Ventriloquism + Bardic Music

[Deaxsa]

Could a bard that was trying to avoid detection and had cast invisibility on himself so as to avoid being SEEN use the spell Ventriloquism so as to seem to be in a different square, yet (this is the important part) still convey the magical effect?

Which would be the point of origin for the effect; the point of emanation, or the location of the bard himself?

[Deophaun]

Doesn't work.

See the school? Illusion (figment). The sound anyone hears from it is a false sensation, not actually existing. Since the requirement for bardic music is that the targets must hear you, and not an illusion that mimics you, bardic music will not work through it.

Now, if you used the message spell, which is a transmutation, that's a different story.

[Doc_Maynot]

RAW, I'd say the bard. But RAI, I'd say the Ventriloquism point.

[Deaxsa]

Doesn't work.

See the school? Illusion (figment). The sound anyone hears from it is a false sensation, not actually existing. Since the requirement for bardic music is that the targets must hear you, and not an illusion that mimics you, bardic music will not work through it.

Now, if you used the message spell, which is a transmutation, that's a different story.

what if they fail their will saves? they cannot tell the difference.... so do they get the effect?


to explain a little bit more, the bard in question will be VERY near death and cast invisibility on herself, yet the party will be facing an initmidator/scarlet corsair. so she'll be attempting to countersong the intimidate checks(i don't care if you say this does not work, it's going to work) by singing invisibly.. however another layer of defense would be nice for her. so that her location is not slashed at by an angry Dragon (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheDragon).

[Deophaun]

what if they fail their will saves? they cannot tell the difference.... so do they get the effect?
No. Whether or not they tell the difference is of no consequence. What matters is they must hear the bard, not hear a simulation of the bard.

Additionally, you only get a Will save if you interact with the illusion. Experiencing the illusion (such as seeing the illusory bridge or hearing the cries of illusory wolves) is not enough.

But for your scenario, message works just fine. The targets need to still be within 30 feet of the bard.


so she'll be attempting to countersong the intimidate checks(i don't care if you say this does not work, it's going to work)
I'm not even sure what this means, but if you're going to go this far, you can say "F all the rules! Ventriloquism works!" as ventriloquism's a less egregious breach.

[Deaxsa]

No. Whether or not they tell the difference is of no consequence. What matters is they must hear the bard, not hear a simulation of the bard.

Additionally, you only get a Will save if you interact with the illusion. Experiencing the illusion (such as seeing the illusory bridge or hearing the cries of illusory wolves) is not enough.

But for your scenario, message works just fine. The targets need to still be within 30 feet of the bard.


I'm not even sure what this means, but if you're going to go this far, you can say "F all the rules! Ventriloquism works!" as ventriloquism's a less egregious breach.

hahha... i missed the part where message was a cantrip... and i clearly disagree with you about the whole "which is a worse breach of the rules" (else i'd have started a thread about that). ok, yea. thanks all, sorry if i was being obstinate.

[Deophaun]

Ventriloquism is the lesser breach because, to figure out how it works, you need to wade into the weeds of illusion mechanics to figure it out, and most players, even a lot of people familiar with bards and illusion magic, aren't going to know anything is out of place if you play it that way. And even if you do wind up called on it, it's an easy "mistake" to make.

The thing with countersong somehow applying to an offensive? use of demoralize is a real headscratcher that would cause players to take notice. And I'm wondering why not use inspire competence instead, when the corsair is apparently built for Intimidate and so shouldn't need the bard's Perform check.

[No brains]

I thought some illusions really were heard, and only figments were inside the target's heads. Do they rules say that the sound of a bard's spell isn't the sound of the bard? Can a bardic music instrument only be withing the bard's hands?

[Deophaun]

I thought some illusions really were heard, and only figments were inside the target's heads.
Shadows are really experienced (they're quasi-real), figments are not real, but everyone experiences them the same way (they also do not exist inside the viewer's head; mindless creatures experience figments just fine). Here's the text with the relevant portions highlighted:

A figment spell creates a false sensation. Those who perceive the figment perceive the same thing, not their own slightly different versions of the figment. (It is not a personalized mental impression.) Figments cannot make something seem to be something else. A figment that includes audible effects cannot duplicate intelligible speech unless the spell description specifically says it can. If intelligible speech is possible, it must be in a language you can speak. If you try to duplicate a language you cannot speak, the image produces gibberish. Likewise, you cannot make a visual copy of something unless you know what it looks like.

Because figments and glamers (see below) are unreal, they cannot produce real effects the way that other types of illusions can. They cannot cause damage to objects or creatures, support weight, provide nutrition, or provide protection from the elements. Consequently, these spells are useful for confounding or delaying foes, but useless for attacking them directly.

A figment’s AC is equal to 10 + its size modifier.

Do they rules say that the sound of a bard's spell isn't the sound of the bard?
What's important is that the rules do not say that the sound of a spell produced by a bard is the sound of a bard. It's like saying that a person looking at an illusion of a dragon created by a halfling bard who is hidden around a corner is somehow looking at the bard. The implication would be that everyone with line of sight to the bard's illusion would have line of sight to the bard.