Help with old school fantasy design

[vgunn]

Looking for some assistance.

Much of this is similar to those who've played D&D. I'm much more of a rules-light person, so classic over advanced or newer versions--however some iterations like Castles and Crusades can work for me.

What I want to do is base the system around a character's six ability scores instead of the the ability modifiers. I don't really care about backward compatibility, so whatever gets ditched is not an issue for me.

* Classic six ability scores ranging from 3-18
* Roll high (d20) add ability score. Meet or beat target number to succeed
* Class is similar to careers in Barbarians of Lemuria (no skills, but you can have broad talents or moves)
* Six Saving Throws tied to each class for reactive checks
* Hit Points represent actual "hits" you can take before CON damage occurs
* Ability damage (scores can be temp. reduced from different types of attacks)
* Danger Die (to be explained in further detail) which ratchets up tension/excitement
* AC as either "ability challenge" in non-combat and AC as armor class in a fight

The target number in an ability challenge is your opponent's ability score + level (or HD). So you want to sneak past the guard, you've got a DEX of 10. The guard is level 5 and has a WIS of 8. So the AC is 13. Roll d20 and add your ability score, if it is a 13 or higher you succeed.

For combat, the AC is armor type (ascending 1-10) + DEX (or perhaps DEX+WIS / 2). Let's say the guard notices you and pulls a sword. The guard has 5 for amor and a DEX of 11, to the AC is a 16. Roll d20 and add your ability score, if it is a 16 or higher you succeed.

Thought for saving throws is I could use ability modifiers + level. I'd have six saving throw categories which tied to your class. If you are a 6th level Thief and have a DEX of 16. Roll a d20 and add +8 (level+mod), if your score matches or beats the ST number then you succeed. The nice thing about this is I don't need to have a sliding Saving Throw scale. Each class has a different set of numbers for Saves.

For advancement I'd go with 20th level as the top. You can increase 6 ability points over 18 levels as you progress. No ability score can be higher than an 18.

You can raise your ability score by one point upon reaching:

LVL 3
LVL 6
LVL 9
LVL 12
LVL 15
LVL 18

I also like HP represented as "hits" which is the number you can take before damage occurs. So a fighter with 7 HP can be hit seven times before damage is taken. HP covers, flesh wounds, weariness, morale etc. Once you are at zero, then damage reduces your CON score. Reach 0 CON and save vs death.

As you advance, each level gives you +1 HP. So at level two the fighter can take 8 hits. At level nine the fighter can take 15 hits.

With regard to magical weapons, a +2 sword doesn't give you a bonus to your roll, it gives you 2 extra hits if your roll is successful. So if you were fighting a Goblin with 3 HP, you would need to hit it three times before it takes damage. However with a +2 Sword you could immediately cause damage.

I'm not a big fan of skills and would probably use something along the lines of careers or talents (much more broad-based) which covers multiple class actions. However, not sure how to implement this into the mechanic. You could go with a bonus, a die step, or reduce the TN. Not sure which one works best.

The Danger Die is a risk that the player can take to increase rewards. For example, a fighter is striking at a dragon, but want to cause extra damage. He takes a d6 as his Danger Die and rolls it with his d20. The d6 number is reduced from result. If successful, the die can be used along with standard weapon to increase damage. You can save the die for later, for give it to someone else to use on their turn. If you fail however, the DM gets to keep it and use it against you.

I'd love to get some feedback from you!

[Composer99]

I also like HP represented as "hits" which is the number you can take before damage occurs. So a fighter with 7 HP can be hit seven times before damage is taken. HP covers, flesh wounds, weariness, morale etc. Once you are at zero, then damage reduces your CON score. Reach 0 CON and save vs death.

As you advance, each level gives you +1 HP. So at level two the fighter can take 8 hits. At level nine the fighter can take 15 hits.

With regard to magical weapons, a +2 sword doesn't give you a bonus to your roll, it gives you 2 extra hits if your roll is successful. So if you were fighting a Goblin with 3 HP, you would need to hit it three times before it takes damage. However with a +2 Sword you could immediately cause damage.


With respect to the mechanics of hit points, I see some definite benefits to adding a "wound" or similar mechanic to represent actual bodily damage. Indeed, the pre-Saga Wizards Star Wars game and SRD Unearthed Arcana material both use a split vitality/wound (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/vitalityAndWoundPoints.htm) system similar to what you are proposing.

I would question how you would plan on differentiating between, say, a dagger and a greatsword. Would a greatsword knock off more hit points, or just do more Constitution damage once it got through them?

[vgunn]

With respect to the mechanics of hit points, I see some definite benefits to adding a "wound" or similar mechanic to represent actual bodily damage. Indeed, the pre-Saga Wizards Star Wars game and SRD Unearthed Arcana material both use a split vitality/wound (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/vitalityAndWoundPoints.htm) system similar to what you are proposing.

I would question how you would plan on differentiating between, say, a dagger and a greatsword. Would a greatsword knock off more hit points, or just do more Constitution damage once it got through them?

Well the simple version would be just straight hit and then damage. But I do think the idea of a dagger slipping through (death by a thousand cuts) could be cool. So perhaps it is like 1+1. Each hit does one point of CON damage no matter what. Other weapons might reduce the AC when scoring a hit by damaging the armor. Nothing concrete, just throwing it out there.

[Ninjadeadbeard]

Well the simple version would be just straight hit and then damage. But I do think the idea of a dagger slipping through (death by a thousand cuts) could be cool. So perhaps it is like 1+1. Each hit does one point of CON damage no matter what. Other weapons might reduce the AC when scoring a hit by damaging the armor. Nothing concrete, just throwing it out there.

The Wound/Vitality system already handles that via Criticals. Daggers crit on 19 or something, and that damage is direct to Con. So...just increase the threat range of some weapons, or better yet do what my group does: Cinematic death.

Cinematic Death: Outside of combat, if an event should result in death given previously agreed upon rules of this setting, then it results in death. Holding a knife to a sleeping Fighter is a threat. The Fighter, upon waking, can break free, sure...but he doesn't have 300+ hp because the assassin made several sneak checks to get into a position to plant a dagger at his throat. That character earned an insta-kill if the Fighter decides to meta now.

[Composer99]

To be fair to realism, a stab through the ribs with a dagger and a decapitation by greatsword have the same net effect: someone's death.

So from a mechanical standpoint I wonder if it is as strictly necessary to be able to distinguish between them as I first posited - perhaps such differentiation is best left to their damage type (piercing vs. slashing) and to the "cinematics" of their use.

[Ralcos]

"I like it. It's nice and intimidating"

Anime quoting aside, I do like the concepts in the OP. I especially like the Danger Die mechanic.

I'd roll a Danger Die as a thief to evade notice of guards in a barracks, though I'm not sure how it'd work in such a situation.

[Chronologist]

So, here are my thoughts on the matter.

- Adding full-on attributes ranging from 3 to 18 (with 10-11 being average) makes bonuses fairly 'swingy'. In addition, you should know that using 1d20 WILL make the system have very unpredictable results. Just putting that out there. Also, instead of adding Attributes, why not just presume a 10 means +0, and just knock down the numbers by 10 points? 3 would just be a -7 at that point, so the range would be -7 to +8.

- Six defenses or saving throws? Would they be based on Attributes or something else?

- Not all hits should be equal, in my opinion. A peasant hitting you with a rock should NOT be as harmful as being roasted by dragonfire. Even if the dragon's much more LIKELY to injure you than the thrown rock, the fact that they could both inflict the same amount of bodily harm is... distressing. You may want to consider alternatives to this.

- Do all characters gain the same number of 'hits' by level? That's not really 'old-school'. I mean, Fighters were definitely tougher than Wizards in 2E. Perhaps mage-types could get one per two levels, and half-warriors like clerics and rogues could get three per four levels? Would make being a fighter a bit more rewarding. Still, the 'hits' system is not great, but if you're sticking to it that's what I would advise.

- Not really sure how the danger die works. Could you give a more detailed example?

Overall I'm feeling lukewarm to this system so far. I don't see it doing anything radically different from existing fantasy d20 games. If I may say so, here are a few things you should keep in mind:

1) The basic rules should be very simple. If it takes more than half an hour to learn how to play, it's probably too complicated. Make the math as simple as possible and streamline character creation.

2) The feeling should be fast and engaging. Some truly great RPG systems fall flat because combat and task resolution takes FOREVER. Just look at 4E - it's a beautiful tactical system but it takes over half an hour to do a simple fight, and I've been in battles that took nearly two hours to complete.

3) The choices should be meaningful and clear. Classes should be easily understood (especially the mages), races should be clear-cut and not packed with a million little abilities, and feats should have explicit benefits for taking them. The new D&D Playtest layout does this incredibly well, if you want to check that out.

4) The game needs to have a clear and distinct 'feel', and if possible a unique mechanic or approach to the fantasy genre that sets it apart from others. What makes this game so much better than the other hundred fantasy RPG systems out there? What's going to grab players and have them coming back for more? Some games have an incredibly detailed setting, others approach gameplay in strange and interesting new ways. A lot of recent fantasy RPGs just try to 'make a better mousetrap', i.e. take 3.5 or 4E and make it 'better'. How does your system do MORE than that?

vgunn, when you have that sorted out I think you'll have a much stronger system to present.

Chronologist

[vgunn]

Regarding Saving Throws

Ability Score Modifiers:

3-4 = -3
5-6 = -2
7-8 = -1
9-12 = 0
13 = +1
14 = +2
15 = +3
16 = +4
17 = +5
18 = +6

ELF (level 3)

AS 3-18 Bonus Saves
STR 10 (0) 15 vs crush, petrification, polymorph
DEX 16 (+5) 15 vs falling, missile, breath
CON 8 (-1) 12 vs poison, disease, death
INT 11 (0) 13 vs spells. insanity, psionic
WIS 13 (+1) 13 vs surprise, manipulation, wands
CHA 15 (+4) 12 vs Fear, Sleep, Charm

So if the Elf needs to save vs Charm, it is d20 + 3 (level) +4 (AB). The roll needs to match or beat a 12 to succeed. A save versus Poison is more dangerous. d20 +3 (level) -1 (AB), match or beat a 12.

-- As you level up, you get advancements. At 1st level you get 3 class talents. Each one of these is a d4. At the next level you can get a new talent or bump up on of your existing talents by 1 step to a d6.

[vgunn]

So, here are my thoughts on the matter.

- Adding full-on attributes ranging from 3 to 18 (with 10-11 being average) makes bonuses fairly 'swingy'. In addition, you should know that using 1d20 WILL make the system have very unpredictable results. Just putting that out there. Also, instead of adding Attributes, why not just presume a 10 means +0, and just knock down the numbers by 10 points? 3 would just be a -7 at that point, so the range would be -7 to +8.

Yes, this is old school I know. I want to keep the score rather than the modifier. Both for nostalgia sake and that most other OSR or Retros go with the modifiers. Mine has larger numbers at the start, but I've seen so many instances where modifiers can end up being 10+ for higher levels with all the bonuses.


- Six defenses or saving throws? Would they be based on Attributes or something else?

Regarding Saving Throws. Level and Ability bonus are used with the d20. Each class has a different set of Saves. These are static, and don't change as you level up.

Right now the numbers are not finalized, I'm just giving you something to look at.

Ability Score Modifiers:

3-4 = -3
5-6 = -2
7-8 = -1
9-12 = 0
13 = +1
14 = +2
15 = +3
16 = +4
17 = +5
18 = +6

ELF (level 3)

AS 3-18 Bonus Saves
STR 10 (0) 15 vs crush, petrification, polymorph
DEX 16 (+5) 15 vs falling, missile, breath
CON 8 (-1) 12 vs poison, disease, death
INT 11 (0) 13 vs spells. insanity, psionic
WIS 13 (+1) 13 vs surprise, manipulation, wands
CHA 15 (+4) 12 vs Fear, Sleep, Charm

So if the Elf needs to save vs Charm, it is d20 + 3 (level) +4 (AB). The roll needs to match or beat a 12 to succeed. A save versus Poison is more dangerous. d20 +3 (level) -1 (AB), match or beat a 12.


- Not all hits should be equal, in my opinion. A peasant hitting you with a rock should NOT be as harmful as being roasted by dragonfire. Even if the dragon's much more LIKELY to injure you than the thrown rock, the fact that they could both inflict the same amount of bodily harm is... distressing. You may want to consider alternatives to this.

Agreed. Dragon Breath is a Saving Throw. The rock thrown can be either a ST or Combat depending on the situation. A thief riding through town is recognized be a villager as someone who stole something from him. The villager picks up a rock and throws it at the thief. In this instance it is a ST. While if facing off in a fight, then it becomes a 'To Hit' combat issue.



- Do all characters gain the same number of 'hits' by level? That's not really 'old-school'. I mean, Fighters were definitely tougher than Wizards in 2E. Perhaps mage-types could get one per two levels, and half-warriors like clerics and rogues could get three per four levels? Would make being a fighter a bit more rewarding. Still, the 'hits' system is not great, but if you're sticking to it that's what I would advise.

A thought:

HP @ 1 Level

Fighter 3
Dwarf 3
Cleric 2
Elf 2
Thief 1
Magic-User 1

At second level, all classes get a HP. Third level, just Fighter. Forth Level all get an HP except Magic User. Fifth Level just Cleric. Sixth Level all get an HP. Seventh Level just Dwarf. Eighth Level all get an HP. Ninth Level just Fighter. Tenth Level all get an HP.

So at 10th Level it would look like:

Fighter: 10
Dwarf: 9
Cleric: 8
Elf: 7
Thief: 6
Magic User: 5


- Not really sure how the danger die works. Could you give a more detailed example?

A Danger Die is similar to the mechanic in Tunnels & Trolls or in 7th Sea, where you make the challenge more difficult for yourself in order to gain extra success. Definitely risk and reward. The Danger Die is a penalty you take, the size of the die determines the penalty. If you are successful, you get to keep that die and use it for later (could be for extra damage, added to a saving throw, add to an ability roll) you can also give the dice to another player as well if you wanted. If you fail, the DM gets the Die and can use it against you at some point later.


Overall I'm feeling lukewarm to this system so far. I don't see it doing anything radically different from existing fantasy d20 games. If I may say so, here are a few things you should keep in mind:

1) The basic rules should be very simple. If it takes more than half an hour to learn how to play, it's probably too complicated. Make the math as simple as possible and streamline character creation.

I think this will be very simple. Outside of the larger addition, to me it is much more simplified than most OSR games.


2) The feeling should be fast and engaging. Some truly great RPG systems fall flat because combat and task resolution takes FOREVER. Just look at 4E - it's a beautiful tactical system but it takes over half an hour to do a simple fight, and I've been in battles that took nearly two hours to complete.

I would think task resolution would be the same as for classic D&D.


3) The choices should be meaningful and clear. Classes should be easily understood (especially the mages), races should be clear-cut and not packed with a million little abilities, and feats should have explicit benefits for taking them. The new D&D Playtest layout does this incredibly well, if you want to check that out.

I completely agree with you!


4) The game needs to have a clear and distinct 'feel', and if possible a unique mechanic or approach to the fantasy genre that sets it apart from others. What makes this game so much better than the other hundred fantasy RPG systems out there? What's going to grab players and have them coming back for more? Some games have an incredibly detailed setting, others approach gameplay in strange and interesting new ways. A lot of recent fantasy RPGs just try to 'make a better mousetrap', i.e. take 3.5 or 4E and make it 'better'. How does your system do MORE than that?

I do think that it does some interesting things. The die step for Class talents and the danger die for instance. Damage which affects abilities. Having only Adds vs a bunch of positive and negative numbers. Unique Saving Throws for each class. Sudoku chart for the classes which makes each one different.

It's just a rough draft right now, but I'm liking the look of it.

Thanks again for the feedback!

[vgunn]

"I like it. It's nice and intimidating"

Anime quoting aside, I do like the concepts in the OP. I especially like the Danger Die mechanic.

I'd roll a Danger Die as a thief to evade notice of guards in a barracks, though I'm not sure how it'd work in such a situation.

Dair the 4th level Thief is trying to get into the captain's chambers and steal a rare artifact. He needs to evade two 3rd level guards to get into the room. Knowing that even more peril lies beyond the door, Dair decides to risk a danger die on the attempt.

The guards are on alert (+2 Add) and one of them has a WIS of 13. So the DC is LEVEL (3) + WIS (13) + ADD (+2) = 18 is the DC. Dair must roll an 18 or higher to succeed in evading the guards.

Dair has a 16 DEX and the class talent SNEAK d6. He takes a d8 Danger Die. So his roll will be d20 + DEX (16) + SNEAK d6 - DD d8. Dair rolls a 7 on the d20; 3 on the d6; and an 6 on the d8. 7+16+3-6 = 20.

He succeeds! Dair gets to keep the d8 to use for a later roll.

[Chronologist]

Just a few more comments:

1) What prevents characters from applying danger dice on trivial or otherwise easy conflicts and then using them against actually difficult conflicts? If they carry over between them then there's no reason NOT to take a Danger Die when you're going well, and NO reason to take a danger die when you're actually, you know, IN DANGER. It does less to make the action thrilling and instead makes it... less so.

2) What do you mean by unique 'saves' for each class? You list which attributes are used for which kinds of saving throws (Str versus petrification, Cha versus charm, etc.) How would that change based on class, or are those not 'saves'?

3) Enemies add their level to the DC, but players don't? Are they expected to have a +1 bonus by level to all of their 'skills'? That would be a die step increase at EVERY level to keep up. If they only get one 'bump' per level to one of their abilities, they will fall behind VERY quickly unless they ONLY bump one of these skills / abilities.

4) You add the enemy Attribute to the DC, but you also add YOUR attribute to the roll? So, on average, your bonus will equal the DC. Why even bother rolling if you auto-win?

[vgunn]

Just a few more comments:

1) What prevents characters from applying danger dice on trivial or otherwise easy conflicts and then using them against actually difficult conflicts? If they carry over between them then there's no reason NOT to take a Danger Die when you're going well, and NO reason to take a danger die when you're actually, you know, IN DANGER. It does less to make the action thrilling and instead makes it... less so.

Ah, because you only get one per session to use. Throw is away on a trivial task early and it could cost you later. Not sure I would up this per advancement, will have to PT it.




2) What do you mean by unique 'saves' for each class? You list which attributes are used for which kinds of saving throws (Str versus petrification, Cha versus charm, etc.) How would that change based on class, or are those not 'saves'?

I haven't put together the matrix yet, but each class will have one particular Save that is easiest, while one which is their achilles heel.


3) Enemies add their level to the DC, but players don't? Are they expected to have a +1 bonus by level to all of their 'skills'? That would be a die step increase at EVERY level to keep up. If they only get one 'bump' per level to one of their abilities, they will fall behind VERY quickly unless they ONLY bump one of these skills / abilities.

But enemies don't get a d20 to roll (unless it is an opposed contest). Characters are getting ability advancements and skill die as they move upward.

Dair is now 12th level. He has an 18 DEX. His Sneak is now a d10. He is trying to get past 14th level guard with a Wisdom of 14. It is well-lit and the guard is paying attention so it's a +4 Add. The DC is a 32.

Dair rolls a 11 on the d20 and a 5 on the d10. 11+18+5=34 and he succeeds again.


4) You add the enemy Attribute to the DC, but you also add YOUR attribute to the roll? So, on average, your bonus will equal the DC. Why even bother rolling if you auto-win?

I think the numbers are okay. Let's put both examples up again and use lower die rolls this time for Dair.

Example A:

Dair the 4th level Thief is trying to get into the captain's chambers and steal a rare artifact. He needs to evade two 3rd level guards to get into the room. Knowing that even more peril lies beyond the door, Dair decides to risk a danger die on the attempt.

The guards are on alert (+2 Add) and one of them has a WIS of 13. So the DC is LEVEL (3) + WIS (13) + ADD (+2) = 18 is the DC. Dair must roll an 18 or higher to succeed in evading the guards.

Dair has a 16 DEX and the class talent SNEAK d6. He takes a d8 Danger Die. So his roll will be d20 + DEX (16) + SNEAK d6 - DD d8. Dair rolls a 5 on the d20; 3 on the d6; and an 7 on the d8. 5+16+3-6 = 17. Here he fails.

Example B:

Dair is now 12th level. He has an 18 DEX. His Sneak is now a d10. He is trying to get past 14th level guard with a Wisdom of 14. It is well-lit and the guard is paying attention so it's a +4 Add. The DC is a 32.

Dair rolls a 7 on the d20 and a 6 on the d10. 7+18+6=31 and he fails.

Example C:

Dair is now 12th level. He has an 18 DEX. His Sneak is now a d10. He is trying to get past 14th level guard with a Wisdom of 14. It is well-lit and the guard is paying attention so it's a +4 Add. The DC is a 32. Dair decides to take a d10 Danger Die.

Dair rolls a 16 on the d20, a 6 on the d10, and a 9 on the Danger Die. 16+18+6-9=31 and he fails.

Now I do agree that perhaps the situational Adds might need to be bumped up for higher DC, but I don't think the numbers are off that much.

Good feedback, I really appreciate it!

[Chronologist]

Ah, because you only get one per session to use. Throw is away on a trivial task early and it could cost you later. Not sure I would up this per advancement, will have to PT it.

That still doesn't prevent characters from angling for a large number of easy or trivial skill checks early in the day and then applying their accumulated danger dice later on. You need to severely limit when Danger Dice can be applied, and I'd advise making it the DM's choice, not the players. When the players attempt an attack or skill check, the DM should be able to offer the player in question a Danger Die (of a type of their choice). If the player accepts the die they subtract the dice result from their final roll result but they can keep it to use later. That'll definitely prevent players from attempting to 'stock up' on dice artificially.


I haven't put together the matrix yet, but each class will have one particular Save that is easiest, while one which is their achilles heel.

Fair enough. On the other hand, since classes will prioritize certain Attributes over others, why bother? Fighters are obviously going to be good at Strength saves, but not so good at Intelligence or Wisdom saves on average. Characters will either end up with one or more weak saves and one or more good saves, or they'll be 'average' at most saves but without any specialization.


But enemies don't get a d20 to roll (unless it is an opposed contest). Characters are getting ability advancements and skill die as they move upward.

Dair is now 12th level. He has an 18 DEX. His Sneak is now a d10. He is trying to get past 14th level guard with a Wisdom of 14. It is well-lit and the guard is paying attention so it's a +4 Add. The DC is a 32.

Dair rolls a 11 on the d20 and a 5 on the d10. 11+18+5=34 and he succeeds again.

Here's your problem: your formula looks something like this:

(Enemy Level + Enemy Stat + Modifiers) vs. (1d20 + Stat + Skill)

A level 1 enemy with a stat of 10 and no modifiers has a total of 11. A level 1 character with a stat of 10 and no skill has a total of 1d20+10. Do you see the unbalance there? Here's another. A level 20 enemy with a stat of 20 and no modifiers has a total of 40. A level 20 character with a stat of 20 and no modifiers has a total of 1d20+20. All you're doing is making it so that, all things being equal, the enemy's level is effectively their 1d20 roll result. This does not work. If you want to balance both sides of your formula, it's going to have to look something like this:

(10 + Enemy stat + modifiers) vs. (1d20 + Stat + Skill)

All things being equal, this will give players about a 50/50 chance against equally capable enemies, regardless of the enemy's level. If you want enemies to be more of a challenge, adjust their modifiers accordingly or raise their relevant attribute.

[~Corvus~]

I'm much more of a rules-light person, so classic over advanced or newer versions

How is what you've described rules-light? Where does that part come in?

[vgunn]

How is what you've described rules-light? Where does that part come in?

It will be less crunchy than B/X will be and I consider that to be a rules-light game. Not on the level of something like Risus or one-page designs, but still nothing compared to some other games out there.