Killing a level 17-18 mythic wizard in a VERY high op game (level 13-14)

[Tael]

Sorry, this might be a big wall of text

So our group is playing in an evil campaign (PF+3.5) that is EXTREMELY high-op, and we have run into what we think might be the endgame boss: A very well optimized 17-20th level Wizard/Initiate of the sevenfold veil with 9 tiers of mythic Archmage. And we got absolutely annihilated the first time we faced him, one party member was captured, the other two fled. Currently level 13 btw, and we are considered mythic, but only one path ability (not the first ones) sort of 1/2 of a mythic tier.

The current party is:
Me, a Telepath psion who is dominating a few 11-13th level casters (housed that psychic reformation takes day/level, so I can't improve their builds) I use a TON of extra-action stuff with a few tricks to raise my caster level to 20 and generally play somewhat supporting, preventing the other players from being killed with synchronicity and defensive powers, and dispelling enemies. I can nuke pretty hard too. I have a few tricks which I don't want to post on here that makes me very hard to kill and gives me ton of longevity.

T, a Necropolitan Diviner/Iot7fV 5 with Uncanny forethought and spellbook with every core spell and most non-core ones. Uses a bunch of Vile stuff, rides a Cauchemar nightmare. Big power combo is Borrowed Time + Quick Recovery to take an immediate action defense and still celerity with no downside every turn. +Uncanny forethought makes him crazy versatile. Spends way too many resources on not being instantly killed though, as he was almost killed like 4 times

W, a High Goblin Druid, uses Blightlord of Talontar + something else which I don't know to make make him and his animal companion plant type, uses DMM quicken (persist was banned) with a whole bunch of buffs to be our main source of damage and threat aggro. Recently made some kind of special armor thing that casts heal on him every 1d4 rounds. Regularly pumps out more than 500 damage in a round hitting ac 45-50.

We also have a few powerful allies and an army of ghosts, but we've been unable to come up with any way to do any kind of meaningful damage to this guy, especially without being killed ourselves. Especially since he also has two other mythic 9 allies, a level 20 gestalt warblade/SS and a 20 druid. We've beaten those 2 before, even together, but it was kind of lucky.

On the brightside we do know that he can't be a Iot7fV 7, and he hasn't optimized to the highest extent possible, so he is unlikely to Timestop+Maw of Chaos+Dimensional lock+solid fog.

So, noble giants, can you help us? Any tips or ideas?

[A Tad Insane]

Isn't there a quote by Tippy somewhere about how that's impossible? I feel like that's a thing

[Vaz]

Synchronicity PsiRef can change their builds in a single action.

Get a partyface character with Bind Vestige for Naberius and max Diplomacy. Get as many boosters as possible and make him Fanatical with a Swift Action. Buy as many Craft Contingent Celerities as possible with your wealth that is left after Diplomacy optimizing.

[Tael]

Synchronicity PsiRef can change their builds in a single action.

Get a partyface character with Bind Vestige for Naberius and max Diplomacy. Get as many boosters as possible and make him Fanatical with a Swift Action. Buy as many Craft Contingent Celerities as possible with your wealth that is left after Diplomacy optimizing.

Synchronicity shortening spell times not allowed. Neither is craft contingent spell.

The diplomacy route is interesting, but he runs around with mindblank on 24/7, and it's basically impossible to dispel it because of his 7 Initiate levels. AMF + diplomonster might work, but I would be willing to bet that his contingency is against an AMF, or just tinfoil hats.

[jokeaccount]

Did you get back your captured PC? If you're 2 guys and the 3rd one is his hostage that seems like a plot device to me and you shouldn't really think about how to kill him yet. Level-wise it seems way too early even with the high-optimization. Of he is also really well optimized then it is ground 0 for everyone and levels once again dictate what challenges you can tackle and what challenges you can't and you'll have to wait to get stronger.

[Vaz]

Mindblank has no protection against Diplomacy.

And my bad, not Synchronicity, but Linked Power; it removes XP cost as well.

[137beth]

Isn't there a quote by Tippy somewhere about how that's impossible? I feel like that's a thing
Yes, there is...it was referring to pure 3.5, but I highly doubt giving the 20th level wizard 9 mythic ranks will make it any easier.

Mindblank has no protection against Diplomacy.

And my bad, not Synchronicity, but Linked Power; it removes XP cost as well.

Which raises the question--
are you using the PF version of Mind Blank or the 3.5 version? 'cause the PF version is a heck of a lot easier to bypass.
Either way, a lot of mythic abilities are powerful but only work against nonmythic opponents (personally not a design choice I agree with, but that is neither here nor there), so unless you are mythic too, it is likely impossible to win unless you significantly out-optimize the wizard NPC. It could be that the DM doesn't intend for you to fight it now and expects you to beat it when you are level 17+...

[aeauseth]

The obvious solution to take down a spell caster is to use antimagic. However I see your party is mostly casters as well. So antimagic probably isn't your ticket.

As for contingency vs antimagic field (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/antimagicField.htm) (AMF), I believe Mage's Disjunction (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magesDisjunction.htm) is the only way to get rid of it, and Mage's Disjunction can't be contingent because contingency (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/contingency.htm) can only be used on spells 6th level or lower. The BBEG could simply cast Mage's Disjunction and would have a 20% chance of shutting down the AMF, but you could just cast AMF again the next round. Also Mage's Disjunction tends to destroy magic items. Pretty wicked if your DM goes down that road.

So if you can somehow keep the BBEG in the antimagic field, you should have at least some advantage.

[Flickerdart]

Mindblank has no protection against Diplomacy.
Fanatic is mind-affecting, so Mind Blank definitely takes the edge off.


The obvious solution to take down a spell caster is to use antimagic.
Lead cone says what?

[kardar233]

Consider using Spell Compendium's Energy Transformation Field in place of Antimagic Field; it doesn't trigger the tinfoil hat it still sucks away their spells.

It has an unfortunate casting time, but if you get a scroll of it your Psion could use Temporal Acceleration to cast it without giving the enemy a chance to react.

[Pickford]

Tael: If you're facing a proper Abjurer/IotSV, the DM didn't need to ban any DMM, he could just Dispel/Disjoin/Kaleidoscopic Doom/Reaving Dispel the character. Presto, the DMM character wasted 3+ feats. More to the point if this is an enemy with 9th level spells he could just use say, use greater invisibility to cast Imprisonment on you one by one. I mean...if the DM actually wanted to kill you. No fuss, no muss, and realistically nobody is going to ever recover you.

I'd lean towards plotdevice, it's virtually impossible to kill a full Abjurer/IotSV without your own Abjurer.

[anacalgion]

Step 1: Get a kobold.
Step 2: Gate in a sarruk.

In all seriousness though, mindrape + love's pain? I feel like there's no way for this fight to go down that's fair for both sides. Either you outsmart the DM and find some thing he's overlooked or he keeps thrashing you. Just my two cents.

[Pickford]

Step 1: Get a kobold.
Step 2: Gate in a sarruk.

In all seriousness though, mindrape + love's pain? I feel like there's no way for this fight to go down that's fair for both sides. Either you outsmart the DM and find some thing he's overlooked or he keeps thrashing you. Just my two cents.

They are level 13, there's no level 9 spells to be found.

[olentu]

They are level 13, there's no level 9 spells to be found.

Candle of invocation obviously.

[Psyren]

Synchronicity PsiRef can change their builds in a single action.

Get a partyface character with Bind Vestige for Naberius and max Diplomacy. Get as many boosters as possible and make him Fanatical with a Swift Action. Buy as many Craft Contingent Celerities as possible with your wealth that is left after Diplomacy optimizing.

Diplomancy doesn't work in PF. You can't shift more than 2 categories no matter how high your check, so the most you can do with a hostile target is make him Indifferent. You also can't get anyone to Fanatic.

[137beth]

Again, I strongly suspect this NPC is not meant to be defeated--he has, in addition to 20 class levels, 9 mythic ranks. If you believe Paizo's ECL system (giggle), that would make him ECL 24.5. Either way, a lot of mythic abilities basically say "nonmythic X abilities don't work against you", or "when using this against a nonmythic opponent, you win." From the OP, it sounds like they are still nonmythic AND 7 levels below the NPC wizard. Either they aren't suppose to fight him directly, or the GM really, really wants a TPK.


You also can't get anyone to Fanatic.
:smallconfused:
I know they changed the text to rule out moving a hostile creature to friendly right away, but AFAIK they never did anything to alter epic skill usage, as Paizo has more or less ignored stuff beyond level 10. Fanatic was from the ELH (3.0), so there is no more reason to expect it to be in a 3.5 game than there is to expect it to be in a PF game (unless there was some update to epic skills in 3.5 that I am not aware of).

[Pickford]

Candle of invocation obviously.

Wish sure, Mind Rape? Not so much.

[ryu]

Wish sure, Mind Rape? Not so much.

Better than that. He was describing pun-pun ascension requirements. You think mind rape the SPELL is funny? Have fun with mind rape the EX ability with no save, spell resistance, mind affecting tag, evil tag, wish removal clause, or any actual limits on the spell. Also three of these made up abilities per round as switching them is a free action. You can also just make a better version of the base ability as an EX freebie and attain literally endless power.

[137beth]

Better than that. He was describing pun-pun ascension requirements. You think mind rape the SPELL is funny? Have fun with mind rape the EX ability with no save, spell resistance, mind affecting tag, evil tag, wish removal clause, or any actual limits on the spell. Also three of these made up abilities per round as switching them is a free action. You can also just make a better version of the base ability as an EX freebie and attain literally endless power.

Somehow I doubt any game/GM who bans Persist would allow manipulate form/pun-pun:smalltongue:

[ryu]

Somehow I doubt any game/GM who bans Persist would allow manipulate form/pun-pun:smalltongue:

I know. I was just making the point.

[Tael]

Did you get back your captured PC? If you're 2 guys and the 3rd one is his hostage that seems like a plot device to me and you shouldn't really think about how to kill him yet. Level-wise it seems way too early even with the high-optimization. Of he is also really well optimized then it is ground 0 for everyone and levels once again dictate what challenges you can tackle and what challenges you can't and you'll have to wait to get stronger.

A PC died, a new one is here. I was able to essentially come back to life, but the other players read this forum, so I can't say how.

We have talked to the DM, we are definitely supposed to fight him now or soon. It has been confirmed that the campaign will NOT reach 15th level.

We have already bested the mythic 9 20 Swordsage//Warblade and the mythic 9 Druid. We couldn't stop the mythic rez though. Also a 20 SS//Psychic warrior with I think 6 mythic tiers and a level 20 wizard. Although we had surprise against the 20 wizard, in very good circumstances.


Yes, there is...it was referring to pure 3.5, but I highly doubt giving the 20th level wizard 9 mythic ranks will make it any easier.


Which raises the question--
are you using the PF version of Mind Blank or the 3.5 version? 'cause the PF version is a heck of a lot easier to bypass.
Either way, a lot of mythic abilities are powerful but only work against nonmythic opponents (personally not a design choice I agree with, but that is neither here nor there), so unless you are mythic too, it is likely impossible to win unless you significantly out-optimize the wizard NPC. It could be that the DM doesn't intend for you to fight it now and expects you to beat it when you are level 17+...
We are using PF mind blank, but that would make saves hard that it doesn't really matter, especially with the free mythic reroll.

Sorry should have mentioned, we have like 1/2 a mythic rank from some stuff we did. We are considered mythic creatures, and have a mythic path ability + feat, with 3 mythic power.



Tael: If you're facing a proper Abjurer/IotSV, the DM didn't need to ban any DMM, he could just Dispel/Disjoin/Kaleidoscopic Doom/Reaving Dispel the character. Presto, the DMM character wasted 3+ feats. More to the point if this is an enemy with 9th level spells he could just use say, use greater invisibility to cast Imprisonment on you one by one. I mean...if the DM actually wanted to kill you. No fuss, no muss, and realistically nobody is going to ever recover you.

I'd lean towards plotdevice, it's virtually impossible to kill a full Abjurer/IotSV without your own Abjurer.

Like I said before, Iot7fV caps out at level 6 in this world. But yes, reaving dispell and disjunction are huge threats to us. The banning DMM persist was more for every other fight in this campaign when the enemy could beat the druid's effective CL of 19.

Again, we are 100% supposed to fight him, probably along with the other 2. This is a REALLY high op game. It's basically the pinnacle of what we can do optimization-wise, but we have a bunch of houserules that ban stuff that just makes the game boring and too rocket-taggy.

[anacalgion]

Ok, just to clarify. The pun pun reference was a joke. Should have put it in blue text or something. As for the mind rape thing, you need a scroll. One scroll. It might not be easy to get, but it's not unheard of for 13th level characters to pick up an expensive item. Anyhow, it was just a thought. I'm no expert on taking down high level wizards with 13th level characters.

[Pickford]

Better than that. He was describing pun-pun ascension requirements. You think mind rape the SPELL is funny? Have fun with mind rape the EX ability with no save, spell resistance, mind affecting tag, evil tag, wish removal clause, or any actual limits on the spell. Also three of these made up abilities per round as switching them is a free action. You can also just make a better version of the base ability as an EX freebie and attain literally endless power.

And pun-pun can't clear the portfolio warning hurdle. By definition, pun-pun threatens deities, which means he's dead weeks before he can even try.

[olentu]

And pun-pun can't clear the portfolio warning hurdle. By definition, pun-pun threatens deities, which means he's dead weeks before he can even try.

Given that this one starts under the control of the player one merely needs to instruct the creation not to bother the deities to bypass the problem.

[Pickford]

Given that this one starts under the control of the player one merely needs to instruct the creation not to bother the deities to bypass the problem.

At best you're looking at a DM ruling, objectively.

[olentu]

At best you're looking at a DM ruling, objectively.

Why yes, since the deities are NPCs the DM could have them arbitrarily nuke the players plans at any time for any reason. But that applies to any plan.

[Pickford]

Tael:

Like I said before, Iot7fV caps out at level 6 in this world.

Actually what you said was:


On the brightside we do know that he can't be a Iot7fV 7,

Which sounds like you thought, by virtue of what you'd see, he could not, not that it was barred as a houserule.

Anyway, back to business...your best bet might be to raise an army of mooks/hire a dedicated Counterspeller. With enough (i.e. 1-2) mooks the Wizard will have burned his immediate action out relatively quickly and you can, potentially, exploit that.

i.e. Mook 1 moves in, he throws up a screen from IotSV, you dispel it, Mook 2 attacks while he can't do anything as a response.

Olentu: I actually meant DM ruling as to if the action does or doesn't represent a threat (to the Deities, or anyone who has Foresight up and has to teleport in to kill the pun-pun before it happens)

[olentu]

Olentu: I actually meant DM ruling as to if the action does or doesn't represent a threat (to the Deities, or anyone who has Foresight up and has to teleport in to kill the pun-pun before it happens)

If the DM is going to rule that an action, that will have no effect on the deities, their godly realms, their temples, and any of their worshipers barring those that might be the enemy wizard and his minions, is a threat to the deities then I see no reason why any other action that fits those parameters would not likewise result in the gods of the setting instantly killing the party.

And remember those are just actions that have the party specifically going out of their way not to bother the gods, their stuff, or their worshipers except for the enemy wizard and his minions. Imagine how quickly the party would suffer divine wrath if they ever did something like attacking the temple of an evil god, killing an enemy cleric, etc.

So, like I said, since the deities are NPCs the DM could have them arbitrarily nuke the players plans at any time for any reason. But that applies to any plan.

[Pickford]

If the DM is going to rule that an action, that will have no effect on the deities, their godly realms, their temples, and any of their worshipers barring those that might be the enemy wizard and his minions, is a threat to the deities then I see no reason why any other action that fits those parameters would not likewise result in the gods of the setting instantly killing the party.

And remember those are just actions that have the party specifically going out of their way not to bother the gods, their stuff, or their worshipers except for the enemy wizard and his minions. Imagine how quickly the party would suffer divine wrath if they ever did something like attacking the temple of an evil god, killing an enemy cleric, etc.

So, like I said, since the deities are NPCs the DM could have them arbitrarily nuke the players plans at any time for any reason. But that applies to any plan.

Killing a cleric, or even an entire temple doesn't represent an existential threat. Pun-Pun 'is' an existential threat.

[olentu]

Killing a cleric, or even an entire temple doesn't represent an existential threat. Pun-Pun 'is' an existential threat.

Hmm, a being that specifically goes out of its way not to bother the gods in any way is a threat to the gods. I don't know about you but I find that doing something threatening to someone generally counts as bothering that person.

[Pickford]

Hmm, a being that specifically goes out of its way not to bother the gods in any way is a threat to the gods. I don't know about you but I find that doing something threatening to someone generally counts as bothering that person.

Well, for one thing you can't get pun-pun without intense metagaming (that's the only way to know how to do the chain of events required), actively pursuing pun-pun means the character in question has end goals, those goals would be know, especially if they ran afoul of any deity, anywhere. That automatically triggers the portfolio sense and pun-pun dies. You can't just bluff your intentions, they exist or they don't and no one without the express intention of becoming a power (which means a massive threat, by default) would do this.

Therefore: Pun-pun attempts always alert someone, who will, for certain, kill the attempter.

[olentu]

Well, for one thing you can't get pun-pun without intense metagaming (that's the only way to know how to do the chain of events required), actively pursuing pun-pun means the character in question has end goals, those goals would be know, especially if they ran afoul of any deity, anywhere. That automatically triggers the portfolio sense and pun-pun dies. You can't just bluff your intentions, they exist or they don't and no one without the express intention of becoming a power (which means a massive threat, by default) would do this.

Therefore: Pun-pun attempts always alert someone, who will, for certain, kill the attempter.

Given that this one starts under the control of the player one merely needs to instruct the creation not to bother the deities to bypass the problem.

You can also just permanently kill it when you are done negating any problem with the continued existence of a dangerous creature.

[TuggyNE]

That automatically triggers the portfolio sense and pun-pun dies. You can't just bluff your intentions, they exist or they don't and no one without the express intention of becoming a power (which means a massive threat, by default) would do this.

Your logic here is a little odd, since it implies that anyone ascending to any kind of deific power at all triggers portfolio senses (quite possibly true) which inevitably lead to their destruction (demonstrably false by the simple existence of successful ascensions in most [all?] D&D settings).

You could perhaps try to argue that the auto-kill is only for Pun-Pun's chosen (i.e., Manipulate Form) version of infinite power, but why would that be the case, if they are not necessarily willing to use overwhelming force on lesser but still significant potential threats?

And, of course, there's the problem that portfolio sense is limited in time and scope; if a potential Pun-Pun has the specific plan of ascending and then waiting several years while doing nothing of real significance, such "oh no I'm about to be ganked" warnings would be of no avail anyway, even if Pun-Pun decided to pursue actions against some deity for some reason, which is not strictly guaranteed.

In fact, in this particular case it's almost guaranteed not to trigger such warnings, since, as olentu said, all you need is to be circumspect in your ambitions and everything's fine.

[Tael]

Ok, just to clarify. The pun pun reference was a joke. Should have put it in blue text or something. As for the mind rape thing, you need a scroll. One scroll. It might not be easy to get, but it's not unheard of for 13th level characters to pick up an expensive item. Anyhow, it was just a thought. I'm no expert on taking down high level wizards with 13th level characters.

Yeah I realized. No way in hell Sarrukhs exist, or basically anything else included in the pun-pun line.

Unfortunately on the scroll front I think this guy is one of the only 9th level casting arcane casters in existance, so it would be pretty hard to find one. But we could probably go on some kind of grand old quest to get a one-use mindrape item/scroll or something. That would at the very least massively restrict his movement, probably force him into fighting us on our terms.

[Pickford]

Your logic here is a little odd, since it implies that anyone ascending to any kind of deific power at all triggers portfolio senses (quite possibly true) which inevitably lead to their destruction (demonstrably false by the simple existence of successful ascensions in most [all?] D&D settings).

You could perhaps try to argue that the auto-kill is only for Pun-Pun's chosen (i.e., Manipulate Form) version of infinite power, but why would that be the case, if they are not necessarily willing to use overwhelming force on lesser but still significant potential threats?

And, of course, there's the problem that portfolio sense is limited in time and scope; if a potential Pun-Pun has the specific plan of ascending and then waiting several years while doing nothing of real significance, such "oh no I'm about to be ganked" warnings would be of no avail anyway, even if Pun-Pun decided to pursue actions against some deity for some reason, which is not strictly guaranteed.

In fact, in this particular case it's almost guaranteed not to trigger such warnings, since, as olentu said, all you need is to be circumspect in your ambitions and everything's fine.

well, I originally couched it in terms of Foresight (which is required to give the subject enough time to act). If the only time to defeat the arbitrarily powerful pun-pun is just prior to their ascension...then it must warn then (as the ability explicitly provides enough warning to do something about the danger).

At a certain point, the mere existence of something that 'could' be a threat 'is' a threat. (i.e. If Pun-Pun can will the universe out of existence), he must die. Ao, from wherever he is, wills the pun-pun out of being. (Rule 0) therefore, pun-pun cannot exist, mechanically.

[Piggy Knowles]

Dweomer of Transference with the casting time hacked down to a reasonable length via Uncanny Forethought can definitely take casters by surprise if they're not prepared.

Prepare lots of ways to break LoE/LoS - it's not a perfect solution, but it should delay any assault. Becoming ethereal is also a pretty strong defensive stance, as only force effects will be able to affect you, and it should even block things like Mindsight. However, it's terrible offensively. Still, that plus Mind Blank and Superior Invisibility can help you with an ambush. (Although if he's smart, he's acting in the surprise round anyhow via dire tortoise, has Foresight up, and knew you were coming from CoP spamming).

Your only real chance is to catch him unprepared and hit him with a Disjunction via items to break his buffstack. I'd definitely not go in except as Astrally Projected dummies (you DO have a cauchemar), just so as not to waste resources.

[Belial_the_Leveler]

@killing wizard:
1) Wish 500 tons of masonry stone over wizard's head by using the Wish safe option for 25.000 gp worth of objects.
2) After his Contingency: Teleport is expended, have someone cast Animate Object on the 20-ft cube of masonry stone and use a second Wish to get the now 500 ton creature over the wizard's head again.
3) With 3 characters, this can all be done in one round.
4) You do not need to be in combat with the wizard for this - you can be in another plane of existence and Wish will still get your animated stone from any point in any plane to any point in any other plane.
PS) The stone is thick enough that even an incorporeal wizard will be affected as it will be too thick to pass through.




@Pun-Pun:
1) Doesn't work in Pathfinder due to Polymorph changes.
2) Doesn't work outside Forgotten Realms since it's campaign-specific.
3) Doesn't get deific power by RAW; it can't boost ability scores beyond a sarukh's ability scores (which are low) and while it can grant any Supernatural/Extraordinary/Spell-like ability, it cannot add Cosmic or Divine abilities. Also, it doesn't say it can invent new abilities either.
4) It is a permanent effect, not instantaneous. Since no ongoing magical effect stacks with itself unless it specifically says so (and even untyped effects only stack with other effects, not themselves) the changes do not stack.
5) Any change is an ongoing, supernatural effect affecting a creature. Anyone hits you with antimagic and it's gone.
6) Greater Deities of Order don't like you attempting to play with the status quo in the Cosmos and the order of the universe; have a Hand of Death. Greater Deities of Evil don't like you attempting to become stronger than them, even if the attempt will fail; have a Hand of Death. You have now been destroyed, with no save or spell resistance, across planar boundaries and all barriers, eighteen weeks before you think of becoming Pun-Pun, with your soul in the hands of the deity responsible for the netherworld; none may return you to life via any means (even other deities) unless they ask permission first. And permission will be denied.

[Fable Wright]

Probably a stupid question, but what is the 'Borrowed Time' that T uses?

[olentu]

well, I originally couched it in terms of Foresight (which is required to give the subject enough time to act). If the only time to defeat the arbitrarily powerful pun-pun is just prior to their ascension...then it must warn then (as the ability explicitly provides enough warning to do something about the danger).

At a certain point, the mere existence of something that 'could' be a threat 'is' a threat. (i.e. If Pun-Pun can will the universe out of existence), he must die. Ao, from wherever he is, wills the pun-pun out of being. (Rule 0) therefore, pun-pun cannot exist, mechanically.

So, like I said, just kill your creature forever after it has accomplished the task and then things are fine. The existence of the creature being a threat is unimportant because it no longer exists. Ao, know that you will kill the creature when you are done because he knows the future, just as he knows the future in order to tell that you are going to create such a being.

[Belial_the_Leveler]

You missed the point where a greater power of Order will punish you for presuming to upset the balance of the universe and a greater power of evil will punish you for attempting to become more powerful than them.


Not that Pun-Pun can actually get infinite power by RAW; this has never worked.

[olentu]

You missed the point where a greater power of Order will punish you for presuming to upset the balance of the universe and a greater power of evil will punish you for attempting to become more powerful than them.


Not that Pun-Pun can actually get infinite power by RAW; this has never worked.

Yes yes, as I have already said, since the gods are NPCs the DM can have them ruin any plan at any random time for any reason. Even a plan as innocuous as creating a powerful minion, killing one wizard with that minion, and then destroying said minion forever could be subject to the DM's ability to ruin any plan on a whim.


Eh, unlimited power is unnecessary so there is no point arguing about it, merely enough power to destroy one enemy would suffice.