[PF] Melee BSF

[Spore]

I have a lot of time to create and balance a character for our upcoming campaign finale. All players have three characters in play to choose from. As I conclude, the players will pick as follows:

1. Witch 10 with sleep hex, no cackle, healing hex. (alternatives: barbarian, skill monkey rogue)
2. Rogue 7/Transmuter 1/Arcane Archer 2
3. Alchemist 10 or Summoner 10 (alternative: Witch with cackle, evil eye, reroll monster)
4. Fighter 10 (Trip Monkey) (perhaps Fire Bloodline Sorcerer)

I am playing a Sorcerer 6/Dragon Disciple 4 (fire blasting plus utility, almost not control or debuff) and a Dual Cursed Oracle of Bones (rerolls plus undead summon, no undead minions). We are all kind of suboptimized and I'd like to contribute as much to the party as possible. I am not sure if I am even allowed to add another character but we aren't quite an optimized bunch so it could be okay (I could always UMD heals with both characters). Still, I want to be prepared if things go wrong and I have accepted my role in the party as kind of a defensive player. The DM can bring up much more hurt when the party is properly buffed, summons are in play and the BBEG is debuffed. I would love to play my Sorcerer but I fear that blasting, impr. Invis. and Fear isn't enough to control the battlefield. If our fighter brings his main character, another blasty sorcerer, we kind of lack a melee dude.

On that premises, which melee character would you introduce (please no Oradin, as I am playing two oracles and really want some variety) to the party? The setting is kind of nordic but I won't really like a barbarian either because we are too low for Come and Get Me. We will need something that can take a lot of heat from a single or several CR appropriate monsters. Do you even think we'd need a BSF? What are your opinions on wildshape druids, Sword and Board paladins (we will meet undead for that I am sure), unarmed fighter (grapple monkey)?

[JHShadon]

Race-wise you might want to go with Half-Giant (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/races/half-giant) so you can have an extra punch with weapons and count as a larger creature for other things, other than that I don't really have much advice.

[Spore]

Race-wise you might want to go with Half-Giant (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/races/half-giant) so you can have an extra punch with weapons and count as a larger creature for other things, other than that I don't really have much advice.

Third party is frowned upon but we get some sort of largish subrace to humans that can wield large weapons, Basically trading the extra feat for cold resistance, large weapons without penalty, Str/Wis Bonus (Dex Penalty) and a free skill focus. So yeah, we basically have that without powerful build. (I might suggest powerful build instead of the free skill focus. It is more fitting.)

[avr]

Synthesist Summoner does BSF better than most fighters. It includes a point where you lose the monster you're wearing but aren't unconscious or dead which can be nice to have. It should play quite differently from a standard summoner if that character shows up.

Druids aren't as good at melee themselves as they are in 3.5. A paladin might actually do the role better.

I have no great knowledge of the PF grappling rules.

[avr]

Synthesist Summoner in a Nordic setting = werewolf or werebear. Should work just fine ...

[Crustypeanut]

I'm running a Dwarf Synthesist Summoner right now (Randomly rolled the race/class combo Heh), and holy **** this woman can kick some serious ass. Level 4 currently, buffed with Mage Armor and Shield, using her Eidolon's evolution points to add natural armor and physical attribute bonuses, she is a beast. With her 27 AC and high hit points, she just charges the lines of enemies and comes out (mostly) unscathed. And she's not even focused on defense - she does the single-highest damage per hit of the group right now, even though she's only using a +1 Cold Iron Warhammer. She two-hands it with power attack.

Including her hit points and her Eidolon's hit points, she has 56 hit points, and can heal herself.

So yes, Synthesist Summoners are great BSFs. My group's Samurai, while she crits left and right, sadly is less proficient at killing outright, though is more versatile with the 16-strength Mwk Composite Longbow she has, not to mention being an elf, thus higher Dex than normal.

The Samurai is also fond of Coup-de-gracing things the Dwarf Sorcerer (Again, all characters were rolled randomly because 'lol') knocks out with Color Spray. Only one creature to date has survived one of her coup de graces - it was coup de graced a second time a round later. Didn't survive that one.. and she's coup-de-graced about a dozen creatures so far.

*Edit*: The Dwarf Summoner's flavor is that she summons a massive suit of armor, essentially. As massive as it is, they can't even tell her gender.

[Spore]

I might add that I wanted to stay in the general power range of the group. As we are not well optimized (and synthesist having a bad rep of being a powergaming thing) I would like to stay in the general area of power.

[Crustypeanut]

Makes perfect sense, actually.

If you're in a viking setting.. why not a Skinwalker Ranger, focusing on natural weapons?

Werebear-kin, even!

[Crustypeanut]

Skinwalker (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/other-races/more-races#TOC-Skinwalker-10-Race-Points-), since they're relatively new and not necessarily well-known yet.

Comes in a wide variety of flavors much like Tieflings and Aasimar.. though apparently they don't have those up yet, unless I'm just missing where they are.

[Spore]

Skinwalker (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/other-races/more-races#TOC-Skinwalker-10-Race-Points-), since they're relatively new and not necessarily well-known yet.

Comes in a wide variety of flavors much like Tieflings and Aasimar.. though apparently they don't have those up yet, unless I'm just missing where they are.

That might fit greatly. I befriended a bunch of lycanthropes to fight in the war and defend the lands, but I obviously can't play a shapeshifter as people might protest.

I would love to play a werebear as grapple build, so I'd carry around Enlarge person potions and start wrestling death incarnate.

Lv 10 (or 11 depending) Barbarian 10:

(1) Combat Expertise
(B2) Superstition
(3) Improved Grapple
(B4) Strength Surge
(5) Raging Vitality
(B6) Lesser Beast Totem
(7) Extra Rage Power: Animal Fury
(B8) Beast Totem
(9) Multiattack
(B10) Greater Beast Totem (Pounce is just too good)

Str 26 Dex 8 Con 16 Int 8 Wis 14 Cha 8
Str 30 Dex 8 Con 22 while raging (if we get to 12, i would get more Dex, Combat Reflexes into CAGM Barb)

Now I only need a way to get in a bite attack and multiattack. CMB for grappling is +22 on Lv 10. While this is impressive, I can't possibly beat the CMD of a CR 12 daemon regularly without resorting to strength surge, which is quite sad.

[Crustypeanut]

One (or more)of the Skinwalker types grants a bite attack.. let me check which one(s)...

-----

Werebat-Kin
Werebear-Kin
Werecrocodile-Kin
Wererat-Kin
Wereshark-Kin
Weretiger-Kin
Werewolf-Kin

...So all of them except Wereboar-Kin.

Want more stats on one of these, such as the Werebear-Kin?

[Spore]

Werebear-Kin, Werewolf and Wererat would be appreciated.

If we are Lv 11 and I'd switch to Greater Grapple (plus wasting a talent on Impr. unarmed strike). I'd be only +27 for CMD with Grapple.

A Derghodaemon has CMD 38, so I have 45% chance to grapple or waste my turn. Something isn't right here. I can grapple and pin or try to grapple twice but stil. I would feel safer with a chance of 60%+.

[Crustypeanut]

Werebear-Kin Coldborn
---------------------------------
Ancestry: Werebear
Typical Alignment: LG
Ability Modifiers: +2 Con, -2 Cha (+2 Wis while Shapeshifted)
Alternate Skill Modifiers: Climb, Wild Empathy
Alternate Spell-Like Ability: Calm Animals 1/day
Bestial Features:

Bite attack that deals 1d6 damage
2 Claw attacks that each deal 1d4 damage
Climb speed of 20 ft
Scent to a range of 30 ft

=====================================
Wererat-Kin Nightsulk
---------------------------------
Ancestry: Wererat
Typical Alignment: LE
Ability Modifiers: +2 Int, -2 Str (+2 Dex while Shapeshifted)
Alternate Skill Modifiers: Handle Animal, Stealth in Urban Environments
Alternate Spell-Like Ability: Speak with animals (Rodents Only) 3/day
Bestial Features:

Bite attack that deals 1d6 damage
Climb speed of 30 ft
Distraction (Pathfinder RPG Bestiary 299)
Scent to a range of 30 ft

=====================================
Werewolf-Kin Witchwolf
---------------------------------
Ancestry: Werewolf
Typical Alignment: CE
Ability Modifiers: +2 Con, -2 Int (+2 Wis while Shapeshifted)
Alternate Skill Modifiers: Perception, Wild Empathy
Alternate Spell-Like Ability: Magic Fang 1/day
Bestial Features:

Bite attack that deals 1d6 damage
2 Claw attacks that each deal 1d4 damage
Darkvision 60ft
+2 Racial on all Saving Throws

[Spore]

Hm, those are pretty bad stats for a grapple build. Anything with additional strength?

[Crustypeanut]

Werebear-kin get a couple of unique feats you might like.

Beartrap Bite (Combat)
Prereqs: Weapon Focus(Bite), BAB +6
Benefit: Whenever you confirm a critical hit against a foe with your bite attack, if your confirmation roll matches or exceeds your foe's CMD, you can clamp down on your foe to prevent it from moving away as a free action. The foe cannot move outside the area threatened by your bite attack unless it breaks free of your bite. It can attempt to free itself with a combat maneuver check or Escape Artist check as if you were grappling it, but neither of you gains the grappled condition. You cannot use your bite attack while you maintain your grip on your foe, but you can release the bite as a swift action to end the effect.

Then, add this awesomely named feat:

Bear Hug (Combat)
Prereqs: Weapon Focus(Bite), BAB +8, Str 17, Beartrap Bite
Benefit: You can attempt to initiate a grapple against a foe trapped by your Beartrap Bite feat without provoking attacks of opportunity. You gain a +2 bonus on damage rolls against foes you are grappling.

Nothing else that mentions Grapple, though.

Edit: Reading those in more detail.. I guess they're not all *that* good. But still, it has a neat name at least! XD

[avr]

The base, non-variant skinwalkers can have a strength bonus as can scalehearts (i.e. werecrocodile kin) which should be handy to a grappler. The latter can have a bite attack too. If it sounds too non-Nordic look up Beowulf and Grendel. Specifically you're playing the bad guy.

Details on all the variants here (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/other-races/more-races/skinwalkers-10-rp).

[Spore]

Okay, of what I have concluded is that it is entirely pointless to try and beat the CMD of melee monsters with decent Str and Dex. A standard barbarian can grapple a caster and/or mixed monster no problem, and even a highly speciialized grappler can't have more than 60% chance to grapple a large outsider.

[avr]

Interesting; that's about what Frank Trollman came up with when PF first came out, that combat maneuvers on outsiders with good str/dex were a bad idea. A number of fans vilified him for saying it, but I didn't bother to confirm his figures at the time.

If the idea is to do battlefield control at double-digit levels maybe a mundane is not the way.

[Crustypeanut]

60% chance is not horrible, though - and if you grapple 'em, you gain a +5 to keep it up.

Personally, though, I'd be more worried about the demon - or whatever big bad you're grappling - ripping your face off for grappling it.

[Spore]

I play mundanes for heroic deeds and deaths. Not to survive :smallbiggrin:

[Crustypeanut]

The level 2 Fighter in my Ruins of Pathfinder: Road to Damnation campaign agrees with you, since he is charging a Giant Dust Digger (CR 5), alone, while the others stand on the dune behind him.

This is his first combat session in the campaign, having joined after replacing someone we lost (Due to going missing for almost three weeks - its a Play-by-post).

I'd hate for him to die so soon.. but he is a heavily armored juggernaut, so he might live.

[Spore]

Rest in Pieces.