The ultimate revenge on Tarquin

[Cirin]

I had a thought tonight.

Tarquin is doing all this hoping to spur Elan to be a great leader, and wanting him to come back seeking revenge. . .to play into Tarquin's belief that OotS is actually the epic tale of an evil warlord fighting his heroic rebellious son (instead of a lich and goblin high priest fighting a scrappy band of adventurers).

What if, as revenge, you completely stripped "warlord" from Tarquin? Let him die a nobody, remembered by none, but let him live long enough to see that he will be forgotten by history and the Bards.

Quietly, building up allies and resources, you assassinate the members of Team Tarquin individually to strip him of his ability to manipulate politics and defend himself. The fact they only get together when doing a specific task means they can be ambushed separately far more easily.

Jacinda might be hard to hit and a poison user, but enough TNT kegs to destroy wherever she's sleeping (like was done with the inn in the woods) would take care of her without having to get into poison range and making sure she's flat-footed so she can't Evasion/Improved Evasion the blast.

Miron can be dogpiled if caught alone, and if V catches him by surprise with a dimensional anchor so he can't flee and Roy gets in close with his anti-caster feat he can be cut down quickly.

Laurin can be lured into a trap easily by using her daughter as bait. Once lured out of hiding, it's easy enough to take her down in a similar way to Miron.

As unstable as politics are there, finding someone to take on the Empress of Blood shouldn't be hard, and without Tarquin's team to keep things influenced, she can be taken down and replaced by somebody else. . .who has been manipulated to see Tarquin as an enemy.

Now that he's politically destroyed and without enemies, you make sure he's dead, but you make sure Tarquin sees a copy of the history books being drafted, completely omitting him, let him know that history will never remember him. No epic tales will be told, no heroic ballads sung in which he's mentioned. He will have lost all his power, all his influence, and his life. . .and he will be completely forgotten the round after he dies.

. . .and THAT's how you truly defeat him.

[dancrilis]

That has been considered already.
Most people would not have anywhere near the ability to pull it off.
His soldiers (and assorted others) already know about him so you would need to wipe them all out.
It is completely meaningless as he already had his good life.

[Clistenes]

Just let somebody cast Owl's Wisdom, Fox's Cunning an Eagle's Splendor on the Blood Empress, explain her what Tarquin is doing and let her munch and swallow Tarquin the next time he goes check on her.

If you are into it, you can summon his ghost later and let him watch how nobody gives a f**k he died and he's remembered just as that dude who served the Empress until she got pissed with him and ate him.

[Koo Rehtorb]

I think Tarquin would think the fact that you're wasting so much effort on this would be hilarious and would be a vindication of just how important you considered him.


Just let somebody cast Owl's Wisdom, Fox's Cunning an Eagle's Splendor on the Blood Empress, explain her what Tarquin is doing and let her munch and swallow Tarquin the next time he goes check on her.

If you are into it, you can summon his ghost later and let him watch how nobody gives a f**k he died and he's remembered just as that dude who served the Empress until she got pissed with him and ate him.

I'm fairly certain that any lone member of Team Tarquin could solo her so...

[JessmanCA]

Or Elan could kill him, and resurrect Nale somehow. And then continue living in the shadow of Roy.

Since there is an afterlife in this comic he'll see all of this happen anyway.

[Clistenes]

I'm fairly certain that any lone member of Team Tarquin could solo her so...

I dunno...she's at least Gargantuan, which means she's Old or older, which means she's at least CR 20.

And yes, I know she's overweight, but she's not just fat, she's big too, almost Colossal.

I know she was shown to be a lot smaller and sleeker a few years ago, but that could be an artistic license...or maybe she instantly grew from Huge to Gargantuan size during her 401 birthday.

[RMS Oceanic]

Actually, they're in a position to pull off a pretty nifty revenge right now.

Think about it: They're in the middle of a barren and lifeless desert. Nobody around for miles. The last word anyone heard from General Tarquin was "I'll be right back." Wouldn't it be fitting if they had themselves an epic battle with the Order victorious...but no-one was around to see it?

In this scenario, all Elan has to do is make sure nobody talks about Tarquin once they leave the Western Continent. To the world at large, Tarquin was a general for a fat idiot dragon, who just up and disappeared one day, as is wont to happen in such an unstable environment. Meanwhile he's had his epic defeat, his legendary story, but nobody will ever tell it.

[Composer99]

I dunno...she's at least Gargantuan, which means she's Old or older, which means she's at least CR 20.

And yes, I know she's overweight, but she's not just fat, she's big too, almost Colossal.

I know she was shown to be a lot smaller and sleeker a few years ago, but that could be an artistic license...or maybe she instantly grew from Huge to Gargantuan size during her 401 birthday.

I believe the Empress of Blood's weight gain (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0725.html) has been something of a side-effect of her efforts to become a more powerful dragon by skipping the part where she has to get older, wiser, etc. to get the power.

In short, she may be Gargantuan or even Colossal in size, but she is surely no CR 20 encounter.

[Composer99]

With respect to the topic introduced in the OP, it must be said that taking the time to pick off individual members of Tarquin's old team seems like something the Order does not have the time - or the inclination - to do.

Unless one of the reverses in the ongoing swingy battle involves Miron returning with Jacinda and "shoulderpads guy" in tow, I wouldn't be surprised if we never see the rest of them again once this book is over.

(I also don't see Roy, Elan, Haley, or Vaarsuvius consenting to use Laurin's daughter as bait in a trap - it strikes me as a little too "Nale"-ish for their tastes.)

[infomatic]

The entire anti-Tarquin plot is Nale-ish. I'm surprised he didn't try it, actually.

A fitting end for Tarquin would be to simply be killed, off-panel, by a secondary character like Sabine.

[dancrilis]

Well Nale may be back to enact just take - his return has after all been heavily hinted at (or herringed at).

[NerdyKris]

Just let somebody cast Owl's Wisdom, Fox's Cunning an Eagle's Splendor on the Blood Empress, explain her what Tarquin is doing and let her munch and swallow Tarquin the next time he goes check on her.

If you are into it, you can summon his ghost later and let him watch how nobody gives a f**k he died and he's remembered just as that dude who served the Empress until she got pissed with him and ate him.

The fact that two advisors of completely different nations just walked into her throne room, assassinated a diplomat, and then told her to shut up without any reprisal seems to heavily imply that she's in on the plan, just like the soldiers. The fact that she was involved in stopping Nale's original takeover attempt is also good evidence that she was in on it, otherwise Nale would have just told her the truth before the fight and not had to deal with a dragon.

Tarquin's previous puppets also seemed to be there for the cushy job and in on the plan as well.

[Mike Havran]

Actually, they're in a position to pull off a pretty nifty revenge right now.

Think about it: They're in the middle of a barren and lifeless desert. Nobody around for miles. The last word anyone heard from General Tarquin was "I'll be right back." Wouldn't it be fitting if they had themselves an epic battle with the Order victorious...but no-one was around to see it?

In this scenario, all Elan has to do is make sure nobody talks about Tarquin once they leave the Western Continent. To the world at large, Tarquin was a general for a fat idiot dragon, who just up and disappeared one day, as is wont to happen in such an unstable environment. Meanwhile he's had his epic defeat, his legendary story, but nobody will ever tell it.I think you underestimate the power of imagination of the common people. If Tarquin died in the desert and The Order decided to shut up (for the reason you mentioned) about it, it would be one of the better ways for Tarquin to secure his legacy. Without him and Malack around, the EoB would quickly fall apart, a short civil war would break out and soon, there would be just a handful of small nations squabbling amongst themselves. But what would the people know about Tarquin? They would remember his name, that he was a head general, and that shortly after he had disappeared in the desert, the empire came undone. Over the course of the years, his exact actions, individual heinous deeds etc. would all become hazy and twisted and the very uncertainty of his fate, which so many people here wish for him, would turn him into a legend. And even generations later, during some new military conflict, the refugees on the losing side will whisper tales about General Tarquin; tales of hope that one day, he'll come back from the ever-changing dunes and unite the lands into a single empire once again.

[Silverionmox]

They just need to snuff him. Sabine can take care of ruining his reputation at her leisure afterwards, being a shapeshifter and all.

[BlackDragonKing]

I think you underestimate the power of imagination of the common people. If Tarquin died in the desert and The Order decided to shut up (for the reason you mentioned) about it, it would be one of the better ways for Tarquin to secure his legacy. Without him and Malack around, the EoB would quickly fall apart, a short civil war would break out and soon, there would be just a handful of small nations squabbling amongst themselves. But what would the people know about Tarquin? They would remember his name, that he was a head general, and that shortly after he had disappeared in the desert, the empire came undone. Over the course of the years, his exact actions, individual heinous deeds etc. would all become hazy and twisted and the very uncertainty of his fate, which so many people here wish for him, would turn him into a legend. And even generations later, during some new military conflict, the refugees on the losing side will whisper tales about General Tarquin; tales of hope that one day, he'll come back from the ever-changing dunes and unite the lands into a single empire once again.

I sort of agree with this. I kind of think Elan would need to use the double-edged sword of storytelling against Tarquin to defeat him, and simply defeating him anonymously a long way off is not going to do that. People will just remember things were a lot more stable back when General Tarquin was around, wonder if he died or if he's ever coming back someday, and eventually somebody will decide that the desert needs more military authority. One by one, the claimants to Tarquin 2.0 will start to line up, and natural selection means the most intelligent, vicious, and authoritarian will likely rise to the top.

Because Tarquin wasn't discredited, because someone thought just pretending nothing happened when he died would be the best way to stifle his legacy.

There's not a lot of ways that would actually in any way work to "defeat" Tarquin truly, certainly not most of the theories we discuss here on the forums. If it was going to be easy for someone to dismantle what he's built, Tarquin would not be this old.

[RMS Oceanic]

I think you underestimate the power of imagination of the common people. If Tarquin died in the desert and The Order decided to shut up (for the reason you mentioned) about it, it would be one of the better ways for Tarquin to secure his legacy. Without him and Malack around, the EoB would quickly fall apart, a short civil war would break out and soon, there would be just a handful of small nations squabbling amongst themselves. But what would the people know about Tarquin? They would remember his name, that he was a head general, and that shortly after he had disappeared in the desert, the empire came undone. Over the course of the years, his exact actions, individual heinous deeds etc. would all become hazy and twisted and the very uncertainty of his fate, which so many people here wish for him, would turn him into a legend. And even generations later, during some new military conflict, the refugees on the losing side will whisper tales about General Tarquin; tales of hope that one day, he'll come back from the ever-changing dunes and unite the lands into a single empire once again.

Bolded is what I take issue with. If the Map Lady had no recollection of Tyrinnaria, what chance does Tarquin have? As has been spelled out by Rich, the common folk of the Western Continent doesn't care who is currently oppressing them, just that they don't upset them.

"Tar-who? Oh, a General for the Nation of Bloodstain or something. Yeah, he disappeared before it was overrun. Probably assassinated in my opinion, he wouldn't be the first."

[Jay R]

Just let somebody cast Owl's Wisdom, Fox's Cunning an Eagle's Splendor on the Blood Empress, explain her what Tarquin is doing and let her munch and swallow Tarquin the next time he goes check on her.

I doubt if this would work. Tarquin has had a plan in place to kill her quickly before he ever put her on the throne.

[Mike Havran]

Bolded is what I take issue with. If the Map Lady had no recollection of Tyrinnaria, what chance does Tarquin have? As has been spelled out by Rich, the common folk of the Western Continent doesn't care who is currently oppressing them, just that they don't upset them.

"Tar-who? Oh, a General for the Nation of Bloodstain or something. Yeah, he disappeared before it was overrun. Probably assassinated in my opinion, he wouldn't be the first."Not a big chance in Sandsedge, to be sure, but the people in the Empire of Blood itself will remember the times when they were part of the largest empire on the whole continent.

Also, don't forget that at some point in the future, General Tarquin's Imperial Guard Manual will rise to the analogy of say, Sun Tzu's The Art of War.

[AstralFire]

Does the general public in the Empires of BST actually think that they're part of the largest Empire in the Western Continent...?

[Mike Havran]

Does the general public in the Empires of BST actually think that they're part of the largest Empire in the Western Continent...?Judging from the map (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0698.html), the EoB is the largest one, and I think maps are available in the Empire. Also, the parade (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0755.html) implies the Empires put a lot of gp into propaganda and that's the sort of things they would like to bring up.

[Gift Jeraff]

They just need to snuff him. Sabine can take care of ruining his reputation at her leisure afterwards, being a shapeshifter and all.
This plus

Not a big chance in Sandsedge, to be sure, but the people in the Empire of Blood itself will remember the times when they were part of the largest empire on the whole continent.

Also, don't forget that at some point in the future, General Tarquin's Imperial Guard Manual will rise to the analogy of say, Sun Tzu's The Art of War.

:belkar: When in doubt, set the Empires' libraries on fire.

[AstralFire]

Judging from the map (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0698.html), the EoB is the largest one, and I think maps are available in the Empire. Also, the parade (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0755.html) implies the Empires put a lot of gp into propaganda and that's the sort of things they would like to bring up.

But we have no way of really knowing that there haven't been larger recent empires (incl. Tarquin's first attempt, when Nale was a baby), which I think is a reasonable doubt because of how little space any of those nations are taking up.

[Fish]

This seems apropos:

I met a traveller from an antique land
Who said: "Two vast and trunkless legs of stone
Stand in the desert. Near them on the sand,
Half sunk, a shattered visage lies, whose frown
And wrinkled lip and sneer of cold command
Tell that its sculptor well those passions read
Which yet survive, stamped on these lifeless things,
The hand that mocked them and the heart that fed.
And on the pedestal these words appear:
`My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings:
Look on my works, ye mighty, and despair!'
Nothing beside remains. Round the decay
Of that colossal wreck, boundless and bare,
The lone and level sands stretch far away".

"Ozymandias," Percy Byssche Shelley, 1818

[Mike Havran]

But we have no way of really knowing that there haven't been larger recent empires (incl. Tarquin's first attempt, when Nale was a baby), which I think is a reasonable doubt because of how little space any of those nations are taking up.That's true. Tarquin's first empire was, like 12 nations vs. 26 with the possibility of some indifferent ones. Seems like he had his first empire of size on par with one of the recent Empires.

[BlackDragonKing]

They just need to snuff him. Sabine can take care of ruining his reputation at her leisure afterwards, being a shapeshifter and all.

People say this, but I don't think it would ever actually work out that way.

Sabine is probably the smartest member of the Linear Guild, but this is like being the sturdiest water balloon dropped out of a high building. It's not exactly a contest with high standards, which is very fortunate for Sabine. She's had an "acting" gig before; "moderately friendly, not suspicious adventurer." She (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0046.html) wasn't (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0053.html)exactly (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0054.html) SUBTLE.

Sabine's not that bright or all that patient, and she has no way to know or care that Tarquin's obsessed with being remembered as cool after his death; she's never been around or listening when he's gone into details of that with Elan, and it wasn't something Tarquin was all that jazzed about when Nale was his only son since back then Tarquin was just assuming one day a paladin would bust in one day and decapitate him. Sabine's not nearly intelligent or thorough enough she would spend a lot of time acting like a fool in Tarquin's form to get some form of petty revenge; she'd kill him, if she was able, and then try to get his soul tortured in hell or something. Elan cares that Tarquin's not a legend after he dies. Literally no one else in the comic does, and people here seem to forget that regularly.

Besides, why would Sabine be going that extra mile when she knows perfectly well that she's going to have to bluff by a lot of soldiers and evil adventurers that know Tarquin's a lot of things but a loser isn't one of them, and one person with true seeing or some way to bust her transformation means any attempt to ruin his legacy is over. Not to mention Sabine has to be aware any member of Team Tarquin would kick her ass in a fight; hell, she has no way to kill Tarquin herself, she'd have to hope Xykon or someone else did it for her.

And even taking ALL OF THAT out of the way, why exactly are the IFCC letting her sit in a desert somewhere trying to act like a fool out of petty spite (which I still contend she's not nearly creative enough for in the first place) when she's supposed to be advancing their sinister goals? Sabine's got WORK to do, and I'm pretty sure Lee doesn't give a rat's patootie that she's got a score to settle.

[Mike Havran]

Elan cares that Tarquin's not a legend after he dies. Literally no one else in the comic does, and people here seem to forget that regularly. Even Elan might not care about it to the point he would start orchestrating some legacy-spoiling action once Tarquin dies. The only people who really care about it are Tarquin and forumites.

[Gift Jeraff]

People say this, but I don't think it would ever actually work out that way.

Sabine is probably the smartest member of the Linear Guild, but this is like being the sturdiest water balloon dropped out of a high building. It's not exactly a contest with high standards, which is very fortunate for Sabine. She's had an "acting" gig before; "moderately friendly, not suspicious adventurer." She (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0046.html) wasn't (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0053.html)exactly (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0054.html) SUBTLE.

Nale is smarter than Sabine. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11883778&postcount=198)

[BlackDragonKing]

Nale is smarter than Sabine. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11883778&postcount=198)

Oh, wow, she's not even as smart as Nale.

Yeah, she would not be able to pull this off even if she was inclined to.

[Gift Jeraff]

Oh, wow, she's not even as smart as Nale.

Yeah, she would not be able to pull this off even if she was inclined to.

If she pulls it off, does that make her smarter than you? :smallwink:

[BlackDragonKing]

If she pulls it off, does that make her smarter than you? :smallwink:

If she pulls it off, it would smell to me of enormous plot contrivance and honestly rather out-of-character behavior, so I'm probably going to go with no there.

Sabine's not exactly lady complexity, and she's a hedonist. She focuses on immediate, visceral revenge against people she hates. She'd level-drain Haley to death or rip her head off, but the notion of impersonating her afterwards specifically to make people hate her would probably just draw a blank stare. Tarquin has even less incentive to waste however long it takes risking her neck every day to ruin his nebulous legacy, since she could just have him killed and then pull strings in hell to torment him in the afterlife. What the hell does she care if anyone knows who he is or thinks he's awesome? Would you disguise yourself as someone you hated, knowing if anyone called your bluff you would be killed in nasty ways and the smear campaign you'd been piloting would go down in flames, when you have them chained up in your proverbial basement with torture implements on hand?

If the answer was yes, then wow, really? :smalltongue:

This is getting off-topic to trashing a popular pet theory I find ridiculous, however, so I'll try to get us back to the "ultimate revenge" against Tarquin.

This might just be me, but nothing anyone does to try and make his defeat obscure or alter history to disguise his accomplishments is going to be the ultimate revenge. Tarquin's lived like a god and had the time of his life for decades, and no matter HOW badly those last few minutes suck, nothing can take that away from him, and he won't be around for whatever cunning legacy-bomb gets dropped to get butthurt over it.

But what if you could take that away from him?

I honestly think the way I'd get revenge on Tarquin would be to find a way to give him amnesia and make arrangements for his retirement somewhere quiet he will be watched to prevent any potential relapses. Beat that guy's sword into a plowshare, hand it to him, and let him live out his twilight years as one of the anonymous peasant schmucks he's stepped over his entire life.

Then his reward for the short, amnesiac lifetime of boring, anonymous toil is to answer in the afterlife for crimes he doesn't even get to have fun remembering he committed!

[Trillium]

I honestly think the way I'd get revenge on Tarquin would be to find a way to give him amnesia and make arrangements for his retirement somewhere quiet he will be watched to prevent any potential relapses. Beat that guy's sword into a plowshare, hand it to him, and let him live out his twilight years as one of the anonymous peasant schmucks he's stepped over his entire life.

Then his reward for the short, amnesiac lifetime of boring, anonymous toil is to answer in the afterlife for crimes he doesn't even get to have fun remembering he committed!

What sort of revenge it is, if he neither know he's being punished, nor remembers for what? Revenge is about seeing the object of vengeance suffer and possibly repent.

[BlackDragonKing]

What sort of revenge it is, if he neither know he's being punished, nor remembers for what? Revenge is about seeing the object of vengeance suffer and possibly repent.

In some ways, I think this is the beauty of him not knowing.

Tarquin tortures people all the time. He's familiar with torture. He knows all about ironic torments and nasty things happening to people whether they deserve it or not. But it's still INTERESTING. Suffering is the familiar grease that keeps the gears of conflict moving in Tarquin's orderly, vile universe, and while his suffering is obviously not what he has in mind, he's aware that might be the price he has to pay in the end for having a tremendously successful life as a villain, and even then he's got a couple years, tops, of suffering compared to decades of living it up if he's got some plan for the afterlife, and I can't imagine a man like Tarquin doesn't.

Being defeated in a way as boring as being turned into a background character would be far more horrifying to the part of Tarquin that's still Tarquin because the background is something that happens to other people in his world. Peasant schmucks and their ilk are meaningless numbers in his universe, and amnesia putting him among them means he is now a number with no narrative significance instead of the villain who got away with everything for decades until at last karma caught up to him, possibly in a very cool way. He still has to suffer in the afterlife for everything he did, but he's denied both the comfort of knowing he's innocent and the pleasure of at least having been able to ENJOY all the things he did to get there. He's not suffering in the afterlife with his long career to give him some comfort and ideas, all he's got with him is a big blank, a few years of hard, tedious labor, and someone telling him about all the cool stuff someone else who was apparently him did which is the reason he now has to burn for eternity without even getting to remember how awesome it was.

Repentance is a point, but I don't think anyone really expects Tarquin to repent at this point in life. Although I would concede I'd be interested to see exactly what a storyline where Nale and Tarquin, and their teammates as well, possibly, could actually be convinced to sincerely try to mend their ways would entail.

[King of Nowhere]

as of strip 930, i think it's brilliant and I blame myself for not thingking about it before:
having him defeated by a secondary character!