Heroes of the Storm: "Jim Raynor, Tyrael and Arthas walk into a bar.."

[Gandariel]

Blizzard just announced their latest game: Heroes of the Storm, a MOBA game featuring charachters from the major Blizzard franchises: StarCraft, Diablo and World of Warcraft.

It's not here yet, but we can already have a glimpse at some cool stuff via Youtube:

Just like every Blizzard game, the cinematic trailer for the game looks AMAZING (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ecv0bT9DEo)
Love that air duel, and all the characters look really cool!!

...And HERE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f_fAkO3WOSY) is a gameplay trailer :)

So, comments?

[Ailurus]

So, comments?

I'll be That Guy and get it out of my system.

Multiplayer focused (or (almost) entirely in this case)? Check
Online only? Another Check
Completely forgetting (or in this case, flat out ignoring) their setting stories? Check (and, yes, I know I'm nitpicking and virtually no one plays MOBAs for the story)
Capitalizing on past successes with a bigger push for the whole professional gaming direction? Check.

So, passes all of the checks for Blizzard's new approach with flying colors. Which means yet another Blizzard title goes in my "will not touch with a 10-ft pole" pile. I'll just stay over here waiting for Warcraft IV or a non-Esport focused SC2 to show up.

[huttj509]

Tyrael and Arthas walk into the bar. Jimmy was already there.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

I'll be That Guy and get it out of my system.

Multiplayer focused (or (almost) entirely in this case)? Check
Online only? Another Check
Completely forgetting (or in this case, flat out ignoring) their setting stories? Check (and, yes, I know I'm nitpicking and virtually no one plays MOBAs for the story)
Capitalizing on past successes with a bigger push for the whole professional gaming direction? Check.

Aren't the first two givens for any MOBA? I mean, yeah--at that point, it's just a matter of "if you don't like MOBAs, this game probably won't change your mind".

And the third is a given of any massive crossover game. I would never expect a crossover game to give anything beyond a paper-thin justification. Smash Brothers? Kingdom Hearts? Those backstories were excuses to see all these different characters in the same game.

Fourth one seems like a fair enough charge. I'll be keeping an eye on this to see if it does anything majorly differently from current MOBAs.

[Gandariel]

And frankly, what's wrong with professional gaming?

[CarpeGuitarrem]

Found a preview here (http://www.gamespot.com/articles/blizzard-explains-why-it-doesn-t-call-heroes-of-the-storm-a-moba/1100-6416084/); I like the sound of things so far. From what's described...


Speedy gameplay (around 20 minutes); I love the short span of Awesomenauts matches, so huge plus for me. (I appreciate a more involved LoL game, but I can't play nearly as much with the length of LoL matches.)
Focus on using the abilities you have, and on team-based leveling. Sounds like that takes a lot of the micromanagement out of things. Again, that fits my preferences very well. I don't like having to master lots of details in a video game.
Area and objective control is a lot more fluid. I love the way that Dominion mode is set up in LoL.
The focus on pitching it as a "hero brawler". Maybe it's a silly name change, but if it truly embodies their philosophy, that's something I like to see in a MOBA-style game.
It also feels like there's less of an emphasis on items and builds. That's the part of LoL that appeals to me the least--finding the right item combos.

[Weimann]

I'd not say I'm hyped, but I am intrigued. Warcraft and Diablo are two pillars of my childhood, and I'm conditioned to be at least attentive when they're talked about.

I like some of what I hear about it. Fast games is great; it means less commitment in a single game, and less at stake if you happen to get a bad group when solo queuing. The stream-lining of mechanics is also great. I particularly like that item builds and such will not be required reading.

On the flip side, I'm inherently sceptical against cross-overs. The less sense they try to make the better off they generally are, and this one isn't really trying for any kind of plot by the looks of it, but still. Also, in my mind, the three games are very dissonant in terms of atmosphere, and I wonder if they manage to retain that as well as, say, Smash Bros does.

This won't be out for some time yet. So far, I'm much more hyped about Hearthstone than this.

[Tengu_temp]

And frankly, what's wrong with professional gaming?

The moment it becomes about winning tournaments, it also stops being about fun.

[Mx.Silver]

I'm kind of surprised it took them this long to throw their hat in the ring, given that the MOBA genre was spawned from their games in the first place. Okay, admittedly this is Blizzard so maybe I'm not that surprised.

[iyaerP]

The moment it becomes about winning tournaments, it also stops being about fun.

Speak for yourself. That is demonstrably not a universal truth.

I had a BLAST watching the WCS grand finals on the blizzcon stream this weekend.

[The Glyphstone]

The moment it becomes about winning tournaments, it also stops being about fun.

That's like saying no one is allowed to have a fun poker night with their buddies because professional poker tournaments exist. I.E, silly nonsense.

[Psyren]

I'm kind of surprised it took them this long to throw their hat in the ring, given that the MOBA genre was spawned from their games in the first place. Okay, admittedly this is Blizzard so maybe I'm not that surprised.

Seriously, this. What in the 9 Hells were they waiting for, an invitation?

[Anteros]

A Warcraft MOBA already exists. It's called DOTA, and it's been around for like 10 years.

[Psyren]

A Warcraft MOBA already exists. It's called DOTA, and it's been around for like 10 years.

DotA is owned by Valve now, and doesn't use any of the Blizzard characters/IP. HotS could have been done years ago, though of course WoW was printing money all that time anyway and still is so I can see how they could've preferred focusing on that area.

[Hiro Protagonest]

HotS

...This is gonna get confusing.

[Thiyr]

...This is gonna get confusing.

Yea, took me a second to figure out why he was talking about starcraft suddenly. Even thinking about the long-form names, the two sound really similar.


Also, the preview points Carpe said? Sound really nice.

[Psyren]

...This is gonna get confusing.

Ha, I wasn't even thinking of Starcraft when I wrote that. Maybe HotSt and HotSw?

[deuterio12]

DotA is owned by Valve now, and doesn't use any of the Blizzard characters/IP. HotS could have been done years ago, though of course WoW was printing money all that time anyway and still is so I can see how they could've preferred focusing on that area.

10 years ago Blizzard was also designing Starcraft II and Diablo 3 and probably some other stuff. They usually take their time working on their games before they announce anything.

Then there's project titan, that's been kept under complete wraps except for the part where it was completely overhauled.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

...This is gonna get confusing.
Blizzard has the HotS for this acronym.

...okay, that was horrible.

[Thiyr]

Blizzard has the HotS for this acronym.

...okay, that was horrible.


Idunno, I think heat-puns are pretty Hot(S) right now.

I'll be here all night folks.

[Delusion]

They should be a fire themed character with heal-over-times.

So your Hot champ can use Hots in HotS.

[Psyren]

10 years ago Blizzard was also designing Starcraft II and Diablo 3 and probably some other stuff. They usually take their time working on their games before they announce anything.

Then there's project titan, that's been kept under complete wraps except for the part where it was completely overhauled.

I'm not at all saying they were sitting around on their laurels all that time; I'm just questioning the wisdom of the choice they made. LoL has more players than WoW now and I have no doubt it's raking in more lucre than Diablo 3 and Starcraft 2 did, perhaps even more than both of them combined. Mark my words, someone is kicking themselves over coming so late to the MOBA party.



I'll be here all night folks.

What did we do to deserve this pun-ishment?

[Thiyr]

They should be a fire themed character with heal-over-times.

So your Hot champ can use Hots in HotS.

One might almost say that character would be...

SuperHot(S) (http://superhotgame.com/)


http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a62/photohosting1234/Misc_memes_macros/csi_miami_yeaaaaaah.png



I know that didn't make sense. Don't judge me.

[Hiro Protagonest]

I wonder what special abilities Raynor has. He used the assault rifle in the trailer, so probably not penetrator shot. Maybe grenades?

Maybe they're also doing something like DotA 2, where some characters have more abilities than others.

[Reynard]

I wonder what special abilities Raynor has. He used the assault rifle in the trailer, so probably not penetrator shot. Maybe grenades?

Maybe they're also doing something like DotA 2, where some characters have more abilities than others.

Nope. Having heard some of how it works from people who got to play it at Blizzcon, each character has:

Three basic abilities, available from level 1 and auto-leveling with you (no skillpoints for them)
A special point gained every 3-4 levels to put into some bonus such as +50 Damage or percent-based health regen. This essentially replaces items.
A Ultimate gained at level 10, chosen from 2 per champ.

[dgnslyr]

^
Everyone technically has four skills in DotA, but some heroes get passive abilities as skills. Mr. I-have-one-active-spell Skeleton King has four abilities like everyone else, but when three of them passive effects, I don't think it would be wrong to say he has fewer skills than other champs.

------

Well, Jimmy's a battle leader, so I'm thinking abilities that strengthen his allies and impair his enemies. He's a strong fighter on his own, sure, but he's even scarier when leading the Raiders to victory.

Maybe a Warcry-type spell? Let out a morale-boosting shout and increase his allies' (himself inclusive) attack, defense, and/or health.

How about a debilitating grenade? Launch a bomb, and damage and slow/stun/disable enemies in a small area.

Marines in general are known for using stims, so a stimpack ability might make sense, especially if another one of his abilities gives him a way to restore health.

A Yamato cannon blast from the Hyperion would make sense as an ultimate, something that slows and deals damage in a large radius, with the strongest effect at the center.

Maybe a Siege Tank Salvo for his alternate ultimate, with more sustained damage and slows overall?

Or if we go in another direction entirely, a massive rallying cry would make sense for battle-leader Jimmy.

Heh, this is pretty fun.

[iyaerP]

I was told by a friend who watched the stream that Jimmy's ult is supposed to have the hyperion hover overhead wreaking house on everyone and everything in an area. Kinda like mass serpant ward from shadow shaman in dota meets kunkaa's ult I would imagine.


I also wouldn't mind seeing the penetrator as a one use cooldown nuke or line damage spell. That would be fun.

[Weimann]

I'm not big into StarCraft at all. What's the name of the woman with the cloaking suit and long-range rifle?

[GolemsVoice]

Nova, most likely. She's a Ghost, a special operative with psychic powers and a cloaking field.

[Ivellius]

I'm kind of surprised it took them this long to throw their hat in the ring, given that the MOBA genre was spawned from their games in the first place. Okay, admittedly this is Blizzard so maybe I'm not that surprised.

Yeah, watching these trailers has made me think, "I wish they'd done this three years ago because I want to play it." I'm so invested in League now the opportunity cost of changing is really high.

[GungHo]

The moment it becomes about winning tournaments, it also stops being about fun.

Then don't enter any tournaments.

[huttj509]

Nova, most likely. She's a Ghost, a special operative with psychic powers and a cloaking field.

Yeah, it's Nova.

Since her game (Starcraft: Ghost) was cancelled during production, after some info had been announced, she's probably not as recognizable to people unless they're big Starcraft fans, in which case she's possibly more recognizable BECAUSE her game was cancelled.

And heck, given the tendency of threads to pop up with "they ruined character X in the storyline" maybe it's better for her she only had a bit part in SC2 for characterization.

[Hiro Protagonest]

They still ruined her characterization with that trailer, though. :smalltongue:

[CarpeGuitarrem]

I see what you did there. :smallbiggrin:

Though apparently according to wikis and stuff she has a lot of backstory. I did the research when my friend pointed her out as a character he liked.

[GolemsVoice]

She has at least one book and features semi-prominently in the Starcraft II games as a recurring character.

[Hiro Protagonest]

I see what you did there. :smallbiggrin:
What?

Though apparently according to wikis and stuff she has a lot of backstory. I did the research when my friend pointed her out as a character he liked.


She has at least one book and features semi-prominently in the Starcraft II games as a recurring character.

Yeah this. I've only played the SCII campaigns and read a couple of short stories (neither of which had anything to do with Nova), and I know that her characterization is way different than what they showed in the cinematic trailer. She's a ruthless professional, and I doubt this is what she'd be like if she got her memory back.

Also, it's totally obvious that Raynor's team would win in that trailer. They have a paladin.

[deuterio12]

I'm not at all saying they were sitting around on their laurels all that time; I'm just questioning the wisdom of the choice they made. LoL has more players than WoW now and I have no doubt it's raking in more lucre than Diablo 3 and Starcraft 2 did, perhaps even more than both of them combined. Mark my words, someone is kicking themselves over coming so late to the MOBA party.


Eerr, whot? Diablo 3 and SC 2 are paid games. LoL is free to play. I highly doubt every last LoL player is spending 50 bucks on their accounts plus expansions (or 15 bucks per month in LoL for years in a row).

Besides, what was the last time Blizzard just jumps in the new bandwagon? Again, they take things slowly.

[Bucky]

Yeah, watching these trailers has made me think, "I wish they'd done this three years ago because I want to play it." I'm so invested in League now the opportunity cost of changing is really high.
I think you mean "sunk cost"?
The opportunity cost is not very high - you're not grinding League IP while you're playing Heroes. But if you are playing less League, that IP is less valuable.
The sunk cost of changing is high - if you permanently stop playing League, your previous IP-grinding is worthless. But your existing League account will still be there if you want to change back, so you haven't lost anything, you just value what you have differently.

So you should play Heroes if it's more fun with no investment than League with whatever you've sunk into it.

[Ivellius]

I think you mean "sunk cost"?
The opportunity cost is not very high - you're not grinding League IP while you're playing Heroes. But if you are playing less League, that IP is less valuable.
The sunk cost of changing is high - if you permanently stop playing League, your previous IP-grinding is worthless. But your existing League account will still be there if you want to change back, so you haven't lost anything, you just value what you have differently.

So you should play Heroes if it's more fun with no investment than League with whatever you've sunk into it.

I'm not a business person, so yeah, I did mean more of that in mixing up terminologies, but if you don't keep up with League you (seem to) fall behind. IP costs are rather high if you want to maintain a suitable champion roster. Also my ranking is fairly valuable to me, and it does decay if you don't play (though that can be maintained much more easily).

[Psyren]

Eerr, whot? Diablo 3 and SC 2 are paid games. LoL is free to play.

If you think the fact that F2P costs nothing to pick up has any detrimental effect on its profitability, I have a bridge to Elbonia to sell you.



Besides, what was the last time Blizzard just jumps in the new bandwagon? Again, they take things slowly.

I know, and that's not necessarily a good thing. LoL, Torchlight and other competitors might never have gotten any traction at all had there not been an unfulfilled demand sitting out there due to Blizzard's inertia.

[iyaerP]

If you think the fact that F2P costs nothing to pick up has any detrimental effect on its profitability, I have a bridge to Elbonia to sell you.

But at the same time, it isn't 15$/month from ten million people for almost a DECADE at this point.

[Psyren]

But at the same time, it isn't 15$/month from ten million people for almost a DECADE at this point.

I'm comparing LoL to SC2 and D3, not to WoW. Obviously WoW was the most profitable thing they could have made, I'm talking about second place.

[The Glyphstone]

Just running idle figures from boredom:

Diablo 3 sales: 14 million copies across all platforms as of November 2013.
Diablo 3 cost: $39.99 US.
Total D3 gross revenue, estimate: $560 million US.

Riot Points: $25 per 3500 points.
Total number of Riot Points sold to equal D3 revenue: 78.4 billion.

As of 2012, an estimated 32 million people were playing LoL.
To meet the Riot Point Threshold above, this would require each of them to buy 2450 Riot Points.

Median cost of a permanent Champion, assuming no sales: 617.5 RP.
Mean cost of a new Skin, assuming no sales: 1432.5 RP.

That's 2-3 permanent champions out of 116 and 1-4 skins out of 300+ per player to equal D3's gross revenue stream to date, which doesn't really seem like much to my untrained eye. So I wouldn't immediately deny the possibility of LoL being more profitable than D3.

[iyaerP]

D3 doesn't work as a point of comparison because of the real money AH and blizzard taking a skim off the top of that, and we have no possible way of knowing how much people spend or buy on it. SC2 would be a much more apt comparison if we want to look at that kind of numbers.

I would say that the biggest point of profit for MOBAs isn't how much they sell compared to how many copies D3 sells, it is that there is almost 0 developer investment in content generation compared to a real game. Once the initial maps are made and the game engine is done, the only content that they make is modeling a new hero or item every month or so. Hilariously low-effort compared to what blizz does to make the diablo expansion.

[Thiyr]

I would say that the biggest point of profit for MOBAs isn't how much they sell compared to how many copies D3 sells, it is that there is almost 0 developer investment in content generation compared to a real game. Once the initial maps are made and the game engine is done, the only content that they make is modeling a new hero or item every month or so. Hilariously low-effort compared to what blizz does to make the diablo expansion.

That seems...a little shortsighted. While I'm certain the degree of effort is significantly reduced, to say that there is no dev investment denies the effort it takes to introduce new concepts into an existing engine, tweaking all that to work in accord with the rest of the existing content, not to mention the design end of all that, with aesthetics, balance, and all that stuffs. Takes less effort than making a full-fledged expansion? Probably, but I wouldn't say it's _that_ easy. I'd say that its enough that a few months of releases could start becoming the equivalent to such an expansion given the depth of content both contain. Not to mention things like UI overhauls, systemic improvements, regular bugfixes/patches, etc., the latter one being shared by both but being something that starts growing in scale the more content that gets added in those micro-bursts for a MOBA compared to the (comprable) static amounts found in something like d3.

[gooddragon1]

2 things they need:
OMG mode - Pick your hero and then pick abilities from ANY hero even if they don't make sense. Especially if they don't make sense. (You're usually limited to a draft though so everyone doesn't pick the same abilities)
AND
Normal mode needs to have alternate "skill evolution" like diablo 2 in a way. What I mean is that your skill set gives you a choice between 3 options for each of your non-ult skills and ult skill so you are less predictable from the start. If true randomness is desired then a diablo 3 approach where you can switch out your skills as desired (but it's slow to do it outside of town to prevent rapid switching).