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Ceaon
2013-11-13, 09:08 AM
Hello Playground,

I don't know if this kind of thing has been done before, but I wish to share with you the process of creating my latest character. I am interested in your thoughts on both my creative process and the end result.

At the start, I knew we'd be playing level 1, Pathfinder, Golarion, Inner Sea area. I have only played Pathfinder once before, in a homebrew world, and that campaign lasted for a few sessions. I have, however, played a lot of 3.5, so I was certain I'd grow accostumed to the system soon enough.

I decided I wanted to play something different from my latest character, a Savage Worlds Hellfrost archer Hearth elf, honorable, serious, and very driven to become a true hero (he was a former thief who took on the identity of another elf who had performed many heroic deeds but died unackowledged). I wanted to play up the intimidating presence without being entirely serious all the time. My usual starting point is starting with searching for cool pictures.

I quickly found this picture, of Zasalamel from Soul Calibur. It checked off some qualities that I liked to play: looks serious and intimidating (check), doesn't look squeaky clean morally speaking (check) and I could imagine that the tough posterior is only one aspect of his personality: he could be a fun-loving, booze-drinking impulsive warrior (check).

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_yc3DhkwzXb4/TTy86htX2gI/AAAAAAAAAKA/0fjo7UkCHQs/s1600/ZasalamelConcept.jpg

Although cool and fitting, I did not want to play a scythe-wielder, as I feel those are uninspired, overdone and impractical. I decided to slightly modify the picture, turning the scythe into another weapon. With my limited skills, all I could turn it into was this.

http://imagesup.net/?di=1138247974013

This meant I would be making a character with a quarterstaff. I was fairly certain I could work with that, so I decided to come back to that later, first looking at an appropriate backstory for the character.

I looked up on the pathfinderwiki if non-caucasians were even included in the setting. Luckily, they are, and the information from the wiki soon gave me inspiration for a character background. I started writing a backstory about a Sargavan boy from a poor social background. The abridged version is thus: he decides to leave home after learning that unlike his family and friends, he wasn't content with being where he was. He decides to join the Pathfinder Society and travels to Absalom. He is initiated, but due to his past catching up with him (in the form of a childhood friend turned criminal), he fails to complete the necessary trials. After careful discussion, he gets a last chance, but only after doing mercenary work for an indeterminate amount of time. I figured this would give the GM some clear motivation, plot hooks and some NPCs to work with.

At this point in time, I already had a clear idea of what I wanted the character to be able to do and I had already established earlier what I wanted his personality to be like.

At this point, I rolled for stats and got 15, 15, 14, 14, 10, 10. In the backstory, the character had shaped himself up to be a big bruiser, so his strength was gonna be 15+2. Looking over the classes, I wanted a class that wasn't a traditonal big bruiser class, just to mix things up. This meant no fighter, barbarian, paladin or even ranger. I decided against the logical choice of monk (I have some lasting 3.5-based dislike for the class) and eventually the magus (I wanted to make this character a mundane, non-magic user). I eventually settled on the rogue. Then I read up on its alternate cousin, the ninja, and was immediately sold. The Ki Pool was an awesome source for refluffing and I could immediately start adding to my backstory. For now, my stats were gonna be str 17, dex 15, con 14, int 10, wis 10, cha 14.

I decided the character, now named Ezekiel, was to be a former member of an adventuring party (hey, more NPCs for the DM!) who were to fight a dangerous anti-paladin. They defeated him but he turned out to be immortal (by a means that tied in with the established backstory). The only solution was to bind the anti-paladin's soul in Ezekiel. His Ki powers were now based on this dark presence in his body, and he would always detect as evil.

Then, I started looking at feats and class progression, which for me is where you create the fun things your character can do (as most people are already aware of exactly what a bruiser slash rogue-archetype should be able to do, I wanted to make sure he could do other things as well).
I wanted to make sure I would eventually get something out of using a sub-optimal weapon like the quarterstaff. Three things came to mind.

- Dip monk and use flurry of blows.
The quarterstaff is a monk weapon, and as such it can be flurried with. However, I quickly decided against it as I wished to stay in ninja from levels 1-20, as my last 3.5 character had been a multi-classing monstrosity (in a good way).

- Use power attack
As a two-handed weapon, this would yield results. However, as a precision based 3/4 BAB class, I was afraid power attacking might even decrease damage dealt.

- Use two-weapon fighting
As a double weapon, the quarterstaff could be use to go two-weapon figthing. Also, with dex 15, I exactly qualified for it. I liked this idea, because a -2 to hit is bad, but an extra attack is another chance to hit - and that is good! It would be a little different from standard two-weapon fighting since the character had only one weapon that could be used two-handed as well. So I decided this would be the route I would go.

At this point, the DM decided that rolling for stats was not the way he wanted to go anymore and we got point buy 20. After long thinking, I could not I rearranged my stats as such: Str 14, Dex 14, Con 12, Int 11, Wis 12, Cha 14 and added the human +2 to strength. I dislike stat penalties and low will saves, but felt bad that I could not get dex up to 15 with this new set-up. I figured I needed to continue looking for other feats.

That is when I found the bludgeoner, sap adept, sap master and enforcer feats. I had forgotten a very basic quality of the quarterstaff: it dealt bludgeoning damage. These feats would deal extra damage and apply a possible shaken effect if I dealt nonlethal damage.

So I went back to the backstory and rewrote several parts as to increase Ezekiel's inability to cope with death. As such, he theorized he should never kill anyone. For extra hypocricy, I decided torture and other questionable methods were fine for him though. I looked up the deity of death. Turns out it is the Neutral goddess Pharasma, which I turned into Ezekiel's patron deity. I also added a dwarven cleric of this deity to my background.

At this point, the DM told us we'd be playing the Curse of the Crimson Throne path, so I moved the fight with the anti-paladin and the dwarven cleric to the city of Korvosa. Then, I wrote out a rough build for the character to take. I like to do this because I want to "roleplay the build"; I want to try to make the choice in abilities reflect the in-game choices. This means I may deviate from this build, but only if I think that'll lead to more fun!

By the way, it was just before finalizing the build that I found the Perfect Strike feat. Damn, that was cool, but I would only qualify for it when I took a useless feat (Improved Unarmed Strike) or multiclassed monk! I briefly considered throwing everything out again... but then I decided to just suck it up and take IUS somewhere along the way. So final stats were Str 14, Dex 14, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 13, Cha 14. At least unarmed attacks deal nonlethal bludgeoning damage...


The final build is as follows.


Ezekiel Nnanami
Human Ninja (Scout) 1
Stats: Strength 16, Dex 14, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 13, Cha 14)
Traits: Armor Expert, Carefully Hidden
Skills: 1+ rank in each class skill, with a focus on Acrobatics, Diplomacy, Intimidate, Stealth and Use Magic Device.
Feats: Bludgeoner, Enforcer

Proposed feats: Sap Adept (3), Sap Master (5), Dazzling Display (7), Shatter Defenses (9, great combination with enforcer and the scout archetype), Improved Unarmed Strike (11), Perfect Strike (13), filler (15, 17 and 19)
Proposed Tricks: Vanish Trick (2), Rogue Talent: Offensive Defense (4, excellent combination with Sap Master), Weapon Training (quarterstaff, 6, as a prerequisite for Dazzling Display) Shadow Clone (7, from favored class boni), Forgotten Trick (8), Invisible Blade (10), Advanced Talent: Opportunist (12), filler (14, 16, 18 and 20).

I really like my character's backstory. I think it turned out great (the non-abridged version is 10+ pages) and it provides the DM with a lot of hooks. I tried to make a build that is fun to play at all levels, has interesting things to do both in and out of combat, and has the ability to escape situations when they get out of hand. I made sure the character could make his enemies flatfooted and would be able to do more than deal damage (although that is still where the focus lies).

So, thoughts? Advice? Tales of your own process?

Spore
2013-11-13, 09:38 AM
I really like your concept, the character and respect your ideas behind the class choices. However rogue/ninja is by FAR the worst and weakest combo in the entire PF cosmos. Well built NPC classes can defeat him easily.

I don't get what you dislike on Monks. The class is very fitting for your concept (it's a martial artist for crying out loud) and playing a Ninja without sneak attacks will be very hurtful. Your build is very feat-heavy so the additional monk feats would help a great deal. Or at least make it a fighter/ninja combo to get additional BAB and feats. You need some feats.

If you want a not overpowered but still capable mundane martial artist with a twist, Monk 4/Ninja 16 would do the trick. Base your Ki of Wisdom and flurry the weapon.

I REALLY REALLY don't get what people dislike about classes (aside from alignment restrictions, and even for that, you could be a martial artist).

I like your concept and character, but I fear that your weak choices will make your playing experience a living nightmare.

I too created a rogue on the things I enjoyed the most and he is the saddest most pathetic excuse for a character ruleswise. He was supposed to have an Indiana-Jonesque vibe to it, along with smartly disabling traps, a charming personality and generally being a ladies' man.

What came out of the system was a two weapon wielding failure of a character. I love my character's personality and I still do. but after 1.5 years of frustration in fights were I either get beat to death because of my poor HP and cower in the distance using a bow while being built around two weapon fighting, or missing most attacks on TWF, or having my attacks almost nullified by DR, I decided that rogues and ninjas are a terrible class and shouldn't be played by anyone. For traps, there are trapper rangers and archaelogist bards. For sneak attacks, ninjas are better. For social interaction, bards, inquisitors and paladins take the cake. I have come to the realization that classes are not fluff but tools to achieve a great character. One of the most iconic characters in D&D (and Fâerun) is Drizz't Do'Urden who is sporting a level in Barbarian just because it fitted nicely. Neither is he a stubborn warrior of the north nor a Conan clone but he is still a barbarian and can use rage.

So please don't ignore the fitting wrench for your problem just because it hasn't helped you when you tried to fix a flat tire two years ago.

Ceaon
2013-11-13, 09:50 AM
(...) playing a Ninja without sneak attacks will be very hurtful.

Thanks for your response. I agree that this character is not the most effective choice out there, but I would not go as far as "virtually unplayable". For instance, why would he be unable to sneak attack? I mean, with Sap Master, I could eventually get as much as a +20d6 bonus to damage under certain circumstances.

Spore
2013-11-13, 10:31 AM
as much as a +20d6 bonus to damage under certain circumstances.

That is the catch.

e: In my calculations I came to pass that the monks is equally as terrible as the rogue/ninja. Your power will suffer if you don't multiclass into a full BAB class or at least use a twohanded weapon.

My TWF rogue does 20d6 if all attacks hit. But:

a) the enemy has to stand still between flanking positions.

b) all 4 attacks (at normal bab and -5 have to hit)

and compared to a flurrying and very mobile monk that gets the same amount of attack with +4 tucked upon, adding strength 1.5 times would hit for more.

Compare, shall we?
My 9th level rogue has Str 12 and Dex of 22, sporting +1 shortswords and weapon focus. We are flanking.

I have +14/+14/+9/+9 as attacks and deal 24d6+6 = avg. 80 damage. I think a AC of 22 is okay, so the avg .damage goes down to 48.

A 9th level monk with your stats and Str +2 belt has Str 18, Dex 14.

He flurries with a +1 quarterstaff and has no weapon focus.

He has + 12/+12/+7/+7 and deals 4d6 + 48 = 50 damage because he power attacks and flurries. 24 damage after subtracting missing.

In this scenario the rogue wins outright. Now the handmaiden demon swallows your fighter and you loose flanking.

My rogue has to feint his first attack to retain sneak attacks.

12/7/7 then. dealing 15d6+4 = 49 damage. He misses half his +12 attacks and three fourths of his iteratives. He now deals about 14 damage.

The monk looses his flanking buddy and keeps flurry and disables power attack and adds another attack with a ki point.

14/14/14/9/9 dealing 5d6+30 damage = 45 damage. Less than the rogue, right? But his to-hit-bonusses let him catch up. 22 damage are dealt. Even without the additonal attack (avg. 4,5 damage) he deals more damage than the rogue.

The rogue IS awesome when flanking, but he is utterly screwed when not flanking. We are talking about a very very low comparative power anyway. Because monks suck too.

Compare this with a Str 20 Fighter with a Greatsword. Power attacking with +16/+11 dealing 4d6+64 = 76 damage. 65 damage compared. And a Fighter isn't even considered powerful when compared to spellcasters.

Ceaon
2013-11-13, 10:59 AM
That is the catch.

e: In my calculations I came to pass that the monks is equally as terrible as the rogue/ninja. Your power will suffer if you don't multiclass into a full BAB class or at least use a twohanded weapon.

I AM using a two-handed weapon (it's just a low-base-damage two-handed weapon). And unlike a rogue, a PF ninja can become invisible as a swift action, creating easy sneak attack opportunities. My character can do this as early as 2nd level. Doesn't that count for something?

Edit: I think we have different opinions on when a character starts becoming viable. So instead of arguing, I'll take your points in consideration for if I ever feel underpowered.

Spore
2013-11-13, 11:48 AM
Edit: I think we have different opinions on when a character starts becoming viable. So instead of arguing, I'll take your points in consideration for if I ever feel underpowered.

That is a good stance on things. Power is always comparative, so you have decent challenges if paired with similarly powered groups.

If your group contains a druid, a magus, a sorcerer and a witch, you will feel like the fifth wheel. Always keep the options for multiclassing open. If you see an additional feat that will certainly improve your combat in a major way, dipping a level of fighter won't hurt you.

I dipped 1 level in fighter as opposed to getting another sneak attack die so I can two weapon feint because I cannot deal instant sneak attack damage in open combat. This won't affect the general power of the class, but it softens out the "damage curve" a lot.

I have a general policy.
Lv 1-7 you do everything you can to improve your primary fighting style.
Lv 8-12 you cover up any glaring weaknesses.
Lv 13+ you push your combat style and preferred skills to the maximum.

My charismatic LG Cavalier 9 is taking 2 levels of Paladin to cover up his poor saves (plus it works for him as he has lost his whole order in the war and nearly lost his group while fighting several daemons). My Bones Oracle took several summoning spells to call guardians and has her summoned undead to cover her. My Lore Oracle will most likely buy an animal companion for his defense (the barb in the group does enough damage, but isn't helpful if my ass is getting devoured). And my Sorcerer/Dragon Disciple has 90 HP and a great attack bonus on his claws while only sacrificing one level in spell casting for it. And if I had to rebuild my retiring rogue, I would've slapped as much AC on him as possible to not be nearly killed every other encounter. So magical buckler, ring of prot. amulet of protection, Dodge, Mobility and Spring Attack with Scout Archetype.

Your main problem will be your low Con. You only get d8 as ninja and you are entering melee. Even with Invisibility trick, you lack Mirror Images until Lv 7. You will/fort save is weak your HP is minimal and your AC is lacking. You have to be swift and nearly invisible but your saves and AC will be used at some point. Cover them SOMEhow. Dipping Monk 1 is recommended as the starting saves are godly the option to flurry is a great addition and the bonus feat isn't to be hated either (Combat Reflexes is great, as is Dodge for upping your AC a bit and prepping you for the needed feat of mobility for the Scout's preferred hit and run combat).

Too long, didn't read version: Dip 1 level in monk or fighter if needed. It's great.

Psyren
2013-11-13, 12:18 PM
To start with, great backstory :smallsmile:

I think you're writing off monk too soon as it seems perfect for your concept. I understand your frustrations with them from 3.5 but with the right archetypes (Qinggong and Weapon Adept in particular for this character, plus maybe a vow or two thrown in for free bonus ki) you can replace most of the junk abilities like Slow Fall and High Jump with more useful ki powers and be quite viable on the battlefield.

Zubrowka74
2013-11-13, 12:47 PM
Too bad you scratched off the magus because you could do a STR based Staff Magus (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/magus/archetypes/paizo---magus-archetypes/staff-magus) and leave yourself some options. Sure you're a spellcaster but it's melee oriented.

Ceaon
2013-11-13, 01:06 PM
I think what I'm learning from your replies (and my reaction to your replies) is that I choose my class on a very emotional level, striking off classes that don't "feel" right for the character until one remains. When that happens, I switch from an emotional approach to a more logical, optimization-based approach towards feats, skills, traits and class choices.

So thanks for that insight! :smallsmile:

While on a logical level, I can see how a weapon master monk or a staff magus might work better for this character, it doesn't feel"right to me anymore. However, I may be more easily swayed by feat or ninja trick advice.

Also, very glad that all of you like the backstory. I haven't even mentioned half of it (including the fact that the character is married and has twins, which will make for a nice Vaarsuvius-style surprise for the party). So feeling really good about that, thanks :smallredface:

Psyren
2013-11-13, 01:30 PM
Well you have to understand there's some communication gaps going on here. You didn't say "monk doesn't feel right for this character concept" in the OP; what you actually said was "I didn't like monks in 3.5 so I'm avoiding them here." In other words, it sounded like it was power concerns and not flavor setting you against them. The logical response to the latter would be to point out ways that PF monks are more capable, which includes archetypes.

Anyway, I digress. Ninja does work fine for this too, but without flurry you will have to grab the TWF feats yourself, and that will use up a large chunk of your feat allotment. This is on top of the feats you'll need to do nonlethal SA with your quarterstaff. It's pulling your character in a couple of different directions. You may want to skip/retrain Bludgeoner and instead put merciful on your staff.

Ceaon
2013-11-13, 01:51 PM
Well you have to understand there's some communication gaps going on here. You didn't say "monk doesn't feel right for this character concept" in the OP; what you actually said was "I didn't like monks in 3.5 so I'm avoiding them here."
Sorry about that.


Ninja does work fine for this too, but without flurry you will have to grab the TWF feats yourself, and that will use up a large chunk of your feat allotment. This is on top of the feats you'll need to do nonlethal SA with your quarterstaff. It's pulling your character in a couple of different directions. You may want to skip/retrain Bludgeoner and instead put merciful on your staff.

I am not planning on going TWF anymore. Should I? The direction I am going with is "Make enemies flatfooted via invisibility or (enforcer or dazzling display)+shaken+shatter defenses, deal nonlethal damage and a whole lot of sneak attack damage to them, then protect self with invisibility, shadow clones or another forgotten trick", while also useful trying to be useful in social or stealth tasks.

Psyren
2013-11-13, 02:00 PM
TWF is desirable because every attack you land means more SA. That, rather than the weapon itself, will be the bulk of your damage. This is especially noticeable at low levels, when you can do 3 attacks while most other classes (even fighters) are stuck doing 1.

From a personal preference standpoint, the visual to me of whipping a blurring quarterstaff around and cracking ribs/groin/cranium/knees with either end is way cooler to me with TWF than 2-handing it and swinging it like a bedpost, personally.

Enforcer and that line are certainly okay but consider retraining them once you access Invisible Blade.