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Yakk
2007-01-09, 05:03 PM
This is an attempt to make a better Fighter class. This class is not more powerful, it is simply more adaptable -- well, adapability can increase power. The huge number of Feats a Fighter gained was the calling card of the Fighter class -- so I found a way to enhance that aspect of the Fighter.

As an extra design perk, this Fighter class gains an ability of some kind at every single level.

So, without further ado...

At L 1 Fighters start out with two "Stances". Stances are sets of Feats, and a Fighter can have only one Stance active at any one time. Changing between Stances is usually a Standard Action -- so a character can change weapons, change Stances, and do a Standard Move as a Full Round Action starting from L 1.

A L 1 Fighter has two Stances, each with 1 Fighter Bonus Feat.

Fighters are encouraged to name their Stances.

All Fighter Bonus Feats are now "Fighter Stance Bonus Feats". Bonus Feats gained from being Human, from being a L 1, 3, 6, 9, etc character, or from other classes are not Figther Stance Feats, and are treated normally. Feats that are not Fighter Stance Feats are active regardless of what Stance the Fighter is in.

Each Fighter Stance Bonus Feat is a Bonus Feat for each stance. When you gain such a Feat, you get to pick different Feats for each stance (or the same one, if you choose).

At L 3, 7, 11 and 15 a Fighter gains a new Stance. Stances start out as copies of a previous Stance with 1/2 of the Stance Feats changed. (rounding isn't a problem, because a Fighter always has an even number of Stance Feats whenever she gains a new Stance).

On every level the Fighter does not gain a new Stance, they can pick exactly one Feat in exactly one Stance, and change it to a different Feat from the Fighter Bonus Feat list of their choice. Usually, a Fighter changes the most recent Stance they have learned, but it can also be used to change Stances learned earlier.

Changing from one Stance to another is a Standard Action by default.

Starting at L 5, the Fighter gains the ability to change Stances as Free Action once per day. At L 9, 13 and 17, the Fighter gains the ability to do this more times per day.

Starting at L 19, the Fighter may change Stances as a Free Action once per Battle, in in addition to the times per day allowance.

Stance Fighter progression chart:
L 1: Feat x1, Stance x2
L 2: Feat x2
L 3: Stance x3 (Copy with 1 Feat changed)
L 4: Feat x3
L 5: Quick Change 1/day
L 6: Feat x4
L 7: Stance x4 (Copy with 2 Feats changed)
L 8: Feat x5
L 9: Quick Change 2/day
L 10: Feat x6
L 11: Stance x5 (Copy with 3 Feats changed)
L 12: Feat x7
L 13: Quick Change 3/day
L 14: Feat x8
L 15: Stance x6 (Copy with 4 Feats changed)
L 16: Feat x9
L 17: Quick Change 5/day
L 18: Feat x10
L 19: Quick Change 1/battle
L 20: Feat x11

Note: When building a higher level character, you can assume that Stances before the latest one gained can be completely unlinked, and share as many or as few Feats with other Stances as you desire. There are enough chances to change Feats around in the levels between gaining Stances.

Out of combat, a Fighter should indicate a default Stance for each of their weapon loads, and should be assumed to be in that Stance unless otherwise mentioned.

Earlier, I posted a fighter varient with most of the above changes (less well done) and some extra abilities attached earlier. This change is much cleaner.

For a Feat to work, all of the prerequisite Feats must be availiable. So while it is possible to have Weapon Spec(Longsword) without Weapon Focus(Longsword) under the above system, it doesn't do the Fighter all that much good.

Yakk
2007-01-09, 05:09 PM
L 8 Fighter, Human
Elite array stats

Str: 17(19)
Dex: 14(16)
Con: 12
Int: 13
Wis: 10
Cha: 8

AC: 22
HP: 62 (using 6 hp/level for a d10 after L 1)

Equipment: (not certain if a L 8 character can afford this...)
Weapons: Strength(+4) Composite Longbow+1, Frost Spiked Chain +1, Ghost Touch Greatsword +1
Armor: Mithril Full Plate+1

Guantlets of Strength+2
Gloves of Dexterity+2

Core feats:
Combat Expertise, Dodge, Combat Reflexes, Power Attack

Stances:
Way of the Chain:
Mobility, Spring Attack, Whirlwind Attack, Improved Disarm, Exotic Weapon(Spiked Chain)
Chain, Full: +12/+7 or +12 (Whirlwind), 2d4+7 +1d6 cold
+12, 2d4+7+1d6 cold, Standard

Way of the Arrow:
Rapid Shot, Far Shot, Weapon Focus(Longbow), Weapon Spec(Long Bow), Shot on the Run
Bow, Full: +12/+7 or +10/+10/+5, 1d8+5 damage. +12, 1d8+5 Standard

Way of the Sword:
Cleave, Improved Sunder, Weapon Focus(Greatsword), Weapon Spec(Greatsword), Quickdraw
Greatsword, Full: +13/+8, 2d6+9 damage
+13, 2d6+9, Standard

Way of the Fist: (newest Stance, based off Way of the Chain)
Improved Unarmed Strike, Improved Grapple, Blindfight, Mobility, Improved Disarm
Fist: +12/+7, 1d3+4 damage
(mainly used for Grapple, and when disarmed.)

Daracaex
2007-01-09, 07:31 PM
So you can basically change your feats around to different sets at will? That's nifty, but it initially seems a bit too powerfull (I may be wrong). I do have some questions though.

You get two stances at first level, right? Does that mean you select two feats, one for each stance? When you get a Bonus fighter stance feat, do you add it to all of your stances, then switch it out later? or do you pick only one stance to add it to? Do you think you could clarify the process of adding feats please?

Yakk
2007-01-10, 12:58 AM
It is somewhat powerful -- but Fighters have lots of room for more power.

Yes, you get two Stances at first level. Each starts with 1 feat. Every time you gain a fighter bonus feat, you get to pick a different feat for each stance (or the same feat, if you choose).

You can't change between them at will -- it takes a Standard action, or starting at L 5 you can do instant changes a limited number of times per day.

It allows Fighters to make a "power build" around one Stance or two, but still have "general purpose" Stances to fall back on.

The above character is an example. His Greatsword stance is a relatively standard damage dealing build, and his Longbow stance is a relatively standard ranged damage build.

The other two Stances are specialty builds -- the Chain stance is both a defensive stance (the fighter can get a double AoO against any advancing character, then spring attack backwards on the Fighter's turn), good against large numbers of creatures (Whirlwind), and a great stance when fighting a large number of humans (Improved Disarm + Whirlwind...)

The Fist Stance means that the Fighter, even when disarmed, is a tough customer. A single improved disarm gets the Fighter a weapon. It is also useful when fighting casters, and can be shifted into when fighting invisible targets or in the dark.

...

Basically, what this Variant class does is change a Fighter from a one-trick pony to a many-trick pony. A well built fighter can now deal with multiple different situations with well-suited fighting Stances. It fits the feel of "masters of arms" very well -- as it stands in D&D, a Fighter often optimally is built around using one setup of weapons really really good.

With multiple stances, the advantages of one setup is not having to own as many different kinds of weapons, and an increased ease in changing stances.

...

A rules that is needed:
If you have a Prestigue class with prerequisite feats that you satisfy using Fighter Stance Feats, you can only use the prestigue class abilities while in a Stance with those Feats, and you must always have at least one Stance with those feats from then on.

Ultimatum479
2007-01-10, 06:41 PM
This whole idea is really, really cool, which is why I hate to say this...but I have to. It's rather overpowered.

Think of the massive number of feats you're giving a fighter: a level 20 fighter has, in effect, 66 feats above and beyond the normal feats of a level 20 character, and switching between them isn't too much of an inconvenience with the amount of free switches he gets per day. This may be balanced at low levels, but at higher levels I think the balance goes completely awry.

Perhaps one way to fix it would be to switch the quick changes to move actions instead of free actions, although I don't know if that's sufficient to balance this.

Daracaex
2007-01-11, 12:57 AM
So the fighter stay at the same power level at all times, but gains huge amounts of versatility. I love this! But, unfortunately, I have to agree with Ultimatum. Maybe if you just kept the quick changes to a minimum.

Ultimatum479
2007-01-11, 06:22 AM
Yeah, I think that might be sufficient...Changing from one stance to another is a full-round action by default, and a move action with a Quick Change. I think that's fair enough.

Yakk
2007-01-11, 10:55 AM
I'm significantly more worried about the balance effects of boosting low level fighters than high level fighters.

From L 11 to 20, core classes should match PrC classes in power per level.

To be able to change stances Quickly 1/battle with imputy (2 on a boss), you need to be a L 17 pure fighter. To be able to change stances Quickly 2/battle (3 on a boss) with imputy, you need to be a L 19 pure fighter. This means no PrCs and very little class splashing.

That L 19 Fighter who can change between multiple stances is to be compared with a L 19 Wizard who can cast 40 to 50 spells/day, 10+ of which are L 7 and above (which starts with Forcecage (effect: defeat target larger or smaller non-teleporter for 1500 gp, or target Huge or smaller melee), and goes up in power).

So the ramped up number of Quick Changes is intended to give the Fighter some kind of chance to keep up with the exponential power growth of caster classes.

I would rather ratchet down the number of Quick Changes rather than make them move actions. The Quick Change is what lets the Fighter occasionally leverage style changes during combat.

CaelCyndar1993
2007-01-11, 04:58 PM
What I would do is change when the fighter gets his bonus feats to every 2.5 levels, as so:
lvl 1
lvl 2
lvl 5
lvl 7
lvl 10
lvl 12
lvl 15
etc.

Yakk
2007-01-11, 06:02 PM
*nod*, that would weaken the Stance Fighter. I could even see splitting the Bonus feats between Stance feats and Core feats -- but I found that to be needlessly complicating.

It would also make it harder to convert an existing Fighter into this system. As it stands, you simply take the existing feats as the first stance+base feats. Next, figure out which feats you want as base, and which as your first stance.

Then, pick all but one of the remaining stances.

Lastly, create the latest stance. Have it fork off from an existing stance, and then change 1 feat for every level since they got it.

In essence, this Fighter is intended to be a lot more flexible than the Core Fighter, and a bit more powerful (from the flexibility). The increase in power is biased towards the high levels (as the fighter can switch stances more often), when melee classes start fallling seriously behind casters.

The other benefit of doing this is that it leaves more room for the other melee to have feat-based abilities without stepping on the toes of the Fighter. The Fighter now has a unique flavour ability (many stances of feats).

Daracaex
2007-01-11, 06:31 PM
The other problem now is that the other melee classes are gonna feel left out because their pure fighter can actually take on a well-built wizard now, so there might need to be a coresponding increase of power in other melee classes as well to get all the classes balanced.

Ultimatum479
2007-01-11, 07:07 PM
That can be an issue later, Daracaex. Let's focus on balancing this class first.

Reducing the amount of bonus feats was an idea I contemplated, but I think that would have a much more drastic effect than my earlier suggestion of making changes full-round and quick-changes move actions. Fewer stances would have less of an effect, but fewer feats...that'll affect each and every stance. Dunno if that's what you want. Might actually make it too weak.

Daracaex
2007-01-12, 12:23 AM
lol, sorry.

Well let's take a look at a way to do it Ultimatums way. You get quick changes at lv. 5, 9, 13, 17, and 19. Now we could make all of them increase uses/day, giving you a total of maybe 6/day at 19 (you skip one step from 13 to 17). Then give the player an additional ability at somewhere near the mid-levels that allows the player to expend two uses to shrink it down to a free action? Is this a good compromise? I'm not the best at this whole balance thing...

Ultimatum479
2007-01-12, 12:29 AM
Didn't think of that, two uses to make it a free action. Good idea. I second that.

elliott20
2007-01-12, 01:26 PM
I actually don't think it's really all that overpowered. Don't forget, this fighter is switching between feats, meaning he still can only use the feats that are available within one stance. This also doesn't take care of the fundamental problem that fighters have against magic casters, the spells with an all or nothing save or simply just spells that do ridiculous amounts of damage.

Personally, if you ask me, I think the stance idea is pretty cool, but I think if you really want to give fighters a better chance (or better yet, all combat classes), it would be worth more to create more feats that extends off of the fighter feat trees.

Ultimatum479
2007-01-12, 05:05 PM
This stance fighter actually _does_ help quite a bit against spellcasters. You can have a couple anti-caster stances, such as one which has all the saving throw bonus feats (Lightning Reflexes, Iron Will and whatever the Fortitude one is), or one which is great at grappling so you can pin the wizard and stop him from casting virtually all of his spells.

Not that it's necessarily good against spellcasters, but I like the idea of a last-resort Unstoppable or Undying stance...in which every feat is Toughness. ^_^

Yakk
2007-01-13, 08:44 AM
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#fighterBonusFeats

Toughness is not a fighter bonus feat.

In general, Fighter Bonus Feats are ways of Fighting using weapons and/or fists. They are techniques, not features of your character.

Ultimatum479
2007-01-13, 09:36 AM
...Oh, yeah. I completely forgot this restricted all the stances to only Fighter Bonus Feats. Hm. You know, that really alters my earlier perception...I dunno how overpowered this is anymore. Maybe not at all. Thanks for pointing that out.

Obergnom
2007-02-12, 06:46 AM
wow, I really like this.

Have you done any playtesting?

I think though, 3 or 4 Stances might be enough, and I would remove the change only one feat when getting a new one stuff. Makes building a character to complicated. (How do I have to start this chain to allow me later to get another good one?)

thus I would say start with one stance, get 2 or 3 more, those may include any feat you want.

The quick stance changes I am not sure about, I would prefere to make all stance changes move actions or make it an x per encounter as free actions. Maybe I would go as far as allowing stance changes as swift action. All of them.

Thats how I would like to see this class... the players has a combat sheet which has actually 3-4 versions of his character on it, and he quickly changes stances to react to a given situation. Thats what I think a fighter should be, the most versatile fighing man.

Yakk
2007-02-12, 11:42 AM
wow, I really like this.

Have you done any playtesting?

I think though, 3 or 4 Stances might be enough, and I would remove the change only one feat when getting a new one stuff. Makes building a character to complicated. (How do I have to start this chain to allow me later to get another good one?)

I was careful -- by the time you get a new stance, your last new stance can be completely different than an existing stance.

Basically, when you first get a new stance, it is only slightly different. Every level it gets more and more different, until it can be completely unrelated.


thus I would say start with one stance, get 2 or 3 more, those may include any feat you want.

I like the idea of starting with 2 stances as a Fighter -- this makes your choice to be a Fighter special -- you can do something that nobody else can.


The quick stance changes I am not sure about, I would prefere to make all stance changes move actions or make it an x per encounter as free actions. Maybe I would go as far as allowing stance changes as swift action. All of them.

If there isn't a cost to changing stances, then this just means "you have an unlimited number of feats! Hoorah!". A stance change as a standard action means that which stance you are in has to be determined with care, and you should only change stances when you absolutely must.

If you could do it as cheaply as a move or swift action, people would build chain-stance cheese, with each stance specialized and designed to feed off the next. This decreases fighter breadth and increases fighter power in the optimized case more.

The goal is you can build a fighter who knows how to use a sword to fight hordes of opponents, knows how to grapple when unarmed, knows how to shoot a bow, and has a dueling stance to fight off tough single opponents.

The rare swift stance changes give the fighter the ability, in a boss fight, to throw a monkey wrench into the works, and give some benefit for going nearly-all-fighter (the 1/battle one at high levels).


Thats how I would like to see this class... the players has a combat sheet which has actually 3-4 versions of his character on it, and he quickly changes stances to react to a given situation. Thats what I think a fighter should be, the most versatile fighing man.

Sadly, that wouldn't happen -- the min/maxing fighter would build stance chains -- stances min/maxed to go one after another.

I can't see how to avoid that problem without making changing stances expensive.

As an aside, here is a previous cheesier version of the above changes:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=30577
it is far more complex, adds more power, and isn't nearly as tight as this version.

Obergnom
2007-02-12, 12:09 PM
ah, okay. But could you give me some examples of stance cheese? I'm planing on using this class in a core heavy campaing, and at the moment it is hard to come up with one... at least, for me.

Yakk
2007-02-12, 04:07 PM
If switching stances is free, then any feat that gives you a bonus to a particular move (improved trip, improved sunder, improved disarm, etc) can be swapped into for that attack only.

Ie, improved trip, change stance, improved disarm with the bonus attack.

Or doing a charge with power attack, then changing stance to a heavy-defensive feat build before the opponent can attack.

Archery builds become no-brainers -- you can drop your bow and draw your weapons with next to no cost.

If you can change stances at will, why not just give the fighter all of the feats at once? There are very few situations where you are using more than 11 fighter bonus feats in the same attack.

Now, you can do this under my Stance fighter once you are L 5, but you use up valueable switch stance changes.

Daracaex
2007-02-12, 06:59 PM
I kind of forgot about this thread... Now that I come back to it, the 1 quick change/battle thing doesn't actually seem too overpowered, depending on how long your battles take. After all, the Tome of Battle's martial adepts regain all of their maneuvers after every battle.

As a martial artist, I know from experience that it is hard to change your style of fighting quickly in the middle of melee. I have to take a step back and regain my composure before adopting a more passive or agressive stance. It's difficult and can get you mixed up if you try to suddenly change your style of fighting instantly.

Daracaex
2007-02-19, 10:42 AM
*bump* Don't let this die!

TO_Incognito
2007-02-19, 09:02 PM
I'd love to play a stance Fighter. How can Barbarians and Paladins be improved to compete in a game with stance Fighters?

Yakk
2007-02-19, 10:02 PM
Rangers... There are lots of things one can do with rangers.

You could make their favoured enemy more flexible (maybe a standard action and a Ranger-level-check vs target's CR to gain the favoured enemy damage bonus).

You could give them more than one Ranger Combat Style.

You could grant them spellcasting from the get-go.

You could beef up their animal companion to full Druid strength.

...

Most of those are power upgrades more than flexibility upgrades.

cferejohn
2007-02-19, 11:35 PM
This stance fighter actually _does_ help quite a bit against spellcasters. You can have a couple anti-caster stances, such as one which has all the saving throw bonus feats (Lightning Reflexes, Iron Will and whatever the Fortitude one is), or one which is great at grappling so you can pin the wizard and stop him from casting virtually all of his spells.


I don't really see the point. I mean, a fighter with no feats invested in grappling at all can probably do this too. It's not like the attack of opportunity he's going to give up is likely to be a problem (and that's if the wizard even has a weapon out). The problem is that the fighter will never get to the wizard to grapple him, whatever feats he has.

Of course that's the general problem with many high level opponents (dragons, powerful demons/devils): it doesn't matter how powerful the attacks you give the fighter are; if those opponents are played with even moderate intelligence, the fighter won't ever get a shot at them (maybe single attacks on a flyby if he's lucky).

All that said, I really like the idea of getting to customize your own stances. I might try to somehow mush this together with Bears with Laser's fighter variant...