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Belial_the_Leveler
2013-11-13, 09:48 AM
This character is built using a set of homebrew combat talents which I'm currently playtesting. What do you think is her actual, real CR?


Queen Mordellen
female Chaotic Neutral Human (?) Fighter 20
Init +12, HP 586/586, Speed 30 ft, fly 60 ft (avg)
AC 55, touch 50, ff 43 (+12 Dex, +5 Natural, +5 Deflect, +23 Misc) CMD 77
Fort +25, Ref +24, Will +16, CMB +27 Base Attack Bonus +20/+15/+10/+5
Arcane Razor 44/39/34/29 (1d6+1d10+26, 3x)
+5 Screaming Comp. Longbow 43/38/33/28 (1d6+1d8+21, 3x)
Str 24, Dex 34, Con 24, Int 18, Wis 18, Cha 16
Magic Items
Arcane Razor: a +5 screaming agile crystalline Elven Curved Blade whose hilt is separately enchanted as a Rod of Cancellation. +5 screaming composite Longbow, +6 belt of magnificence, +5 mantle of resistance, Mithral Celestial Plate of Improved Resistance vs all energy types, Amulet of adaptation and Natural Armor +5, Ring of Protection +5, Eyes of the Eagle and Fogcutting, Ring of Free Action, Eversmoking Bottle, Wings of Flying, Ioun Stones (clear spindle, pale green prism, narceous grey sphere, iridescent spindle), Tomes (consitution +4, strength +4, dexterity +5, all used)

Fighter Class Abilities
Armor Training +4, Bravery +5, Heavy Blades +4, Bows +3, Natural +2, Thrown +1, Weapon Mastery: Curved Blade, Armor Mastery: DR 5/- in armor

Advanced Weapon Focus
Queen Mordellen is proficient with a number of different weapons (in addition to any normal proficiencies) equal to her total number of Combat Talents (23). She applies weapon focus, weapon specialization, greater weapon focus, greater weapon specialization and improved critical to them. Longbow, Elven Curved Blade and Unarmed Strike are three of her choices - the other are up to the GM.

Advanced Martial Technique
Queen Mordellen knows 1 general or combat feat plus 1 more per 5 combat talents she has (total of 5). A 15-minute rest/meditation/training allows her to change the feats chosen. She may not pick feats that have limited uses or provide expendable benefits. Queen Mordellen usually chooses Weapon Finesse, Power Attack, Point-Blank Shot, Deadly Aim and Iron Will.

Advanced Martial Training
Queen Mordellen knows and has readied a number of maneuvers equal to 1/2 her combat talents (11 in this case) and her initiator level is equal to her number of combat talents (23). She may select the same maneuver more than once. Rules for readying and/or retrieving maneuvers are as per Swordsage. After a full rest, maneuver choices for the day can be changed. Queen Mordellen prefers White Raven maneuver choices.

Defiance/Determination/Withstand
These three combat talents give Queen Mordellen a number of exertion points equal to 3x her number of combat talents (66 total). She may exert herself to overcome extraordinary or supernatural attacks through heroic effort. After being hit but before rolling for a save, she may spend points equal to an effect's level or the attacker's CR (whichever is lower) to automatically succeed on her save. She may expend twice an effect's level in points or the attacker's CR+5 (whichever is lower) to negate any negative effects other than damage. Exertion Points regenerate by 1 per round but every time these abilities are used her total is reduced by 1. A full rest restores the total to its maximum.
She may not use this ability to negate effects that have neither a level nor an originator with a set CR, regardless what users of Iron heart Surge might claim.

Combat Mobility/Swiftness/Surge
These three combat talents give Queen Mordellen a number of exertion points equal to her number of combat talents plus her BAB (43 total). She may exert herself to move or attack much faster than normal. Spending 1 point increases her speed for the round by 5ft. Spending 8 points allows her to perform an extra physical move action or attack action. Spending 15 points allows her to perform a physical move or attack action as a free action when not her turn. Exertion Points recover fully at the beginning of her turn however each round she uses this ability reduce her total maximum by 1. Every 5 minutes of rest removes 1 point of reduction. She may not take full-round actions or make use of any other effect allowing extra actions, extra attacks or extra turns in any round she uses this ability.

Improved Resilience/Improved Defense
These two combat talents give Queen Mordellen a competence bonus to her AC equal to the number of combat talents she has; this bonus does not stack with her armor bonus and does not apply if she's paralyzed or otherwise prevented from defending herself. In addition, Queen Mordellen reduces any ability damage, ability drain, ability penalty or negative levels taken from an attack by 1/4 her number of combat talents (in this case 5), to a minimum of 0.

Improved Toughness
This combat talent gives Queen Mordellen +3 hp per combat talent she has, and +1 Fast Healing per 7 combat talents she has as long as she is under half her maximum HP. She has taken it 5 times for a total benefit of +330 hp and Fast Healing 15.

Instant Parry
This talent gives Queen Mordellen a number of exertion points equal to half her number of combat talents plus her constitution modifier (total 18). Against any attack with a target within 10 feet (including herself) requiring an attack roll, she may spend a point to make an opposed roll with a melee weapon at her full attack bonus or her shield (at the same attack bonus, but substituting the shield's enhancement bonus for the weapon's). If she beats the attacker's roll, the attack is parried, deflected, blocked or otherwise pushed aside harmlessly. Exertion points regenerate at a rate of 1/round normally, 1/3 rounds if fatigued or exhausted. This talent may not be used against attacks she loses her dexterity bonus against.

Intuition
Against hidden (via stealth, magic, concealment or other means) creatures or objects within 20 ft per talent she has (460 ft total) Queen Mordellen makes an unmodified perception check against their unmodified stealth/sleight of hand checks (if hidden via skill or the environment) or the unmodified caster/manifester/initiator level check (if hidden via other effects). If successful, she can pinpoint creatures within her range and know that an object has been hidden. She does not know what object has been hidden and hidden creatures still have any concealment or cover they'd normally get against her but she is not considered surprised or flat-footed against them. Failed intuition checks are retried every time a creature takes an action or every time an object is used. She does not get to retry against inactive creatures or objects.

Inspiring Leadership
Queen Mordellen plus 1 ally per 4 combat talents she possesses (total of 5) within 10 ft per talent (230 ft total) get a powerful boost to their combat ability from her heroic dedication and focus; they get a number of temporary HP equal to her number of combat talents (23), that are renewed at the beginning of their turn. These temporary HP are lost as soon as Queen Mordellen stops fighting for any reason, including the fight's end, retreating, incapacitation, death, surrender or magical control.

True Aim
For every combat talent she possesses, Queen Mordellen's melee and ranged attacks can penetrate a barrier 1 inch thick and still strike an enemy taking cover behind it for half damage. Alternatively, for every 5 talents she may reroll miss chances per attack due to concealment, incorporeality or magical effects (such as mirror image or blinking) and take the best roll.

Mounted Knight
Queen Mordellen may have an animal, magical beast or dragon of her CR or less as a mount. Said mounts are helpful but fine control depends on her riding skill or diplomacy (for intelligent mounts). Such mounts, unlike paladin mounts or animal companions, get no further benefits. Finding a new mount requires 1 day per point of the new mount's CR. Queen Mordellen usually employs a Red Wurm for a mount.

Warsmith
This talent allows Queen Mordellen to reforge magical or otherwise inherently valuable materials into magic items with normal craft checks without needing to cast magic spells or enchant items; she forges the materials' inherent power and quality into the new items instead. She can craft one weapon group, one armor or shield type, or items of a specific item slot per combat talent she possesses and can craft items of a caster level as high as her number of combat talents, and craft up to 300 gp per day per combat talent (6900 gp total). She needs to pay the costs for materials normally and, in the case of weapons and armor, make a craft: metalworking check for the masterwork item base. She cannot use this talent to craft slotless items, expendable items, spell completion or spell trigger items or rods.

Belial_the_Leveler
2013-11-14, 04:16 AM
No ideas on her CR, anyone?

tyckspoon
2013-11-14, 04:38 AM
No ideas on her CR, anyone?

Somewhere north of 20, but exactly where is not a definable point, IMO, not least because you're talking about Epic challenges then and everything goes screwy even before introducing homebrew. She's got a pretty decent spell/negative-effect protection, good AC, and if that's not enough the inherent ability to Wall of Blades, so I think she should be able to survive at least one round against most enemies.. and if she can survive one round, then she can Moment of Alacrity -> 10x White Raven Tactics herself, at which point anything that is vulnerable to being hit with swords at all should be quite dead. Or 4x White Raven turns plus 4x Time Stands Still attacks or Tombstone Strikes or whatever.

She has *very* low base numbers (ability scores, saves, damage-per-hit output) for that CR range, but the special abilities make it very difficult to leverage those flaws against her, so rather hard to give a decent estimate.

(Best I can say is, by the book, she's full-classed in a PC class, which gives a minimum CR of 20, and she's worth at least that - compare to a Balor or Pit Fiend, which I'm pretty sure she'd chew up easily. That's probably the best way you'll find to home in on the 'correct' CR, really; compare to Balors/Titans/Solars/ until you find the area where it seems like she'd actually have to do some work to compete, and that's about where her CR is.)

Belial_the_Leveler
2013-11-14, 02:31 PM
So, north or south of a lvl 20 optimized Pathfinder wizard?

CTrees
2013-11-14, 04:58 PM
Note that Pathfinder actually has a table for average monster statistics by CR, here (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/monster-creation#table-monster-statistics-by-cr). Obviously only a rough guideline, and various special abilities may change that a lot. However, from the primary table on that page, I'd definitely say that it's over CR 20, but also that it should be handle-able by a well played wizard (tier 1 being tier 1).

BloodyMartian
2013-11-15, 06:19 AM
Homebrew combined with high level make it hard to judge, but I'd call it CR 28 in a straight Pathfinder game.

Averis Vol
2013-11-15, 06:33 AM
Gonna have to agree with the chorus here; with the jumble of "if" abilities and situationally probable combat talents, it really is just a little up there. If I had a set list of maneuvers, this would be a bit easier, and as it seems she isn't restricted in those she can know, she could be grabbing shadow hand, iron heart and devoted spirit if she wanted. That increases the potential danger quite a bit. That being said, if it's just her, I would say a party of level 20s would wipe the floor with her simply due to action economy, and as tyckspoon said, her combat values aren't very high.

The best thing she has against a caster is that she can negate some spells per day. your wording makes little sense so I can't approximate how many, but lets say she can ignore two to three 9ths. While that's a big boon, she can't effectively kill the caster before they are able to hit her again.

So all in all, I would say she is worse than a level 20 optimised caster, but that would still put her at about cr 21-24 seeing as we have to account for class levels+special homebrew abilities, some of which aren't terribly amazing.

avr
2013-11-15, 06:33 AM
So, north or south of a lvl 20 optimized Pathfinder wizard?
That's not a well defined term either. Hundreds of planar bound demons? South. Dedicated item crafter with twice normal PC WBL spent wisely? South. Same but NPC wealth? North. Half decent but unimaginative battlefield controller? North. Really good battlefield controller? South. Etc.

You still need to define terms to compare.