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Diane-35
2013-11-13, 08:51 AM
Hi everyone! Im kinda new to these forums, but not so new to dnd 3.5 itself - I often play with my friends. We always try to impress each other with strange but powerful builds - so I thought to present you my favourite one - a variation of Combat Succubus!

I've seen some threads about succubi characters here, so i thought presenting my build would be a good idea!

1) Succubus as character
Stats of an average succubus can be found right here (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Succubus)


Lets look at them, shall we? :smallsmile:

You will have to ask your DM for permission to play a succubus - some dont allow monster characters. However, even if you get one, you cannot start before lvl12 - and even then you will only be lvl6! (lvl adjustment +6 and 6 monster hit dice). To have at least one class lvl, you need to be lvl13.
Rules for creating a monster-race character can be found here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monstersAsRaces.htm)


According to these rules, a succubus has the following bonuses to ability scores:
STR, DEX, CON = +2
INT = +6
WIS = +4
and my favourite: CHA = +16!

Okay, what else do we have here...
SR=18
Natural armor +9
damage reduction
immunity to electricity and resistance to fire, cold and acid...
telepathy and ability to speak any language...
teleport, suggestion, charm and jaunt at will.
And, of course, an ability to change shape at will.

Basically, a succubus is an ideal face for a party in any social environment, except for a city full of paladins.
She is also a great support character with that suggestion-at-will ability.

And energy drain.

but for me all these are just an icing on the cake. The cake is +16 charisma and +9 natural armor!

I wondered how to put this charisma to use in combat - and found a lot of stuff that can actually make a decent fighter out of your succubus!

My build is the following:
Succubus 6 - battle dancer (http://dndtools.eu/classes/battle-dancer/) 1 - duskblade 1 (http://dndtools.eu/classes/duskblade/) - arcane duelist 2 (https://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20030224a) - paladin 2 - warshaper 2 (http://dndtools.eu/classes/warshaper/)

You can use either paladin of slaughter variant if you decide to stay chaotic evil, or you have to make up a really great background for a succubus to make her good. Paladin variants can be found here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm).

Also, you have to check with your DM if he allows qualifying for warshaper. Arcane duelist prc is also kind of not quite usual to take - so ask about it too.

Okay... why do we need all that?
1) A single lvl of battledancer will add your CHA bonus to AC! With decent charisma it is better than an enchanted fullplate. Oh, and you dont have to take it off to bathe :)
2) Duskblade is needed to qualify for arcane duelist. Of course, you can take a level of another class, but duskblade gives you weapon proficiencies, +1 BAB and some really good spells (swift expeditious rethreat, true strike, blade of blood).
3) we need 2 levels of arcane duelist to add our charisma to AC. Yes, again! We now have DOUBLE the CHA to AC.
4) Paladin gives us smiting ability, which is nice (adding charisma to attack). But the real thing is adding our charisma to our saves! OR if you dont care about saves, you can use a paladin variant to add it to AC YET AGAIN. I prefer adding it to saves though.
5) Warshaper... two levels of this beast give us +4 to STR, +4 to CON, ability to grow weapons out of the blue and most importantly - immunity to critical hits (and sneak attacks!)

Sounds nice, doesnt it?
Wait, it gets better.

FEATS:
well, dodge and mobility are needed for arcane duelist and are not that bad by themselves. Flyby attack would be nice...
But the best one is Avenging Strike (http://dndtools.eu/feats/tome-of-battle-the-book-of-nine-swords--88/avenging-strike--153/). You have to be good to use it, and it only works against evil outsiders... but if your character is all about fighting demons - just grab it! It adds your charisma to attack and damage, so...

ITEMS!
Basically, you can have ANYTHING created for you. Its just kinda expensive to have everything we need. Rules for calculating item costs can be found here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/creatingMagicItems.htm#tableEstimatingMagicItemGol dPieceValues).

Now, there are some spells that you MUST have on your items:
1) Thunderlance (http://dndtools.eu/spells/spell-compendium--86/thunderlance--4304/) is just too good to pass, since it uses your Charisma to attack rolls and damage rolls. Oh, and it can be one-handed, which we are going to need later.
2) Whirling blade (http://dndtools.eu/spells/spell-compendium--86/whirling-blade--4768/) allows you to attack everything in a line - using your charisma for attack and damage rolls.
3) Dancing blade (http://dndtools.eu/spells/players-handbook-ii--80/dancing-blade--3010/) just hovers nearby and attacks enemies... using your charisma. You control it as a free action, so you can just continue doing what you like while it attacks.
4) Gauntlets of Heartfelt Blows (from dragon compendium) add your charisma to damage rolls as fire damage. Notice, you now have double charisma to attack while using thunderlance!
5) Slippers of battledancing (from item compendium) add your charisma to attack and damage (but you have to move at least 10 feet). Well... no full attacks. But who needs them, really? :smallsmile:
6) Cloak of Charisma +6! yay!
7) some protection items, like permanent mage armor.

Okay, so... basically, lets say we are good and we are fighting demons. With all these we are going to annihilate them!
Basically, when using Avenging Strike and Smite evil (and they CAN be used at the same time) while moving 10 feet and holding a Thunderlance in one hand... we have QUADRUPLE Charisma to attack rolls and TRIPLE Charisma to damage rolls (not including fire)!
Now imagine having like 38 charisma by level 20... That is +56 to hit and +42 to damage.
Basically, you cant miss anything if you roll anything but natural 1.

You are not only a party-face, you are also a good damage dealer now! And with good saves and AC you are basically a fighter now! Who can teleport. And use suggestion.

Of course, its not perfect... hit points are your worst problem due to lack of hit dice. So, even with 20 CON or so you are never going to be as tough as those fighters.

Still, i think that the main feature of the succubus is her crazy charisma, which adds to almost everything! While others have to master spellcasting or swordfighting and grow muscles, she can just raze enemies with her charming smile :)

Crake
2013-11-13, 09:36 AM
If you make up some bs fluff and swap your succubus to LE, get a level in monk, 2 levels in paladin of tyranny, and some levels in iaijutsu master, you can make a pretty mean iaijutsu warrior who gets cha to AC (via aescetic caster) and cha to saves, which with a 16 base in cha gives you 32 cha, or a +11 modifier. Lawful evil and iaijutsu master makes it a perfect yakuza-type character.

Edit: Oh and succubi dont qualify for warshaper, sorry to break it to you. The errata dropped polymorph for change shape, and warshaper specifically says that change shape doesnt qualify. nvm, confused it with alternate form apparently

Edit2: Oh, and the level adjustment pretty much always means that you will be a mediocre character, but the way CR scales means that you can make a pretty sweet boss character.

Socratov
2013-11-13, 10:17 AM
Looks good, though you may want to look at Magralyx (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16263127&postcount=271) an Iron Chef build that got honourable mention in the last IC, it might grant you some ideas and tricks

Mnemnosyne
2013-11-13, 10:40 AM
Edit: Oh and succubi dont qualify for warshaper, sorry to break it to you. The errata dropped polymorph for change shape, and warshaper specifically says that change shape doesnt qualify.
Warshaper actually lists the Change Shape supernatural ability as one of the five explicit ways to qualify. It is the Alternate Form ability that is called out as not qualifying.

Crake
2013-11-13, 10:54 AM
Warshaper actually lists the Change Shape supernatural ability as one of the five explicit ways to qualify. It is the Alternate Form ability that is called out as not qualifying.

oh fair enough, i always confuse those two.

Nocharim
2013-11-13, 11:46 AM
If you make up some bs fluff and swap your succubus to LE

This has actually happened in the written material. Zem'Jil is a LE Succubus who had herself bound to serve Wee Jas out of sheer boredom after spending 500 years in an amulet gathering dust in one her vaults.
Wouldn't really be surprising that other lawful deities would've done something similar to assert their dominance over chaos.

Sanctify the Wicked [BoED] a.k.a. The 'Good' Mindrape can forcibly turn evil creatures into good and applies the Sanctified Creature template, although at the expense of all supernatural and spell-like abilities.

Then there is Eludecia (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fc/20050824a) as an example of the GM fiat option.

Edit: Oh and almost forgot about Fiend of Possession [Fiend Folio] shenanigans.

Diane-35
2013-11-13, 12:30 PM
Well, my succubus is chaotic good :)
Evil just isnt my type - as well as lawful good, so Eludecia is just out of question (I kinda like her though :smallsmile:).

I just wanted to create good-avenger-themed character, who is a succubus - and was surprised to see this build not only being playable, but also quite strong both damage-wise and defense-wise!

I managed to get her unbuffed AC to 41 by lvl13 (having only 1 lvl of battledancer, using only cheap magic items like rings enchanted with permanent mage armor and permanent shield spell), which isnt half bad! Pretty much the same as her being a fighter in enchanted fullplate with a tower shield.

It was like "okay, I really want to play a succubus, but need her to be able to defend herself... oops - I got a fighter substitute..."

Kerim
2013-11-13, 01:33 PM
Marshal: Cha to one of the 3 defences, to skill rolls based on one ability, or another benefit. 1 level is best.

Force of personality: Cha to Will for every but a handful of effects.

If your DM allows it, I'd also ask to use the Savage Species monster progression of Succubus instead of what you have now.

Also: If the DM says Battledancer qualifies for the monk, get a Sparring Dummy of the master, for 10ft instead of 5ft steps, so you can full attack and use the slippers of battledancing at the same time.

Crake
2013-11-13, 10:43 PM
Also: If the DM says Battledancer qualifies for the monk, get a Sparring Dummy of the master, for 10ft instead of 5ft steps, so you can full attack and use the slippers of battledancing at the same time.

Nah slippers of battledancing specifically say move 10ft as part of a move action, not just 10ft overall in the round.

AzureKnight
2013-11-14, 01:28 AM
Perhaps I am way too old or remember things in a way that does not work, but one thing has me baffled. I am impressed by the use of class abilities for this build but the one thing I am having difficulties with is stacking Cha mod to ac.

When I learned to play 3.0 and 3.5, I enjoyed the classes that allowed bonus to ac by variety of classes be it monks Wis, or Arcane Duelest adding Cha. Why would the various single ability score modifiers stack?

It would seem to me at least, that the fact that 2 classes give you ac bonuses both useing Cha. is a moot point. It is like taking a class that says you add your Dex. modifier to your ac. If you already get it, why would you get it again?

It seems just a way of attempting to modify the system to try and break it in a way that it never was attempted to be. I am not hating here, or trying to sound like the lord of the rule book because god knows I am not. Just curious why this would stack.

Its just like if you had a cloak and ring of charisma each +2, you would only get a +2 and not a +4.

Angelalex242
2013-11-14, 01:43 AM
I think she should have some bard levels, just so you have an excuse to sing the raunchiest songs imaginable at the gaming table.

Sith_Happens
2013-11-14, 04:24 AM
I think she should have some bard levels, just so you have an excuse to sing the raunchiest songs imaginable at the gaming table.

Obligatory Pervirtuoso (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=167278&page=3) link.

Diane-35
2013-11-14, 01:29 PM
It would seem to me at least, that the fact that 2 classes give you ac bonuses both useing Cha. is a moot point. It is like taking a class that says you add your Dex. modifier to your ac. If you already get it, why would you get it again?

It seems just a way of attempting to modify the system to try and break it in a way that it never was attempted to be. I am not hating here, or trying to sound like the lord of the rule book because god knows I am not. Just curious why this would stack.

Its just like if you had a cloak and ring of charisma each +2, you would only get a +2 and not a +4.

Well, because dodge bonuses to AC stack with other dodge bonuses.

Also, Arcane duelist description says "arcane duelist adds her Charisma bonus to her Armor Class, in addition to her Dexterity bonus. Conditions that cause the arcane duelist to lose her Dexterity bonus to Armor Class also cause the arcane duelist to lose this bonus.".

But Battle Dancer says "battle dancer adds her Charismabonus (if any) to her AC...These bonuses to AC apply even against touch attacks
or when the battle dancer is flat-footed."

So, basically, these two work a bit differently, and also, they are both dodge bonuses (by RAI at least), which stack. If we go by RAW, they are both untyped bonuses, which also stack.
If we had like two classes which added CHA to AC as deflection or as an armor bonus, for example, only one would work.

But of course, it is up to DM to decide, if this is overpowered or not. My DM said he is totally okay with this.

[actually he is more concerned with a dude that wants to play a pixie assassin with permanent greater invisibility]

Diane-35
2013-11-14, 01:37 PM
Marshal: Cha to one of the 3 defences, to skill rolls based on one ability, or another benefit. 1 level is best.

Force of personality: Cha to Will for every but a handful of effects.

If your DM allows it, I'd also ask to use the Savage Species monster progression of Succubus instead of what you have now.

Also: If the DM says Battledancer qualifies for the monk, get a Sparring Dummy of the master, for 10ft instead of 5ft steps, so you can full attack and use the slippers of battledancing at the same time.

IMO, Marshal is not that great for me - it just doesnt fit in the story I made up :smallsmile:

I looked up Savage Species progression and would have definitely considered using it, if we had started the game as lower-than-13 level characters.

Starmage21
2013-11-14, 01:49 PM
Well, because dodge bonuses to AC stack with other dodge bonuses.

Also, Arcane duelist description says "arcane duelist adds her Charisma bonus to her Armor Class, in addition to her Dexterity bonus. Conditions that cause the arcane duelist to lose her Dexterity bonus to Armor Class also cause the arcane duelist to lose this bonus.".

But Battle Dancer says "battle dancer adds her Charismabonus (if any) to her AC...These bonuses to AC apply even against touch attacks
or when the battle dancer is flat-footed."

So, basically, these two work a bit differently, and also, they are both dodge bonuses (by RAI at least), which stack. If we go by RAW, they are both untyped bonuses, which also stack.
If we had like two classes which added CHA to AC as deflection or as an armor bonus, for example, only one would work.

But of course, it is up to DM to decide, if this is overpowered or not. My DM said he is totally okay with this.

[actually he is more concerned with a dude that wants to play a pixie assassin with permanent greater invisibility]

I'd be OK with this. If we compare your twinked out succubus at 13th through 20th Level to a standard Warblade, I think the warblade wins out everywhere except the SLAs.

Deadline
2013-11-14, 01:59 PM
I'm going to go ahead and second the suggestion you take a look at Magralyx (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16263127&postcount=271) (mostly because it was my build). But if you can't be bothered, I'll point out a couple of feats for you that may help you get more mileage out of that ridiculous charisma: Avenging Strike (from the Tome of Battle) and Combat Panache (from PHBII). :smallbiggrin: