PDA

View Full Version : Ring of Spell Storing dodge



Gamebird
2007-01-09, 05:41 PM
In a tabletop campaign I was in, one of the players came up with a dodge to get permanent effects onto people other than the wizard. Here was the process:

1. Have the party wizard learn Permanency.
2. Learn or buy the spells you want permanent (this assumes you're just using spells already acceptable for permanency, so no research needed).
3. Find a ring of major spell storing.
4. Rather than buying it, rent it for a week. (It's a very expensive item and you might not want to use up a ring slot on it.)
5. Have the wizard cast the necessary spells into the ring.
6. Put the ring on whoever wants the spells.
7. Have them use the Permanency and the other spell stored in the ring.

There are two complications to this:
A. A spell stored in a ring of spell storing is cast out as if as the minimum level for the spell. Which means all your spells come out as if cast by someone who is 9th level. The DM will probably argue that when Permanency lists a "Minimum caster level" for effects, that anything above 9th won't work through the ring. That still gives you Comprehend Languages and Detect Magic (though I sure as hell wouldn't spend 500 xp to get Read Magic).
B. The wizard still has to pay the xp, so get ready to bribe them big-time.

It would seem that you can get around complication A by casting a metamagicked version of Permanency into the ring, since the ring's description says that metamagicked spells take up space in the ring at their full level (implying that they're treated as being cast at that level). Heighten Spell seems appropriate. Just about anything else would work too. I'd suggest trying to rent the appropriate wand as well.

Would this work?

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2007-01-09, 06:12 PM
I do not see any reason why not. (nice work-around)

The question of who pays the xp-cost remains. I would houserule that the wearer of the ring pays it in this particular case regardless of the item description.

Errata
2007-01-09, 06:22 PM
The DM could have an enemy dispel you. Due to the ring, they would only have to be level 10 casters, regardless of the character's level. Your party member might not want to keep investing the XP.

Jack_Simth
2007-01-09, 06:24 PM
A couple of things...

1) RAW, the wizard casting Permanency into the ring pays the XP costs... so it bites the wizard doing this rather hard if he does it often. But not much more so than the Wizard who wisely uses Wish to give allies inherent bonuses.

2) You're trying to rent a rediculously portable piece of ludicrously valuable equipment. Realistically, not gonna happen. Theft is much too easy under such circumstances.

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2007-01-09, 06:32 PM
Ad 2) Depends on how well you not the wizard and your established reputation, but I agree that it would most likely be difficult.
However, you could always pay a security deposit equal to the full price.

P.s. The problem I have with having the wizard paying the xp cost is that he casts a spell that we do not know how much he has to pay for at the time of casting.
So we wait and have him pay when the ring is being used? What if he is dead?

mikeejimbo
2007-01-09, 06:38 PM
My DM also houserules that other people can pay XP costs if they're the ones getting the benefit. We had to get an ally resurrected using a miracle and he paid the experience points, but also got to come back as an ogre.

Jack_Simth
2007-01-09, 08:07 PM
Ad 2) Depends on how well you not the wizard and your established reputation, but I agree that it would most likely be difficult.
However, you could always pay a security deposit equal to the full price.

The other aspect, of course, is that in order for it to be available for rent, you have to have full DM complicity - in other words, full DM approval for the tactic. Hardly matters what the campaign is.


P.s. The problem I have with having the wizard paying the xp cost is that he casts a spell that we do not know how much he has to pay for at the time of casting.
So we wait and have him pay when the ring is being used? What if he is dead?
There's footnotes in the scroll tables on variable XP spells that are wonderful for extrapolating such things.

Wish: "Assumes no material component cost in excess of 10,000 gp and no XP cost in excess of 5,000 XP."
Limited Wish: "Assumes no material component in excess of 1,000 gp and no XP cost in excess of 300 XP."
Miracle: "Assumes powerful request but no expensive material components in excess of 100 gp and no additional XP cost." - it charges for the 5k xp.
Permanency: "Includes experience point cost up to 2,000 XP"

Scrolls for such things pick the amount of XP to pay at the time the scroll's made. If I recall correctly, extrapolating from similar cases is actually in the DMG as something that's supposed to be done. Extrapolating from scrolls, the Wizard picks an amount of XP to put into it at the time he casts it into the ring. Simple enough, no?

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2007-01-09, 08:19 PM
The other aspect, of course, is that in order for it to be available for rent, you have to have full DM complicity - in other words, full DM approval for the tactic. Hardly matters what the campaign is.

Of course, but you always need that.
In a world where you can actually buy this CL 17 item and have the money to pay the security deposit, any wizard who is willing to sell the item most certainly will also be willing to rent it to the PCs (assuming rationa behaviour).
Then there is the matter of the fee for such a service and we are back at the starting point; what does the DM think of this tactic? :smalltongue:



Extrapolating from scrolls, the Wizard picks an amount of XP to put into it at the time he casts it into the ring. Simple enough, no?


Perfect :smallsmile:

ken-do-nim
2007-01-09, 09:14 PM
Gee, that would be even more useful in my campaign, as I allow spells cast into a ring of spell storing to be cast out at the same power. Considering the item's expense, I feel the ruling is justified. But now...

Jack_Simth
2007-01-09, 09:43 PM
Of course, but you always need that.
In a world where you can actually buy this CL 17 item and have the money to pay the security deposit, any wizard who is willing to sell the item most certainly will also be willing to rent it to the PCs (assuming rationa behaviour).
Then there is the matter of the fee for such a service and we are back at the starting point; what does the DM think of this tactic? :smalltongue:

Sorry, I should explain better. I make a distinction between "permission" and "complicity".

Suppose you have a DM that, for one reason or another, sticks to RAW with a particular allowed sourcebook list, with a set of house rules that are explicitly declared before the session (and thereafter treated as RAW for the session). He doesn't suprise the players with house-rules on things that are reasonably clearly covered by RAW (so if you suprise him with a particular bit of as-written cheese, it will work that session; if it needs dealing with, the next session there will be a new house-rule handout). By most interpertations, this is a fair DM.

With no house-rules on Polymorph, and if it's in one of the permitted sourcebooks, under such a DM, you have permission to Polymorph into a War Troll.

If Polymorph has been house ruled so that need a piece of the critter before you can Polymorph someone into it, the DM has to present you with a War Troll (or a piece of one) before you can Polymorph into it. You need an amount of DM complicity.

It's the distinction between "lets you" and "helps you".

Am I making sense?

If the DM from the example above has no house rules preventing it, you need his complicity to pull the tactic off by renting the ring; some NPC has to have it available who's willing to deal with you. You only need his permission to pull it off by purchasing/forging/hiring the ring, as everything to do so is within the letter of existing rules.



Perfect :smallsmile:
Laid out like that, most DM's will agree it's a reasonable interpertation. It helps to random-walk the books at times.

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2007-01-10, 06:07 AM
Am I making sense?


Yes, I agree.
It depends a lot on the DM how they would handle surprises and whether you should run it by them prior to the session.
I don't think this is very cheesy and the price for pulling it off is not negligible



Laid out like that, most DM's will agree it's a reasonable interpertation. It helps to random-walk the books at times.


Indeed, I only wish I had done that instead of making a fool out of myself :smalltongue:

Gamebird
2007-01-10, 01:39 PM
By the point in time that the PCs are casting Permanency, they also have access to Teleport and Tongues, as well as pretty high Knowledge: Arcana (and probably Geography and Local too). Plus if the party includes a bard, they'll have an excellent bardic knowledge check. If they include a cleric, they have access to Commune.

If the item exists in the game world in a usable fashion, then determined PCs can find it. (this is one of my problems with running "high" level games of level 10-20)

For instance, the continent the PCs are on contains six kingdoms. With a Knowledge Geography of +15, it seems reasonable the PCs know this. If not, go hire a sage. Once armed with a list of continent names, turn to the cleric.

Cast Commune.
"Is there a ring of major spell storing in the kingdom of A that we could buy or rent?" It's a Yes/No question. Repeat for kingdoms B-F. Once you get a Yes, cast a second Commune and narrow it down to state/province/duchy. Teleport to the area in question. Use Tongues. Gather Information about what passes as a Wizard's Guild nearby. Talk to any local temples friendly with the party cleric's religion.

It's a 200,000 gp item. The odds are good that the area isn't overflowing with people or monsters wealthy enough to own it. Since the Commune question required the ring to be owned by someone willing to rent or sell it to the party, you're not going to be directed to one that's hidden in a horde or owned by something that will kill the party on sight.

If the owner sounds approachable, go negotiate with them. It might be necessary that the party hand the owner enough gear to equal the cost of the ring as collateral. I would suggest a third Commune right before the rental deal to make sure you're not being swindled. (Yes, I know the xp for Commune is adding up - but you may well consider this an acceptable cost.)

---------

On the xp front, if it seems a problem, wait until the cleric is 13th and can cast True Resurrection. Then send off the wizard to fight some tough monster solo while the rest of the party hangs out in a bar with all the wizard's irreplaceable gear. If the wizard wins - then coolness. He gets a lot of xp that no one else does and possibly some loot on the side. If he loses, POP! True Resurrect him back, no worse for wear and try again.

This gets the wizard all the "extra" xp he needs for the Permanency spells. Once a party has True Resurrection available, xp is never a problem again.

Were-Sandwich
2007-01-10, 02:12 PM
So, what does this trick actually circumvent, I don't understand.

NEO|Phyte
2007-01-10, 02:16 PM
So, what does this trick actually circumvent, I don't understand.

"You can make the following spells permanent in regard to yourself.
{table]Spell|Minimum Caster Level|XP Cost
Arcane sight (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/arcaneSight.htm)|11th|1,500 XP
Comprehend languages (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/comprehendLanguages.htm)|9th|500 XP
Darkvision| (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/darkvision.htm)10th|1,000 XP
Detect magic (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/detectMagic.htm)|9th|500 XP
Read magic (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/readMagic.htm)|9th|500 XP
See invisibility (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/seeInvisibility.htm)|10th|1,000 XP
Tongues (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/tongues.htm)|11th|1,500 XP[/table]"

Additionally,

" Spells cast on other creatures, objects, or locations (not on you) are vulnerable to dispel magic (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/dispelMagic.htm) as normal."

Gamebird
2007-01-10, 03:45 PM
It also depends greatly on how often your DM has foes cast Dispel Magic on you. For the games I've been in, it's not a common occurence. Keep in mind that an area of effect Dispel Magic starts with your highest caster level spell and checks to see if it dispels it. It continues checking against each lower caster level spell until it dispels ONE spell. Then it stops.

If you are unfortunate enough to be the sole target of a Dispel Magic, then you could lose multiple spell effects.


The thing is, you either face a lot of Dispel Magic or you don't.

If you face a lot of it, then take precautions: a Ring of Counterspelling (Dispel Magic) is a cheap protection. Spell Immunity is total protection. Make sure the person with the best defenses against Dispel Magic is also the most flashily augmented by magic (thus, the best target for it).

If you don't face a lot of Dispel Magic, then don't worry about it. You can always have the spells recast on you later.