dice, and the loss of experience isn't to be sneezed at because it then puts them behind the rest of the party and potentially makes it even more likely they'll die in the next encounter--it becomes a vicious circle of death, become weaker, die even easier.

[Liliet]

The magical explosion would be Girard's Gate going boom, which they survived Indy-style.

Problem with the camel's back thing in this case is that everything still falls under DnD.. so if you have a problem with their system, fine. I don't see the point of slamming the comic for operating under it, though.

Indy survived a nuclear explosion in a FRIDGE. They survived a much smaller-scale explosion in a goddamn STONE COFFIN. I'm not sure about whether such feat would work in real life or not, but I'm willing to believe it would.

I don't see a problem with the system, I see a problem with OotS's interpretation of it. In my game you wouldn't need to roll for attack and damage to determine whether you killed a helpless person you ran your sword through. You'd probably need a Strength check to see if you succeeded with piercing them, and a small check to see how far below zero they are and if there is still hope to heal them before they die, or whatever check coup de grace calls for (I'm not an expert), but so long as they are not fighting, not moving and don't have any protection, it's coup de grace whether an attacker said it explicitly or not.

Shielding someone with your own body so if they die, you die too, is a powerful dramatic tool. It can fail because an attacker finds a way around you, because you are pulled or pushed away, or because an attacker doesn't really care about you that much.

It should not fail because you are so goddamn tough and haven't been harmed in the battle yet. This is absolutely illogical.

[dancrilis]

Sure it should.
A. The sword does an amount of damage - Tarquin would have an idea of how much.
B. Bards have hit points - Tarquin would have an idea of how much.

If he is confident in his estimations and his estimation for A is lower than his estimation for B - than all good.
These are the laws of the universe he lives in.

[Dwy]

We could pretend Tarquin has advanced knowledge of the human anathomy, and by applying this skill masterfully pierced Elan's body without hitting major arteries, bowels or organs. Possibly between the ribs, through the lower part of his right lung (although the art doesn't really support that theory).

Mind, being pierced doesn't mean you'll die immediately irl either, you're alive until you've bled out, your blood pressure drops and your organs start failing due to lack of oxygen etc. Elan could realisticly be alive, but dying. Assuming he is, removing the sword, then force-feeding him potions until he stabilized might be a way for Tarquin to do what he just did.

[factotum]

We could pretend Tarquin has advanced knowledge of the human anathomy, and by applying this skill masterfully pierced Elan's body without hitting major arteries, bowels or organs.

Or we could just pretend they're D&D characters and know all about hit points and the fact they won't suffer any lasting problems until their hit points drop below 0. See Belkar versus Crystal for a perfect example.

[Havokca]

Not super relevant, but I would absolutely not allow a character to swim through lava for any distance or length of time, lava is melted (liquid) rock. Imagine trying to swim through wet concrete, never mind the heat (which would cook you just by being in the same room with it, never mind touching it). It's dumb that lava is often treated like orange Kool-Aid that hurts you on contact.

It's all relative; I would think that a person who can somehow survive a few direct hits to the face with burning meteors from a meteor swarm spell would also somehow be able to survive a very short time in lava. In terms of things that would "kill a normal person pretty much instantly", I'd say they're both on par.

[Chronos]

Yes, high-level characters in D&D really can survive brutal punishment, that really hits them and really does brutal damage, and keep on fighting. This is realistic, because it's also the way our world works. You may object that most people in our world would be killed by getting impaled by a greatsword, and that's true. Most people in our would would be killed by getting impaled because most people are low level. But when you look at the real badasses in our world, you find that, yes, they really can take ludicrous amounts of punishment. Like, taking a sniper's rifle bullet directly in the face and surviving. That really happens.

[Trillium]

Yes, high-level characters in D&D really can survive brutal punishment, that really hits them and really does brutal damage, and keep on fighting. This is realistic, because it's also the way our world works. You may object that most people in our world would be killed by getting impaled by a greatsword, and that's true. Most people in our would would be killed by getting impaled because most people are low level. But when you look at the real badasses in our world, you find that, yes, they really can take ludicrous amounts of punishment. Like, taking a sniper's rifle bullet directly in the face and surviving. That really happens.

Pretty much this.
There was argument about capped falling damage, which allows high-level fighters to fall from ESB with no big harm. Remember Jackie Chan, who jamped from a bunch of high building and survived. And he still is an actor, not an epic warrior. I wonder, what damage would Bruce Lee take from jumping from a ten-storey building?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Like, taking a sniper's rifle bullet directly in the face and surviving. That really happens.

Indeed it does. Legend says that he killed the guy that did it before being taken back to base to get patched up. Same guy also survived carpet bombings designed to kill him. And refused to use anything other than iron sights for sniping, since telescopic sights gave your position away. Simo Häyhä (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simo_H%C3%A4yh%C3%A4), in short, is probably the highest level human that has ever been.

GW

[King of Nowhere]

It's all relative; I would think that a person who can somehow survive a few direct hits to the face with burning meteors from a meteor swarm spell would also somehow be able to survive a very short time in lava. In terms of things that would "kill a normal person pretty much instantly", I'd say they're both on par.

the point here is that lava is not water. you cannot swim in it, because a) it's too viscous, you'd get "glued" to it, and b) it's much denser than water, you would float on the surface.
That said, I have no problems thinking that a high level pc can survive a brief immersion in lava. I already explained a couple pages ago my take on hp (short form: regular people are hit, collapse, and die in a few minutes. adventurers are hit, they keep fighting for a few minutes by sheer force of will, then they would die if they were not magically healed).


about simo hayha: that bullet through the head did not hit his brain. it shattered his mandible and cheeckbone, but did not damage anything vital. true, most people would have just collapsed with the shock. which is consistent with my take on hp.

About falling: surviving a fall from any height is not impossible if you have some cushioning. during second world war many pilots were for one roason or the other tossed out of their planes without parachute, and some of them survived. tree branches, or snow, or thick brushes, cushioned the fall. a notable example is a soviet aviator who lost consciousness before he could open the parachute: he landed on a snowy ridge whose slope gradually diminished over time, so he was decelerated slowly. as far as I know, he's the only person to survive a freefall without even a broken bone.

[Nimin]

D&D is a game involving the supernatural, and OOTS is a webcomic involving supernatural PCs.
Correction: it's a webcomic involving a fantasy world with supernatural elements.

Haley can dodge something dozens of feet wide that hits her squarely in the face;
When did that happen?

Elan can make such dreadful puns that they deal physical damage;
Nope. Elan can make puns strong enough to unsettle/boost his own confidence, resulting in heightening his martial prowess. The puns don't deal any sort of damage.

Durkon can casually ignore Conservation of Energy by asking very nicely;
When did tha happen?


Belkar can slice through half an army with two daggers;
How is that supernatural?
Aragorn defeated six Ringwraiths all by himself but that didn't make him "magical" either.


If you want an explanation, all classes become magical after a certain level, and the magic expresses itself differently depending on class (so Epic characters can Balance on clouds, steal people's clothes whilst they're wearing them, etc.) . Fighters' innate magic holds their bodies together and allows their internal organs to continue functioning to the bitter end.
Alright... no. :smallconfused: None of this is ever stated in D&D, saying that they all "become" magical at some point or the other may work as some really lax explanation of this, but it's entirely your own.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

When did that happen?

Every time she received no damage from area attacks, even if she was in the middle of the area and everything around her got hit (e.g. acid attack at the pyramid).


When did tha happen?

Presumably every time he casts a spell, since all spells are violations of energy conservation. That said, I would also go with "can violate the law of matter conservation" since he can request Thor to double his size.


How is that supernatural?
Aragorn defeated six Ringwraiths all by himself but that didn't make him "magical" either.

Presumably, 6 <> 600. Yes, those six were scarier that goblins, but the problem is the sheer number of enemies Belkar plowed through with just two fairly short pieces of sharp metal.

(Note that I have no problem with any of the above, I'm just giving you examples of what I believe the original poster was complaining about)

Grey Wolf

[Nimin]

Every time she received no damage from area attacks, even if she was in the middle of the area and everything around her got hit (e.g. acid attack at the pyramid).
We didn't see that scene, so we cannot know how she dodged it. Saying "dodge something dozens of feet wide that hits her squarely in the face" doesn't apply to this case (or either one I could think of).

Presumably every time he casts a spell, since all spells are violations of energy conservation. That said, I would also go with "can violate the law of matter conservation" since he can request Thor to double his size.
He's still limited to the laws and restrictions of his supernatural/divine power, he can't "ask for things nicely and get them".

Presumably, 6 <> 600. Yes, those six were scarier that goblins, but the problem is the sheer number of enemies Belkar plowed through with just two fairly short pieces of sharp metal.
If we assume a nimble, fast and deadly-precise halfling I don't see it all that unnatural for him to have killed that few dozen inexperienced hobgoblins he defeated (much less than 600 anyway). If you want a feasible example about how that could have happened just look at Kill Bill's - The Bride vs. 88 thugs

[Spoomeister]

I think part of what original poster is point out, for me, sounds like my personal reaction to a completely different story and setting. I call it Farscape Fatigue. When death is constantly imminent, or happens but frequently isn't permanent if the character is 'important' enough, after a while it's hard to take peril for the characters seriously. You can't constantly raise the stakes without suspension of disbelief suffering eventually. Some folks have a higher tolerance (due to accepting the fantasy setting, or just being a more easygoing and less nitpicky person :smallbiggrin:).

I'm not at that point with the OOTS yet but I am also tired of Tarquin specifically and the Tarquin storyline in general, and miss me some Xykon... so I'm conflating a bit of my own issues between "they dropped a building on the OOTS, how will they get out of this" with "they dropped a building on Tarquin and he got out of it again untouched, sheesh this is getting old".

[Peelee]

We didn't see that scene, so we cannot know how she dodged it. Saying "dodge something dozens of feet wide that hits her squarely in the face" doesn't apply to this case (or either one I could think of). 848, panel 3. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0848.html)


He's still limited to the laws and restrictions of his supernatural/divine power, he can't "ask for things nicely and get them". No one ever said he could do anything he wanted simply by asking; just an example of one of the most fundamental laws of the universe being casually broken. Also, to more directly rebut your argument, Miracle exists (and if you trade the cleric for a wizard, Wish).


If we assume a nimble, fast and deadly-precise halfling I don't see it all that unnatural for him to have killed that few dozen inexperienced hobgoblins he defeated (much less than 600 anyway). If you want a feasible example about how that could have happened just look at Kill Bill's - The Bride vs. 88 thugs
Haven't seen Kill Bill, but I doubt it's an accurate representation of how something like that could go down. Though I admit I am by no means qualified to speak on the subject.

[Nimin]

848, panel 3. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0848.html)
Heh, maybe the people covered her from the splash? There's plenty of ways to explain the whole "evasion" effect without having to resort to supernatural mysterious magicry.


No one ever said he could do anything he wanted simply by asking; just an example of one of the most fundamental laws of the universe being casually broken. Also, to more directly rebut your argument, Miracle exists (and if you trade the cleric for a wizard, Wish).
Broken under strict rules and regulations, yes, even Wish. That doesn't rebut anything.


Haven't seen Kill Bill, but I doubt it's an accurate representation of how something like that could go down. Though I admit I am by no means qualified to speak on the subject.
You did it nonetheless. I suggest you do watch the movie (which is a pretty good one anyway) before expressing doubts.

[Peelee]

Heh, maybe the people covered her from the splash? There's plenty of ways to explain the whole "evasion" effect without having to resort to supernatural mysterious magicry.
I showed you a strip in which the room was filled with acid, Haley dodged while literally doing nothing, and you still argue? This is a "lead a horse to water" scenario. You wish to be wilfully blind, that's no skin off my back.


Broken under strict rules and regulations, yes, even Wish. That doesn't rebut anything.
Then for the sake of argument, let's ignore Miracle and Wish. How do you respond to the fact that you contested a point nobody made?



You did it nonetheless. I suggest you do watch the movie (which is a pretty good one anyway) before expressing doubts.
I did indeed. I also am not qualified to speak on police procedures, but I believe I could claim that the Blues Brothers does not accurately portray a high-speed police chase, and have fairly good certainty of being correct.

Also, dude, there's a reason I haven't seen it. Don't try to convince me. Won't happen.

[Nimin]

I showed you a strip in which the room was filled with acid
No, what you showed me was the graphical effect of Vitriolic Sphere exploding, not the room being literally flooded with acid.
Had this been the case the Order would have been swept away under massive tides of acid (a-la O-chul) instead of leaving just some very little puddles on the ground.
It's entirely possible that Haley got saved/evasion'ed by having the people around her protecting from the splash, without any need for supernatural magic.


Then for the sake of argument, let's ignore Miracle and Wish. How do you respond to the fact that you contested a point nobody made?
By the fact that I didn't. JBiddles tried to catch-all address all sort of things the Oots did under the label of "magic" and cited Durkon (along many other not so spot on examples) at that, but the fact that Durkon can supernaturally break the laws of reality doesn't mean that anyone else has to.


I did indeed. I also am not qualified to speak on police procedures, but I believe I could claim that the Blues Brothers does not accurately portray a high-speed police chase, and have fairly good certainty of being correct.

Also, dude, there's a reason I haven't seen it. Don't try to convince me. Won't happen.
So long as you don't comment things you haven't seen, sure. It's your loss anyway. :smalltongue:

[jere7my]

So long as you don't comment things you haven't seen, sure. It's your loss anyway. :smalltongue:

I've seen Kill Bill, and while I think it's great there's very little that the Bride does that's plausible. It basically runs on wuxia logic.

[The Giant]

If I showed Roy getting stabbed through the chest once and dying, I would be facing an even longer thread of people complaining that I wasn't giving Roy the proper durability that was appropriate to a high-level fighter and that it therefore broke their suspension of disbelief because they feel like I'm not following the D&D rules closely enough and there's no rhyme or reason to anything that happens and they can't enjoy the comic anymore.

In other words, someone's delicate suspension of disbelief is going to be broken even if I post a comic of everyone sitting calmly and drinking weak tea. Everyone just wants me to cater to the things that bug them, personally, and ignore the people with the exact opposite set of pet peeves. My honest suggestion at this point is for everyone to toughen up their respective suspensions of disbelief and realize that this is a crazy fantasy comedy and that unbelievable stuff will happen, like, a lot.

[zimmerwald1915]

In other words, someone's delicate suspension of disbelief is going to be broken even if I post a comic of everyone sitting calmly and drinking weak tea.
Who claimed this scene (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0737.html) was unbelievable? :smallconfused:

[Avi235&258]

Nale (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0810.html) did, of course.

[dancrilis]

Who claimed this scene (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0737.html) was unbelievable? :smallconfused:



We first saw Durkon is so lawful he leaves Roy in the prioson of a Lawful Evil place but he is not Lawful enough to refrain from cheating with ugly-tasting tea(?). ;)


No, he's being Lawful. It's just not RIGHT for a Dwarven Cleric to be at a religious discussion drinking something ... non-alcoholic.

These two did.

[Torrasque]

Well done dancrilis :D

[Porthos]

My honest suggestion at this point is for everyone to toughen up their respective suspensions of disbelief and realize that this is a crazy fantasy comedy and that unbelievable stuff will happen, like, a lot.

*checks latest comic*

You don't say. :smalltongue: :smalltongue: :smalltongue:

Well played, Giant. Well played. :smallamused:

======

ETA to not Double Post:

Anyway, the reason why I dropped by this thread today is to wonder just how much punishment the characters can take (and dish out) before it suspends disbelief.

I fear we might find out soon. :smallamused:

[JBiddles]

We didn't see that scene, so we cannot know how she dodged it. Saying "dodge something dozens of feet wide that hits her squarely in the face" doesn't apply to this case (or either one I could think of).

The joke that Evasion lets you do ridiculous things has been made before; for instance, Belkar reacts to Skullsy's Fireball as though hit, then realises that he got Evasion recently and therefore took no damage.



He's still limited to the laws and restrictions of his supernatural/divine power, he can't "ask for things nicely and get them".

Sure. And Roy is limited to the restrictions of his own supernatural power: Durkon can hugely increase his size - a far more egregious violation of physics than the flying Empress of Blood - but not to the size of, say, a mountain; Roy can survive impalement a few times, but not, say, survive a supernova next to him.



If we assume a nimble, fast and deadly-precise halfling I don't see it all that unnatural for him to have killed that few dozen inexperienced hobgoblins he defeated (much less than 600 anyway). If you want a feasible example about how that could have happened just look at Kill Bill's - The Bride vs. 88 thugs

Belkar, a halfling, takes down hundreds (even very conservatively, that's a lot more than a "few dozen" hobgoblins) of human-size and -strength creatures with two blunt bits of metal ("I think he blunts his daggers, just so that they hurt more..."). If you look closely at the art, in some cases, he actually slices directly through the hobgoblins' body parts - in the second panel of #439, for instance, he cuts straight through a hobgoblin's leg in one small swing. This is blatantly impossible - unless you happen to be a high-level DnD character, in which case, in Vaarsuvius' words, "the laws of [physics are] loose guidelines at best".

[Reddish Mage]

*checks latest comic*

You don't say. :smalltongue: :smalltongue: :smalltongue:

Well played, Giant. Well played. :smallamused:

Me hopes some of that tea complaining was tongue and cheek :small tongue: I question those that have Suspension of Disbelief complaints in a 4th-wall breaking parody of D&D.

Many people have very specific ideas of what game concepts in D&D are meant to represent. Lodoss War, for example, depicts the characters as just getting nicks to represent hit point damage. However, D&D has never meant to be that clear about those things. Other sources choose to depict high level characters as simply an extraordinarily hard bunch. Now if Roy was to suddenly pull out a Major Image spell he just happened to pick up from his father(despite showing no wizard levels to date)…that's where you would have reason to complain. Despite it being prima facie a relatively reasonable thing to expect a child of a wizard to pick up a spell or two, its not the sort of thing that happens in D&D.

[Emanick]

The joke that Evasion lets you do ridiculous things has been made before; for instance, Belkar reacts to Skullsy's Fireball as though hit, then realises that he got Evasion recently and therefore took no damage.




Sure. And Roy is limited to the restrictions of his own supernatural power: Durkon can hugely increase his size - a far more egregious violation of physics than the flying Empress of Blood - but not to the size of, say, a mountain; Roy can survive impalement a few times, but not, say, survive a supernova next to him.




Belkar, a halfling, takes down hundreds (even very conservatively, that's a lot more than a "few dozen" hobgoblins) of human-size and -strength creatures with two blunt bits of metal ("I think he blunts his daggers, just so that they hurt more..."). If you look closely at the art, in some cases, he actually slices directly through the hobgoblins' body parts - in the second panel of #439, for instance, he cuts straight through a hobgoblin's leg in one small swing. This is blatantly impossible - unless you happen to be a high-level DnD character, in which case, in Vaarsuvius' words, "the laws of [physics are] loose guidelines at best".

With enough force behind it, there's no reason why a magically strengthened bit of metal shouldn't be able to cut through several inches of flesh and bone alike in one swing. I think this is more a case of virtually nobody in real life actually being this strong or having such powerful weapons, not a case of people doing things that literally violate the laws of physics.

I do agree with you on the Evasion, but then again, that's more of a running joke than anything else. A good example of the sort of "rules joke" that will never get old as long as Rich plays it right.

[Spoomeister]

My honest suggestion at this point is for everyone to toughen up their respective suspensions of disbelief and realize that this is a crazy fantasy comedy and that unbelievable stuff will happen, like, a lot.

So, as they say in Mystery Science Theater 3000, "You should say to yourself, 'It's just a show, I should really just relax'"?

How are we going to get to 30-page threads after each installment, looking for consistent tracking of levels, hit points and estimated spellcaster abilities across 900+ comics, if we take THAT attitude? I mean really. :smallamused: :smallwink:

[Nimin]

The joke that Evasion lets you do ridiculous things has been made before; for instance, Belkar reacts to Skullsy's Fireball as though hit, then realises that he got Evasion recently and therefore took no damage.
Because that was a joke, making it an exception, not the rule.


Sure. And Roy is limited to the restrictions of his own supernatural power: Durkon can hugely increase his size - a far more egregious violation of physics than the flying Empress of Blood - but not to the size of, say, a mountain; Roy can survive impalement a few times, but not, say, survive a supernova next to him.
Roy has no supernatural powers.
Nothing in the D&D rulebook states that warriors achieve that through simple leveling and if you wish to insist on repeating this you'd better start quoting facts or citing proofs.


Belkar, a halfling, takes down hundreds (even very conservatively, that's a lot more than a "few dozen" hobgoblins) of human-size and -strength creatures with two blunt bits of metal ("I think he blunts his daggers, just so that they hurt more..."). If you look closely at the art, in some cases, he actually slices directly through the hobgoblins' body parts - in the second panel of #439, for instance, he cuts straight through a hobgoblin's leg in one small swing. This is blatantly impossible - unless you happen to be a high-level DnD character, in which case, in Vaarsuvius' words, "the laws of [physics are] loose guidelines at best".
I don't remember ever seeing him atop hundreds of corpses. How did you get that number?

[King of Nowhere]

In other words, someone's delicate suspension of disbelief is going to be broken even if I post a comic of everyone sitting calmly and drinking weak tea.

That reminds me of the "it don't matter what miko does, there will always be people thinking she should fall for that. I could draw a strip of miko standing perfectly still for 12 panels, and someone would say she should fall for her inaction".

Damn nerd gamers. we are a terribly nitpicky bunch to satisfy.

[Porthos]

I don't remember ever seeing him atop hundreds of corpses. How did you get that number?

It's only one of THE most Iconic shots of Belkar ever. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0439.html) :smalltongue:

[Nimin]

It's only one of THE most Iconic shots of Belkar ever. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0439.html) :smalltongue:
I still don't see the hundreds.
Maybe a few dozens, as I've said.

[Porthos]

I still don't see the hundreds.
Maybe a few dozens, as I've said.

Who can really tell? Besides, at that point does it really matter if it is 'only' one hundred* or hundreds?

* gauging conservatively, there has to be at least 100 there if it is a pyramid of corpses.

Besides, look at it this way. Not a few strips earlier, enough corpses were made to make a ramp for an undead monstroisty on a skeletal horse to ride up.

Sooner or later, I think it's time to re-adjust standards, go with the flow, and only complain at the truly illogical things. :smallamused:

[The Giant]

Roy has no supernatural powers.
Nothing in the D&D rulebook states that warriors achieve that through simple leveling and if you wish to insist on repeating this you'd better start quoting facts or citing proofs.

Roy does not have magical powers. Roy only doesn't have supernatural powers because for the world he lives in, his level of durability is considered entirely natural. If you transported Roy to our world, he would be considered superhumanly durable, on the order of a low-power superhero. Like Captain America, not Superman.

Nonmagical high-level D&D characters can do the backstroke in lava, hit the moon with an arrow, stand right in front of you without being seen, spontaneously cut off people's heads with their bare hands, and live forever. If you don't like it, your argument is with high-level D&D, not me.

[Porthos]

If you transported Roy to our world, he would be considered superhumanly durable, on the order of a low-power superhero. Like Captain America, not Superman.

Oooh, new StickTale?

*remembers the lawyers*

OK, maybe not. Still, I'd love to see Roy in Captain America get up. It just seems... so right. :smallsmile:

[The Troubadour]

Also, Achilles was invulnerable to all damage except at his heel. He was dipped into the river Styx by his mother when he was a babe, making him invulnerable. Except that his mother held him by his ankle while dipping him, so his heel was never touched by the water.

Interestingly enough, that was a later addition to the myth. If you go just by the Illiad, there's no such mention of Achilles being invulnerable; in fact, his armour and shield are noted to be top-notch, particularly after his mother gives him a set of equipment forged by Hephaestus himself.


So in D&D terms, Achilles' level may not have been very high. You don't need very high combat stats when you can just walk up to your enemies and straight up murder them.

Considering he wrestled and beat to submission a river god, yes, it was, and hes, he did. :-)

[Nimin]

Roy does not have magical powers. Roy only doesn't have supernatural powers because for the world he lives in, his level of durability is considered entirely natural. If you transported Roy to our world, he would be considered superhumanly durable, on the order of a low-power superhero. Like Captain America, not Superman.

Or something more along the line of Jack Slater, of Last Action Hero: Boss in his world, normal tough guy in ours.


Nonmagical high-level D&D characters can do the backstroke in lava, hit the moon with an arrow, stand right in front of you without being seen, spontaneously cut off people's heads with their bare hands, and live forever. If you don't like it, your argument is with high-level D&D, not me.

When did I ever say I didn't like this, or had any argument against the comic or you? :smallconfused:
I was refuting Jbiddles' notion that Roy was a supernatural being: he's not, he's just a guy whose world's laws of physics allow to take "much more punishment" before dying.

[glissle]

We could pretend Tarquin has advanced knowledge of the human anathomy, and by applying this skill masterfully pierced Elan's body without hitting major arteries, bowels or organs. Possibly between the ribs, through the lower part of his right lung (although the art doesn't really support that theory).

Mind, being pierced doesn't mean you'll die immediately irl either, you're alive until you've bled out, your blood pressure drops and your organs start failing due to lack of oxygen etc. Elan could realisticly be alive, but dying. Assuming he is, removing the sword, then force-feeding him potions until he stabilized might be a way for Tarquin to do what he just did.
Hmm, Tarquin as Bill the Butcher from Gangs of New York: "you can learn a lot butchering meat" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eSIDdiJn284). Not apparent in that scene is that Bill is pretty Lawful Evil.

[RadagastTheBrow]

Roy can survive impalement a few times, but not, say, survive a supernova next to him.


Never play Final Fantasy VII? :smalltongue:

[dps]

There was a old thread that had a link to an article that argued that in the real world, no human being who's ever lived has ever reached a higher level than 6. Now, that article was somewhat controversial, but it's pretty clear to me that it was basically correct--the real world is a low-level, magic free world. A high-level fighter, if one existed in our world, would be able to tear tanks apart with his bare hands. Given that and the premises of DnD, high-level characters, especially fighters, being able to take a sword through the chest and live is easily believable within the context of the rules.

[Fish]

When did I ever say I didn't like this, or had any argument against the comic or you? :smallconfused:
I was refuting Jbiddles' notion that Roy was a supernatural being...
The Giant's objection, I reckon, is to the word "supernatural."

In D&D, "supernatural" is a class or subdivision of a type of magical or extra-normal power. Roy's high HP is, by that definition, not supernatural.

However, those same HP allow him to do things and survive things which, in our world, no human can do. Thus to us, Roy appears supernatural by our standards, even though his abilities are not listed with (Su) after them.

[zimmerwald1915]

There was a old thread that had a link to an article that argued that in the real world, no human being who's ever lived has ever reached a higher level than 6. Now, that article was somewhat controversial, but it's pretty clear to me that it was basically correct--the real world is a low-level, magic free world. A high-level fighter, if one existed in our world, would be able to tear tanks apart with his bare hands. Given that and the premises of DnD, high-level characters, especially fighters, being able to take a sword through the chest and live is easily believable within the context of the rules.
Have a link (http://thealexandrian.net/wordpress/587/roleplaying-games/dd-calibrating-your-expectations-2) for the next time you want to cite The Alexandrian.

[Nimin]

The Giant's objection, I reckon, is to the word "supernatural."

In D&D, "supernatural" is a class or subdivision of a type of magical or extra-normal power. Roy's high HP is, by that definition, not supernatural.

However, those same HP allow him to do things and survive things which, in our world, no human can do. Thus to us, Roy appears supernatural by our standards, even though his abilities are not listed with (Su) after them.

Yes, that's the same thing I was saying to Jdibbles.

[Grey Watcher]

... and realize that this is a crazy fantasy comedy and that unbelievable stuff will happen, like, a lot.

My current high bar for crazy, that-should-not-be-possible hijinks is Haley stealing from the cast-page version of herself (which I love and think is hilarious, by the way). Next to that, Roy surviving getting gored by a triceratops seems quaintly pedestrian. :smallbiggrin:

[Crusher]

This is a strawman. He didn't say that in D&D PCs can't die. He said that it is nice that it takes more than a couple of unlucky rolls to die. Which is true: on one end of the spectrum, there is D&D where warriors need to be hit multiple times with magical flaming meteorites to kill them. On the other end of the spectrum, paranoia starts you off with five clones, since everything from breathing on up is grounds for the computer to kill you.

Now, you can disagree what is more fun in each system (probably what you prefer correlates strongly with your risk aversion score), but please address the argument, not the strawman.

Grey Wolf

Paranoia was magnificent. Absolutely brilliant writers. The scenarios were as much fun to read as they were to GM.


These two did.

How on earth did you do that so fast?

[Ghost Nappa]

I still don't see the hundreds.
Maybe a few dozens, as I've said.

You can't see the base or width of the pile of corpses. It's implied it was a decent slaughter of Hobgoblins. By the necessary math of murderous rampages, that would be at least 58.54 corpses. That is a low estimate.

[Nimin]

You can't see the base or width of the pile of corpses. It's implied it was a decent slaughter of Hobgoblins. By the necessary math of murderous rampages, that would be at least 58.54 corpses. That is a low estimate.

So long as they don't pretend 600 or more corpses, I'm all good.

[Zrak]

From what I've read, using the River Styx concentrated all his vulnerability into his mortal point (in his case the heel). So getting hit anywhere else does no damage, but a hit right at the right point does 10 or 20 times the damage to compensate.

That doesn't really make the idea less silly, though. I think my general point was that Achilles, at least the version who dies from one arrow to the heel, is not a great example of how D&D power levels are screwy, or particularly applicable to a "who could survive that" discussion. Like others have said, the idea of him being invulnerable except for his heel/ankle isn't even universal. I was more just having fun with the idea of using Achilles, specifically, as a standard for fantasy hero toughness, and more generally with the potential pitfalls of the whole project of declaring what "level" characters from mythology would be.

[ryguy90]

The moment I saw the title of this thread I just keep thinking about the Monty Python Black Knight. Tis but a scratch.

[Grey Watcher]

Never play Final Fantasy VII? :smalltongue:

Heck, that goes as far back as Final Fantasy I, where a high level Knight can take a spell called "NUKE" to the face and turn around and immediately turn around and smack the caster upside the head half a dozen times in a row with a sword.

[Wardog]

High-level D&D characters have loads of hit points not because of superhuman durability, but because they have become very good at avoiding being badly hurt. They don't get a massive triceratops horn through the stomach and keep fighting. Only the blow that brings them down is so severe. Before that, they are mostly getting nicks and bruises.

That's the "fluff" explanation.

In terms of crunch, D&D is indistinguishable from a system where hitpoints really do represent the ability to get stabbed through the chest multiple times and keep going.

And OOTS has long shown its willingness to treat the rules as litterally as possible, even when it would make more "sense" to treat them as an abstraction.

I'm also pretty sure I've read old legends that featured heros dueling for hours despite taking multiple major wounds in the process.

[BroomGuys]

Heck, that goes as far back as Final Fantasy I, where a high level Knight can take a spell called "NUKE" to the face and turn around and immediately turn around and smack the caster upside the head half a dozen times in a row with a sword.

And then the next fighter, because he was assigned to attack the same caster, would swing his sword at the thin air where that caster used to be, prompting the simple message "ineffective."

[orrion]

And then the next fighter, because he was assigned to attack the same caster, would swing his sword at the thin air where that caster used to be, prompting the simple message "ineffective."

Even spells would do that.

Thankfully fixed in the GBA version!

[Bulldog Psion]

An alternate title for this thread would be "Dang, they're not dead yet? Why not???" :smallbiggrin:

[factotum]

And then the next fighter, because he was assigned to attack the same caster, would swing his sword at the thin air where that caster used to be, prompting the simple message "ineffective."

You'd prefer the system in Wizardry 7, where the fighter would instead pick a random character to attack--who somehow *always* seemed to be the tough guy you'd put to sleep earlier in the round in order to keep him out of the fight for a while?

[Chainsaw Hobbit]

If I showed Roy getting stabbed through the chest once and dying, I would be facing an even longer thread of people complaining that I wasn't giving Roy the proper durability that was appropriate to a high-level fighter and that it therefore broke their suspension of disbelief because they feel like I'm not following the D&D rules closely enough and there's no rhyme or reason to anything that happens and they can't enjoy the comic anymore.

In other words, someone's delicate suspension of disbelief is going to be broken even if I post a comic of everyone sitting calmly and drinking weak tea. Everyone just wants me to cater to the things that bug them, personally, and ignore the people with the exact opposite set of pet peeves. My honest suggestion at this point is for everyone to toughen up their respective suspensions of disbelief and realize that this is a crazy fantasy comedy and that unbelievable stuff will happen, like, a lot.

I meant no offense, and I can still enjoy the comic. I was just pointing out how I would have done something differently.

[Kalmageddon]

I don't know whether it's about suspension of disbelief or what, but I found out this comic that I don't care anymore. Roy getting pierced is not dramatic for me because there's Elan on top of him who is supposed to survive this.

Of course, when I go meta and calculate the odds, I can accept that there's something to worry about, but when I go meta I immediately see narrative tendencies that say "NO SORRY ROY'S NOT DYING TODAY".

I worry about Durkon, even though, narratively speaking, his chances to die here are much lower than Roy's. But I can't worry about Roy. It's just one unrealistic detail too much.

Yeah, this.
Plus the fact that I'm finding that making Durkon a vampire basically robbed him of what little characterization he did have outside of "dwarf who happens to be a cleric".

[TheWatcher]

I dunno. If Roy weren't able to take at least 4 gore attacks from a Triceratops, I would be wondering why his con modifier is so low. We know he's taken 3 or so big injuries since "I also haf potions": One Triceratops gore, One Allosaurus bite, and one Tarquin shish-kebab. There are a handful of nickel and dime injuries there too, but certainly not enough to drop a high level fighter.

Fighters don't excel at much, but they do excel at soaking HP damage. Everyone else in the PC party has superhuman powers. One of the few that D&D leaves to Roy is "gobs of HP". Let's not begrudge the guy a little bit of insane toughness.

^^^
This. Come on. He can swim in lava. Or fall off the empire state building. Or get eatten by a dragon and cut his way out.

He's a fighter. Getting slapped around and spitting blood in the enemy's face afterward is kind of his job.

V, if not already there ... is getting to the point where he can cast wish, or meteor swarm. By level 5, a fighter is an inhuman wrecking ball whom can, with a single buff spell from a wizard, dance into an angry mob of 100 peasants and masacure them all with whirlwind attacks. Seriously.

Show me the greatest single melee warrior in live action doing that to 100 angry people~ and I'll show you a Jackie-chan movie.

Or surviving 20d6 every 6 seconds. 70 damage average per round.

Two rounds of exposure is average 140 hitpoints.

Plus 10d6 damage for 1d3 rounds afterwards. (15 + 20 = 35 damage average~)

So.. average 2 rounds?

205 damage.

Level 20 fighter -- especially with even a low level piece of fire resistance, reduction or immunity -- could swim in lava. I have seen level 20 fighters with upwards of 400 hitpoints - it's not as if they don't have enough base attack bonus to forgo some strength and still hit enemies.

Level 20 Fighter, with an 24 Constitution has an -average- of 250 Hitpoints.

Average. With no defense, and no magical bonuses, while bare naked.

He can swim in lava and live. And then whirlwind attack-punch you and your best 7 friends in the face afterwards.

Roy ain't level 20 ... but he can easily take a few hits from his own greatsword, a few dino's, and a bunch of mooks doing 1d8 damage with crossbows. I mean.. he had crossbow bolts.. in his head. In his head. lol.

He's super human.

[luchifer]

In Dungeon and Dragons it has been established several times that a natural 20 can turn the tide.. For example.. the (balrog?) in the island was way beyond the level of the heroes, yet V could managed to roll very high with a Crushing Despair spell, and it was the same with the first dragon they encounter (Suggestion spell). Very recently, Belkar, being a very good bard/ranger could have died by a single arrow if one of the mooks were lucky to rolled a 20.

Of course if you're epic, its a very different story.

[luchifer]

Show me the greatest single melee warrior in live action doing that to 100 angry people~ and I'll show you a Jackie-chan movie.



Does an (one can dream) upcoming live action Berserk movie count?

[Knaight]

I still don't see the hundreds.
Maybe a few dozens, as I've said.

There are 58 visible ones by my count. If the pyramid averages 4 deep, it's in the hundreds.

[OPM]

Which raises an interesting question...

Do OOTS characters actually have any internal organs :smallconfused: ?

Evisceratus did, if you remember Belkar's (& Mr. Scruffy's) fights in the arena.