What level should ability modifier items open up

[Crake]

Ok, so recently I was working on crafting a +6 intelligence item, which I thought was completely fine, and I mentioned it in passing with my DM, who immediately noted his disagreement, saying that I could only craft ability modifier items if my level was 3x the modifier, so if I wanted to craft +6, I'd need to be level 18. At the moment I'm level 13, so the best I can get up to is +4. Now I made sure that he realised that this was a houserule, not really by the books, so we're both clear on that, and despite me not liking the rule, I'm living with it. But that opened up the question for me, what level should these items become commonplace, at least for primary ability scores? I've always thought that by 12-15ish, +6 items should be quite decently available, after all, they're only 36k, which at 12 isnt even half of your wealth by level, and at 15 is barely even a blip.

[Captnq]

As soon as your WBL reaches 4,000 gp, 16,000 gp and 36,000 gp respectively. It's called Wealth By LEVEL. Meaning, you can't ever own more then that at a given level. So regardless of when you can make it, you can simply go to any major city and buy it.


If you respect WBL, you are giving up quite a bit for that particular stat boost.

[bekeleven]

Also note that basically every scaling numerical magical buff has this clause except for ability enhancement items. Armor, Natural Armor, mighty fists, resist to saves, etc.

Given that MIC decided to group all of the scaling numerical bonus item effects into a category, I understand where he's coming from.

[Temotei]

They should be available when you have the gold to spare for them.

[Mystral]

They should always be available, only to costly or to highly protected to be available for characters of lower levels.

I'd say, Level 3-5 for +2, level 8-10 for +4 and level 13-15 for +6. But that's just an opinion.

[Jlerpy]

I'd say it's silly to let someone (ESPECIALLY a caster) have a single magic item that's worth more than about 15% of their wealth by level, as non-casters really need solid items in "the Big Six".
So, about level 16? Which still seems low to me. +6 is a lot.

[hymer]

+6 is a lot.

But you don't go from +0 to +6. You very likely already had +4 enhancement bonus before, so it's just another point. Hardly a major difference.

[Jlerpy]

But you don't go from +0 to +6. You very likely already had +4 enhancement bonus before, so it's just another point. Hardly a major difference.

+4 is also quite a lot.

[hymer]

You're supposed to have it. Where will melee be without their physical stat boosters? They need those constant bonuses to strength/dex and con, and a lot sooner than than level 6/12/18.

[Jlerpy]

You're supposed to have it. Where will melee be without their physical stat boosters? They need those constant bonuses to strength/dex and con, and a lot sooner than than level 6/12/18.

But they ALSO need powerful weapons, armour and other protective stuff.

[Hamste]

+4 is also quite a lot.

Not really it is two more on the dc and an extra 2nd, 3 rd and 6th level spell if you are wizard (starting with a 20). It is two more ac and 2 more on reflex saves if you gain dex. It's two more on will saves and the same bonus to spells for a cleric. It's two more damage, two more to hit and slightly more carrying capacity. It's two more on charisma checks and bonus spells if you go that route. The bonus to Con is actually ok as it is the only one that actually scales well at all.

Most of those (except the bonus level 6 spell) can be easily copied cheaper with other magic items. People just pay for the enhancement bonus because it stacks with their items well. The items aren't even really needed, Animal Adjectives are second level spells so a wand would have been easy to carry around for cheaper by the time they get to the point you described in the game. Of course it is nice to have the effect be continuous but in reality for people other than spell casters the stat bonuses are not actually that good.

[Jlerpy]

Not really it is two more on the dc and an extra 2nd, 3 rd and 6th level spell if you are wizard (starting with a 20). It is two more ac and 2 more on reflex saves if you gain dex. It's two more on will saves and the same bonus to spells for a cleric. It's two more damage, two more to hit and slightly more carrying capacity. It's two more on charisma checks and bonus spells if you go that route. The bonus to Con is actually ok as it is the only one that actually scales well at all.

Most of those (except the bonus level 6 spell) can be easily copied cheaper with other magic items. People just pay for the enhancement bonus because it stacks with their items well. The items aren't even really needed, Animal Adjectives are second level spells so a wand would have been easy to carry around for cheaper by the time they get to the point you described in the game. Of course it is nice to have the effect be continuous but in reality for people other than spell casters the stat bonuses are not actually that good.

And it's the "people other than spell casters" part that's the rub. Stat boosts are great for casters and they have less use for other kinds of items.

[Firechanter]

Well, there is the _guideline_ in the DMG that any one item should not be worth more than half your WBL. I think that's fair. 25% WBL is probably more typical in actual play, but somewhere between 25 and 50% for your primary magic item should be sound.
So it should definitely be _available_ at level 12. Whether you actually want to dump a 20K markup into a single +1 bonus at this point is of course up to you.

FWIW, in my games I typically assume the following:
- at level 4, you can get a single +1 ability item for your primary stat, so if you start out at, say, 18, you can bump it to 20 at level 4. This is the only odd-numbered ability enhancement you can get, though.
- at level 7-8 you should get a +2 item
- +4 item usually around level 10-11
- +6 item at level 13-14.
It's certainly unnecessary to make the players wait longer than level 14.
Again, they may get the upgrade sooner, but in my experience it cuts into your WBL so deeply that it's usually not worth it; better to branch out a little and get more utility gear.

[Melcar]

When I DM, I try to keep magic items at a minimum, because it loses a lot if the awe or specialness to it, if high + items are too common. I usually go by something like 8/16/24 for +2/+4/+6...

I know that a level 9 PC would have starting gold enough to buy a +6, but that just seems stupid to me... What crazy items should a level 30 have if a level 9 had +6. Level 18= +12, level 27+18... You get the idea.

So by keeping magic gear low, I try to keep them more interesting and more valuable at the same time.

I have to add, that I also keep gold a lot lover than what the PHB/DMG perscribes. I feel that it makes for a more interesting game, if the players are not filthy rich right from the get go!

[Jlerpy]

Not really it is two more on the dc and an extra 2nd, 3 rd and 6th level spell if you are wizard (starting with a 20). It is two more ac and 2 more on reflex saves if you gain dex. It's two more on will saves and the same bonus to spells for a cleric. It's two more damage, two more to hit and slightly more carrying capacity. It's two more on charisma checks and bonus spells if you go that route. The bonus to Con is actually ok as it is the only one that actually scales well at all.

I will back up a little, as I've just realised that we're talking normal D&D stat bonuses (where you only get a bonus every even number), rather than actual stat bonuses.

+6 is still significant, but +4 is less so.

[Spore]

A maximum of half the character wealth should be spent on one item. I am not sure if that rule exists in D&D but it does in Pathfinder. It's just not smart to spend that much money on +1 to spell DCs.

Well, it's smart, but not if it is the only thing your money does for you.

[ericgrau]

This is an actual rule for weapon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/creatingMagicItems.htm#creatingMagicWeapons) and armor enhancement bonuses. I don't think it is for ability score bonuses and I think your DM is just getting the rules mixed up there. Searching for the word "three" I only found it under weapons, armor and the ring of three wishes example item. Let him know and I think you can get this whole thing cleared up.

That said, another +1 to your save DCs is overrated when most of the good spells don't even have saves. I'd be crafting a staff if I were you for moar spells; especially spammable and/or situational ones like wall of force (though I'd also prepare this one), divinations, force cage (often need 0 to save money, often need 4 to just plain win), stoneskin (since you need to wait for a 1-2 hour mission to use it at all and then you tag the whole party), greater teleport (never know how many you'll need), etc. Don't worry about charges never in my life have I had them run out. Ditto on material component costs; even if spamming a few will be plenty for the brief challenges that make up D&D.

But since you already have craft wondrous item anyway I'd make some +6 strength items for the melee; they'll get a lot more mileage out of it. And +4 of various other stats for the whole party. Maybe some flight providing magic items or whatever other wondrous utility stuff they need. Come to think of it, dust of disappearance is a pretty awesomesauce 1750 gp "we win" button for tough fights. In case your DM is rules fuzzy give him this so the monsters at least have half a chance: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#invisibility

[Jgosse]

People always say I don't want magic items to lose there wonder. Then get creative and make them spectacular. Instead of handing out cookie cutter magic items customize magic Items.

[Psyren]

Special or not, the game just plain expects players to have magic items past a certain point; that is what WBL means, because nothing else in the game costs that much unless you're talking about buying your own village or something. If you withhold appropriate wealth from them, you need to adjust the encounters to reflect this, because they players end up undergeared for CR-appropriate challenges.

I do however agree with those who are limiting it to no more than 25%, and certainly no more than 50%, in any one item.

[Sith_Happens]

I know that a level 9 PC would have starting gold enough to buy a +6, but that just seems stupid to me... What crazy items should a level 30 have if a level 9 had +6. Level 18= +12, level 27+18... You get the idea.

A 30th level character fights Balors in bulk, I should hope they have more than a +5 sword and some shiny boots.

[OldTrees1]

Choose the fraction of your wealth that you are willing & allowed to sacrifice to improve the stat and consult the table below.

Ability Enhancers (Enhancement bonus)
At 10% of Character Wealth by level you get
+2 at 10th(PC)/14th(NPC)
+4 at 15th(PC)/19th(NPC)
+6 at 18th(PC)/Epic(NPC)

At 25% of Character Wealth by level you get
+2 at 7th(PC)/10th(NPC)
+4 at 11th(PC)/16th(NPC)
+6 at 14th(PC)/18th(NPC)

At 33% of Character Wealth by level you get
+2 at 6th(PC)/9th(NPC)
+4 at 10th(PC)/16th(NPC)
+6 at 13th(PC)/17th(NPC)

At 50% of Character Wealth by level you get
+2 at 5th(PC)/8th(NPC)
+4 at 9th(PC)/13th(NPC)
+6 at 12th(PC)/16th(NPC)

Saves (Resistance bonus)
At 10% of Character Wealth by level you get
+1 at 6th(PC)/9th(NPC)
+2 at 10th(PC)/14th(NPC)
+3 at 13th(PC)/17th(NPC)
+4 at 15th(PC)/19th(NPC)
+5 at 16th(PC)/Epic(NPC)

At 25% of Character Wealth by level you get
+1 at 4th(PC)/5th(NPC)
+2 at 7th(PC)/10th(NPC)
+3 at 9th(PC)/14th(NPC)
+4 at 11th(PC)/16th(NPC)
+5 at 13th(PC)/17th(NPC)

At 33% of Character Wealth by level you get
+1 at 4th(PC)/4th(NPC)
+2 at 5th(PC)/9th(NPC)
+3 at 8th(PC)/12th(NPC)
+4 at 10th(PC)/14th(NPC)
+5 at 12th(PC)/16th(NPC)

At 50% of Character Wealth by level you get
+1 at 3rd(PC)/2nd(NPC)
+2 at 5th(PC)/8th(NPC)
+3 at 7th(PC)/11th(NPC)
+4 at 9th(PC)/13th(NPC)
+5 at 11th(PC)/15th(NPC)

I consider 33%-50% to be the cap for the character's primary item. (Not always an ability modifier)
I consider 25% to be the cap for all other items.

[Psyren]

Choose the fraction of your wealth that you are willing & allowed to sacrifice to improve the stat and consult the table below.

At 10% of Character Wealth by level you get
+2 at 10th(PC)/14th(NPC)
+4 at 15th(PC)/19th(NPC)
+6 at 18th(PC)/Epic(NPC)

At 25% of Character Wealth by level you get
+2 at 7th(PC)/10th(NPC)
+4 at 11th(PC)/16th(NPC)
+6 at 14th(PC)/18th(NPC)

At 33% of Character Wealth by level you get
+2 at 6th(PC)/9th(NPC)
+4 at 10th(PC)/16th(NPC)
+6 at 13th(PC)/17th(NPC)

At 50% of Character Wealth by level you get
+2 at 5th(PC)/8th(NPC)
+4 at 9th(PC)/13th(NPC)
+6 at 12th(PC)/16th(NPC)

I consider 33%-50% to be the cap for the character's primary item. (Not always an ability modifier)
I consider 25% to be the cap for all other items.

I think this is a great rule of thumb. Adding to sig

[OldTrees1]

Thanks Psyren.

Anything I could add to it to make it more useful?

[Spore]

As we ruled that preexisting characters with Creation feats can create up to 25% of their WBL with their feat, I got my headband on 9th level easily. There are rules according to this in the Ultimate Campaign handbook of Pathfinder but I can't find a link for the life of me.

[Crake]

This is an actual rule for weapon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/creatingMagicItems.htm#creatingMagicWeapons) and armor enhancement bonuses. I don't think it is for ability score bonuses and I think your DM is just getting the rules mixed up there. Searching for the word "three" I only found it under weapons, armor and the ring of three wishes example item. Let him know and I think you can get this whole thing cleared up.

As I said, I cleared it up with the DM and made sure he realized it was a houserule, and not within the normal rules, he said that he was keeping the rule anyway. This was more a thread for me to get an idea of when items like this should become available from a DMing perspective, so I can avoid issues like that in my games.


That said, another +1 to your save DCs is overrated when most of the good spells don't even have saves. I'd be crafting a staff if I were you for moar spells; especially spammable and/or situational ones like wall of force (though I'd also prepare this one), divinations, force cage (often need 0 to save money, often need 4 to just plain win), stoneskin (since you need to wait for a 1-2 hour mission to use it at all and then you tag the whole party), greater teleport (never know how many you'll need), etc. Don't worry about charges never in my life have I had them run out. Ditto on material component costs; even if spamming a few will be plenty for the brief challenges that make up D&D.

Staff crafting isn't a half bad idea if I can get my DM to allow custom staff creation. That said, we're on an extended mission if you will. We're in the underdark, with environmental forces limiting teleport spells and long range communication like sending. There's no market down here to buy scrolls from, so I'm limited to my 4 spells per level to add to my spellbook.


But since you already have craft wondrous item anyway I'd make some +6 strength items for the melee; they'll get a lot more mileage out of it. And +4 of various other stats for the whole party. Maybe some flight providing magic items or whatever other wondrous utility stuff they need. Come to think of it, dust of disappearance is a pretty awesomesauce 1750 gp "we win" button for tough fights. In case your DM is rules fuzzy give him this so the monsters at least have half a chance: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#invisibility

Actually, over the last 2 months or so, both our melee quit (not from dislike of the game, but due to RL commitments), so we're a party of a wizard, a druid, and 2 clerics.

[Kelb_Panthera]

FWIW, magic item compendium has +2 stat boosters as an 8th level item, +4 at 14th, and +6 at 17th, but also notes that you could get them at 6, 12, and 15 without it being wholly inappropriate.

[ericgrau]

So then I assume neither of the clerics is melee? Utility wondrous items are still nice because arcane casters can do a lot of things that divine can't.

Out of the premade staffs divination, evocation, life and transmutation are great. Passage too but you can't use it. And the ok ones are abjuration, charming, frost, ilusion and size alteration. Not making any comments about the schools themselves just the spells those staffs happened to get.

In generally I think bringing in super expensive items isn't only something that the DM will want to avoid. It's also a sub-par strategy that every player should avoid. Blowing 1/3 of your money on a slight stat bump is a patently bad idea. It's usually stronger to get lots of smaller items. So I think asking the lowest level when it's ok to get an item is the wrong question. You should be asking when have you exhausted all other options that apply directly to your character's power, and so have no choice but to upgrade existing items to proceed further.

That is to say: having 2-5 strong combat spell options, all the cheap utility you can get, a slew of hour/level buffs kept up 24 hours (via lesser rods of extend spell or wands, for example), all your major ability scores, a little AC (especially touch AC) because the first dirt cheap +1 or +2 per item for effectively a 5-10% miss chance per +1 is a good deal even on a clothie. Only after you've gotten low level versions of every one of those then you upgrade every single one a little bit. It's true getting too many non-stacking items of the same kind is redundant, but you want to get as many items as possible that you can use at the same time before making any of them stronger. Because the cost of boosting one item is quadratic while adding on new ones is linear.

[Captnq]

The DMG page 126 gives NPC wizards +2 at 12th, +4 at 15th, and +6 at 17th.

The DMG's example NPCs are very poorly built, but, you ant a guide line, there you go.

The NPC fighter gets +6 at 19th.

Druid 11th,14th,17th

Cleric 10th, 14th, 17th


But lets look closer at wizard:
Amulet +1, bracers +3, ring +1, mundane melee, mwk ranged, headband of intellect +2, 9,700 gp

Seriously? Not one metamagic rod? He focused on AC? Seriously?

A spellcaster's save DC is increased by one thing, your primary stat. You need to increase that stat. Period. No question. Spellcasters live and die on the save DC.

If your DM expects you get magic items at the speed of the NPCs, then he expects you to be as stupid as the NPCs.

[Andezzar]

NPC wealth is considerably less than WBL.

Don't forget that any cleric or divine caster with Turn/rebuke undead can have a 24h +4 to those attributes that interest him by level 3.

[AzureKnight]

Crake, I would have to say that the idea your dm is using for level to ability modifier is pretty well balanced, hence at levels 3,6,9,12,15,18 you will get access to stat boosting items from +1 to +6.

That being said the bonus of the weapon can be matched by magical properties,
ranging from +1 to +5 ie a +5 longsword could also have the vorpal property added.

Starting at level 21, epics you should realize that all goes out the window as you enter the broke as hell zone.

[Devronq]

A 30th level character fights Balors in bulk, I should hope they have more than a +5 sword and some shiny boots.

I agree entirely I mean I'm a pretty stingy DM but if +6 items arent easy to obtain at level.20 then I think your being way to hard on your PCs you are aware of the epic level hand book that has +12 ability score items or more and +10 weapons and up right? A +6 should be laughed at by a luv.30 character at any optimization level.

[Melcar]

A 30th level character fights Balors in bulk, I should hope they have more than a +5 sword and some shiny boots.

Indeed... I just dont want my level 9 players running around in the best non epic gear around. Thats reserved for end levels of non epic play. And sometimes into the low epic leves as well.

I dont feel any level 30 should be laughing at +6 items... What happens when you dont have enough money for lets say a +8 belt of strength?

[Crake]

Indeed... I just dont want my level 9 players running around in the best non epic gear around. Thats reserved for end levels of non epic play. And sometimes into the low epic leves as well.

I dont feel any level 30 should be laughing at +6 items... What happens when you dont have enough money for lets say a +8 belt of strength?

the difference in price between epic and non epic items is immense. I believe its normal guidelines x10? So 36k for a +6 vs 640k for a +8. Doesn't matter that the bonus difference isnt huge, the price for epic level characters is still laughable.

[OldTrees1]

the difference in price between epic and non epic items is immense. I believe its normal guidelines x10? So 36k for a +6 vs 640k for a +8. Doesn't matter that the bonus difference isnt huge, the price for epic level characters is still laughable.

Yeah, you can (assuming the 50% WBL cap) fully equip a party of 6 with Belts of Magnificence +6 before you are eligible to get a single Belt of Strength +8.

[Devronq]

Thank you old trees and crake that was exactly the point I was trying to make 36k is nothing to a luv.30. Ya they probably wont have every epic item they want but they sure as neck haveany non epic item they want and probably as many as they ccould ever wear. That belt of magnificent was a great example.

[GreenETC]

In generally I think bringing in super expensive items isn't only something that the DM will want to avoid. It's also a sub-par strategy that every player should avoid. Blowing 1/3 of your money on a slight stat bump is a patently bad idea. It's usually stronger to get lots of smaller items. So I think asking the lowest level when it's ok to get an item is the wrong question. You should be asking when have you exhausted all other options that apply directly to your character's power, and so have no choice but to upgrade existing items to proceed further.

It's true getting too many non-stacking items of the same kind is redundant, but you want to get as many items as possible that you can use at the same time before making any of them stronger. Because the cost of boosting one item is quadratic while adding on new ones is linear.
I wish the DMs I play with would understand this fact. One of the things I am severely bothered by while playing is when a DM tells me that he doesn't want me to have full WBL, or if he does, that he wants me to condense my items to have a few specific items that the character needs to have to be playable, assuming a good melee character wants a +max weapon and +max armor before anything else when what I want is to get like 2 stat boosters, a teleportation item, some initiative boosters, a +1 X-ing weapon, some armor, and many other trinkets.

[Mordante]

Ok, so recently I was working on crafting a +6 intelligence item, which I thought was completely fine, and I mentioned it in passing with my DM, who immediately noted his disagreement, saying that I could only craft ability modifier items if my level was 3x the modifier, so if I wanted to craft +6, I'd need to be level 18. At the moment I'm level 13, so the best I can get up to is +4. Now I made sure that he realised that this was a houserule, not really by the books, so we're both clear on that, and despite me not liking the rule, I'm living with it. But that opened up the question for me, what level should these items become commonplace, at least for primary ability scores? I've always thought that by 12-15ish, +6 items should be quite decently available, after all, they're only 36k, which at 12 isnt even half of your wealth by level, and at 15 is barely even a blip.

I think your DM is entirely correct. Item with a +5 0r +6 should be lvl 15 plus items.

WBL isn't a rule

[truemane]

Metamagic Mod: thread necromancy