Tolkien Orcs in 3.X terms

[hymer]

Stating out canon creatures is of course tantamount to heresy, and were we to ever play with such creatures, our condemnation would be righteously pronounced. But, please, humour me. Apart from the name and the general oeuvre, D&D orcs have only so much in common with Orcs of Middle-earth. If we wanted to approach certain kinds of Orc in 3.X terms, how would you go about it? How would you stat out the smaller/lesser Orcs? The newer Uruks?
Feel free to pick out any other Tolkien creature and show us your thoughts.

[Abemad]

The first place I'd look is Rolemaster (or MERP, if you're into that;)), where you have them all:

Lesser Orcs are about as strong as men, with slightly more endurance, a little less tougher, and way worse mental stats.

Greater Orcs are a little better off. A little stronger than humans, more endurance, as tough as humans, and only slightly worse mental stats.

Half Orcs are the top dog, (best of both worlds i guess), being stronger, tougher, and almost the same mental stats as humans.

All of the orcs have resistance to poison, Lesser Orcs being worst at it, and Half Orcs best.

From there, you can modify humans, and voila!, you have your tolkien orcs

[Telonius]

It's not just that it's heresy to stat out canon creatures. Standard D&D just does a really poor job of modeling Middle Earth in general.

But, if I had to...

Medium size.* +4 Strength, +4 Con, -4 Int, -4 Cha, +4 racial bonus to Intimidate. Bonus Feat: Endurance. Proficient with all weapons and armor. Orcs are Dazzled whenever in areas of bright light. Special Ability: Scent. Always Lawful Evil.
Thrall to the Dark Lord: Orcs will follow the commands of Sauron (or one of his direct representatives, such as the Nazgul) without question, to the death, and cannot deliberately violate an order issued by him.
Abomination to Nature: No animal will willingly be "domesticated" by an Orc. Orcs cannot gain regular Animal Companions by any means, nor will any horse carry one. Only vermin or animals with the [Evil] subtype will associate with Orcs.
Ancestral Rage: Any Orc who sees (or smells) an Elf must make a DC 15 Will save, or fly into a Rage (see the Barbarian's Rage ability). The Rage lasts for a number of rounds equal to the (newly-enhanced) Constitution modifier, minimum 1.

*Type would usually go here, but Type really doesn't work particularly well with Tolkien "humanoids."

[A Tad Insane]

I would take telonius' thing, and maybe at some inate corruption, considering tolkien's orcs were extremely corrupted elves

[hymer]

@ Abemad: Thanks for replying.
It's curious that the Orcs of MERP are stronger than Men on average. I find no indication in the text of this. They are certainly more enduring than the average Man, but stronger? I don't see it. They're smaller than Men, and aren't said to be strong for their size, unlike Dwarves.

@ Telonius: Interesting take on it (still stronger than Men for some reason, as Abemad and MERP would have it). I suspect the [Evil] descriptor can be applied to animals via training or breeding (or some foul ritual) in that interpretation?
What gave you the idea for the Ancestral Rage quality?
Thanks for getting involved.

@ A Tad Insane: That origin idea gets thrown around a lot, but it's just one of several ideas of where Orcs came from. Tolkien never settled on any of them, which seems to suggest they were not good enough.
Thanks anyway.

[Spiryt]

Orcs are being all around described as smallish, crooked, and generally pathetic and miserable creatures.

Don't think that massive bonuses to Str and Con make any sense at all...

Endurance and similar things, allowing to survive and be dangerous in conditions hideous to all life is definitely way to go.

[Gwendol]

There are several breeds/variants of orcs described in LOTR:
Regular orcs are shorter than men, but can be very broad and with long arms (Grishnak is an example). Some are much smaller; the size of hobbits even and the goblins in the Misty mountain are certainly smaller, as are the Moria orcs (called maggots by the Uruk-Hai).
Then we have the Snaga (slaves), at least some of which have scent and seem to be fast runners (and a certain aptitude for moving on all fours). They are smaller than regular orcs.
Saruman's Uruk-Hai are as tall as men, and likely stronger.
Sauron's Uruk-Hai are also larger and stronger than most other breeds, but it's unclear what the difference is with Saruman's version.

It's possible and even likely Moria orcs are a kind of Snaga (=slave).

So, I'd stat Snaga and similar smaller orcs as Small humanoid.
-2 STR, +4 DEX, -2 INT, -X CHA (not sure what to put there, 4 maybe)
Light sensitivity, scent, speed 40'
Uncanny dodge + imp uncanny dodge: Snaga are never flatfooted and can't be flanked
Bonus feat: run
Weak willed: Snaga get -4 penalty to will saves

Mordor orc: Medium humanoid
+2 DEX, +2 CON, -2 INT, -2 CHA
Light sensitivity, speed 30'
Bonus feat: run
Weak willed: Mordor orcs get -2 penalty to will saves


Uruk-Hai (similar stats for Mordor or Isengard varieties): medium humanoid
+4 STR, +2 CON, -2 INT, -2 CHA
Speed 30', regardless of armor or encumbrance (see dwarves)
Bonus feat: run

[Gwendol]

Orcs are being all around described as smallish, crooked, and generally pathetic and miserable creatures.

Don't think that massive bonuses to Str and Con make any sense at all...

Endurance and similar things, allowing to survive and be dangerous in conditions hideous to all life is definitely way to go.

Good point about endurance, I though giving at least the larger variants a CON boost makes sense if they are to survive their regular hardships. I also consider giving them penalties on will saves. Except maybe the Uruk-Hai.

[Shining Wrath]

The original Orcs were Elves debased and corrupted by Morgoth.

Orc:Elf::Troll:Ent. Imagine putting one of Tolkien's trolls up against one of Tolkien's Ents; that's about how well an Orc should stack up to a Wood Elf.

So I would go with the base orc as (compared to a Tolkien human):
STR: -2
DEX: -2
CON: +4
INT: -4
WIS: -4
CHR: -4

Completely debased, hopeless creatures. The only stat that improves is CON because the weak ones don't survive. Remember Denethor's incredulous question of how Boromir could have fallen with only orcs to oppose him? One orc is no match for one man. In stand-up fights against humans, they die unless they come in a horde. Which is why Sauron was (a) recruiting humans to expand his army and (b) waiting to attack Minas Tirith until he had a huge army prepared. And why (c) Aragorn thought that provoking Sauron was good strategy.

The only thing they have going for them is that they breed like flies. I imagine that orc females are almost constantly pregnant and multiple births are common.

From there, you can imagine Sauron breeding specialist orcs for various purposes. When Saruman created the Uruks, he was not thinking original thoughts; he was, once again, imitating Sauron. So perturb the base orc as you wish for archers and trackers and shock troops and what have you, not to mention Saruman's Uruk-hai. It is entirely possible for a breed to be strictly superior to the base orc; maybe they just don't reproduce as quickly.

[elonin]

Which model of human is being used for the basic human from the PhB? The conversion models listed earlier make the assumption that there is only one type of human in the Tolkien world.

[Incanur]

Remember Denethor's incredulous question of how Boromir could have fallen with only orcs to oppose him? One orc is no match for one man. In stand-up fights against humans, they die unless they come in a horde.

:smallconfused: I don't see much evidence for this in the text. Denethor said the following to Pippin: "And how did you escape and he did not, so mighty a man as he as, and only orcs to withstand him?" That hardly shows that the average human outmatches the average orc, as Boromir was an exceptional specimen. Remember what Aragorn said after he examined the gash Sam received from killing his first orc: "Many have received worse than this in payment for the slaying of their first orc." That suggests a level of parity between men and orcs when it comes to violence. While human champions - exceptionally skilled warriors - could cut through many orcs, orc champions could likely do the same to humans. Uglúk's band slew three Riders of Rohan between Éomer - another champion - dismounted to fight Uglúk sword to sword. In Moria, an orc chieftain doged Aragorn's sword bow and knocked Boromir aside in order to strike Frodo. He probably would have been a match for Boromir one on one.

[Telonius]

@ Telonius: Interesting take on it (still stronger than Men for some reason, as Abemad and MERP would have it). I suspect the [Evil] descriptor can be applied to animals via training or breeding (or some foul ritual) in that interpretation?
What gave you the idea for the Ancestral Rage quality?
Thanks for getting involved.



For the [Evil] tag, I was thinking more along the lines of Warg mounts, or something like Saruman's crow spies or the spiders of Mirkwood (or other descendants of Ungoliant). Giving an animal (or anything else) an [Evil] tag is not something you'd undertake lightly in Tolkien's world. It's not just about a one-time nasty ritual or even a breeding program. It's messing with the essence of the thing and corrupting it completely. The closest model D&D has to it would be something like an Epic Truenamer (imagining that such a thing didn't completely suck) doing a number on the target's True Name. To give some context, it took Sauron's boss centuries of torture to warp the Elves enough that they became Orcs.

I didn't want to give the orcs something like a racial bonus on attack rolls, because they've been warring against more or less everybody for thousands of years. But they do particularly hate elves. I got the idea for Ancestral Rage from the scene in The Hobbit (the book version) where Thorin & Co. were captured by the goblins in Moria. Here you have a bunch of Dwarves (who have also been warring with the orcs for centuries) captured and brought before the Great Goblin himself. He's pretty calm and collected. But pull out an elvish blade? He charges for Thorin, mouth open, ready to bite off his head in one snap.

I would put both Elves and Orcs as stronger than typical humans. (Aragorn and Boromir are not typical humans). Elves, particularly, would probably have bonuses to each ability score, with the possible exception of Intelligence. Orcs, as corrupted Elves, would probably be a bit stronger than Elves, but with a far, far lower charisma and Intelligence. I don't think their Wisdom would be much affected - they have a natural cunning, and don't have any problem perceiving things and tracking.

[Incanur]

What's the evidence for orcs being stronger than men? Uruk-hai, maybe. The smaller breeds don't seem terribly strong than Hobbits, if at all.

[A Tad Insane]

I would put both Elves and Orcs as stronger than typical humans. (Aragorn and Boromir are not typical humans). Elves, particularly, would probably have bonuses to each ability score, with the possible exception of Intelligence. Orcs, as corrupted Elves, would probably be a bit stronger than Elves, but with a far, far lower charisma and Intelligence. I don't think their Wisdom would be much affected - they have a natural cunning, and don't have any problem perceiving things and tracking.
I would argue against that. Remember, elves have civilians and non-combatants who have no exceptional modifiers. But when confronted by extreme amounts of snow on the misty mountains, Boromir's and Aragon's answer was to plow straight through it with there manly men physics, while Legolas just jump on the snow, implying that he didn't have the strength and/or constitution of the two me, even though he was extremely fit even by elven standers.

[Ramza00]

Aragorn and Boromir as heroic characters that are definitely not normals, would effectively be humans who scored a 32 point buy.
Normal humans would be the non elite array which is point buy 15.
The elite array would be point buy 25.

You should not be comparing normal humans to normal orcs and then use Aragorn and Boromir as measuring sticks.

[TuggyNE]

Uglúk's band slew three Riders of Rohan between Éomer - another champion - dismounted to fight Uglúk sword to sword.

More accurately, Uglúk's band of nearly a hundred unusually tough orcs to start with slew three Riders after the Riders had slain several dozen of them before those same Riders picked them apart and slew every last one with only a dozen more losses. So it's clear that orcs are not really a match in straight-up combat for skilled humans, even those with little or no Edain ancestry.

[ShurikVch]

I suggest to re-fluff OA Bakemono. Small race without Str penalty, but really stupid and with innate corruption.


More accurately, Uglúk's band of nearly a hundred unusually tough orcs to start with slew three Riders after the Riders had slain several dozen of them before those same Riders picked them apart and slew every last one with only a dozen more losses. So it's clear that orcs are not really a match in straight-up combat for skilled humans, even those with little or no Edain ancestry. Were Riders mounted or not? Because mounted warriors can be OP. During the Hundred Years' War was incident: 8 English knights meet 7 French ones. English knights all were unmounted, French have one mounted. All English knights were taken prisoners without any losses on French side.

[Gwendol]

OA Bakemono are strange: their natural attacks don't match the damage of their size (they do more damage).

Regular orcs are pitiful and weak. They need great numbers to be efficient, with exception of Uruks or advanced orcs who seem to be a match for humans.

[hymer]

@ Shining Wrath: Thanks for a thorough reply. Let me first just put some myths to rest:


The original Orcs were Elves debased and corrupted by Morgoth.

This is one of several possibilities Tolkien thought of for the origin of Orcs. In the end, he liked none of them well enough to establish it as correct.


Orc:Elf::Troll:Ent. Imagine putting one of Tolkien's trolls up against one of Tolkien's Ents; that's about how well an Orc should stack up to a Wood Elf.

Treebeard certainly thought that Trolls were made in mockery of Ents, but he's not the most reliable of sources. Tolkien decided on Trolls as on Orcs that he just didn't know where they came from.


When Saruman created the Uruks, he was not thinking original thoughts; he was, once again, imitating Sauron.

Saruman did not breed the Uruk-hai. They came out of Mordor, and Saruman took them into his service (though Sauron kept most of them for himself). Saruman did do something to Orcs, speculated by characters to be crossing them somehow with Men to make half-orcs and goblin-men, but their exact nature remains a mystery.

Aside from those common misconceptions, a very interesting reply which sparked debate. Thank you!

@ Telonius: But what about the horses of the Nine? I'm sure they must have been able to stand Orcs, as they were used as mounts in battles with Minas Tirith. Possibly they were (partly) bred and kept by Orcs.
The Great Goblin's reaction is to the sword, which is legendary. If all his underlings had the same quality, wouldn't almost everyone have thrown themselves on Thorin just then, rather than the one with supposedly the best saves?

@ ShurikVch & TuggyNE: I hold with Tuggy in this regard. I don't recall any cases where Orc forces seemed superior to anyone else, except by sheer numbers and determination (the latter much helped by the will of mighty evil beings). No doubt the Orcs were in more trouble due to the Rohirrim being mounted, but is it so hard to imagine a similar case where the Orcs were cut off by Gondorian troops and annihilated? (Forget the movies in this regard; the Gondorians suffer humiliating defeats all the time.) In all major battles, the Orcs are vastly superior in number, and yet they lose at least as much as they win. When they do win, there's usually Balrogs, Dragons or a Nazgûl with them.

@ Bakemono: Doesn't ring any bells. Where can I find them?

[LordBiscuit]

They were mounted. Which makes a huge difference. Hence the Riders slaying a huge portion of orcs in a onesided battle isn't unlikely. We have seen several times in the books/movies that a charvary charge does a devistating amount of damage. These are the riders who would later completely turn the tide of the battle of Helms Deep.

It just shows that the riders of Rohan when fighting on their terms is considerably better then Orcs. Probably a more accurate comparsion would be the battle of helms deep itself, and to be honest they seem more or less equilent only there was a lot more orcs then there were defenders.

Aside from the half breads, I would probably just say they are roughly equilent with a slightly higher con score. Average Strength and dex (because stats-buy will purpose them for a given role), and terrible (-6 even) int and cha. And give gigantic + modifiers to imtimidate and will saves as long as Sauron lives.

[hymer]

@ LordBiscuit: Pretty harsh penalty to int and cha you suggest. :smallsmile: How do you account for that?

[Gwendol]

They were mounted. Which makes a huge difference. Hence the Riders slaying a huge portion of orcs in a onesided battle isn't unlikely. We have seen several times in the books/movies that a charvary charge does a devistating amount of damage. These are the riders who would later completely turn the tide of the battle of Helms Deep.

It just shows that the riders of Rohan when fighting on their terms is considerably better then Orcs. Probably a more accurate comparsion would be the battle of helms deep itself, and to be honest they seem more or less equilent only there was a lot more orcs then there were defenders.

Aside from the half breads, I would probably just say they are roughly equilent with a slightly higher con score. Average Strength and dex (because stats-buy will purpose them for a given role), and terrible (-6 even) int and cha. And give gigantic + modifiers to imtimidate and will saves as long as Sauron lives.

Battle of the Hornburg: at least 10.000 orcs, half orcs, and uruk-hai enforced by Dunlendings against 2000 defenders? The reinforcements came in the form of Gandalf and 1000 riders. That's it.
They were outnumbered 3:1 and annihilated Saruman's forces (well, the Huorns did the annihilation one could argue), and forced the Dunlendings to unconditional surrender. These were elite forces compared to the horde Sauron unleashes later on Minas Tirith.

[Fitz10019]

... manly men physics, while Legolas just jump on the snow, implying that he didn't have the strength...

That doesn't make sense. It's like saying you drove to the bank because you didn't have the strength to walk to the bank. It's simply convenience. If you are able to drive, you are likely to make that choice. Likewise, given the ability to walk on snow, Legolas makes that more convenient choice.

That said, I wouldn't give elves a strength bonus over humans. I think elves' prowess comes largely from their culture and long lives.

[Shining Wrath]

That doesn't make sense. It's like saying you drove to the bank because you didn't have the strength to walk to the bank. It's simply convenience. If you are able to drive, you are likely to make that choice. Likewise, given the ability to walk on snow, Legolas makes that more convenient choice.

That said, I wouldn't give elves a strength bonus over humans. I think elves' prowess comes largely from their culture and long lives.

I'm with you on Legolas. He even mocks the men when he gets back. He walked atop the snow because he could, not because he had no ability to forge a path.

Which is not to say he was a match for Boromir or Aragorn - but he was probably stronger than, say, Butterbur.

By "Uruks" I meant Saruman's half-orcs, who I believe call themselves Uruk-hai.

[Gwendol]

I don't think the Uruk-Hai are half-orcs, or at least that's not clear. The "goblin-men" seem to have been separate from the Uruk's.

[hymer]

By "Uruks" I meant Saruman's half-orcs, who I believe call themselves Uruk-hai.


I don't think the Uruk-Hai are half-orcs, or at least that's not clear. The "goblin-men" seem to have been separate from the Uruk's.

'Uruk' means basically 'Orc', but had taken on a different meaning; it pointed to the larger variant of Orc that had recently begun appearing, as opposed to the more common and smaller Orcs. 'Uruk-hai' is directly translated as 'Orc-people', but as mentioned, shouldn't be directly translated.

In short: 'Uruk' means a big Orc. 'Uruk-hai' means all the big Orcs. This is something separate from half-orcs and goblin-men.

[hamishspence]

The "unafraid of sunlight" trait of Uruks, was what caused Treebeard to speculate that they are part-human.

[sumkidy]

@elonin

It immediately comes to mind that there is more than one type of human, such as those from Numenor (from whom Aragorn is descended, hence his being approximately 80 years old at the Black Gate).

[Incanur]

The Riders of Rohan were not merely average, but to the contrary some of the best - perhaps the absolute best - cavalry around at the time: "But the white fury of the Northmen burned the hotter, and more skilled was their knighthood with long spears and bitter. Fewer were they but they clove through the Southrons like a fire-bolt in a forest." They routed a significantly larger (x3) cavalry force with ease. The Riders of Rohan proved superior to all their human foes at the Battle of the Pelennor Fields. Therefore it's not so surprising that in their home turf they would crush Uruk-hai infantry. I don't see anything to indicate that the Uruk-hai were inferior to the various men Sauron had on his side. The Uruk-hai seemed at least as competent as the Dunlendings at Helm's Deep. They lost primarily in my interpretation because of the champions who opposed them - and especially because of Gandalf. Exceptional figures make all the difference in Tolkien's battles.

I would consider the smaller breeds of orcs somewhat inferior to humans in an open fight, but it's not an overwhelming disadvantage. The Uruk-hai and other larger breeds, on the other hand, seem equivalent to men.

[hamishspence]

There's been at least one attempt to stat the various LOTR monsters, including orcs, on this forum:

LOTR Monster Thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=162601&highlight=Boldog)

There's probably more- but this was the first I looked for.

[Yora]

Do all "High Numenorians" have elven blood, or is that just the royal family from Elros to Aragon? Though given the amount of generations between them, there would have been plenty of time for very large numbers of other branches eing created, and unless I am mistaken there was no more addition of elven blood after Elros (until Anarion, I think that was his name).

[hamishspence]

I think there was a rumour that Prince Imrahil of one of the various Gondor regions, was part-elven- descended from a wood elf, one of Nimrodel's court.

[LordBiscuit]

Battle of the Hornburg: at least 10.000 orcs, half orcs, and uruk-hai enforced by Dunlendings against 2000 defenders? The reinforcements came in the form of Gandalf and 1000 riders. That's it.
They were outnumbered 3:1 and annihilated Saruman's forces (well, the Huorns did the annihilation one could argue), and forced the Dunlendings to unconditional surrender. These were elite forces compared to the horde Sauron unleashes later on Minas Tirith.

In part yes. They did achieve victory and drove them off, but that was due to a multiude of factors.

Theres the basic fact that horse cavarvaly is more effective then a disorganised rabble on foot. But the riders of Rohan were also exceptional riders. Gandalf also timed their intervention well so that they would arrive when the sun first rose. This would put Orcs and goblins at a disadvantage, along with blinding them which prevented them from fighting as effectively. Not to mention they had already taken considerable losses from the siege.

The last factor is that they were not expecting any renforcement from anyone, the nearest avalible aid was from Minas Tirith and they were entirely preoccupied with Saurons army. So it was a combination of factors that disadvantaged them and even though they probably still outnumbered them even then, their moral had been completely shattered.

Absolutely everything had been arranged to disadvantage the orcs completely that victory was impossible. Needless to say the Ents sudden attack prevented Saramans forces from ever regaining the iniative, as if they hadn't attacked I doubt that they would have been able to effectively take Saramans Fortress.


Though I guess the point still stands that Helms deep isn't exactly a clear comparsion either. Since the defenders had the best fortress and the perfect counter offensive.

[ericp65]

It's all worked out already, if memory serves, in the rules for EA d20 :)

[ShurikVch]

@ Bakemono: Doesn't ring any bells. Where can I find them? From the Oriental Adventures
Bakemono http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/oa_gallery/Bakemono.jpg
Bakemonos are the “goblins” of the Shadowlands—small, powerfully muscled humanoids with the intelligence and the temperament of vicious attack dogs. The bulk of the race are much like hounds whose leashes are held by Shadowlands ogres. A few—those gifted with extraordinary intelligence—advance in levels (usually as warriors), use armor and weapons, and lead their kin as warlords.
The average bakemono is about 4 feet tall, 150 pounds, and rippling with powerful muscles. Bakemonos speak their own language. Those with exceptional intelligence also speak Rokugani (Common).
COMBAT
Most bakemono are too stupid to use weapons, and they really have little need for them. They leap into attack like bulldogs, clenching their jaws around anything they can catch, and raking with their filthy claws. They attack in packs, throwing themselves on their victims without fear or strategy.
Example bakemono have abilities: Str 14, Dex 10, Con 12, Int 3, Wis 11, Cha 7, Taint 3
Alignment: Always chaotic evil
Advancement: By character class
Challenge Rating: 1/2 (Warrior 1)
Level Adjustment: +0
and, apparently, oversizes natural weapons

[Shining Wrath]

The Riders of Rohan were not merely average, but to the contrary some of the best - perhaps the absolute best - cavalry around at the time: "But the white fury of the Northmen burned the hotter, and more skilled was their knighthood with long spears and bitter. Fewer were they but they clove through the Southrons like a fire-bolt in a forest." They routed a significantly larger (x3) cavalry force with ease. The Riders of Rohan proved superior to all their human foes at the Battle of the Pelennor Fields. Therefore it's not so surprising that in their home turf they would crush Uruk-hai infantry. I don't see anything to indicate that the Uruk-hai were inferior to the various men Sauron had on his side. The Uruk-hai seemed at least as competent as the Dunlendings at Helm's Deep. They lost primarily in my interpretation because of the champions who opposed them - and especially because of Gandalf. Exceptional figures make all the difference in Tolkien's battles.

I would consider the smaller breeds of orcs somewhat inferior to humans in an open fight, but it's not an overwhelming disadvantage. The Uruk-hai and other larger breeds, on the other hand, seem equivalent to men.

I think as fighters the smaller breeds of orcs are inferior, but the larger ones may be nearly human.

In the non-physical stats, I think the smaller orcs were absolutely inferior to humans. They invented weapons and not much else, and were notoriously easy to panic (poor saves against Fear = low will).

[hymer]

Do all "High Numenorians" have elven blood, or is that just the royal family from Elros to Aragon? Though given the amount of generations between them, there would have been plenty of time for very large numbers of other branches eing created, and unless I am mistaken there was no more addition of elven blood after Elros (until Anarion, I think that was his name).

Terms first: I think you may have heard/seen someone refer to 'high Númenórean blood'. This would refer to someone of 'high blood' (royal or at least noble blood) who was also Númenórean.
hamishspence is right about the rumour about the Princes of Dol Amroth. That this is seen as something special would indicate that if there is Elven blood in the descendants of old Númenor, it is in very small quantities. Even in Aragorn, there was very little Elven blood left.
It seems likely that there were indeed Númenóreans with no blood kinship with the Eldar, especially among the lower classes - unless the entire race could trace their lineage back to Elros, which seems unlikely.

@ ShurikVch: Thanks a bunch! I'd never heard of them.

@ ericp65: Pardon? Could you clarify?

@ hamishspence: Thanks for the link! I'll go look what they've come up with.
Edit: Well, a lot of misconceptions and flying by seat of pants in that thread. Still, it's more opinions.