Cost of a custom metamagic feat?

[molten_dragon]

What should a custom metamagic feat that increases the duration of a spell to the next duration category (i.e. 1 round/level to 1 minute/level, 1 minute/level to 10 minutes/level, etc.) cost?

It's definitely better than extend spell at +1, but (for most things) not as good as persist spell at +6. I was thinking maybe +2 or +3?

And should extend spell be a prerequisite?

[Kasbark]

I would make it +3 to be on the safe side. Most of the time it extends the duration of a spell by a factor of 10, so i think it should me more than twice as expensive as a simple double duration.

I don't think you need to make extend spell a prerequisite.


Edit: spelling

[molten_dragon]

I would make it +3 to be on the safe side. Most of the time it extends the duration of a spell by a factor of 10, so i think it should me more than twice as expensive as a simple double duration.

I don't think you need to make extend spell a prerequisite.


Edit: spelling

I was leaning towards +2, but let me explain my logic.

If you could stack the feat with itself (which I wouldn't plan on allowing), using it 3 times (a +6 adjustment) could raise the duration of a 1 round/level spell to 1 hour/level, which by 13th level (the earliest you could do that to a 1st level spell, barring dirty tricks) would be roughly analogous to persisting the spell.

I suppose in the face of metamagic reduction +3 might be safer though.

[Spore]

Extend Spell double the duration. But 2x rounds/level is double as long.
Now extending a spell 10 times the duration is obviously 10 times as long.
You can make a spell with divine metamagic last 24 hours, which is 6 spell slots above. The middle of 1 and 6 is 3,5, but your spell is on the weak side, so I'd say, 3 levels is great.

You could differentiate:
1 round to 1 minute per level is +1.
1 minute to 10 minutes per level is +2.
10 minutes to hours/level is +3.

Why? 1 minute/level spells have to be cast twice or more often. 10 minute buffs are likely to be cast once for several fights. hours/level uses up much less spell slots as it is cast once per day at maximum.

[Lightlawbliss]

note: this should probably be in homebrew

also, are you thinking of this only for spells with duration based on level or would you work the wording to allow fixed duration spells as well (this could be good or bad).

[molten_dragon]

note: this should probably be in homebrew

I thought this would work better since I haven't actually written it up to review, but if a mod wants to move it that's fine.


also, are you thinking of this only for spells with duration based on level or would you work the wording to allow fixed duration spells as well (this could be good or bad).

I was thinking only spells with a duration based on level, since others don't fit neatly into categories, but I suppose in most cases, the feat is increasing the duration by a factor of 10, so I suppose it could just do that to any fixed-duration spells.

I'm wondering if there are some fringe cases where that could be pretty broken, though I can't think of any off the top of my head.

[molten_dragon]

You could differentiate:
1 round to 1 minute per level is +1.
1 minute to 10 minutes per level is +2.
10 minutes to hours/level is +3.

Why? 1 minute/level spells have to be cast twice or more often. 10 minute buffs are likely to be cast once for several fights. hours/level uses up much less spell slots as it is cast once per day at maximum.

I'm not sure why it should cost more to go from 10 minutes/level to 1 hour/level, since that's only 6x the duration rather than 10x as the other two shifts are.

And from a game balance perspective, the shift from 10 minutes/level to 1 hour/level is probably the least powerful.

Let's assume a 10th-level caster

1 round/level to 1 minute/level shift takes you from a spell that lasts for one encounter, to one that could last through a few closely-spaced encounters.

1 minute/level to 10 minutes/level shift takes you from a spell that lasts for a few closely-spaced encounters, to one that could pretty easily last through all your adventuring for a day (i.e. if you're going through a dungeon, you could probably clear a small to medium sized one in a couple hours).

10 minutes/level to 1 hour/level basically only gains you coverage if you have several encounters spread out throughout the full length of a day.

[Spore]

Your arguments are convincing. If scaling the feat should affect the spells inversly.

[Ravens_cry]

There is a precedent for a scaling cost, at least in in Pathfinder, where adding an additional range to a Reach Spell (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/metamagic-feats/reach-spell-metamagic) adds a +1 to the level. For example, if you want to make a touch spell medium range, it adds +2. Something similar, but with time instead of space, might work.

[Kuulvheysoon]

...Is no one seeing the hilarious brokenness of the 1 hour/level to 1 day/level jump (unless there's a category between those two that I don't know about...)?

[Kasbark]

I don't think there is a cetegory thats 1 day/level, so i assumed in my post that this feat would not affect spells that already last 1 hour/level.

[Karnith]

I don't think there is a cetegory thats 1 day/level, so i assumed in my post that this feat would not affect spells that already last 1 hour/level.
There are a number of spells that are one day/level; in Core Dominate Person (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/dominatePerson.htm), Command Undead (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/commandUndead.htm), and Dimensional Lock (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/dimensionalLock.htm) spring to mind, and there are certainly others. Of course, there is also the intervening 2 hours/level duration (e.g. Alarm (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/alarm.htm), Mount (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/mount.htm), or Magnificent Mansion (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magesMagnificentMansion.htm)), so who knows how it'd work; there aren't really defined "duration categories," or at least not in the sense that this feat would require.

The easy fix to this is to strictly limit the benefits of the feat such that it would only affects spells with durations of 1 round/level, 1 min./level, and 10 min./level (or whatever it's supposed to do), and also to clearly explain the benefits, rather than referencing nebulous "duration categories."

[Sith_Happens]

There are a number of spells that are one day/level; in Core Dominate Person (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/dominatePerson.htm), Command Undead (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/commandUndead.htm), and Dimensional Lock (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/dimensionalLock.htm) spring to mind, and there are certainly others. Of course, there is also the intervening 2 hours/level duration (e.g. Alarm (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/alarm.htm), Mount (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/mount.htm), or Magnificent Mansion (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magesMagnificentMansion.htm)), so who knows how it'd work; there aren't really defined "duration categories," or at least not in the sense that this feat would require.

Gaseous Form (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/gaseousForm.htm) is 2 min./level.

[JaronK]

What should a custom metamagic feat that increases the duration of a spell to the next duration category (i.e. 1 round/level to 1 minute/level, 1 minute/level to 10 minutes/level, etc.) cost?

It's definitely better than extend spell at +1, but (for most things) not as good as persist spell at +6. I was thinking maybe +2 or +3?

And should extend spell be a prerequisite?

Consider that if you use this metamagic on an already persistent spell, it would now last one week, making this prime DMM:Persist bait. Extending it from there gives two weeks.

Consider also hour/level spells become day/level. And yes, there are current spells with day and week durations.

I'd say that this is very abusable as written, so you might want to do something about that.

JaronK

[Captnq]

I would say, Broken.

Durations are one of the ways to keep spells from getting out of hand. You need to factor it that it wouldn't be that hard to get the cost down -2 with a little effort. So if you make it only +2, I can arrange to have it on everything. Add 0 cost extend and even a 1r/level spell becomes 2m/level.

Persistant is +6 for a REASON. Because it's not that hard to get the cost down. Once my spells last 16 hours, they are effectively all day. Hell 8 hours should be enough for most adventuring days.

Don't. Just don't.

[Barstro]

I'm not sure why it should cost more to go from 10 minutes/level to 1 hour/level, since that's only 6x the duration rather than 10x as the other two shifts are.

10 minutes/level to 1 hour/level basically only gains you coverage if you have several encounters spread out throughout the full length of a day.

It changes the spell from "I hope I get a chance to cast this before someone attacks" to "It's mid morning and we haven't had an encounter, time for the daily buff".

It gets rid of all worries about when to cast, and increases action economy during fights; essentially giving the caster a few more rounds to actually do things during fights.

IMO, going from 1-min/lvl to 10-min/lvl doesn't help too much. Might get you to another fight. But to suddenly have buffs got from a fight or two to an entire working day is pretty strong.

[Chronos]

Don't look at the numbers in isolation; look at what they actually do, in practice.

Spells that last 1 round/level are likely to last an entire combat, even unextended. Extend them, and they're still probably not going to last long enough for two combats. So extend is almost useless for them.

Spells that last 1 minute per level can be practically cast before battle, if you know exactly where you're going to find your enemy. If you really hustle to the next encounter, they might still be active for two fights. Extending them doesn't change this basic dynamic, but it gives you a little broader window to find the encounter in. So extend has a little use for them, but not much.

Spells that last 10 minutes per level can last for a significant chunk of the day, especially if you're willing to re-cast them. Extending them can make that chunk longer, or halve the number of slots you need to spend on them. Extend is therefore reasonably useful, here.

Spells that last an hour per level are usually cast at the start of the adventuring day. Until high level, though, you're going to have a gap of time where you'd like to have them up but they're not. Extending is great at mid-levels, but goes obsolete once you get high enough.

Note that all of these durations are qualitatively different in how they're used. Extending them makes them more useful for what they're used for, but in most cases it doesn't really change how they're used. This new feat, however, would change how you can use the spells. I think that's enough to justify a +3.

Oh, also, if you do create this feat, make sure to explicitly state in the feat how it interacts with Extend. This is already a headache with Persist, with different DMs ruling differently.

[Jeff the Green]

TuggyNE, who's generally good with balance, pegged it to +3 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=249137).

[molten_dragon]

...Is no one seeing the hilarious brokenness of the 1 hour/level to 1 day/level jump (unless there's a category between those two that I don't know about...)?

What spells that currently have an hour/level duration do you think would be broken with a day/level duration? Can you give examples?

[molten_dragon]

Consider that if you use this metamagic on an already persistent spell, it would now last one week, making this prime DMM:Persist bait. Extending it from there gives two weeks.

I don't typically allow DMM:Persist abuse in my games anyway, do that's not a serious concern. Without DMM:Persist, applying this feat and persist to a spell would be a +8 or +9 adjustment, limiting it to cantrips or at most 1st level spells.

[Der_DWSage]

What spells that currently have an hour/level duration do you think would be broken with a day/level duration? Can you give examples?

For starters, Mindblank becomes a twice-a-month casting rather than a daily one. (There's rods for all the other metamagics-not out of the question that there's one for this.) Greater Magic Weapon is probably a more classic example, as it'll let you buff the party's stuff once every two weeks (Assuming a level 11 caster) and then all your spell slots are free. Freedom of Movement becomes an all-day buff, rather than a mildly situational one. Mage Armor once every few days isn't a bad idea.

It would be wise to just cap things out at hours/level. That gives you all day buffs.

[Kuulvheysoon]

For starters, Mindblank becomes a twice-a-month casting rather than a daily one. (There's rods for all the other metamagics-not out of the question that there's one for this.) Greater Magic Weapon is probably a more classic example, as it'll let you buff the party's stuff once every two weeks (Assuming a level 11 caster) and then all your spell slots are free. Freedom of Movement becomes an all-day buff, rather than a mildly situational one. Mage Armor once every few days isn't a bad idea.

It would be wise to just cap things out at hours/level. That gives you all day buffs.

Funny enough, Mind Blank isn't affected. It's duration is a flat 24 hours. but the others are all not bad examples of what I mean.

[molten_dragon]

For starters, Mindblank becomes a twice-a-month casting rather than a daily one. (There's rods for all the other metamagics-not out of the question that there's one for this.) Greater Magic Weapon is probably a more classic example, as it'll let you buff the party's stuff once every two weeks (Assuming a level 11 caster) and then all your spell slots are free. Freedom of Movement becomes an all-day buff, rather than a mildly situational one. Mage Armor once every few days isn't a bad idea.

It would be wise to just cap things out at hours/level. That gives you all day buffs.

I thought this at first too, but I'm not sure it would be as big of a problem as you think.

By the level of the game where things like all-day mind blank or greater magic weapon become an issue (i.e. upwards of 10th level), most major fights are going to involve enemies with spells of their own or spell-like abilities. And dispelling the enemy's buffs is one of the first things that happens in a major fight.

So while this feat makes the spells last a lot longer, they're no more resistant to being dispelled than any other spell. So if it's a critical spell, the caster is probably going to prepare it anyway, in case it gets dispelled some time during that 2 weeks, which is pretty likely in my experience.

Or they don't prepare it, freeing up more spell slots for other things, but they have no backup in case their important buffs get debuffed.

Still, limiting it to working on spells with a 10 minute/level duration or less might not be a bad idea.

[TuggyNE]

TuggyNE, who's generally good with balance, pegged it to +3 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=249137).

Heh, I was going to mention that. Thanks for the kind referral!


Still, limiting it to working on spells with a 10 minute/level duration or less might not be a bad idea.

I think it might be more useful to just get rid of regular Persistent Spell, which is too swingy*, and use this instead rather than in addition. That cuts down on most or all of the abuses without being useless.

*I.e., for some spells it does nothing at all, and for other spells it multiplies their duration by as much as 14400 times, and there's a whole range of possibilities between those; as such, giving it a single +6 modifier is vastly oversimplifying things.

[molten_dragon]

I think it might be more useful to just get rid of regular Persistent Spell, which is too swingy*, and use this instead rather than in addition. That cuts down on most or all of the abuses without being useless.

*I.e., for some spells it does nothing at all, and for other spells it multiplies their duration by as much as 14400 times, and there's a whole range of possibilities between those; as such, giving it a single +6 modifier is vastly oversimplifying things.

Yeah, I've thought about doing that. Or just making the modifier for persist spell based on the original duration rather than being a single modifier.

[molten_dragon]

Okay, so it sounds like the general consensus is that +3 would be balanced best.

What about for a psionic version of the feat? I'm thinking it should probably be 4 extra power points? Slightly lower since you have to expend your psionic focus, and metapsionic cost reduction isn't as much of an issue.

[Chronos]

Slightly lower since you have to expend your psionic focus
Don't give it any credit for that. In-combat, expending your focus is significant, since you then have to spend actions to get it back, or do without. Most of these spells, though, are going to be cast out of combat, when the action cost of regaining focus is negligible.

[TuggyNE]

Chronos is right, just leave it at 6pp and call it good.

Edit: Hmm, I should do a quick little write-up of the conversion for completeness' sake. Which I have now finished, in the same thread as last time.

[Ravens_cry]

Chronos is right, just leave it at 6pp and call it good.
You got a good point there. The whole point of this metamagic/metapsionic feat is to be able to cast in-combat spells/powers out of combat