Tiefling vs Aasimar (a balancing question)

[Vhaidara]

So, I'm playing a Tiefling in one campaign. I got the DM to drop my CHA penalty in exchange for interaction penalties, and I downgraded to humanoid to lose the LA.

I was comparing Aasimar and Tiefling just now. Here's how they stand (accounting for dropping LA by being humanoid instead of outsider).
Aasimar:
+2 WIS, +2 CHA
+2 Spot, +2 Listen
Resistance 5 to cold, acid, and electricity
Darkvision 60ft
Daylight 1/day (3rd level spell)

Tiefling:
+2 DEX, +2 INT [-2 CHA that I got removed]
+2 Bluff, +2 Hide, [-x to social interaction that was added]
Darkvision 60ft
Darkness 1/day (2nd level spell)

Anyone else notice that the Aasimar is just better? No penalties, a higher level SLA, and 3 resistances.

And my DM knows these things because he's playing an Aasimar in another campaign I'm in.

Am I justified asking for resistances? I was thinking 5 each for fire, cold, and maybe acid.

[Angelalex242]

•+2 Dexterity, +2 Intelligence, -2 Charisma.
•Medium size.
•A tiefling’s base land speed is 30 feet.
•Darkvision out to 60 feet.
•Racial Skills: Tieflings have a +2 racial bonus on Bluff and Hide checks.
•Racial Feats: A tiefling gains feats according to its class levels.
•Special Attacks (see above): Darkness.
•Special Qualities (see above): Resistance to cold 5, electricity 5, and fire 5.
•Automatic Languages: Common, Infernal. Bonus Languages: Draconic, Dwarven, Elven, Gnome, Goblin, Halfling, Orc.
•Favored Class: Rogue.
•Level adjustment +1.

They have resistances. Somehow you missed them.

Anyways, Aasimar are for Paladins, Clerics, Bards, and Sorcerers. And Maybe Druids.

Tieflings are for rogues and wizards. Especially rogues.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Darkness is also probably more useful than Daylight, in the long run.

[Pluto!]

Darkness is typically a better SLA, fire is probably the most common elemental attack and a lot of characters just don't care about the Charisma modifiers, but you aren't wrong - the Aasimar just has bigger numbers.

Not sure how reasonable it is to ask for a Lesser Tiefling buff - even if the Aasimar has numeric advantages, LA 0 Tiefling is still one of only a handful of races that can reasonably compete with Human for build space. If other players are running Half-Elves or Half-Orcs, I probably wouldn't even consider it; if they're running Whisper Gnomes, Fire Elves and Water Orcs, it probably wouldn't be unreasonable.

[bekeleven]

Yeah, Aasimar is better on paper... funny that everyone and their mother plays tiefling, then, isn't it?

+2 to bluff counteracts a minus to charisma for builds besides diplomancers and DMM clerics, there's no build (except full-plate users) that dumps dex entirely, and and int bonus buffs the best arcane casters as well as giving bonus skill points. And the only thing daylight has over darkness is being third level - besides level-based counters and dispels, darkness is entirely more tactically useful.

And, of course, both are extremely good in lesser outsider forms. Some of the best LA +0, up there with Human, Strongheart Halfling, Neraph, Warforged, Anthro Bats, Kobolds, Gnomes...

[Angelalex242]

I believe the prevelance of Teiflings over Aasimar has more to do with the fact people think being part demon is cool, and being a goody goody is lame.

But if you're playing a Paladin or a Cleric...the choice is clear. Admittedly, though, Daylight is mostly just there for that most unfortunate of days when your torches go out and your non darkvision companions are blind.

[bekeleven]

I should also mention that the darkvision is an outsider trait, and (as far as I can tell) is lost as a lesser planetouched.

The race is still powerful, of course.

[Zaydos]

My personal house rule is to either drop the Charisma penalty entirely or give tieflings the option of having their 2e ability bonuses but doubled without the penalties (i.e. +2 Int and +2 Cha). Because seriously part fiends should be Charismatic.

[Angelalex242]

I believe the charisma penalty for a tiefling is meant to simulate racism.

"Nothing good can come from the blood of fiends, do not trust that one, no matter how many times he's proved himself..."

[Lanaya]

I believe the charisma penalty for a tiefling is meant to simulate racism.

"Nothing good can come from the blood of fiends, do not trust that one, no matter how many times he's proved himself..."

Doesn't really make sense once you look too closely though. Racism doesn't make you inherently less charismatic, and it wouldn't give penalties to intimidate, or reduce your ability to be a sorcerer, or make you less capable of turning undead. Racism is the sort of thing which should be represented by circumstance penalties on certain checks, your ability score represents your own abilities independent of how others view you.

[Big Fau]

Darkness is an infinitely more useful SLA than Daylight, due to the feats from Drow of the Underdark.

[SassyQuatch]

I believe the charisma penalty for a tiefling is meant to simulate racism.

"Nothing good can come from the blood of fiends, do not trust that one, no matter how many times he's proved himself..."
That would probably be presented as a penalty to social skills.

Sadly, the reason is more likely the game stance of "people like pretty things, stuff like horns are icky". Magic doesn't like to be spontaneous, so you have to be good looking to get it to let it's guard down.

[Zaydos]

I believe the charisma penalty for a tiefling is meant to simulate racism.

"Nothing good can come from the blood of fiends, do not trust that one, no matter how many times he's proved himself..."

Might have worked in 2e where Charisma was how well you could get people to like you. Doesn't work in 3.X where it's how powerful your force of spirit and all is in addition.

This makes it ironic that in 2e tieflings had a Charisma bonus (where you could argue a penalty would be appropriate more easily), and in 3.X has a Charisma penalty (where it makes less sense and they are cast as being prone to Charisma heavy classes).

[Curmudgeon]

I should also mention that the darkvision is an outsider trait, and (as far as I can tell) is lost as a lesser planetouched.
You might think that, but you would be wrong. It's both an Outsider trait and a specific Tiefling racial trait.

[Spore]

I believe the charisma penalty for a tiefling is meant to simulate racism.

"Nothing good can come from the blood of fiends, do not trust that one, no matter how many times he's proved himself..."

It's still odd why Tieflings have a CHA-penalty when most evil outsiders have outstanding CHA for SLAs. Seriously, Charisma is their thing. I'd personally put the penalty in Wis (pacting with a demon most likely reflects a bad choice rather than having a low self perception.

A penalty to CHA is not just not needed, it is unreasonable.

[Psyren]

Pathfinder explains it by saying: "Tieflings are quick in body and mind, but are inherently strange and unnerving."

The penalty is also negated if they are playing a sorcerer with a fiendish bloodline.

[Angelalex242]

That is, they get a penalty for the same reason Aasimar get a bonus.

People trust good outsiders. People do not trust evil outsiders.

Of course, by the logic of why Tieflings get a Cha penalty, Batman should get one too. Cause his whole schtick is unnerving criminals!

[Spore]

Pathfinder explains it by saying: "Tieflings are quick in body and mind, but are inherently strange and unnerving."

The penalty is also negated if they are playing a sorcerer with a fiendish bloodline.

If there is a pit fiend and a Tiefling wizard in the room I am CERTAINLY more unnerved by a hulking devil.

[Vhaidara]

The problem I've always had with the CHA penalty is that it means Aasimar (angel blooded) are better warlocks (channelers of dark fiendish powers) than Tieflings (fiend blooded).

And before anyone points out that Warlocks benefit as much (if not more) from DEX, I have the same problem with the fact that any race with a CHA penalty is an inherently worse Sorcerer (your power is inherent to you) than a human. I don't feel any race should have a CHA penalty, just ad hoced social skill penalties (also, fiend blood makes you bad at Intimidate wat?)

[HaikenEdge]

Agreed on Intimidate, but would throw in Bluff as well; either people are more likely to believe you because you're a great liar, or they're less likely to believe you because they think everything with fiendish blood are filthy liars.

[Vhaidara]

And that's why I'm fine with circumstance penalties on interaction skills.

[bekeleven]

Keep in mind that the -1 to interaction skills (bluff, intimidate, diplomacy, disguise, UMD) is a net of -5 to skills that matter, unless you have a gather information or handle animal build. +1 int gives more to an interaction build by level 3 even without the +2 to bluff, which means tieflings also have a higher max on bluff checks, and the disparity keeps on increasing.

[Psyren]

If there is a pit fiend and a Tiefling wizard in the room I am CERTAINLY more unnerved by a hulking devil.

For all we know, Pit Fiends do have a -2 Cha built in. It's just not a very noticeable penalty among the other 28 points :smalltongue:


The problem I've always had with the CHA penalty is that it means Aasimar (angel blooded) are better warlocks (channelers of dark fiendish powers) than Tieflings (fiend blooded).

And before anyone points out that Warlocks benefit as much (if not more) from DEX, I have the same problem with the fact that any race with a CHA penalty is an inherently worse Sorcerer (your power is inherent to you) than a human. I don't feel any race should have a CHA penalty, just ad hoced social skill penalties (also, fiend blood makes you bad at Intimidate wat?)

Well as I mentioned above, in PF they are just as good at sorcery provided their sorcery stems from their fiendish blood. With any other bloodline they are worse - which kind of makes sense if you view the fiendish heritage as a taint, trying to override the draconic or fey or "human destiny" aspect of their mixed blood.

Aasimar meanwhile are "insightful, confident, and personable" - explaining their all-upside stats.

[Vhaidara]

Only ever been in 3.5 (Aside from BG and NWN), never played PF or read the books. Been told they're good though.

[Telonius]

If you're going for a Rogue-ish character, Tiefling has the Tiefling Paragon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/racialParagonClasses.htm#tieflingParagon) available. Three levels with all good saves, 3/4 BAB, double one of the resistances, Darkness 3/day, double the bonuses on Bluff and Hide, and a +2 Dex bonus. I don't believe they ever made an official Aasimar Paragon to mirror it.

[Vhaidara]

It's an already made character. I noticed the resistances being weird when I advanced to Warlock 10 and picked fire resistance, then went "Wait, I'm basically a minor hellspawn. Why do I need 10 levels in warlock to get fire resistance?"

[Psyren]

Only ever been in 3.5 (Aside from BG and NWN), never played PF or read the books. Been told they're good though.

PF powered up the base races, which allowed them to remove the LA from Tieflings and Aasimar without unbalancing anything. They also added a bunch of interesting alternate racial traits and favored class bonuses to both races. For example, Tieflings can get a tail that can hold/retrieve non-weapon items (metamagic rods are a good use for it) + hardened scales on their skin, and Aasimar gain an trait that lets them count as both humans and outsiders for the purposes of spells and prereqs. There's pretty fun stuff there.

Tiefling (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/other-races/featured-races/arg-tiefling)
Aasimar (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/other-races/featured-races/arg-aasimar)


It's an already made character. I noticed the resistances being weird when I advanced to Warlock 10 and picked fire resistance, then went "Wait, I'm basically a minor hellspawn. Why do I need 10 levels in warlock to get fire resistance?"

I think they get fire resistance 5 in both editions don't they?

[Vhaidara]

Looking over it again, it (fire resistance) is listed in MM, but not in Races of Destiny (the one I tend to use because I love the book).

[Psyren]

Looking over it again, it (fire resistance) is listed in MM, but not in Races of Destiny (the one I tend to use because I love the book).

You're right, looks like they left it out of RoD.

Anyway, I like RoD too, but the Tiefling art in that book is just... oh dear god.

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/rod_gallery/86313.jpg

I mean, what's up with her stunted baby arm... and is she going down the stairs, or up?... And is she kneeling or were her ankles cut off... And the lopsided bewbs... and that weird cat-ferret thing that I guess is her familiar? It's just awful all the way around.

[ericgrau]

-2 cha doesn't really matter. Dex & int have rogue synergy. Wis & cha kind of have divine class synergy, but usually one of the two has almost no effect. The SLA on both doesn't do much except in some campaigns.

Maybe one is a hair above the other but I'm not even sure which one that is.

[Spore]

For all we know, Pit Fiends do have a -2 Cha built in. It's just not a very noticeable penalty among the other 28 points :smalltongue:


I knew it. Upper and lower planes are plastered with cheating characters. Maybe THAT is the reason they transcended to a nearly divine status. DM bribing and cheating.

Blue is sarcasm, no?

[Vhaidara]

-2 cha doesn't really matter. Dex & int have rogue synergy. Wis & cha kind of have divine class synergy, but usually one of the two has almost no effect. The SLA on both doesn't do much except in some campaigns.

Maybe one is a hair above the other but I'm not even sure which one that is.

I was also comparing them to the Fiend Folio Planetouched. Specifically the shyft
+2 on 2 stats, -2 on 2 more, standard resistances etc, but the SLA once a 1/day ethereal jaunt. Went from a LA +1 (normal) to LA +3.

[TuggyNE]

Anyway, I like RoD too, but the Tiefling art in that book is just... oh dear god.

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/rod_gallery/86313.jpg

I mean, what's up with her stunted baby arm... and is she going down the stairs, or up?... And is she kneeling or were her ankles cut off... And the lopsided bewbs... and that weird cat-ferret thing that I guess is her familiar? It's just awful all the way around.

They had to justify -2 Cha somehow!