Durkon's Power

[ScrapperTBP]

It seems to me that everyone on this forum (for the most part) seems to think that Durkon will kick butt in combat but we have yet to really see that at all.

The case could be made for him being cautious as it is still sunny but he couldn't have expected a dispel and the loss of his staff in such a coordinated move as just happened.

He will be safe from burning soon (assuming he survives) as dusk is fast-approaching, but he has seen very reluctant to do anything as of yet.

So my question is this: why is there still this expectation for him to dominate this fight. I thouhgt he'd would too but now not so much. He hasn't done anything apart from look angrily at Laurin. Even Belkar has got involved and he is almost dead. Your thoughts?

[dancrilis]

The case could be made for him being cautious as it is still sunny but he couldn't have expected a dispel and the loss of his staff in such a coordinated move as just happened.
He couldn't have expected a dispel and the loss of his staff ... that is what your going with.
...
He literally saw a few minutes ago that very thing happen to someone else.



So my question is this: why is there still this expectation for him to dominate this fight. I thouhgt he'd would too but now not so much. He hasn't done anything apart from look angrily at Laurin. Even Belkar has got involved and he is almost dead. Your thoughts?
This expectation was brought to you by Wishful Thinking(patent pending).

Durkon is a vampire and so gets +6 strength people assumed that this would make him the most combat capable member of the order.
However Roy is likely still stronger (with stat boosts) and has a better BAB and weapon.

Essentially being a vampire Durkon got some nice bonuses and abilities (and a very hefty level adjustment) - he didn't actually become that powerful.
In a fight with low level characters he might be better than the rest of the order combined - in a fight like this he is probably around the power he always was (meaning he should rely on his magic - which he doesn't have access to).

[Kornaki]

I wonder if he felt some requirement to not attack Tarquin's party out of respect for Malack. If so that feeling is now gone and we can expect him to jump back up and start whacking people (or dissolve into ashes in the next strip).

[ScrapperTBP]

He couldn't have expected a dispel and the loss of his staff ... that is what your going with.
...
He literally saw a few minutes ago that very thing happen to someone else.

My point was that he has changed. As I also mentioned Belkar is a hit from death and he is still jumping in. It would be much easier for them to kill Belkar than it would be for them to kill Durkon. When Belkar is being more of a team player than Durkon you can see their respective shifts.

[Nimin]

He couldn't have expected a dispel and the loss of his staff ... that is what your going with.
...
He literally saw a few minutes ago that very thing happen to someone else.

What he saw was a rogue disarming Malack and a wizard dispelling his protections, all the while being distracted and ambushed. The situation was a bit different here (In fact, I don't understand why he'd lose his staff upon being hit by V/Tarquin, or even blown his concentration check on using a magical charge).


This expectation was brought to you by Wishful Thinking(patent pending).

Durkon is a vampire and so gets +6 strength people assumed that this would make him the most combat capable member of the order.
However Roy is likely still stronger (with stat boosts) and has a better BAB and weapon.

Essentially being a vampire Durkon got some nice bonuses and abilities (and a very hefty level adjustment) - he didn't actually become that powerful.
In a fight with low level characters he might be better than the rest of the order combined - in a fight like this he is probably around the power he always was (meaning he should rely on his magic - which he doesn't have access to).

Durkon held his own against Tarquin himself, even getting praised by him for his melee-worthy. Str boost, Dex boost, AC boost, damage resistance, fast healing... there are plenty of reasons to expect him to have become "that powerful" in melee combat.

[dancrilis]

Durkon held his own against Tarquin himself, even getting praised by him for his melee-worthy. Str boost, Con boost, damage resistance, fast healing... there are plenty of reasons to expect him to have become "that powerful" in melee combat.

It is likely that Durkon boosted himself in preparation for the ambush, Tarquin also handed him easily (and deliberately let him live seemingly).
Further Durkon did not get a CON boost (at all) - he did not get additional hitpoints.
He went from likely 8+Xd8+Y to 12+Xd12.
Assuming he moved like this:
8+13d8+70= ~137
12+13d12= ~97

He just lost 40 hit points, his damage reduction is mostly meaningless in this fight, his fast healing is also, natural armour same.
Essentially he is effectively the Durkon of old without his spells and less HP.

[Muenster Man]

Durkon held his own against Tarquin himself, even getting praised by him for his melee-worthy. Str boost, Con boost, damage resistance, fast healing... there are plenty of reasons to expect him to have become "that powerful" in melee combat.

No Con boost, in fact his Con is -- and he likely lost hit points during the transformation. You're probably thinking of a Dex boost (which he likely can't use thanks to his armor).

But he should be a more effective melee combatant, maybe not on par with Tarquin or Roy, but at least fairly close. The only thing holding him back is his seeming lack of initiative (and I'm not talking about a poor die roll).

[Nimin]

his damage reduction is mostly meaningless in this fight,his fast healing is also, natural armour same.
Huh? And why would that be? :smallconfused:
Had he challenged Tarquin and his puny little dagger he wouldn't have drawn out V of the sky, or stabbed Roy and Elan.
He engaged and held down Tarquin once, why couldn't he do it now that he's a much better melee fighter?


Essentially he is effectively the Durkon of old without his spells and less HP.
One big fat NOPE to this. There's a reason if the vampire template adds +6 to his CL, ignoring everything for the sake of -dunno- isn't gonna change that. :smallsigh:

[dancrilis]

Huh? And why would that be? :smallconfused:

Because his damage reduction does not function against spells, nor does his natural armour, his fast healing does not heal fast enough to make much difference to the level of damage a party like Tarquin's can put out.



Had he challenged Tarquin and his puny little dagger he wouldn't have drawn out V of the sky, or stabbed Roy and Elan.
He engaged and held down Tarquin once, why couldn't he do it now that he's a much better melee fighter?

He didn't hold him down - Tarquin walked away, without taking a hit.
He is not a much better melee fighter if armed exactly the same he would have +3 to hit and +3 damage.
He is not armed exactly the same - we don't even know where his hammer is.



One big fat NOPE to this. There's a reason if the vampire template adds +6 to his CL, ignoring everything for the sake of -dunno- isn't gonna change that. :smallsigh:
Ok ... I have no idea what you mean by CL, I know if is not (should not be) caster level, class level or character level.
I also know it it not Challenge Rating (which increased by 2) or level adjustment which went up by +8.

But lets ignore all that - how does having the vampire template help him in this fight against a high level psion, high level wizard (with greater dispel), and a high level fighter possibly capable of likely taking away all his hit points in a single round?

[Nimin]

Because his damage reduction does not function against spells, nor does his natural armour, his fast healing does not heal fast enough to make much difference to the level of damage a party like Tarquin's can put out.
I didn't say anything about him fighting spellcasters, it's a restriction you made while my point is that even without spells he could have at least kept Tarquin busy instead of doing absolutely nothing.


He didn't hold him down - Tarquin walked away, without taking a hit.
He is not a much better melee fighter if armed exactly the same he would have +3 to hit and +3 damage.
Thog became an almost-unstoppable war machine once he zerked, going by this logic he shouldn't have been THAT powerful either.


He is not armed exactly the same - we don't even know where his hammer is.
Neither is Tarquin, so point stands.


Ok ... I have no idea what you mean by CL, I know if is not (should not be) caster level, class level or character level.
I also know it it not Challenge Rating (which increased by 2) or level adjustment which went up by +8.
Meant the +8 level adjustement. It's there for a reason, saying that Durkon's "just the same but with no spell" in this circumstance simply isn't correct. He's in a better shape than ever to keep Tarquin reasonably engaged while the rest of the Order deals with Laurin.


But lets ignore all that - how does having the vampire template help him in this fight against a high level psion, high level wizard (with greater dispel), and a high level fighter possibly capable of likely taking away all his hit points in a single round?

Had he challenged Tarquin and his puny little dagger he wouldn't have drawn out V of the sky, or stabbed Roy and Elan.
As said a number of times up until now.

[dancrilis]

I didn't say anything about him fighting spellcasters, it's a restriction you made while my point is that even without spells he could have at least kept Tarquin busy instead of doing absolutely nothing.
Had he engaged and been a real threat Laurin could dispel his protections while Miron suppresses the staff - killing Durkon with no change of surviving.


Thog became an almost-unstoppable war machine once he zerked, going by this logic he shouldn't have been THAT powerful either.
I have no idea which feats he had - I also suspect that he is a higher level than Roy. They were both armed with non-magical equipment (poor quality non-magic equipment).
As such bonuses count more.
However story trumps rules - it was better that Thog's rage affected him as it did rather than not. However Durkon is a permanent member of the Order so making him great - just to make him great - may not suit the giants needs. And the rules support that he would not be that great.


Neither is Tarquin, so point stands.
No those are completely different points.
Tarquin specifically mentioned that Durkon was skilled with a weapon and shield - a possible indication that Durkon has particular skill with that combination.


Meant the +8 level adjustement. It's there for a reason, saying that Durkon's "just the same but with no spell" in this circumstance simply isn't correct. He's in a better shape than ever to keep Tarquin reasonably engaged while the rest of the Order deals with Laurin.

Firstly the +8 level adjustment indicates how potent he is from a story perspective. It states to a GM that if they allow someone to play a vampire they will have an affect on the game to the same extent as if they find a book of 'Automatically Gain 8 Levels'.
However there is more to a game than combat - Durkon is now an excellent spy and information gatherer, the level adjustment covers that, he is perfect against low level opponents, the level adjustment covers that, or to sum up he has a lot of powers that can be used in inventive ways, the level adjustment covers that.
Pure direct combat? He would be better with the book of 'Automatically Gain 8 Levels'.
What you should likely be looking at for this scenario is Challenge Rating which he gained a +2 in - do his bonuses help him? Yes they do. Do they make him the most powerful member of the Order of the Stick? Probably not in this arena.

Having said all that here is my take on the fight.
Durkon: In a couple of minutes the sun will go down and I can act with a lot more conviction - but I am not risking myself until than in a fight that can easily kill me.

If the sun goes down and Durkon kills Laurin, Tarquin, and Miron returns with the rest of the party and Durkon slaughters them all too - good and well I am sure the Giant will deliver it in a meaningful and story driven way.
Similarly if Durkon goes up against Tarquin and Tarquin destroys his form without breaking a sweat I am sure the Giant will deliver it in a meaningful and story driven way also.
The second is more likely based on the rules.


Had he challenged Tarquin and his puny little dagger he wouldn't have drawn out V of the sky, or stabbed Roy and Elan.
I doubt that any weapon that Tarquin wields can be considered puny.
Hell a Dagger of Greater Dispel Magic would be exactly the kind of thing I could see Tarquin having.

[Kish]

It seems to me that everyone on this forum (for the most part) seems to think that Durkon will kick butt in combat but we have yet to really see that at all.
Guessing, from the rest of your post, you mean we have yet to see it in this combat.

Why is there the expectation for him to dominate in combat?

Because he usually does on the rare occasions he takes center stage: with the very first use of Thor's Might in the battle with Xykon's goblins, when he singlehandedly defeated the bandit chief after the rest of the Order had been defeated, when he smacked down Leeky Windstaff.

Because he's the only person in the whole fight with Tarquin, Laurin, and Miron who has, for some reason, apparently just been standing there the whole time. That Elan hasn't been trying to fight at all is...unwise, in my opinion, but Elan is unwise, and he wants to do anything but actually act like an action hero in front of his father--and up until he became a Dashing Swordsman, all he did in most combats was sometimes sing. That Durkon hasn't been attacking, just kind of standing there going, "I dinnae have any magic, I dinnae know anything about having a massive Strength bonus from bein' a vampire, I nae be participatin' in this fight at all" stands out like a sore thumb.

Because whenever an at-all-tense comic goes up, a dozen improbable theories pop up for what will happen next. "Durkon will suddenly remember that he's a vampire, not a geist, and kick some butt" is far less improbable than most.

[Nimin]

Had he engaged and been a real threat Laurin could dispel his protections while Miron suppresses the staff - killing Durkon with no change of surviving.
And I could say that with Miron already gone Durkon could simply recast the protection again and again either keeping Lauring tangled on dispelling him or Tarquin engaged in combat... but this is the realm of fanfiction we're venturing and I'm not gonna go there.


I have no idea which feats he had - I also suspect that he is a higher level than Roy. They were both armed with non-magical equipment (poor quality non-magic equipment).
As such bonuses count more.
Not to the point of breaking walls and making craters with his bare arms when he clearly couldn't prior of zerking.
You said that a +3 +3 wouldn't make much of a difference, but this very story proves otherwise.


No those are completely different points.
Tarquin specifically mentioned that Durkon was skilled with a weapon and shield - a possible indication that Durkon has particular skill with that combination.
Or not. Point remains: neither Durkon nor Tarquin are wielding their optimal favoured weapons, but why that would put only Durkon at disvantage is beyond me.
If anything it'd level the field more, giving their base stats a more deciding factor EXACTLY as the Thog vs. Roy fight showed.


Firstly the +8 level adjustment indicates how potent he is from a story perspective. It states to a GM that if they allow someone to play a vampire they will have an affect on the game to the same extent as if they find a book of 'Automatically Gain 8 Levels'.
However there is more to a game than combat - Durkon is now an excellent spy and information gatherer, the level adjustment covers that, he is perfect against low level opponents, the level adjustment covers that, or to sum up he has a lot of powers that can be used in inventive ways, the level adjustment covers that.
Pure direct combat? He would be better with the book of 'Automatically Gain 8 Levels'.
What you should likely be looking at for this scenario is Challenge Rating which he gained a +2 in - do his bonuses help him? Yes they do. Do they make him the most powerful member of the Order of the Stick? Probably not in this arena.
I'm contented with seeing you admit that this isn't just "same old Durkon without his spells". :smallsmile:

[dancrilis]

And I could say that with Miron already gone Durkon could simply recast the protection again and again either keeping Lauring tangled on dispelling him or Tarquin engaged in combat... but this is the realm of fanfiction we're venturing and I'm not gonna go there.
Miron leaving has literally only just happened, there wasn't time for him to do anything.


Not to the point of breaking walls and making craters with his bare arms when he clearly couldn't prior of zerking.
You said that a +3 +3 wouldn't make much of a difference, but this very story proves otherwise.

Actually breaking things and cratering areas can be done with raw strength, it is after all a strength roll - but that is substancially different than damaging a person.


Or not. Point remains: neither Durkon nor Tarquin are wielding their optimal favoured weapons, but why that would put only Durkon at disvantage is beyond me.
If anything it'd level the field more, giving their base stats a more deciding factor EXACTLY as the Thog vs. Roy fight showed.

Tarquin does not have an optimal weapon that we can be sure of - he seems to use them as he needs rather than favouring only one. To clarify I mean this from a purely combat perspective.
In fact the weapon he has been most effective with has been his dagger.



I'm contented with seeing you admit that this isn't just "same old Durkon without his spells". :smallsmile:
Well to a very minor extend it isn't he has likely less hit points but a greater strength score - I personally think in this case the hit points would likely be more useful.
But the old Durkon and low on spells would have been much more useful for this fight (in my opinion).

[orrion]

Because he usually does on the rare occasions he takes center stage: with the very first use of Thor's Might in the battle with Xykon's goblins, when he singlehandedly defeated the bandit chief after the rest of the Order had been defeated, when he smacked down Leeky Windstaff.


Nitpick!

Durkon beating the bandit chief had absolutely nothing to do with melee combat. Or any combat, really.

[Kish]

Nitpick!

Durkon beating the bandit chief had absolutely nothing to do with melee combat. Or any combat, really.
Neither I, nor the post I responded to, said anything about melee combat.

"Or any combat, really" is a matter of opinion; regardless of the unintended nature of that combat on Durkon's part, I think the bandit chief felt pretty combated when a tree fell on his head.

[Nimin]

Miron leaving has literally only just happened, there wasn't time for him to do anything.
You're kind of missing the point here.


Actually breaking things and cratering areas can be done with raw strength, it is after all a strength roll - but that is substancially different than damaging a person.
Point remains. Thog zerked and trashed Roy, just with those measly +3 +3 or so buffs you dismissed.


Tarquin does not have an optimal weapon that we can be sure of - he seems to use them as he needs rather than favouring only one. To clarify I mean this from a purely combat perspective.
In fact the weapon he has been most effective with has been his dagger.
Neither does Durkon, so point stands.

[dancrilis]

You're kind of missing the point here.

Than please clarify it.


Point remains. Thog zerked and trashed Roy, just with those measly +3 +3 or so buffs you dismissed.
Thog's first action was to disarm Roy by knowing him backwards - after that assuming Thog has Improved Unarmed Attack the bonus differences were much higher (assuming Roy doesn't).
I think that fight showed that Thog is a much better unarmed fighter than Roy.



Neither does Durkon, so point stands.
I may be missing your point here also - please clarify.
Mine was that Durkon has ancestral weapons he has never been without and has a comment saying that he is skilled with weapon and shield (the latter of which you used to justify him being good in a fight).
As such it is not unreasonable to assume that he is optimised with them.
Meanwhile Tarquin was using an axe that he had somewhere in storage.
Now Durkon is a vampire deprived on his regular weapons and defence and Tarquin is wielding his everyday default weapon.

Now I don't know if you actually play RPGs but the default weapon that someone uses is commonly the best weapon they have (assuming it doesn't have a cost per use).
For all we know the core power of the axe is that is gives him darkvision - useful where he was likely to be going so decided to get it out for use.

[Nimin]

Than please clarify it.
Miron's presence wasn't the point. Either with or without him you can't say how the battle would have played out if Durkon jumped into the fray.


Thog's first action was to disarm Roy by knowing him backwards - after that assuming Thog has Improved Unarmed Attack the bonus differences were much higher (assuming Roy doesn't).
I think that fight showed that Thog is a much better unarmed fighter than Roy.
Thog didn't "disarm" anyone, he raged and hit hard, that's it. We cannot know what feats Thog has or doesn't have, we can only base ourselves on actual eye proofs: Roy being trashed by his mere change from non-zerked-->zerked, which implies a stat boost, not some unknown feat we never had indication of.

The Giant didn't make a big point about "skillful unarmed Thog", he made it of how powerful Berserke'd Thog was.



I may be missing your point here also - please clarify.
Mine was that Durkon has ancestral weapons he has never been without and has a comment saying that he is skilled with weapon and shield (the latter of which you used to justify him being good in a fight).
As such it is not unreasonable to assume that he is optimised with them.
Meanwhile Tarquin was using an axe that he had somewhere in storage.
Now Durkon is a vampire deprived on his regular weapons and defence and Tarquin is wielding his everyday default weapon.
You're... kidding me right?
Tarquin's favourite weapon is pretty much agreed on to be 2-handed weapons, both in his adventuring days to his conquering days to his Oots Engaging days he's always been show choosing a 2 handed weapon when handling serious business.
So now you're telling me that Durkon having always fought with hammer and shield proves that's he's optimized for that (and also implying that he'd be worthless without them), but several year-long examples of Tarquin fighting with a weapon other than his current knife doesn't?

I smell double standards here, and I don't like it one bit.

[dancrilis]

Miron's presence wasn't the point. Either with or without him you can't say how the battle would have played out if Durkon jumped into the fray.
So?


Thog didn't "disarm" anyone, he raged and hit hard, that's it.
Did you miss the bit where Roy dropped his sword?
That happens when you are disarmed or when you voluntarily drop your sword (and a few other cases).
However being hit is not one of them.
However most of that fight was (as mentioned) done for the sake of the scene - and it played very well for that.
But let us ignore that for one second - Durkon without being a vampire is likely much weaker than Thog normally.
Durkon as a vampire? likely weaker than Thog normally.
Take the standard array for ability scores.
1st level Durkon: Wis: 15, Con 16, Str: 13, Cha: 12, Int: 10, Dex: 8
12th level Durkon: Wis: 18 (rest same).
1st level Thog: Str: 17, Con 14, Cha: 11, Dex: 12, Wis: 10, Int: 6
12th level Thog: Str 20
12th Vampire Durkon: Str 19
Thog at rest is still actually stronger (and with a full BAB).

Durkon was not able to hit Tarquin before - a plus three modifier might make exactly no difference to that (or it might make all the difference - but there is no reason to assume that).
And either way he would still hit less often than Thog or Roy in all likelihood.


You're... kidding me right?
I have never really understood why people ask that kind of question - if I were kidding would asking me make me admit it?
Whether I was or not would you be able to trust an answer?
It seems a wholly meaningless question in this circumstance.


So now you're telling me that Durkon having always fought with hammer and shield proves that's he's optimized for that (and also implying that he'd be worthless without them), but several year-long examples of Tarquin fighting with a weapon other than his current knife doesn't?
You mentioned that Tarquin complimented Durkon on his abilities (which were likely buffed with magic for an ambush) - I pointed out he complimented him on a specific skill set - as such if Durkon is decent at combat without magic it would stand to reason that he might have taken some bonuses to that fighting style.
Tarquin however likes to be versatile I suspect that he mixes it up a bit and uses different weapons a lot. We have seen him with a dagger, a one handed sword and shield, an axe and a whip.
What his preference is? Well you guess axe - maybe your right, but if so why didn't he have someone pick up another one from the Empire of Blood, surely he would have more than one even if the second is a lesser weapon.

Durkon's vampire abilities are not that impressive in this fight (much less than his magic would be) why people assume he could be a significant frontline fighter is puzzling to me. Before being a vampire he was likely the third in line of front line ability - now he might be joint second (with Belkar - but it is a toss up).
Rules wise he isn't much better - I would say balanced, there is reason to say he is worse - in this scenario. So there is no reason to suspect he would be dominating the scene anymore than if he was alive.

[Nimin]

So?
So he could have engaged Tarquin with good results, and there's nothing saying he would have been instantly trumped as you seemed to suggest.


Did you miss the bit where Roy dropped his sword?
I certainly didn't miss the huge explosion all around Thog as he raged, which coincidently managed to throw Roy's sword away along with debris, sand, rocks, Thog's armor and Roy himself.
That's no disarm.


Durkon was not able to hit Tarquin before - a plus three modifier might make exactly no difference to that (or it might make all the difference - but there is no reason to assume that).
There's no reason to assume the contrary either, and certainly it wouldn't make him worse of a melee than he was before.


I have never really understood why people ask that kind of question - if I were kidding would asking me make me admit it?
Whether I was or not would you be able to trust an answer?
It seems a wholly meaningless question in this circumstance.
Rrrrright.


You mentioned that Tarquin complimented Durkon on his abilities (which were likely buffed with magic for an ambush) - I pointed out he complimented him on a specific skill set - as such if Durkon is decent at combat without magic it would stand to reason that he might have taken some bonuses to that fighting style.
Tarquin however likes to be versatile I suspect that he mixes it up a bit and uses different weapons a lot. We have seen him with a dagger, a one handed sword and shield, an axe and a whip.
What his preference is? Well you guess axe - maybe your right, but if so why didn't he have someone pick up another one from the Empire of Blood, surely he would have more than one even if the second is a lesser weapon.
I guess 2handed. He's been shown using that more than ever, with the knife only used for executions and when playing soft.
I suggest we put this particular argument aside until the next few strips, so that you'll see him fighting with yet another 2-handed (and not the puny knife).


Durkon's vampire abilities are not that impressive in this fight (much less than his magic would be) why people assume he could be a significant frontline fighter is puzzling to me.
It's been explained to hell and beyond. Always proved to be a competent melee, good armor, Str, Dex, Ac Bonus, Fast Regeneration, Damage reduction... it all spells Frontline Fighter in big bolds letter.

[Kish]

I guess 2handed.
Two-handed is not a weapon. There's no such thing as Weapon Focus: Two-Handed or Improved Critical: Two-Handed. Tarquin has used a dagger, a whip, a greataxe, a one-handed sword that appeared to be a long sword, and picked up Roy's greatsword to finish him off. Based on that my conclusion would be that Tarquin's mostly-defensive feat build has avoided any dependency on any particular weapon type. You apparently view it differently, but his favorite weapon is most definitely not generally agreed to be "two-handed weapons."

[Gift Jeraff]

Ever since he became a vampire, Durkon seems to really suck at combat.

[orrion]

Neither I, nor the post I responded to, said anything about melee combat.

"Or any combat, really" is a matter of opinion; regardless of the unintended nature of that combat on Durkon's part, I think the bandit chief felt pretty combated when a tree fell on his head.

Melee combat is implied because that's where he just got heavily boosted from the vampire bonuses, such as the level draining slam attack and the damage reduction.

Moreover, melee combat is implied because the examples you gave were melee combat. He beat down Xykon's goblins and beat down Leeky after the Control Weather. His vampire abilities don't boost anything he did in those examples.. except his melee capabilities.

And c'mon. Durkon wasn't even aiming at the bandit chief. It was hilarious, but it wasn't a fight.

[Nimin]

Two-handed is not a weapon. There's no such thing as Weapon Focus: Two-Handed or Improved Critical: Two-Handed. Tarquin has used a dagger, a whip, a greataxe, a one-handed sword that appeared to be a long sword, and picked up Roy's greatsword to finish him off. Based on that my conclusion would be that Tarquin's mostly-defensive feat build has avoided any dependency on any particular weapon type. You apparently view it differently, but his favorite weapon is most definitely not generally agreed to be "two-handed weapons."

You're right on that, I was more thinking of the old rulebooks about specializing in styles rather than single weapons.

[Kish]

Melee combat is implied because that's where he just got heavily boosted from the vampire bonuses, such as the level draining slam attack and the damage reduction.

Something else I didn't say anything about. I'm sorry, but no. You should stop telling me what argument I should make and make the argument you wish to see made yourself.


Moreover, melee combat is implied because the examples you gave were melee combat.

...That makes absolutely no sense. You're saying, "This example you gave is not melee combat, therefore it is invalid, because the examples you gave were melee combat." Huh?


And c'mon. Durkon wasn't even aiming at the bandit chief. It was hilarious, but it wasn't a fight.
If I rephrased my initial post in this dialogue to, "People have expected Durkon to kick ass because whenever he takes center stage that's what he has done," would you stop objecting to it? Because I'm afraid I'm finding your objections really hard to understand. Durkon does not look less impressive because he wasn't even trying to fight when he--in the view of the other people there--single-handedly conquered the bandit camp.

"I got naught left for magic" combined with the fact that in each round of the combat we've seen so far (the combat with Tarquin, Miron, and Laurin), Durkon has been doing nothing, implies that Durkon considers himself powerless without his spells, and yet...that makes no sense. He never shunned melee combat before. Something weird has changed, beyond the obvious. The living Durkon, out of spells and with lower Strength and Dexterity than Vampire Durkon, would have charged Miron and smacked him with his hammer when he understood the battle plan to be "gang pile on scarf guy."

[Grogmir]

There's obviously a lot of knowledgeable peeps about 3.5 on this thread (which I haven't played for years)

But I just wanted to point out that Durkula hasn't yet had the chance to regain spells that suit his new, um... Condition.

Furthermore Roy looks so badass, because most of the time D is healing him off panel.

On paper Durkula is right up there with V in power. Roy is an exceptional case for a fighter. Mostly likely you would have to use a very homeruled method for stat generation to get him as decent as he is.

[dancrilis]

So he could have engaged Tarquin with good results, and there's nothing saying he would have been instantly trumped as you seemed to suggest.
I am assuming you are using a broad definition of could.


I certainly didn't miss the huge explosion all around Thog as he raged, which coincidently managed to throw Roy's sword away along with debris, sand, rocks, Thog's armor and Roy himself.
That's no disarm.

It disarmed Roy - how it occurred from a rules perspective is unknown. My own assumption is that Thog has the feat "Thog's Amazing Rage Feat".


There's no reason to assume the contrary either, and certainly it wouldn't make him worse of a melee than he was before.

Actually hit points it is likely much worse.
Ignoring that your assumption is faulty - when going against a character that you can't hit the safe assumption is that a +3 bonus would not make a reliable difference.
In fact assuming that Durkon hits on a 20 (but legitimatly hits on it), than the +3 allows him to hit 20% of the time rather than 5%. However if he only hits on a twenty because of the natural twenty rules than he might still only have a 5% chance.
When dealing with a character that is defensive like Tarquin expecting a natural 20 to still be needed it not entirely unreasonable from a mid-level character without a full BaB.


It's been explained to hell and beyond. Always proved to be a competent melee, good armor, Str, Dex, Ac Bonus, Fast Regeneration, Damage reduction... it all spells Frontline Fighter in big bolds letter.
Ok have you ever played DnD? And are you familiar with the d20 system?

To put it simply:
Durkon has proved competent in melee against non-frontline fighters.
Armour is largely meaningless compared to a full BaB unless it is really focused.
Strength give him a plus three to hit - but he was starting from nowhere (that we are aware of) so he is likely basically still nowhere.
Dexterity is meaningless in to Durkon (in nearly every way).
AC bonus: See Armour
Fast Regeneration: Not fast enough to matter.
Damage Reduction*: Not enough to matter against a front line fighter.
*This may have mattered assuming that Tarquin's is not ready for damage reduction and if he continued to use his knife.

Rules wise Durkon trying to tank Tarquin would likely have him dead in one or two rounds without achieving anything.

Now story beats rules - and beats them by such a margin that rules would not only not know what hit them but not even know that the fight occurred.

If the Giant wants Durkon to dominate in combat without spells I look forward to seeing it - if he has him sit back cautiously and only get front and centre when absolutely needed (as Durkon historically did with his spells) I look forward to that also.
If he has Durkon get over-confident and try to pick a fight with a full BaB class without using his magic - it would suit the rules, and possible be fully flavoursome for someone getting used to having much more strength than they formerly used to. And so I look forward to that also.

But people on the forum saying that Durkon is great in combat kindof need to support it with evidence - and pointing at a +6 characteristic and some side bonuses is not anywhere near enough.
Could Durkon take Tarquin's entire army easier than Tarquin could - yes probably his abilities are great for that.
Could he take Tarquin directly? From a rules perspective he should not even be close.
Will he take Tarquin directly in anything approaching a fair fight? That is a story matter.

Now Durkon could have engages Miron or Laurin - he could have made a difference there. But there immediate action would likely be to dispel on him, and intelligent evil people don't like to risk annihilation as readily as intelligent good people do (as a general rule - there are of course exceptions).

[Jasdoif]

Further Durkon did not get a CON boost (at all) - he did not get additional hitpoints.
He went from likely 8+Xd8+Y to 12+Xd12.
Assuming he moved like this:
8+13d8+70= ~137
12+13d12= ~97

He just lost 40 hit points, his damage reduction is mostly meaningless in this fight, his fast healing is also, natural armour same.
Essentially he is effectively the Durkon of old without his spells and less HP.I'm curious why you're assuming Durkon had Con 20, here. It seems unlikely that he had the highest possible starting Constitution score for a dwarf.

Assuming he instead had Con 14, slightly above average for a dwarf, he'd have...8+13d8+28, averaging around 95 hit points. So he'd have gained a couple hit points by becoming a vampire.


The exact impact of losing his Con score is dependent on what it was...the lower the score, the better off Durkon is now. And I really can't recall anything in the comic suggesting it was out of the ordinary in either direction.

[dancrilis]

I'm curious why you're assuming Durkon had Con 20, here. It seems unlikely that he had the highest possible starting Constitution score for a dwarf.

Assuming a standard array where he assigned the 14 to Con he would have begun with 16 for being a dwarf. Accounting for Con boosting gear this happily take it to a nice round 20.
Could he have lower sure, but 20 is not unreasonable.

[Souhiro]

First thing first, Durkon is now, indeed, and "in the numbers and statistics" the most powerful member of the order: Huge bonus, DRs, Regeneration, At-Will powers...

Of course, gaining 8 levels due vampirism is worse than gaining 8 straight levels in cleric. Everybody knows that, and that is not because "Casters trumphs all", it's because he has build himself as a caster, and Vampiric Powers aren't the best suited for a Cleric.

But as Xukon said "Power equals to power", so even altough "Story trumphs all", Durkon's new powers can be the greatest asset that The Order has.

Also Durkon was defeated by a trained coordinated maneouver between Laurie an Tarquin. And I'm pretty sure that Tarquin has trained maneouvers with Miron, and with the (late) Malak, to defeat Laurie in case she went rogue. He just changed the "Dispel the from the lizard's protections" to "Dispel the dwarf's protections"

[Nimin]

I am assuming you are using a broad definition of could.
Nope. Standard meaning.


It disarmed Roy - how it occurred from a rules perspective is unknown. My own assumption is that Thog has the feat "Thog's Amazing Rage Feat".
Regardless it was a side effect. He didn't need to "disarm" him to level the field, his rage already made him a nigh unstoppable war machine. He made no decisions at that as you tried to imply.


Actually hit points it is likely much worse.
Ignoring that your assumption is faulty - when going against a character that you can't hit the safe assumption is that a +3 bonus would not make a reliable difference.
In fact assuming that Durkon hits on a 20 (but legitimatly hits on it), than the +3 allows him to hit 20% of the time rather than 5%. However if he only hits on a twenty because of the natural twenty rules than he might still only have a 5% chance.
When dealing with a character that is defensive like Tarquin expecting a natural 20 to still be needed it not entirely unreasonable from a mid-level character without a full BaB.
I see that you still keep missing this point. By now I already said multiple times the words "engaging" "fighting" "keeping busy" and so on and so forth, never once I implied him winning, all it takes is for him to keep Tarquin fighting him and not the others (just as he did in the smoke), and to that all the feats I mentioned -expecially Damage Red and Fast Healing- work wonders against a simple dagger, or at the very least wouldn't make him worse.

I'm skipping the rest because you wrote it on the false assumption that I meant Durkon trumping Tarquin or something along the lines, while I did not.

[luchifer]

But as Xukon said "Power equals to power", so even altough "Story trumphs all", Durkon's new powers can be the greatest asset that The Order has.



Power equals power referes as Power in the form of a listen check, or in case of Malack, defeat by the power of the sun, or as everything within your reach to defeat your enemy.

And never forget, OOTS already defeated Xykon using the power of random luck.

[dancrilis]

Nope. Standard meaning.
Apologies the standard definition happens to be fairly broad.
It is within the bounds of conceivability that:
The centre of the sun could be made of army ants.
- Unlikely but the 'could' allows for it.


I see that you still keep missing this point. By now I already said multiple times the words "engaging" "fighting" "keeping busy" and so on and so forth, never once I implied him winning, all it takes is for him to keep Tarquin fighting him and not the others (just as he did in the smoke), and to that all the feats I mentioned -expecially Damage Red and Fast Healing- work wonders against a simple dagger, or at the very least wouldn't make him worse.

And I have said that he could have died in a single round or two.
And that could is on the statistically likely side.


I'm skipping the rest because you wrote it on the false assumption that I meant Durkon trumping Tarquin or something along the lines, while I did not.
Actually I don't believe I mentioned winning. There was a line in the section you skipped which could be interpreted that way - but as you skipped it you could not be referring to that.

But I will summarise:
In combat with high level characters Durkon is not significantly better than he was prior to being a vampire, and he may in fact be worse. Durkon pre-vampire with access to his spells is almost certainly better than Durkon as a vampire without them.


First thing first, Durkon is now, indeed, and "in the numbers and statistics" the most powerful member of the order: Huge bonus, DRs, Regeneration, At-Will powers...

Of course, gaining 8 levels due vampirism is worse than gaining 8 straight levels in cleric. Everybody knows that, and that is not because "Casters trumphs all", it's because he has build himself as a caster, and Vampiric Powers aren't the best suited for a Cleric.

But as Xukon said "Power equals to power", so even altough "Story trumphs all", Durkon's new powers can be the greatest asset that The Order has.


True but in this particular fight his vampire template is fairly useless.
Overall impact on a story Dominate at will might be more powerful than 8 additional levels - still seemingly useless here - although it might have been what Durkon was attempting and why he was sitting back.
Durkon's additional power has a time and place and that place is not high level combat - now once (or more so if) he gets his spells back he might take ones that really make good use of it, but he had no such option here.

[Nimin]

Actually I don't believe I mentioned winning. There was a line in the section you skipped which could be interpreted that way - but as you skipped it you could not be referring to that.
You made a full blown analysis about how Durkon couldn't effectively hit Tarquin - while all I'm talking about is him simply lasting long enough against him thanks to his newly acquired vampire boosts.

And skipping something doesn't mean haven't read them.

[Souhiro]

Well, at least, Durkon has gained WIS+2. It's at least one spell more than before.

Also, In "Against one Big Guy" he can use the "Energy Drain" hability: that would have turned the tables... should he be able to use it!
(two negative levels every hit? and every turn? Laurie would lose a bajillon Power Points and a few Psychic Powers, or Tarquin would find harder to land blows, and start losing his feats like crazy. When he lose his Infinite Deflection, Haley could finally attack him with her bow!)

Tee hee...

Durkon could energy drain Redcloak, again, and again, and again, till he die.
Then make it his Thrall,
Then torture it to death, and since a thrall doesn't have any will, raise him (He would come back as a gobbo, not as his thrall, but the thralldom wouldn't break until then) and repeat the process until there isn't many redcloak to torture, nor kill.

[dancrilis]

Well, at least, Durkon has gained WIS+2. It's at least one spell more than before.

Also, In "Against one Big Guy" he can use the "Energy Drain" hability: that would have turned the tables... should he be able to use it!
(two negative levels every hit? and every turn? Laurie would lose a bajillon Power Points and a few Psychic Powers, or Tarquin would find harder to land blows, and start losing his feats like crazy. When he lose his Infinite Deflection, Haley could finally attack him with her bow!)

Tee hee...

Durkon could energy drain Redcloak, again, and again, and again, till he die.
Then make it his Thrall,
Then torture it to death, and since a thrall doesn't have any will, raise him (He would come back as a gobbo, not as his thrall, but the thralldom wouldn't break until then) and repeat the process until there isn't many redcloak to torture, nor kill.

Well Redcloak has a ring of immunity - so that is unlikely.
Energy Drain could turn the tables - if he can get it off - similarly Dominate Person could turn the tables, if he could get it off.
The second is much better at turning the tables than the first and less risky.
His +2 Wis is nice for him, but not relevant in this fight.

[Kish]

Tee hee...

Durkon could energy drain Redcloak, again, and again, and again, till he die.
Then make it his Thrall,
Then torture it to death, and since a thrall doesn't have any will, raise him (He would come back as a gobbo, not as his thrall, but the thralldom wouldn't break until then) and repeat the process until there isn't many redcloak to torture, nor kill.
...Thoroughly creepy.

[Nimin]

...Thoroughly creepy.

...Also awesome, in it's own way.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Disarming isn't the only way for someone to drop their weapon. Being stunned does it, as does various other effects that have absolutely nothing to do with disarming.

Laurin did not "disarm" Roy a few strips ago. And yet, to the ground his sword went.



And unless Tarquin's dagger is silver and magic, Durkon's DR factors in just fine. And his fast healing does, regardless. The strip's shown us just recently that +6 str is a big freaking deal, and Durkon was no slouch in melee before. The boon from Vampire is nearly identical to the one Righteous Thor's Might gives.

Not that Durkon even had to toe-to-toe with Tarquin, he could've harassed the manifester, too. Instead, he opted to not do anything at all.

People claim he kept a low profile to avoid getting the sunlight protection dispelled (despite having the staff right there in hand to re-cast it)? Yeah, look how that turned out for him. Would it have made a difference if he had bothered to freaking *try* at all? Maybe not, but he sure wouldn't have been any worse off than he is now. In particular, he was standing right next to Tarquin right before T used his whip on V. Using a whip while threatened in melee provokes. Just one example of how things could have easily turned out differently if he had attempted to fight AT ALL.

In the end, the most infuriating part of it isn't whether it would've made a difference, though. It's that his best friend is in severe danger of dying and he's not even willing to get off his pity party (waaah, I'm out of spells!) to try to save him. Belkar doesn't even like Roy, and is in far far FAR more dire straights than "oops, no spells" and even he's contributing.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Truly, Durkon's passivity may be the Order's biggest liability. Given their near complete lack of optimization, that says something.

[Amphiox]

One question to consider here is how aware Durkon himself is of the changes in his stats and abilities.

He didn't appear to know all that much about Vampires in general from before, so although WE know he's got this or that stat boost now, does he? What does a STR or CON boost actually FEEL like for the character who gets it?

Before he was turned, he was a spell-first support character who's first instincts were not towards melee. Those ingrained instincts and tendencies are still there. Maybe he simply doesn't yet realize how effective he can be in melee combat now, and will not until he gets an opportunity "try it out" as it were. (Physically beating up Z was probably something he could have done even before he was turned, so he may not have noticed much different from that altercation).