[3.5] [Build] Here, Kitty Kit-ARGH! [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Red Fel

2013-11-13, 01:44 PM

Hello, friends. It's time for another buildy fun-time with Fel.

We've previously build dragonzords (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=307217), holy warriors (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=308622), nifty elves (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=311120), and other assorted oddities. This time, we're going to try something a little more mundane.

Let's build a terrifying kitty-cat.

As always, The Rules:
The sources must be 3.5. 3.0 is acceptable if it can be properly adapted. PF and 4e are right out. No homebrews or third-party materials. Dragon Compendium is fine, Dragon Mag is not.
The race is Tibbit, as seen in Dragon Compendium.
I am open to ideas on classes, but currently I'm thinking either rogue-style Swordsage, or Psion/PsiWar/Psisomething. (Psionics work in animal form, right?) No gestalt.
Alignment will be any non-lawful, non-evil.
No Dark Chaos Shuffle or similar cheese. Just regular cheese will be fine.
Levels start at 1, and go as high as 20, or less if that's all you need.
Templates are permitted, but no LA, and nothing to lose Tibbit's features (i.e. Feline Transformation).
Bonus points for good cat-related flavor.
Triple Word Score for making use of Feline Transformation.
Of course I plan to use the Collar of Perpetual Attendance. Duh.

I'm open to having multiple build ideas (e.g. one build for psionics, one for maneuvers, maybe one for warlock, I don't know). I'm open to the usual level of awesome of which you all have shown yourselves to be capable.

Pencils up, and begin!

Hey, look! I've started posting them!

This build requires kitty to be Lawful. It also requires a kitty's sheathing/unsheathing of her claws to be considered the sheathing/unsheathing of a weapon. And then it commits murder.

Special thanks to Metahuman1 for this one!

Behold, the LG Tibbit Factotum 8/ Marshal 1/ Iaijutsu Master 5/ Swordsage 2/ Factotum 4, the charming yet deadly Master Purr!

{table=head]{colsp=10}Features||{colsp=3}Maneuvers

Level|Classes|
BAB|
Fort|
Ref|
Will|Spell Level|Inspiration Points|Special|Feat||
Maneuvers Known|
Maneuvers Readied|
Stances Known

1|Factotum 1|
+0|
+0|
+2|
+0|
--|
2|Inspiration, Cunning Insight, Cunning Knowledge, Trapfinding|Improved Initiative||
0|
0|
0

2|Factotum 2|
+1|
+0|
+3|
+0|
0|
3|Arcane Dilettante (1 spell)|||
0|
0|
0

3|Factotum 3|
+2|
+1|
+3|
+1|
1|
3|Brains Over Brawn, Cunning Defense|Quick Draw||
0|
0|
0

4|Factotum 4|
+3|
+1|
+4|
+1|
1|
3|Arcane Dilettante (2 spells), Cunning Strike|||
0|
0|
0

5|Factotum 5|
+3|
+1|
+4|
+1|
2|
4|Opportunistic Piety|||
0|
0|
0

6|Factotum 6|
+4|
+2|
+5|
+2|
2|
4||Weapon Focus (katana)||
0|
0|
0

7|Factotum 7|
+5|
+2|
+5|
+2|
2|
4|Arcane Dilettante (3 spells)|||
0|
0|
0

8|Factotum 8|
+6|
+2|
+6|
+2|
3|
5|Cunning Surge|||
0|
0|
0

9|Factotum 8/ Marshal 1*|
+6|
+4|
+6|
+4|
3|
5|Skill Focus (Diplomacy), Minor Aura|Underfoot Combatant||
0|
0|
0

10|Factotum 8/ Marshal 1/ Iaijutsu Master 1|
+7|
+4|
+8|
+4|
3|
5|Weapon Finesse, Canny Defense|||
0|
0|
0

11|Factotum 8/ Marshal 1/ Iaijutsu Master 2|
+8|
+4|
+9|
+4|
3|
5|Lightning Blade|||
0|
0|
0

12|Factotum 8/ Marshal 1/ Iaijutsu Master 3|
+9|
+5|
+9|
+5|
3|
5||Confound the Big Folk||
0|
0|
0

13|Factotum 8/ Marshal 1/ Iaijutsu Master 4|
+10|
+5|
+10|
+5|
3|
5|Bonus Feat|Improved Trip||
0|
0|
0

14|Factotum 8/ Marshal 1/ Iaijutsu Master 5|
+10|
+5|
+10|
+5|
3|
5|Strike from the Void|||
0|
0|
0

15|Factotum 8/ Marshal 1/ Iaijutsu Master 5/ Swordsage 1|
+10|
+5|
+12|
+7|
3|
5|Quick to Act +1, Discipline Focus (Weapon Focus)**|Pebble Underfoot||
6|
4|
1

16|Factotum 8/ Marshal 1/ Iaijutsu Master 5/ Swordsage 2|
+11|
+5|
+13|
+8|
3|
5|AC Bonus|||
7|
4|
2

17|Factotum 9/ Marshal 1/ Iaijutsu Master 5/ Swordsage 2|
+11|
+6|
+13|
+9|
3|
5|Arcane Dilettante (4 spells)|||
7|
4|
2

18|Factotum 10/ Marshal 1/ Iaijutsu Master 5/ Swordsage 2|
+12|
+6|
+14|
+9|
4|
5|Opportunistic Piety (+1 use)|Feat***||
7|
4|
2

19|Factotum 11/ Marshal 1/ Iaijutsu Master 5/ Swordsage 2|
+13|
+6|
+14|
+9|
4|
6|Cunning Breach|||
7|
4|
2

20|Factotum 12/ Marshal 1/ Iaijutsu Master 5/ Swordsage 2|
+14|
+7|
+15|
+10|
4|
6|Arcane Dilettante (5 spells)|||
7|
4|
2[/table]

* Marshal is being taken for precisely one aura, Motivate Charisma, which turns up Iaijutsu Focus to 11. As such, I didn't feel the need to list Auras Known in the table.
** I still have to pick a discipline. I'm inclined to go with Tiger Claw, as this covers claws and unarmed strikes.
*** Still undecided.

As an aside, Iaijutsu Master offers Improved Trip as a bonus feat. However, Improved Trip requires Combat Expertise as a prerequisite. If IT cannot be taken without CE, then I will use this bonus feat to take CE, and take IT later (with my floating bonus feat shown on the table).

This build is designed around a kitty who's bigger on the inside. It uses Psionics and Incarnum to a quite amusing degree, and as a bonus allows Telepathy and Mindsense, permitting communication even while in ittybittykittyform.

Special thanks to Kuulvheysoon for this one!

Behold, the CN Tibbit Telepath 5/ Incarnate 2/ Soul Manifester 10/ Telepath 3, Fluffymind the Unknowable!

{table=head]{colsp=8}Features||{colsp=3}Psionics||{colsp=3}Inc arnum

Level|Classes|
BAB|
Fort|
Ref|
Will|Special|Feat||
Power Points Per Day|
Powers Known|
Maximum Power Level Known||
Soulmelds|
Essentia|
Chakra Binds

1|Psion 1|
+0|
+0|
+0|
+2|Bonus Feat, Discipline*|Azure Talent, Psicrystal Affinity||
2|
3|
1st||
0|
0|
0

2|Psion 2|
+1|
+0|
+0|
+3||||
6|
5|
1st||
0|
0|
0

3|Psion 3|
+1|
+1|
+1|
+3||Midnight Augmentation||
11|
7|
2nd||
0|
0|
0

4|Psion 4|
+2|
+1|
+1|
+4||||
17|
9|
2nd||
0|
0|
0

5|Psion 5|
+2|
+1|
+1|
+4|Telepathy**|||
25|
11|
3rd||
0|
0|
0

6|Psion 5/ Incarnate 1|
+2|
+3|
+1|
+6|Aura, Detect Opposition|Mindsight||
25|
11|
3rd||
2|
1|
0

7|Psion 5/ Incarnate 2|
+1|
+4|
+1|
+7|Chakra Bind (crown)|||
25|
11|
3rd||
3|
2|
1

8|Psion 5/ Incarnate 2/ Soul Manifester 1|
+1|
+4|
+1|
+9|Psionic Investment 1|||
35|
13|
3rd||
3|
3|
1

9|Psion 5/ Incarnate 2/ Soul Manifester 2|
+2|
+4|
+1|
+10||Feat***||
46|
15|
4th||
4|
4|
1

10|Psion 5/ Incarnate 2/ Soul Manifester 3|
+2|
+5|
+2|
+10|Chakra Binds (crown, feet, hands)|||
58|
17|
4th||
4|
5|
1

11|Psion 5/ Incarnate 2/ Soul Manifester 4|
+3|
+5|
+2|
+11||||
72|
19|
5th||
4|
6|
2

12|Psion 5/ Incarnate 2/ Soul Manifester 5|
+3|
+5|
+2|
+11||Feat***||
88|
21|
5th||
5|
7|
2

13|Psion 5/ Incarnate 2/ Soul Manifester 6|
+4|
+6|
+3|
+12||||
106|
22|
6th||
5|
8|
2

14|Psion 5/ Incarnate 2/ Soul Manifester 7|
+4|
+6|
+3|
+12|Psionic Investment 2|||
126|
24|
6th||
5|
9|
2

15|Psion 5/ Incarnate 2/ Soul Manifester 8|
+5|
+6|
+3|
+13|Chakra Binds (arms, brow, shoulders)|Feat***||
147|
25|
7th||
6|
10|
3

16|Psion 5/ Incarnate 2/ Soul Manifester 9|
+5|
+7|
+4|
+13||||
170|
27|
7th||
6|
11|
3

17|Psion 5/ Incarnate 2/ Soul Manifester 10|
+6|
+7|
+4|
+14|Psionic Distillation|||
195|
28|
8th||
6|
12|
3

18|Psion 6/ Incarnate 2/ Soul Manifester 10|
+7|
+8|
+5|
+15||Feat***||
221|
30|
8th||
6|
12|
3

19|Psion 7/ Incarnate 2/ Soul Manifester 10|
+7|
+8|
+5|
+15||||
250|
31|
9th||
6|
12|
3

20|Psion 8/ Incarnate 2/ Soul Manifester 10|
+8|
+8|
+5|
+16||||
280|
33|
9th||
6|
12|
3[/table]

* Obviously, this Psion's discipline is Telepathy.
** This is an ACF from The Mind's Eye (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070411a), which replaces a Telepath's 5th-level bonus feat with Telepathy.
*** Still undecided.

Unlike the Iaijutsu kitty, who's built around Charisma and use of Iaijutsu Focus, this kitty is built around moving fast and shredding face.

Special thanks to Metahuman1 for this one too! On a roll, here!

Behold, the Tibbit Cloistered Cleric 1/ Barbarian 1/ Scout 3/ Ranger 1/ Swordsage 2/ Ranger 11/ Swordsage 1, the unconquerable Learned Paw!

{table=head]{colsp=8}Features||{colsp=2}Cleric Spells Per Day||{colsp=3}Ranger Spells Per Day||{colsp=3}Maneuvers

Level|Classes|
BAB|
Fort|
Ref|
Will|Special|Feat||
0th|
1st||
1st|
2nd|
3rd||
Maneuvers Known|
Maneuvers Readied|
Stances Known

1|Cleric 1*|
+0|
+2|
+0|
+2|Turn Undead, Domains (Knowledge, Travel, Trickery), Lore|Knowledge Devotion, Travel Devotion, Trickery Devotion, Jack of All Trades||
3|
1+1||
--|
--|
--||
0|
0|
0

2|Cleric 1/ Barbarian 1**|
+1|
+4|
+0|
+2|Pounce, Whirling Frenzy 1/day|||
3|
1+1||
--|
--|
--||
0|
0|
0

3|Cleric 1/ Barbarian 1/ Scout 1|
+1|
+4|
+2|
+2|Skirmish (+1d6), Trapfinding|Combat Expertise||
3|
1+1||
--|
--|
--||
0|
0|
0

4|Cleric 1/ Barbarian 1/ Scout 2|
+2|
+4|
+3|
+2|Battle Fortitude +1, Uncanny Dodge|||
3|
1+1||
--|
--|
--||
0|
0|
0

5|Cleric 1/ Barbarian 1/ Scout 3|
+3|
+5|
+3|
+3|Fast Movement +10ft, Skirmish (+1d6, +1 AC), Trackless Step|||
3|
1+1||
--|
--|
--||
0|
0|
0

6|Cleric 1/ Barbarian 1/ Scout 3/ Ranger 1***|
+4|
+7|
+5|
+3|1st Favored Enemy, Track, Wild Empathy|Swift Hunter||
3|
1+1||
--|
--|
--||
0|
0|
0

7|Cleric 1/ Barbarian 1/ Scout 3/ Ranger 1/ Swordsage 1|
+4|
+7|
+7|
+5|Quick to Act +1, Discipline Focus (weapon focus)****|||
3|
1+1||
--|
--|
--||
6|
4|
1

8|Cleric 1/ Barbarian 1/ Scout 3/ Ranger 1/ Swordsage 2|
+5|
+7|
+8|
+6|AC Bonus|||
3|
1+1||
--|
--|
--||
7|
4|
2

9|Cleric 1/ Barbarian 1/ Scout 3/ Ranger 2/ Swordsage 2|
+6|
+8|
+9|
+6|Combat Style|Underfoot Combat||
3|
1+1||
--|
--|
--||
7|
4|
2

10|Cleric 1/ Barbarian 1/ Scout 3/ Ranger 3/ Swordsage 2|
+7|
+8|
+9|
+7|Endurance|||
3|
1+1||
--|
--|
--||
7|
4|
2

11|Cleric 1/ Barbarian 1/ Scout 3/ Ranger 4/ Swordsage 2|
+8|
+9|
+10|
+7|Animal Companion|||
3|
1+1||
0|
--|
--||
7|
4|
2

12|Cleric 1/ Barbarian 1/ Scout 3/ Ranger 5/ Swordsage 2|
+9|
+9|
+10|
+7|2nd Favored Enemy|Confound the Big Folk||
3|
1+1||
0|
--|
--||
7|
4|
2

13|Cleric 1/ Barbarian 1/ Scout 3/ Ranger 6/ Swordsage 2|
+10|
+10|
+11|
+8|Improved Combat Style|||
3|
1+1||
1|
--|
--||
7|
4|
2

14|Cleric 1/ Barbarian 1/ Scout 3/ Ranger 7/ Swordsage 2|
+11|
+10|
+11|
+8|Woodland Stride|||
3|
1+1||
1|
--|
--||
7|
4|
2

15|Cleric 1/ Barbarian 1/ Scout 3/ Ranger 8/ Swordsage 2|
+12|
+11|
+12|
+8|Swift Tracker|Improved Trip||
3|
1+1||
1|
0|
--||
7|
4|
2

16|Cleric 1/ Barbarian 1/ Scout 3/ Ranger 9/ Swordsage 2|
+13|
+11|
+12|
+9|Evasion|||
3|
1+1||
1|
0|
--||
7|
4|
2

17|Cleric 1/ Barbarian 1/ Scout 3/ Ranger 10/ Swordsage 2|
+14|
+12|
+13|
+9|3rd Favored Enemy|||
3|
1+1||
1|
1|
--||
7|
4|
2

18|Cleric 1/ Barbarian 1/ Scout 3/ Ranger 11/ Swordsage 2|
+15|
+12|
+13|
+9|Combat Style Mastery|Pebble Underfoot||
3|
1+1||
1|
1|
0||
7|
4|
2

19|Cleric 1/ Barbarian 1/ Scout 3/ Ranger 12/ Swordsage 2|
+16|
+13|
+14|
+10||||
3|
1+1||
1|
1|
1||
7|
4|
2

20|Cleric 1/ Barbarian 1/ Scout 3/ Ranger 12/ Swordsage 3|
+17|
+14|
+14|
+10||||
3|
1+1||
1|
1|
1||
8|
5|
2[/table]

* This uses the Cloistered Cleric variant from Unearthed Arcana, which grants bonus features listed above. This character is a Cleric of the Cat Lord, whose Domains are Chaos, Travel and Trickery (according to the Tibbit racial entry in Dragon Compendium). Accordingly, this build has taken the Travel and Trickery domains, plus the bonus Knowledge domain. As shown above, the character has exchanged all three for their corresponding Devotion feats.

** This uses two changes. First, it uses the Whirling Frenzy variant from Unearthed Arcana, which replaces Rage with Whirling Frenzy, which grants +4 Strength, +2 dodge bonus to AC and Reflex saves, and an extra attack per turn, with all attacks at -2. Second, it uses the Spirit Lion Totem ACF from Complete Champion, which replaces Fast Movement with Pounce, allowing a full attack on a charge.

*** I am open to taking ACFs and other variants on Ranger. In fact, I welcome the input. For example, the Fangshields variant would help me in ittybittykittyform; is it worth it? Is it worth giving up Ranger spellcasting or animal companion? Comments requested!

**** Perhaps Tiger Claw will be my Discipline Focus, for unarmed strikes and claws.

For Favored Enemy, I will likely take, in no particular order, Undead, Constructs, and either Elementals, Oozes or Plants, as Swift Hunter makes them subject to the extra Skirmish damage. The Swordsage maneuvers will focus on Diamond Mind counters, Setting Sun stances and Desert Wind maneuverability (which in turn triggers Skirmish).

RFLS

2013-11-13, 02:42 PM

Kuulvheysoon

2013-11-13, 02:47 PM

Alright, here's a pretty basic one to start you off, I guess.

Telepath 5/Incarnate (CN) 2/Soul Manifester 10/Telepath 3.

Make sure to grab the Telepath 5 ACF (telepathy 100ft), Mindsight, and the power shatter mind blank.

Congratulations. Now you're the puppetmaster who subtly and deftly manipulates everyone into doing whatever you want (Mostly self-gratification, because let's face it - you're a cat). Using a mixture of the Charming Veil and Psychic Focus soulmeld, shatter mind blank (to take care of those annoying casters who cast mind blank on themselves), Handle Humanoid class skill (from the Fabulous Cats! (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fools/20030401c) web article) and sheer guile, you are the BBEG behind the BBEG.

Works better as a NE Incarnate, as everyone knows that casts are evil. Feline Transformation... well, you're going to be masquerading as a cat 24/7.

Diovid

2013-11-13, 02:57 PM

Ranger 6 / Beastmaster 1 / Animal Lord (Cat Lord 1) 1 / Barbarian 1 / Ranger + 2 / Animal Lord +9 could be a way to go.

Use the Ranger's Champion of the Wild variant (Complete Champion), The Ranger's Fanshield substitution levels (Champions of Valor) and the Barbarian's Spiritual Lion Totem variant (Complete Champion).

Take the Natural Bond feat. Start with a Serval animal companion at 4th level (see Sandstorm), take any feline you like later.

Red Fel

2013-11-13, 03:22 PM

Here you go:

Build: Ranger (Wildshaper Variant) 5 / Warshaper 5 / Soul Eater 10.

Feats:

1. Alertness
3. Weapon Focus (Tentacle)
5 - 18. Doesn't matter. Recommend Multiattack and Weapon Finesse.

Skills: Be sure to drop ranks into Knowledge (Arcana) before entering Soul Eater. Otherwise, who cares?

Explanation: This build gets really powerful at level 6, and then again (and more so) at level 11. Grow NI tentacles, and then deliver NI negative levels. If you can, find a way to hide the writhing mass of tentacles that you have become.

So... The goal here is to become a tentacled monstrosity?

I mean, it sort of makes sense. If the tentacles are also there in kitty form, that means kitty form can defend itself. Bonus points there.

... Which you then lose because the adorable kitty is now a writhing mass of tentacles, which in no way resembles a perfectly ordinary unremarkable kitty.

Still, it's an interesting idea. The goal, as I understand it, is simply to be a mass-attacking Negative Level Delivery System. That's pretty potent.

Alright, here's a pretty basic one to start you off, I guess.

Telepath 5/Incarnate (CN) 2/Soul Manifester 10/Telepath 3.

Make sure to grab the Telepath 5 ACF (telepathy 100ft), Mindsight, and the power shatter mind blank.

Congratulations. Now you're the puppetmaster who subtly and deftly manipulates everyone into doing whatever you want (Mostly self-gratification, because let's face it - you're a cat). Using a mixture of the Charming Veil and Psychic Focus soulmeld, shatter mind blank (to take care of those annoying casters who cast mind blank on themselves), Handle Humanoid class skill (from the Fabulous Cats! (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fools/20030401c) web article) and sheer guile, you are the BBEG behind the BBEG.

Works better as a NE Incarnate, as everyone knows that casts are evil. Feline Transformation... well, you're going to be masquerading as a cat 24/7.

Okay. Let me start by saying, awesomesauce. I love how you worked Incarnum in there, too - although I'm not sure whether Soulmelds will still function properly in kittyform. According to RAW, magic items etc. that are worn become inert while in kittyform; the same might apply to Soulmelds. On the other hand, it's worth thinking about... Hmm.

I love the flavor angle. Kitty as master manipulator works so well. And Shatter Mind Blank is a smart choice.

Admittedly, I'd play this as non-evil, but even as a Chaotic build, it's delicious.

Ranger 6 / Beastmaster 1 / Animal Lord (Cat Lord 1) 1 / Barbarian 1 / Ranger + 2 / Animal Lord +9 could be a way to go.

Use the Ranger's Champion of the Wild variant (Complete Champion), The Ranger's Fanshield substitution levels (Champions of Valor) and the Barbarian's Spiritual Lion Totem variant (Complete Champion).

Take the Natural Bond feat. Start with a Serval animal companion at 4th level (see Sandstorm), take any feline you like later.

Interesting. So here, you're going with more of a domesticated leonine Leader-of-the-Pack thing.

There are some redundancies here, particularly in Animal Lord. For example, Tibbits can already speak with any feline creature above 3 Int. Admittedly, Speak with Animals adds mundane animals to that list 1/day, but it's still a bit redundant. Also, Catlord's Wild Aspect (1d3 claw attacks, since Tibbits in monstrous humanoid form are small) doesn't impress.

I like the idea - a Tibbit who becomes Lord of the Big Cats - but I'm not feeling the Animal Lord side of it.

As for the rest of the build, I confess my unfamiliarity with the Ranger class - never played one, so my knowledge is only academic. But I do like the Spirit Lion Totem Barb level, Pounce is very nice. The problem is that Tibbits are a small race, with a bonus to Dex and a penalty to Str. Straight-up fighting isn't necessarily the best for them. While I love Pounce for flavor, it seems somewhat strategically unsound for a little kittyperson to charge headfirst into battle with things that are generally bigger and meaner.

Diovid

2013-11-13, 03:48 PM

Interesting. So here, you're going with more of a domesticated leonine Leader-of-the-Pack thing.

There are some redundancies here, particularly in Animal Lord. For example, Tibbits can already speak with any feline creature above 3 Int. Admittedly, Speak with Animals adds mundane animals to that list 1/day, but it's still a bit redundant. Also, Catlord's Wild Aspect (1d3 claw attacks, since Tibbits in monstrous humanoid form are small) doesn't impress.

I like the idea - a Tibbit who becomes Lord of the Big Cats - but I'm not feeling the Animal Lord side of it.

As for the rest of the build, I confess my unfamiliarity with the Ranger class - never played one, so my knowledge is only academic. But I do like the Spirit Lion Totem Barb level, Pounce is very nice. The problem is that Tibbits are a small race, with a bonus to Dex and a penalty to Str. Straight-up fighting isn't necessarily the best for them. While I love Pounce for flavor, it seems somewhat strategically unsound for a little kittyperson to charge headfirst into battle with things that are generally bigger and meaner.
You could just as easily only take 1 or 2 levels of Animal Lord and replace the other levels with more levels of Ranger or Beastmaster.

An entirely different idea is to build towards Lion of Talisid (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20031004b).

nedz

2013-11-13, 04:11 PM

Telepath 5 / Thrallherd 10 / (whatever) 5

Set your thrall up as the leader of some international crime syndicate, your believers are the troops. With the money the organisation makes you can hire any number of specialists to fill in the gaps.

When the Heroes finally get to meet the BBEG, they just kill your thrall and ignore the White Persian cat he was holding.

Red Fel

2013-11-13, 09:12 PM

You could just as easily only take 1 or 2 levels of Animal Lord and replace the other levels with more levels of Ranger or Beastmaster.

An entirely different idea is to build towards Lion of Talisid (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20031004b).

Hmm... Again, you'd have to tell me how the Ranger levels would play out. I see this character manipulating others, and relating to cats, sure. But actually controlling an animal companion feels like a stretch.

Looking at Lion of Talisid, there are things I like and things that feel redundant. For example, the fear immunity is nice. The Scent bit is nice, but the Tibbit already has that ability in feline form, and it seems like gaining that ability would be just another reason to never switch forms. Again, Wild Shape is irrelevant to my needs - I just want a character with its humanoid and feline forms, keep it simple. And as far as capstones, Leonal's Roar is admittedly sweet, but the rest of the class features seem a bit... I don't know, scattered?

I'm trying to figure out how you see this build playing, is the point. Help me out here?

Telepath 5 / Thrallherd 10 / (whatever) 5

Set your thrall up as the leader of some international crime syndicate, your believers are the troops. With the money the organisation makes you can hire any number of specialists to fill in the gaps.

When the Heroes finally get to meet the BBEG, they just kill your thrall and ignore the White Persian cat he was holding.

As tempting as it may be to be Blofeld's cat, I'm pretty sure the Powerpuff Girls already pulled this gag. I don't mind this character charming or dominating other NPCs temporarily, but having permanent followers just seems... A little bit tyrannical, y'know?

Also, I'm actually not trying to build a BBEG here. Although I could definitely use that idea later.

Nocharim

2013-11-13, 09:22 PM

SoraWolf7

2013-11-13, 09:34 PM

This reminds me of a story a friend told me of a master wizard having this soul swapped with a black cat, and thus a cross setting familiar sight character was born who could ask the adventuring group to do stuff. And I have wanted to make a cat PC ever since.

avr

2013-11-13, 09:48 PM

A psychic rogue is fitting if not a power hitter. Lots of sneaky and telekinetic abilities. Or you could do a psion or wilder and go into the psion uncarnate PrC to play the Cheshire Cat from Alice in Wonderland.

And yes, Psionic abilities work fine when you can't speak or wiggle your fingers.

Metahuman1

2013-11-13, 09:49 PM

Question: Would the retractable claws cats have count as sheathable slashing weapons for Iai-Jutsu focus?

If so, Factotum X/ Mashel 1/ Iai-Jutsu Master 5/ Swordsage 1/ Factotum X.

Take Underfoot Combatant and Confound the Big Folk.

Edit: Oh, and I suppose Knowledge Devotion and Weapons Finesse and the TWF line would be good. Maybe Travel and Luck Devotion.

Red Fel

2013-11-14, 10:03 AM

Well, I do happen to have a warblade based tibbit build laying around that mostly fits the criteria. I must point out that the alignment restrictions seem a bit odd when speaking of cats (and the title).

Originally built as a LE personal bodyguard/deathsquad for an arcane caster based aristocrat who was violently racist against elves due to extreme paranoia. Also heavily inspired by the Tibbit artwork in the compendium.

Stub

Dark Creature [ToM] Shadow-Walker [Unapproachable East] Tibbit

Warblade 3/Hit-And-Run Fighter 1/Warblade +2/Hit-And-Run Fighter +1/Bloodclaw Master 1/Telflammar Shadowlord 4/Bloodclaw Master +2/Warblade +6

BAB: 18
IL: 17

Feats

Feats, as usual for my builds, tend to be extremely tight. Optional feats marked with an asterisk (*).

Flaws: Dodge, Mobility
01. Two-Weapon Fighting
03. Martial Study (Shadow Jaunt)
04. Spring Attack
06. Iron Heart Aura* [Wb], Martial Stance (Assassin's Stance)
07. Blind-Fight [Ft]
09. Stormguard Warrior*
12. Martial Study (Shadow Stride)
15. Improved Two-Weapon Fighting*
18. Martial Study (Shadow Blink), Combat Reflexes* [Wb]

Maneuvers & Stances

As usual, these are mutable, but the list provided should be fairly solid.

Warblade:
LvL Maneuvers:
01. Sudden Leap (Tiger Claw, 1st, Boost)
01. Sapphire Nightmare Blade (Diamond Mind, 1st, Strike)
01. Wolf Fang Strike (Tiger Claw, 1st, Strike)
02. Moment of Perfect Mind (Diamond Mind, 1st, Counter)
03. Action Before Thought (Diamond Mind, 2nd, Counter)
03. Shadow Jaunt (Shadow Hand, 2nd, [Teleportation])
06. Iron Heart Surge (Iron Heart, 3rd, Counter)
12. Shadow Stride (Shadow Hand, 5th, [Teleportation])
16. Swooping Dragon Strike (Tiger Claw, 7th, Strike)
18. Girallon Windmill Flesh Rip (Tiger Claw, 8th, Boost)
18. Shadow Blink (Shadow Hand, 7th, [Teleportation])
20. Time Stands Still (Diamond Mind, 9th, Strike)

LvL Stances:
01. Punishing Stance (Iron Heart, 1st)
05. Blood in the Water (Tiger Claw, 1st)
06. Assassin's Stance (Shadow Hand, 3rd)
19. Stance of Alacrity (Diamond Mind, 8th)

Bloodclaw Master:
LvL Maneuvers:
08. Death From Above (Tiger Claw, 4th, Strike)
14. Dancing Mongoose (Tiger Claw, 5th, Boost)

Skills
Hide, Move Silently, Jump should be aimed to be maxed and Concentration if you have enough skill points and decide to utilize Diamond Mind maneuvers and to replace your horrible Will save.

Equipment

Aside from Fey-Crafted [DMG2] weapons in Dex based builds to make up for the lack of Weapon Finesse this section is fairly open. Kukris are a good choice as base weapons, even more so if you decide to fight as a crit-fisher like I did. Crit-Fishers benefit greatly from Enervating and Cursespewing weapon enchantments and later on tack on Prismatic Burst for good measure. Keen can be obtained from other sources (Scabbard of Keen Edges, Sacred Scabbard).

One could also utilize weapons that replace your natural weapons in feline form to create a true murderkitten.

Role & Combat

Even from fairly early on this build can be used as a sneaky scout and a highly mobile bruiser that behaves akin to a melee rogue.
The build really starts to shine when she gains Shadow Pounce from Shadowlord 4 that when used with Shadow Jaunt/Stride/Blink will result in Stealth-Hi-Murder-Bye! situations where you can just harass the opponents in short skirmishes without placing yourself in harms way. The spells from Shadowlord are just gravy.

Notes

Dark Template is entirely optional, Shadow-Walker is a requirement for shadowlord unless Shadow Jaunt is allowed to act as a substitute for casting Dimension Door.
The first seven levels should be staggered for feat and maneuver access, the feats and maneuvers will be in order presented in the stub, although it can be fiddled with more. The last six levels are also open, I used Warblade, but with enough tinkering Master of Nine could be accessible.
Both Str and Dex based builds are supported. H&R Fighter is from Drow of the Underdark.

Okay. That build is awesome, and extremely tight. You've also presented it beautifully.

My major problem with the build is that it includes +2 LA (+1 for Dark, +1 Shadow-Walker). I assume, given that you list 20 class levels, that you use LA buyoff.

Short version? If I were doing LA buyoff, I would consider this build to be outrageously awesome. You've done an incredible job of painting a precise picture of a two-handed shadowy shred-machine, and it's stunning. I am definitely leaving a mental note on this build.

You, my friend, deserve a kudo.

This reminds me of a story a friend told me of a master wizard having this soul swapped with a black cat, and thus a cross setting familiar sight character was born who could ask the adventuring group to do stuff. And I have wanted to make a cat PC ever since.

I know, right?

A psychic rogue is fitting if not a power hitter. Lots of sneaky and telekinetic abilities. Or you could do a psion or wilder and go into the psion uncarnate PrC to play the Cheshire Cat from Alice in Wonderland.

And yes, Psionic abilities work fine when you can't speak or wiggle your fingers.

Side note, the Fabulous Cats article cited above actually includes a Cheshire Cat monster. And I do like the idea of a Psion or PsiRogue, but seeing as I haven't played Psionics since 2e, I'm a bit rusty on the best way to go about it. (Hence the thread.)

And I do like the idea of kitty manipulating things with kittybrains.

Question: Would the retractable claws cats have count as sheathable slashing weapons for Iai-Jutsu focus?

If so, Factotum X/ Mashel 1/ Iai-Jutsu Master 5/ Swordsage 1/ Factotum X.

Take Underfoot Combatant and Confound the Big Folk.

Edit: Oh, and I suppose Knowledge Devotion and Weapons Finesse and the TWF line would be good. Maybe Travel and Luck Devotion.

... Huh. You have my attention. Okay.

First off, I'm checking over my books, but I don't actually see the damage type on a house cat's claw attacks. However, the Iaijutsu Focus skill only requires a melee attack, not explicitly a slashing attack. On the other hand, Tibbits don't seem to have claws in their monstrous humanoid form, so that check would only apply to ittybittykittyform, which brings even more Str penalties into play.

Still, watching an ittybittykitty smash an inanimate object with only ittybittykittyclaws would be pretty hysterical. I give you that.

Not sure why you stuck Factotum in there. For the Iaijutsu Focus skillchecks? And Marshal? I do like your choice of Knowledge Devotion, though. Always a favorite.

And, oh my goodness. Underfoot Combatant and Confound the Big Folk are absolutely incredible. If I were to go for rogue-like melee combatant (as opposed to a Psion) those feats would be outrageously useful. Flanking? No thank you, I'll just stand down here. And some of those tricks (like Unsteady Footing) are even usable in ittybittykittyform.

That's genius, right there.

As a side note, a lot of people lately seem to be suggesting TWF. I'm intrigued, because I thought that sort of behavior was frowned upon. Is this one of those rare builds where TWF is actually a good thing?

Okay, so let's review some ideas.

1: Some people have thrown out Psionic ideas. I like the idea of a PsiRogue who can psi while kittystealthing, or Telepath who charms/dupes people into service, but not so much the idea of a Thrallherd.

2: Some people have thrown out ToB. Love it. But let's focus on more tactical stuff (Shadow Hand for stealthing, Underfoot Combatant and Confound the Big Folk) and less in-your-face brutality stuff (Bloodclaw Master, Pounce). Think little kitty, not big tiger.

So, what's looking good and how do I get there?

Kuulvheysoon

2013-11-14, 10:27 AM

Factotum would be to get Iaijutsu Focus as a class skill, I'm willing to bet.

ddude987

2013-11-14, 10:42 AM

Druid 20

Max out diplomacy skill

Use awaken on house cats to make them sentient and use diplomacy to make them fanatical worshipers of you. Then create a demiplane for them and have their race expand. You use magic and diplomacy to keep them thinking you are their god and wha-la you are supreme kitty overlord. Then plan a cat invasion on the material plane and enslave all two legged sentient races.

edit: Also you don't see a damage type on a house cats claw attacks because natural weapons have predetermined damage types.

Metahuman1

2013-11-14, 12:41 PM

... Huh. You have my attention. Okay.

First off, I'm checking over my books, but I don't actually see the damage type on a house cat's claw attacks. However, the Iaijutsu Focus skill only requires a melee attack, not explicitly a slashing attack. On the other hand, Tibbits don't seem to have claws in their monstrous humanoid form, so that check would only apply to ittybittykittyform, which brings even more Str penalties into play.

Still, watching an ittybittykitty smash an inanimate object with only ittybittykittyclaws would be pretty hysterical. I give you that.

Not sure why you stuck Factotum in there. For the Iaijutsu Focus skillchecks? And Marshal? I do like your choice of Knowledge Devotion, though. Always a favorite.

And, oh my goodness. Underfoot Combatant and Confound the Big Folk are absolutely incredible. If I were to go for rogue-like melee combatant (as opposed to a Psion) those feats would be outrageously useful. Flanking? No thank you, I'll just stand down here. And some of those tricks (like Unsteady Footing) are even usable in ittybittykittyform.

That's genius, right there.

As a side note, a lot of people lately seem to be suggesting TWF. I'm intrigued, because I thought that sort of behavior was frowned upon. Is this one of those rare builds where TWF is actually a good thing?

Okay, so let's review some ideas.

1: Some people have thrown out Psionic ideas. I like the idea of a PsiRogue who can psi while kittystealthing, or Telepath who charms/dupes people into service, but not so much the idea of a Thrallherd.

2: Some people have thrown out ToB. Love it. But let's focus on more tactical stuff (Shadow Hand for stealthing, Underfoot Combatant and Confound the Big Folk) and less in-your-face brutality stuff (Bloodclaw Master, Pounce). Think little kitty, not big tiger.

So, what's looking good and how do I get there?

Factotum get's Iai-justu focus as a class skill, all knowledge skills as class skills, some turn undead that can fuel travel and luck devotion if taken, some spiffy SLA's and ability to draw on Int in a pinch for a lot of things. It's a solid, versatile chassie that get's me the two major things I need and a bunch of other stuff that's handy.

Marshal is for the Motivate Cha aura, which helps your Iai-justu skill checks. It also might, depending on DM ruling, help you with the Iai-jutsu masters class feature that gives you Cha mod (or depending on how the DM rules that ability to interact with motivate cha, double your cha mod.), per extra die of damage generated on an Iai-jutsu focus check for an attack. With the TWF line, good Cha, good checks for that skill, and the ability to "draw" and "sheath" your claws, that's gonna be devastating, more so when you pile on Knowledge devotion.

Swordsage get's you a lot of cool things. Concentration to saves, Melee touch attacks or flat footed attacks on demand, Boosts and Strikes that add extra mobility or attacks, Counters that get you out of trouble fast, bypassing DR and hardness, and my personal favorite, Giant Killing Style.

It's a 3rd level Setting Sun stance, you get +2 to hit and +4 to damage per size category you are smaller then your opponent. And it stacks with everything.

And yes, the idea here is to combine all this with Confound the Big Folk, Weapons Finesse, Underfoot Combatant, and the TWF Line with spending as much time in cat form. Because the cat going "Scratch Scratch the ogre is dead" is hilarious, and it's tactically beneficial for optimization.

TWF is good cause it get's you more attacks, which means what ever trick your using that's not STR + PA (which are bad for a small/tiny character to focus on usually.) can be invoked more and thus do more damage.

Red Fel

2013-11-14, 02:46 PM

Factotum would be to get Iaijutsu Focus as a class skill, I'm willing to bet.

So it would appear.

Factotum get's Iai-justu focus as a class skill, all knowledge skills as class skills, some turn undead that can fuel travel and luck devotion if taken, some spiffy SLA's and ability to draw on Int in a pinch for a lot of things. It's a solid, versatile chassie that get's me the two major things I need and a bunch of other stuff that's handy.

I gotcha. This is smart. I like smart. An unexpectedly smart kitty build using Dex and Int. I'm really starting to like this.

Marshal is for the Motivate Cha aura, which helps your Iai-justu skill checks. It also might, depending on DM ruling, help you with the Iai-jutsu masters class feature that gives you Cha mod (or depending on how the DM rules that ability to interact with motivate cha, double your cha mod.), per extra die of damage generated on an Iai-jutsu focus check for an attack. With the TWF line, good Cha, good checks for that skill, and the ability to "draw" and "sheath" your claws, that's gonna be devastating, more so when you pile on Knowledge devotion.

This is all assuming that drawing and sheathing claws satisfies the Iaijutsu Master requirement. It does make the build a teensy bit MAD (Int + Dex + Cha), but I can see the synergy. It's a little bit glorious. Again, it does require a lot - Iaijutsu Master has some substantial feat taxes (including Weapon Focus (katana) and BAB requirements, and a Lawful alignment requirement. That said, if I could surmount that? Yowza.

Swordsage get's you a lot of cool things. Concentration to saves, Melee touch attacks or flat footed attacks on demand, Boosts and Strikes that add extra mobility or attacks, Counters that get you out of trouble fast, bypassing DR and hardness, and my personal favorite, Giant Killing Style.

It's a 3rd level Setting Sun stance, you get +2 to hit and +4 to damage per size category you are smaller then your opponent. And it stacks with everything.

And yes, the idea here is to combine all this with Confound the Big Folk, Weapons Finesse, Underfoot Combatant, and the TWF Line with spending as much time in cat form. Because the cat going "Scratch Scratch the ogre is dead" is hilarious, and it's tactically beneficial for optimization.

TWF is good cause it get's you more attacks, which means what ever trick your using that's not STR + PA (which are bad for a small/tiny character to focus on usually.) can be invoked more and thus do more damage.

Okay, now this is some sound advice. Basically, using Setting Sun to overwhelm larger opponents, using Dex, IF and various Factotum tricks to boost the pain (and AC!), all without being dependent on Str... It's kind of genius.

My imaginary hat is off to you on this one.

Druid 20

Max out diplomacy skill

Use awaken on house cats to make them sentient and use diplomacy to make them fanatical worshipers of you. Then create a demiplane for them and have their race expand. You use magic and diplomacy to keep them thinking you are their god and wha-la you are supreme kitty overlord. Then plan a cat invasion on the material plane and enslave all two legged sentient races.

edit: Also you don't see a damage type on a house cats claw attacks because natural weapons have predetermined damage types.

Hmm... Not a fan of causing the kittypocalypse. But thanks for the note with regard to damage types. Now that I remember, yes, Claw attacks are slashing and piercing. That said, I don't actually see where in the Iaijutsu Master or IF descriptions slashing weapons are required.

Nocharim

2013-11-14, 03:01 PM

Okay. That build is awesome, and extremely tight. You've also presented it beautifully.

My major problem with the build is that it includes +2 LA (+1 for Dark, +1 Shadow-Walker). I assume, given that you list 20 class levels, that you use LA buyoff.

The Dark Creature template is completely for flavour and isn't actually required for anything, it can also be acquired from Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis. The Shadow-Walker template however is a requirement for Telflammar Shadowlord unless Shadow Jaunt is considered an equivalent to Dimension Door or Shadow Jump to the PrC's requirements.
There is however a fairly ruling sensitive bit on if the +2d6 Sneak Attack from Assassin's Stance is counted towards PrC requirements that I seem to have neglected to mention, personally I do consider it an permanent addition even though its a toggle-able ability.

Short version? If I were doing LA buyoff, I would consider this build to be outrageously awesome. You've done an incredible job of painting a precise picture of a two-handed shadowy shred-machine, and it's stunning. I am definitely leaving a mental note on this build.

You, my friend, deserve a kudo.

Glad to be of at least some assistance. :smallsmile:

EDIT: My friend pointed out that apparently I've made the cat version of Corvo. Similarities are completely unintentional and I should probably buy that game.

Madwand99

2013-11-14, 03:43 PM

I think I can do one better than a build stub and post an actual character sheet. This is a Tibbit PC I've played from 1st-7th level:

http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=659407

At 20th, he would be a Swordsage 1/Erudite 5/Jade Pheonix Psion 10/Slayer 4 (or optionally more Erudite levels instead of Slayer). At 7th though, he's already a (tiny) beast in or out of combat. Many, many psionic powers provide enormous versatility. Linked Power+Metapower allow 1st level buffs to be stacked freely. An AC approaching 30 (when buffed), a hide check exceeding 40, and soon to be much higher once a Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis is purchased. In combat, he can take a -20 on hide checks to full attack from hiding with up to 15' reach against flatfooted touch AC for between 70-90 damage or more/round. Maneuvers provide additional defenses and combat options, which are great. Burning Blade is awesome and highly entertaining in practice.

One of the really nice Psion powers for this build is Hammer. It's amazing: not only is it a 1st level multi-round Wraithstrike, it also removes the strength penalty AND increases bite and claw damage to d8 each. Incredible.

In practice, this is just a really, really fun, versatile, and effective build. If you happen to have a larger point-buy budget than I did, buy wisdom up to 14 and take Psionic Meditation instead of Psychic Meditation for extra in-combat emergency buffing. Though typically, it really isn't needed.

Kuulvheysoon

2013-11-14, 03:51 PM

One of the really nice Psion powers for this build is Hammer. It's amazing: not only is it a 1st level multi-round Wraithstrike, it also removes the strength penalty AND increases bite and claw damage to d8 each. Incredible.

That's... not what Hammer does.

It gives you a melee touch attack for 1d8 damage 1/round. So if you used 3 PP on it, you could make a single melee touch attack (that deals 1d8 as a standard action) once a round for 3 rounds. It doesn't increase the damage for your existing natural attacks.

Madwand99

2013-11-14, 03:54 PM

That's... not what Hammer does.

It gives you a melee touch attack for 1d8 damage 1/round. So if you used 3 PP on it, you could make a single melee touch attack (that deals 1d8 as a standard action) once a round for 3 rounds. It doesn't increase the damage for your existing natural attacks.

I have discussed this power before on various boards to confirm the above interpretation, because it did seem too good to be true. I have had several very knowledgeable people confirm it (at least one mentioned using it in combination with Hydra form). It will take more than a single dissenting voice to change my mind at this point.

Red Fel

2013-11-14, 04:17 PM

The Dark Creature template is completely for flavour and isn't actually required for anything, it can also be acquired from Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis. The Shadow-Walker template however is a requirement for Telflammar Shadowlord unless Shadow Jaunt is considered an equivalent to Dimension Door or Shadow Jump to the PrC's requirements.
There is however a fairly ruling sensitive bit on if the +2d6 Sneak Attack from Assassin's Stance is counted towards PrC requirements that I seem to have neglected to mention, personally I do consider it an permanent addition even though its a toggle-able ability.

I do like Dark, though. And it does serve some useful functions (doesn't it add Hide in Plain Sight?) to a Shadow Hand-focused build. Unfortunately that would require me to drop the idea of the Collar of Perpetual Attendance (which is not mandatory, but fun). I could also see Shadow Jaunt satisfying the TS requirement, although I think the Assassin's Stance SA is more arguable.

And I have no idea who Corvo is, so I'll let that be.

I think I can do one better than a build stub and post an actual character sheet. This is a Tibbit PC I've played from 1st-7th level:

http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=659407

At 20th, he would be a Swordsage 1/Erudite 5/Jade Pheonix Psion 10/Slayer 4 (or optionally more Erudite levels instead of Slayer). At 7th though, he's already a (tiny) beast in or out of combat. Many, many psionic powers provide enormous versatility. Linked Power+Metapower allow 1st level buffs to be stacked freely. An AC approaching 30 (when buffed), a hide check exceeding 40, and soon to be much higher once a Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis is purchased. In combat, he can take a -20 on hide checks to full attack from hiding with up to 15' reach against flatfooted touch AC for between 70-90 damage or more/round. Maneuvers provide additional defenses and combat options, which are great. Burning Blade is awesome and highly entertaining in practice.

One of the really nice Psion powers for this build is Hammer. It's amazing: not only is it a 1st level multi-round Wraithstrike, it also removes the strength penalty AND increases bite and claw damage to d8 each. Incredible.

In practice, this is just a really, really fun, versatile, and effective build. If you happen to have a larger point-buy budget than I did, buy wisdom up to 14 and take Psionic Meditation instead of Psychic Meditation for extra in-combat emergency buffing. Though typically, it really isn't needed.

Alright, let's have a look.

First off, that looks like a lot of power. Very Wizard-y in its versatility. Admittedly, as I mentioned, I'm a bit rusty on Powers, so that could get a bit overwhelming.

Your build starts with Unarmed Swordsage. Since that's not a properly statted variant, I'm curious which features you designed it around. (E.g. Just Monk unarmed progression? IUS? SUS? Flurry?)

I'm also not familiar with Jade Phoenix Psion. Is that an adaptation of the JPM?

Now, as to the Hammer dispute, I'll just take a look over here at the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/hammer.htm):

A successful melee touch attack deals 1d8 points of bludgeoning damage. This damage is not increased or decreased by your Strength modifier.
I can see the ambiguity. It does not say "perform one touch attack and deal damage," it says "a successful melee touch attack." That said, I'm a bit inclined to side with Kuul's interpretation for two reasons.

First, the Power has a range of Touch, not Self; it targets Creature Touched, not Self; this suggests that it is a targeted power that triggers off a touch attack, not a buff. This is further reinforced by the term "a successful melee touch attack," as opposed to "melee strike" or "unarmed strike" or similar language; a touch attack is typically a special attack, outside of the regular cycle of attacks. This all suggests to me that a more likely, if still arguable, interpretation is that once per round during the Power's duration, you can perform a touch attack for 1d8 damage.

Second, I tend to read ambiguous definitions as conservatively as possible, to avoid ticking off DMs. Admittedly, it's a more subjective reason than my last one, but the language of the Power definitely supports at least one use per round; it isn't clear whether it supports more than that. So I go with the minimum.

Even so? Imagine an ittybittykitty pawing at a guy's knee, performing a called shot for 1d8 to the vulnerable part of the joint. ("Then I took a kitten to the knee!") I like it.

Kuulvheysoon

2013-11-14, 04:25 PM

I'm also not familiar with Jade Phoenix Psion. Is that an adaptation of the JPM?

Now, as to the Hammer dispute, I'll just take a look over here at the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/hammer.htm):

I can see the ambiguity. It does not say "perform one touch attack and deal damage," it says "a successful melee touch attack." That said, I'm a bit inclined to side with Kuul's interpretation for two reasons.

First, the Power has a range of Touch, not Self; it targets Creature Touched, not Self; this suggests that it is a targeted power that triggers off a touch attack, not a buff. This is further reinforced by the term "a successful melee touch attack," as opposed to "melee strike" or "unarmed strike" or similar language; a touch attack is typically a special attack, outside of the regular cycle of attacks. This all suggests to me that a more likely, if still arguable, interpretation is that once per round during the Power's duration, you can perform a touch attack for 1d8 damage.

Second, I tend to read ambiguous definitions as conservatively as possible, to avoid ticking off DMs. Admittedly, it's a more subjective reason than my last one, but the language of the Power definitely supports at least one use per round; it isn't clear whether it supports more than that. So I go with the minimum.

Even so? Imagine an ittybittykitty pawing at a guy's knee, performing a called shot for 1d8 to the vulnerable part of the joint. ("Then I took a kitten to the knee!") I like it.

I split the Hammer discussion off into another thread so as to not take this over.

Madwand99

2013-11-14, 04:52 PM

Your build starts with Unarmed Swordsage. Since that's not a properly statted variant, I'm curious which features you designed it around. (E.g. Just Monk unarmed progression? IUS? SUS? Flurry?)

I'm also not familiar with Jade Phoenix Psion. Is that an adaptation of the JPM?

The build doesn't really care if you use any Unarmed Swordsage features or not. All Unarmed Swordsage provides is the ability to do non-lethal more easily. Maybe some DMs would let you combine unarmed strikes with natural attacks, but it isn't necessary to do so.

The link to JPP is in the notes: http://www.big-metto.net/RP_Wiki/index.php?title=JPP. It's a straightforward adaptation, reccommended by a few on this forum and others.

Metahuman1

2013-11-14, 06:08 PM

I gotcha. This is smart. I like smart. An unexpectedly smart kitty build using Dex and Int. I'm really starting to like this.

This is all assuming that drawing and sheathing claws satisfies the Iaijutsu Master requirement. It does make the build a teensy bit MAD (Int + Dex + Cha), but I can see the synergy. It's a little bit glorious. Again, it does require a lot - Iaijutsu Master has some substantial feat taxes (including Weapon Focus (katana) and BAB requirements, and a Lawful alignment requirement. That said, if I could surmount that? Yowza.

Okay, now this is some sound advice. Basically, using Setting Sun to overwhelm larger opponents, using Dex, IF and various Factotum tricks to boost the pain (and AC!), all without being dependent on Str... It's kind of genius.

My imaginary hat is off to you on this one.

Yeah, it does require the DM to be, agreeable on this one. But here's the thing, there all helpful, but the only stat I'd say is hyper important to max is Dex. Int and Cha are very helpful, but there not gonna make the build unplayable if they stay in the 16-20 range for most of the characters career. Heck, a 16 Cha is still +27 damage per hit if you optimize your Iai-jutsu skill check like you should and you DON'T get double Cha to damage per die. If you do it goes up too +54 damage per hit, that's on top of everything else. A 20 Cha get's you +45 or +90 damage per hit. And remember, that's on top of your damage dice themselves form the Iai-jutsu check, the bonus form knowledge devotion, which if you invest decent ranks and possibly some other skill boosters and say a 16 int should be a fairly consistent +5 before too long, and Giant Killing Style which get's you another +8 on a human, +12 on a Troll, +16 on an Abolith, and so on. And that's not even factoring in things like using Factotums inspiration points to Add Int to damage, or enchantment bonuses form a necklace of natural weapons/amulet of mighty fists/magic fang spell.

Or other things, like making LOT'S of attacks that all do that.

As to the others, yeah, it's feat intensive, but for the most part doable, and it has an alignment requirement, but if you can get it, the pay off is gonna be massive. Personally, the biggest hurtle is convening your DM that rectactable claws count of Iai-jutsu. See below for an alternative approach if he says no.

Here's a slightly different build idea.

Cloistered Cleric 1/ Rogue 1/ Scout 1/ Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian 1/ Swordsage 1/ Ranger X.

Feat: Weapons Finesse, from cleric, Travel Devotion, Luck Devotion, Knowledge Devotion, Swift Hunter and Swift Ambusher, Jack of All Trades, Improved Skirmish, Confound The Big Folk, Underfoot Combatant, TWF line from ranger.

Use Cloistered Cleric and a not absolute dump (though not necessarily a major prioritization of) Int, and possibly some check boosting Items, to make the checks for Knowledge Devotion. Have a few Nightsticks handy to fuel Travel devotion and Luck Devotion. Pick favored enemy's that are immune to Precision damage like Skirmish or Sneak Attack.

In a round, start in Giant Killing Style Stance from swordsage, Charge, full TWF attack with the ranger bonus feats and the Barbarians Pounce, using Luck Devotion to get better rolls on the attacks, Knowledge devotion to boost your damage and your too hit even further, Skirmish/Improved Skirmish from scout/ranger/swift hunter and if your DM will rule they stack sneak attack form Confound the Big Folk/Underfoot Combatant/Ranger/Scout/Swift Hunter/Swift Ambusher/Rouge to further make those attacks hurt a LOT, and Weapons Finesse to help you not need Str to land hits.

Then when you've done all of this, Travel Devotion to swift action move away, forcing them to waste time trying to chase you if they want to hit you and setting you up for next round.

It's mostly more RAW stable with less DM interpretation involved (though you may still loose the sneak attack part of the trick to that.), though it is a bit less powerful.

Red Fel

2013-11-14, 07:06 PM

The build doesn't really care if you use any Unarmed Swordsage features or not. All Unarmed Swordsage provides is the ability to do non-lethal more easily. Maybe some DMs would let you combine unarmed strikes with natural attacks, but it isn't necessary to do so.

Hmm. That raises an interesting question - can a Tibbit in ittybittykittyform use Maneuvers? I mean, obviously, the ones that require grappling might be complicated, but something like Diamond Mind's Concentration-checks-win-every-save counters might not be out of the question.

And it would be funny to see a kitty use a Desert Wind strike and suddenly catch on fire. Seriously funny.

All that said, I can dig it. I really like the feel for Swordsage on a Tibbit, particularly using Shadow Hand, Setting Sun and Diamond Mind. (Hmm... SSN, possibly?)

The link to JPP is in the notes: http://www.big-metto.net/RP_Wiki/index.php?title=JPP. It's a straightforward adaptation, reccommended by a few on this forum and others.

Ooh! Now that looks interesting, there. Admittedly, in some ways it's more powerful than JPM - expending PP is a lot easier than burning spell slots. But I appreciate the potential there. I like the potential, and Emerald Immolation definitely gives off a "nine lives" kind of vibe.

Yeah, it does require the DM to be, agreeable on this one. But here's the thing, there all helpful, but the only stat I'd say is hyper important to max is Dex. Int and Cha are very helpful, but there not gonna make the build unplayable if they stay in the 16-20 range for most of the characters career. Heck, a 16 Cha is still +27 damage per hit if you optimize your Iai-jutsu skill check like you should and you DON'T get double Cha to damage per die. If you do it goes up too +54 damage per hit, that's on top of everything else. A 20 Cha get's you +45 or +90 damage per hit. And remember, that's on top of your damage dice themselves form the Iai-jutsu check, the bonus form knowledge devotion, which if you invest decent ranks and possibly some other skill boosters and say a 16 int should be a fairly consistent +5 before too long, and Giant Killing Style which get's you another +8 on a human, +12 on a Troll, +16 on an Abolith, and so on. And that's not even factoring in things like using Factotums inspiration points to Add Int to damage, or enchantment bonuses form a necklace of natural weapons/amulet of mighty fists/magic fang spell.

Or other things, like making LOT'S of attacks that all do that.

As to the others, yeah, it's feat intensive, but for the most part doable, and it has an alignment requirement, but if you can get it, the pay off is gonna be massive. Personally, the biggest hurtle is convening your DM that rectactable claws count of Iai-jutsu. See below for an alternative approach if he says no.

Here's a slightly different build idea.

Cloistered Cleric 1/ Rogue 1/ Scout 1/ Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian 1/ Swordsage 1/ Ranger X.

Feat: Weapons Finesse, from cleric, Travel Devotion, Luck Devotion, Knowledge Devotion, Swift Hunter and Swift Ambusher, Jack of All Trades, Improved Skirmish, Confound The Big Folk, Underfoot Combatant, TWF line from ranger.

Use Cloistered Cleric and a not absolute dump (though not necessarily a major prioritization of) Int, and possibly some check boosting Items, to make the checks for Knowledge Devotion. Have a few Nightsticks handy to fuel Travel devotion and Luck Devotion. Pick favored enemy's that are immune to Precision damage like Skirmish or Sneak Attack.

In a round, start in Giant Killing Style Stance from swordsage, Charge, full TWF attack with the ranger bonus feats and the Barbarians Pounce, using Luck Devotion to get better rolls on the attacks, Knowledge devotion to boost your damage and your too hit even further, Skirmish/Improved Skirmish from scout/ranger/swift hunter and if your DM will rule they stack sneak attack form Confound the Big Folk/Underfoot Combatant/Ranger/Scout/Swift Hunter/Swift Ambusher/Rouge to further make those attacks hurt a LOT, and Weapons Finesse to help you not need Str to land hits.

Then when you've done all of this, Travel Devotion to swift action move away, forcing them to waste time trying to chase you if they want to hit you and setting you up for next round.

It's mostly more RAW stable with less DM interpretation involved (though you may still loose the sneak attack part of the trick to that.), though it is a bit less powerful.

Hmm, I observed a big problem: You can't get Giant Killing Style from one level of Swordsage. Regardless of your IL, Swordsage at first level says "You begin play with knowledge of one 1st-level stance from any discipline open to you." That's explicit. You need at least one more level (you get a second stance at SS 2) to get Giant Killing Style.

All that said, while you make some excellent points in this second build, it's extremely dip-reliant. Admittedly, your previous one is as well, but we could swap out the Marshal level (alas, losing Motivate Cha) for the requisite SS level. Meeting the requirements of Iaijutsu would still take quite a few levels, even using Factotum and Swordsage.

Let me step back and outline it for myself. It requires BAB +6 Iaijutsu Focus 9 ranks Feats: Improved Initiative, Quick Draw, Weapon Focus (katana)
Already, we're looking at three feats, which means at least 6 levels. We're looking at classes with 3/4 BAB, which means 8+ levels. And we're looking at Iaijutsu Focus, which is only a class skill for Factotum in this build. Hence, it requires at least 6 levels of Factotum (6+3=9) to get the necessary ranks.

So let's see what happens if we go Factotum 6/ Swordsage 2. At this point, assuming we take only the prereq feats, we have the necessary feats and skill ranks. Unfortunately, Factotum 6 gets us +4 BAB; SS 2 gets us +1. We're still 1 BAB short. But on the other hand, if we go Factotum 7/SS 2, we have the feats, the skill ranks, and the +6 BAB necessary. Thus, the build could be Factotum 7/ SS 2/ Iaijutsu Master 5/ Factotum +6. As a bonus, the ability to cast spells as SLAs is fantastic because it functions even in ittybittykittyform. This build covers feats up through level 6; it still leaves room for both Underfoot Combat and Confound the Big Folk. As further good news, both Factotum and Swordsage feature Tumble as a class skill, making 10 ranks on that a piece of cake.

I like that build, Meta. Don't sell yourself short on it. It really only depends on that sheathing interpretation. Consider this. Ordinarily, drawing a weapon requires a move action. However, Quick Draw turns it into a free action. I sincerely doubt that a cat's claws require an entire move action to unsheathe. (If you've ever played with a cat before, you know exactly what I mean.) However, I think a reasonable DM would acknowledge that Quick Draw, as a feat tax which is otherwise unnecessary for ittybittykittyclaws, makes it reasonable to treat that action - which would likely be a free or swift action anyway - as unsheathing. Pay the fee, ride the ride.

So we have an underfoot fighter via Factotum/Swordsage/Iaijutsu master. And we have an idea for a Telepath/Incarnate that's pretty juicy. And we have this Erudite concept that's still a bit of a stretch for me, but I'm trying. Any others before we start delving into the kitty-gritty?

Metahuman1

2013-11-14, 07:49 PM

Well yes, and Giant Killing style isn't strictly required on either build, it's just nice. Nice enough to put 2 levels in if needed, but not essential so the SS dip can be lost if needed.

And I've presently got 3 cats at my house, so yes, I totally agree that "drawing" and "Sheathing" those claws ought to be a free/none action, a swift action at most.

As for the other build, it looses little if you drop Rogue.

Cloistered cleric 1/ Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian 1/ Scout 1/ Ranger X/ Swordsage 1/ Ranger X.

4 1 level dips in a 20 level build, 1 of which can be put off as long as you like while the build comes online. Makes for an uber mobile all over the place whirling blender of death.

Other ideas. Hmmmm.

Buy a collar of perpetual attendance.

Bard 1/ Totemist 2/ Any Psionic class you like with access to the compression Power and if you also fancy it, the Hussle Power, X levels/ Swordsage 1/ Bard X.

Totemist gives you a few soulmelds, and Essence is Con based so it doesn't raise MAD. Get the shoulder one that gives you perfect maneuverability flight. Beyond that, nab any that will boost Stealth skills.

The major thing you want out of Psionics. You want to use the Incarnum Recharge Trick to not run out of PP, Synchronicity + Linked Power with Augmented Compression to keep yourself down to Fine size all the time with out losing actions, and Hussel to always have a swift action to move around.

So your always fine sized unless you wish not to be, always flying with if memory serves Perfect maneuverability, and pretty much able to always move.

Swordsage is there for one thing, child of shadows stance. Auto Concealment that, if I remember right, is Extraordinary. It means you can Hide pretty much anywhere, any time. Use the rest of your maneuvers for good counters like concentration in place of a save or sense motive to not get hit or the like, or mobility options like shadow hand teleports.

Now here's were it starts getting interesting.

Take Melodic Casting, Jack of All Trades, Subsonics, and Darkstalker on Bard, and prioritize Stats as such. Cha>Int>Dex>Con>Wis>Str. Unless you can get keen intellect or force of personality, in which case, swap Wis and Str.

Consider adding the Dark and Shadow creature templates if you wanna be extreme.

And just for good measure, prioritize bluff ranks, and invest in combat panache, a feat form PHB II.

You stink in melee combat, but your a strong spell slinger who can hide anywhere, never be detected, throw out spells with out giving yourself away, buff your allies with bardic music, and preform a wide variety of skill related jobs, and as a kicker, your all but impossible to hit.

Waker

2013-11-14, 08:56 PM

Okay. Let me start by saying, awesomesauce. I love how you worked Incarnum in there, too - although I'm not sure whether Soulmelds will still function properly in kittyform. According to RAW, magic items etc. that are worn become inert while in kittyform; the same might apply to Soulmelds. On the other hand, it's worth thinking about... Hmm.

I love the flavor angle. Kitty as master manipulator works so well. And Shatter Mind Blank is a smart choice.

Admittedly, I'd play this as non-evil, but even as a Chaotic build, it's delicious.

Pg 170 of Magic of Incarnum has this to say

Access to a chakra does not necessarily mean that the creature can wear magic items associated with that body slot equivalent. For example, a horse can’t wear gloves of Dexterity, even though its hands chakra is available for soulmelds.
A creature’s access to chakras depends on its current physical form, not its natural form. Thus, a character who uses polymorph to turn into a snake loses access to his hands chakra. If he takes on a form that lacks a chakra to which he currently has a soulmeld bound, that bind is lost until the character assumes a form that allows it. At that point, the character must unshape and reshape the meld in order to bind it to the chakra again.
Your cat form wouldn't prohibit you from utilizing any soulmelds. The only potential issue would be the shifting back and forth. On pg 49, it describes some of the ways a soulmeld behaves.

A shaped soulmeld acts as a normal object that might be worn, such as boots, armor, or a robe except for the following: they cannot be removed from the individual wearing them, they cannot be damaged except as specifically noted and they don’t have a weight (though they can restrict movement, thus giving an armor check penalty if applicable). Sadly this doesn't include a clause about retaining the meld when you alter forms, so by RAW it would appear that the meld is suppressed.

DMVerdandi

2013-11-14, 09:31 PM

Red Fel

2013-11-14, 09:38 PM

Well yes, and Giant Killing style isn't strictly required on either build, it's just nice. Nice enough to put 2 levels in if needed, but not essential so the SS dip can be lost if needed.

Frankly, I think it's brilliant. I love the idea of Giant Killing Stance, particularly on kung-fu kitty. Given that ittybittykittyform is Tiny, more or less everything will be larger, which means that ittybittykittyform is not only scouting/espionage viable, but combat-viable to boot. That's just delicious. And only one additional level of Swordsage won't break the bank.

As for the other build, it looses little if you drop Rogue.

Cloistered cleric 1/ Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian 1/ Scout 1/ Ranger X/ Swordsage 1/ Ranger X.

4 1 level dips in a 20 level build, 1 of which can be put off as long as you like while the build comes online. Makes for an uber mobile all over the place whirling blender of death.

Okay, let's see if I follow this one. CC for the various Devotion feats, and the TUs to fuel them. Spirit Lion Barb for Pounce. Scout for a mobility-based SA... So why not Rogue? Only two differences I see are (1) Scout's SA is mobility-based, Rogue's is flatfooted-based, and (2) Scout has a d8 to Rogue's d6 Hit Die. Or did I miss something?

Ranger... I'm still trying to figure out its purpose. It's there for TWF, right? And an animal companion and a smattering of spells? Is there a reason I need a bunch of Ranger levels to TWF properly? I'm still not seeing the why of Ranger.

Other ideas. Hmmmm.

Buy a collar of perpetual attendance.

Obviously.

Bard 1/ Totemist 2/ Any Psionic class you like with access to the compression Power and if you also fancy it, the Hussle Power, X levels/ Swordsage 1/ Bard X.

Totemist gives you a few soulmelds, and Essence is Con based so it doesn't raise MAD. Get the shoulder one that gives you perfect maneuverability flight. Beyond that, nab any that will boost Stealth skills.

Interesting. And, admittedly, nobody expects and acid-spitting kitty.

The major thing you want out of Psionics. You want to use the Incarnum Recharge Trick to not run out of PP, Synchronicity + Linked Power with Augmented Compression to keep yourself down to Fine size all the time with out losing actions, and Hussel to always have a swift action to move around.

Okay, slow way down here. Remember how I said I was rusty on Psionics? Yeah, anytime someone throws out terms like "Synchronicity + Linked Power with Augmented Compression" I get a bit confused. So let me see if I have this.

Synchronicity lets you ready a standard action. Linked Power lets you manifest one power this round, one in the next. Compression allows you to reduce your size, and if augmented, you can increase the size reduction, decrease the action, or increase the duration. And Hustle, for the cost of a swift action, lets you take a move action.

How exactly do those all fit together, pray tell?

So your always fine sized unless you wish not to be, always flying with if memory serves Perfect maneuverability, and pretty much able to always move.

Technically, the Tibbit is Tiny sized in ittybittykittyform. Is there further advantage to being Fine? And as a side note, I do like the idea of flying kitty, but technically the Collar of Perpetual Attendance accomplishes that (an Unseen Servant can carry a cat, after all).

Swordsage is there for one thing, child of shadows stance. Auto Concealment that, if I remember right, is Extraordinary. It means you can Hide pretty much anywhere, any time. Use the rest of your maneuvers for good counters like concentration in place of a save or sense motive to not get hit or the like, or mobility options like shadow hand teleports.

Interesting. So we're going in a different direction here - Shadow Hand instead of Setting Sun. Also, according to text, CoS is Su, not Ex. But that's neither here nor there.

Now here's were it starts getting interesting.

Take Melodic Casting, Jack of All Trades, Subsonics, and Darkstalker on Bard, and prioritize Stats as such. Cha>Int>Dex>Con>Wis>Str. Unless you can get keen intellect or force of personality, in which case, swap Wis and Str.

Consider adding the Dark and Shadow creature templates if you wanna be extreme.

And just for good measure, prioritize bluff ranks, and invest in combat panache, a feat form PHB II.

You stink in melee combat, but your a strong spell slinger who can hide anywhere, never be detected, throw out spells with out giving yourself away, buff your allies with bardic music, and preform a wide variety of skill related jobs, and as a kicker, your all but impossible to hit.

Interesting. One flaw I see, though. Melodic Casting lets me make a Perform check in place of a Concentration check. Even assuming I have a solid Perform skill, why would I not want near-perfect Concentration for my Diamond Mind saves? It seems I'm creating more work for myself by doing so.

A further issue arises with regard to casting. I'm reasonably sure that unless I take things like Eschew Materials, Silent Casting and Still Casting, I'll have some issues slinging spells in ittybittykittyform. Admittedly, it does pose an interesting limitation on the character - kitty form for some things, monstrous humanoid form for others - but it detracts from the utility. The prior build still made kitty-mode combat-viable; this one basically writes it off.

All that aside? It's a juicy build. Maneuverable, stealthy, untouchable. Sneaky and cunning, very feline-appropriate. I admit, I still like the other one better, but this has solid stand-alone merit.

Pg 170 of Magic of Incarnum has this to say

Your cat form wouldn't prohibit you from utilizing any soulmelds. The only potential issue would be the shifting back and forth. On pg 49, it describes some of the ways a soulmeld behaves.
Sadly this doesn't include a clause about retaining the meld when you alter forms, so by RAW it would appear that the meld is suppressed.

Very interesting. So it appears that, as ittybittykittyform technically has the equivalent of hands, body, legs, waist, etc., it could technically use soulmelds. As a further aside, I've re-read the Tibbit entry, and found this useful snippet:

A tibbit's equipment usually transforms to become part of her cat body. She loses the benefits of any weapons, shields, armor, or robes she wears or carries. Items that require a physical apparatus to function, such as a ring or a pair of boots, shift to adopt a form suitable to a cat, such as a collar or anklet and continue to provide their benefits. (Emphasis added.)

So it appears that things like hands, waist, or feet slots may transmute themselves into a more kitty-appropriate shape, while weapons or armor would be suppressed. In theory, then, a Tibbit Incarnate or Totemist might be able to retain items like soulmeld boots, scarves, belts and the like.

I like it. I like it a lot.

Stp erudite (as always with me:smallcool:)

I think an interesting route to take would be to select your favorite school of spellcasting/psionic discipline and to focus on it. also using things like spell/power themes.

Erudites don't have large amounts of unique powers per day, so it lends itself well to re-casting certain spells. A necromancy cat could be pretty cool. Like the stereotypical black cat, that is just into evil spells and such. Summon undead spells FTW.

And then just roleplay as an evil, EVIL cat. But not necessarily towards everyone, just towards people who deserve it. Pull out illusion spells to punish, and necromancy to maim. Show your cat junk to people, and poop in shoes.
Adventure for the love of money, not to spend, just cause it's the best kind of shiny...And for world domination/serving your dark lords and masters.

Illuminati cat.:smallcool:

... evil kitty... :smalleek:

Interesting suggestion. But I think we're trying to avoid making people want to kill the little Tibbit if we can.

DMVerdandi

2013-11-14, 09:46 PM

... evil kitty... :smalleek:

Interesting suggestion. But I think we're trying to avoid making people want to kill the little Tibbit if we can.

More enemies, MORE EXPERIENCE POINTS.
Let them fear the cat who rests on a throne littered with the bodies of dead pigeons, mice, hairballs, and humans who thought it was funny to punt cats. No one laughs when the cat uses greater mighty whallop and punts back.

Waker

2013-11-14, 09:58 PM

So it appears that things like hands, waist, or feet slots may transmute themselves into a more kitty-appropriate shape, while weapons or armor would be suppressed. In theory, then, a Tibbit Incarnate or Totemist might be able to retain items like soulmeld boots, scarves, belts and the like.
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y47/Omnikar/CatBoots_zps804fb732.jpg (http://s2.photobucket.com/user/Omnikar/media/CatBoots_zps804fb732.jpg.html)Indeed you could.

Also should you go with the Tripping Cat build, you might find Pebble Underfoot (Dragon Compendium) to be handy. +4 bonus against bigger creatures and they don't get a trip response if you fail.

avr

2013-11-14, 10:28 PM

To flesh out one of those psionic ideas a little - Stealth Kitty, aka the Cheshire Cat Mk II.

Psion (seer) 5 / Psion Uncarnate 10 / Psion +5

Take the Burrowing Power feat and the Clairvoyant Sense power and you can telepathically manipulate people or shoot powers at them through walls from character level 3. At character level 5 fate link (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/fateLink.htm) explains why you're playing with that mouse. From character level 7 you can walk through walls and do the Cheshire Cat bit. Various telekinetic powers exist, clairtangent hand (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/clairtangentHand.htm) is one that only seers get which is amusing - the ultimate in messing with people from far far away.

It's not amazing as a level 20 build (max 8th level powers), but you could have fun getting there.

Metahuman1

2013-11-14, 10:36 PM

Frankly, I think it's brilliant. I love the idea of Giant Killing Stance, particularly on kung-fu kitty. Given that ittybittykittyform is Tiny, more or less everything will be larger, which means that ittybittykittyform is not only scouting/espionage viable, but combat-viable to boot. That's just delicious. And only one additional level of Swordsage won't break the bank.

Okay, let's see if I follow this one. CC for the various Devotion feats, and the TUs to fuel them. Spirit Lion Barb for Pounce. Scout for a mobility-based SA... So why not Rogue? Only two differences I see are (1) Scout's SA is mobility-based, Rogue's is flatfooted-based, and (2) Scout has a d8 to Rogue's d6 Hit Die. Or did I miss something?

Ranger... I'm still trying to figure out its purpose. It's there for TWF, right? And an animal companion and a smattering of spells? Is there a reason I need a bunch of Ranger levels to TWF properly? I'm still not seeing the why of Ranger.

Obviously.

Interesting. And, admittedly, nobody expects and acid-spitting kitty.

Okay, slow way down here. Remember how I said I was rusty on Psionics? Yeah, anytime someone throws out terms like "Synchronicity + Linked Power with Augmented Compression" I get a bit confused. So let me see if I have this.

Synchronicity lets you ready a standard action. Linked Power lets you manifest one power this round, one in the next. Compression allows you to reduce your size, and if augmented, you can increase the size reduction, decrease the action, or increase the duration. And Hustle, for the cost of a swift action, lets you take a move action.

How exactly do those all fit together, pray tell?

Technically, the Tibbit is Tiny sized in ittybittykittyform. Is there further advantage to being Fine? And as a side note, I do like the idea of flying kitty, but technically the Collar of Perpetual Attendance accomplishes that (an Unseen Servant can carry a cat, after all).

Interesting. So we're going in a different direction here - Shadow Hand instead of Setting Sun. Also, according to text, CoS is Su, not Ex. But that's neither here nor there.

Interesting. One flaw I see, though. Melodic Casting lets me make a Perform check in place of a Concentration check. Even assuming I have a solid Perform skill, why would I not want near-perfect Concentration for my Diamond Mind saves? It seems I'm creating more work for myself by doing so.

A further issue arises with regard to casting. I'm reasonably sure that unless I take things like Eschew Materials, Silent Casting and Still Casting, I'll have some issues slinging spells in ittybittykittyform. Admittedly, it does pose an interesting limitation on the character - kitty form for some things, monstrous humanoid form for others - but it detracts from the utility. The prior build still made kitty-mode combat-viable; this one basically writes it off.

All that aside? It's a juicy build. Maneuverable, stealthy, untouchable. Sneaky and cunning, very feline-appropriate. I admit, I still like the other one better, but this has solid stand-alone merit.

Very interesting. So it appears that, as ittybittykittyform technically has the equivalent of hands, body, legs, waist, etc., it could technically use soulmelds. As a further aside, I've re-read the Tibbit entry, and found this useful snippet:

(Emphasis added.)

So it appears that things like hands, waist, or feet slots may transmute themselves into a more kitty-appropriate shape, while weapons or armor would be suppressed. In theory, then, a Tibbit Incarnate or Totemist might be able to retain items like soulmeld boots, scarves, belts and the like.

I like it. I like it a lot.

On the first one, Scout + Ranger + the Swift Hunter feat advances Skirmish with ranger levels. In addition, ranger get's the TWF feats and a full BAB. But here's the kicker. You know how some things are immune to sneak attack/skirmish, like, undead and constructs? If you take things that would normally be immune to skirmish/sneak attack as favored enemy for ranger, and have at least one level of scout and the swift hunter feat, when you trigger your skirmish damage, there immunity is automatically bypassed.

And because you can charge them and then move away, that means it triggers every round, and the higher level you get the fewer things that can be immune too your biggest damage dealing trick. And then of course, your not there for them to hit when there turn comes up.

and yes, CC for the devotion feats cause there really good, and the turn undead and knowledge skills as class skills to fuel them, and Barb for Pounce, and SS for Giant Killing stance cause that stacks with the charge, knowledge devotion and Skirmish damage.

The basic gist of the trick for the other build is that with out loosing your action economy or running out of PP, you can fly around at your movement speed on your swift action and remain fine sized.

The advantages to Fine Sized are you get a much bigger boost to your Hide/Move Silently Checks, and you'll get even more out of underfoot combatant if something get's into Melee with you. It goes form a +8 Size Mod to AC with underfoot combatant to a +32 and a +8 to Hide/Move Silently to a +32 if I remember right (away form books right this second.).

Which, combined with always having a free move action to use to make a bluff check and add it to your AC with Combat Panach + insane AC form super high dex and armor, adds greatly to the undetectable and untouchable aspects of the build.

And totemist was picked as that soulmeld they get for flight is just more mobile.

Now, here's the fun part,

You have an unseen servant, a feat that let's you cast spells while using bardic music, and a feat that makes your music not make noise. You grab and instrument, that the servant plays, and you use that for bardic music + sub sonic's. You keep that going, and you use the unheard music to cast your spells. That's how you get your magic off while remaining undetected.

And since Melodic casting clearly says you can use Preform instead of concentration anytime you'd use concentration, it just means you don't need to sink skills into concentration. By new default, Preform covers bardic music, casting spells, and Diamond Mind Maneuvers.

The builds not really potent enough to go solo I'm afraid, but it could be a hugely powerful and beneficial build for support.

Kuulvheysoon

2013-11-14, 10:43 PM

avr

2013-11-14, 11:26 PM

Fate link as defence rather than sneaky offence/intimidation. I didn't think of that. For that matter, you could spend your 5th level bonus feat on Expanded Knowledge (Astral Construct), give it assorted resistances and fate link it then ride it into battle. Kitty and her battle chariot.

Red Fel

2013-11-15, 12:06 AM

More enemies, MORE EXPERIENCE POINTS.
Let them fear the cat who rests on a throne littered with the bodies of dead pigeons, mice, hairballs, and humans who thought it was funny to punt cats. No one laughs when the cat uses greater mighty whallop and punts back.

Yes! Of course! Catnip for the Cat God! Yarn for the Yarn Throne!

... Ahem... Maybe slightly less evil.

Indeed you could.

Also should you go with the Tripping Cat build, you might find Pebble Underfoot (Dragon Compendium) to be handy. +4 bonus against bigger creatures and they don't get a trip response if you fail.

Ooh, hello, that does look fun. Although it does overlap a bit with Confound the Big Folk, which also allows unopposed trips. Still, a great way to render enemies prone, even in ittybittykittyform. I do likey.

To flesh out one of those psionic ideas a little - Stealth Kitty, aka the Cheshire Cat Mk II.

Psion (seer) 5 / Psion Uncarnate 10 / Psion +5

Take the Burrowing Power feat and the Clairvoyant Sense power and you can telepathically manipulate people or shoot powers at them through walls from character level 3. At character level 5 fate link (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/fateLink.htm) explains why you're playing with that mouse. From character level 7 you can walk through walls and do the Cheshire Cat bit. Various telekinetic powers exist, clairtangent hand (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/clairtangentHand.htm) is one that only seers get which is amusing - the ultimate in messing with people from far far away.

It's not amazing as a level 20 build (max 8th level powers), but you could have fun getting there.

Don't fate link a mouse - fate link a Tiny Monstrous Scorpion. Due to the wording of the power, it's effectively really cheap mind blank for 10 min/ML. Vermin are all immune to mind-affecting effects.

Fate link as defence rather than sneaky offence/intimidation. I didn't think of that. For that matter, you could spend your 5th level bonus feat on Expanded Knowledge (Astral Construct), give it assorted resistances and fate link it then ride it into battle. Kitty and her battle chariot.

... Wowzers. You guys don't mess around, huh?

Okay, first off, that Cheshire Cat idea... You mentioned that earlier, right? Let's have a look. Psion Uncarnate is... Hmm. It's very nice if my goal is simply to sling Powers unmolested. The capstone is basically to run around nekkid and immaterial forever. That's both awesome and a little creepy. (Ghostkitty?) It's definitely a Cheshire Cat-worthy build. And I like its simplicity - it's just Psi and PU, no extras, no frills.

That said... I just don't feel it. I'm sorry I don't have a better explanation, but I think the "turning into a cat" gimmick is quite enough; turning incorporeal on top of that just seems like overkill.

Now, as for your Fate Link tricks... Those are genius. And the one with the rat is a little bit evil. But wow. Those are some neat tricks, regardless.

Kitty and her battle chariot. Heh.

On the first one, Scout + Ranger + the Swift Hunter feat advances Skirmish with ranger levels. In addition, ranger get's the TWF feats and a full BAB. But here's the kicker. You know how some things are immune to sneak attack/skirmish, like, undead and constructs? If you take things that would normally be immune to skirmish/sneak attack as favored enemy for ranger, and have at least one level of scout and the swift hunter feat, when you trigger your skirmish damage, there immunity is automatically bypassed.

And because you can charge them and then move away, that means it triggers every round, and the higher level you get the fewer things that can be immune too your biggest damage dealing trick. And then of course, your not there for them to hit when there turn comes up.

Okay, now that is useful. Now I see why you picked that over Rogue.

and yes, CC for the devotion feats cause there really good, and the turn undead and knowledge skills as class skills to fuel them, and Barb for Pounce, and SS for Giant Killing stance cause that stacks with the charge, knowledge devotion and Skirmish damage.

Yay, I got something right! Good for me!

The basic gist of the trick for the other build is that with out loosing your action economy or running out of PP, you can fly around at your movement speed on your swift action and remain fine sized.

The advantages to Fine Sized are you get a much bigger boost to your Hide/Move Silently Checks, and you'll get even more out of underfoot combatant if something get's into Melee with you. It goes form a +8 Size Mod to AC with underfoot combatant to a +32 and a +8 to Hide/Move Silently to a +32 if I remember right (away form books right this second.).

Which, combined with always having a free move action to use to make a bluff check and add it to your AC with Combat Panach + insane AC form super high dex and armor, adds greatly to the undetectable and untouchable aspects of the build.

And totemist was picked as that soulmeld they get for flight is just more mobile.

Whoa, throwing around more terms here. Hold on a sec. I don't think Combat Panache does what you think it does - it either lets you redirect an attack, or play dead, or demoralize an opponent.

And while I'll grant you being a Fine-sized dodgekitty with outrageous AC and perfect maneuverability flight is pretty sweet, I should point out that it makes me character a non-entity in combat - Str goes down the crapper, meaning attacks become entirely Dex-dependent or spell/Psi-based. It would enable me to trip effectively, but then again, Underfoot and Confound already let me use a larger opponent's size as an AC bonus - do I really need more?

Now, here's the fun part,

You have an unseen servant, a feat that let's you cast spells while using bardic music, and a feat that makes your music not make noise. You grab and instrument, that the servant plays, and you use that for bardic music + sub sonic's. You keep that going, and you use the unheard music to cast your spells. That's how you get your magic off while remaining undetected.

And since Melodic casting clearly says you can use Preform instead of concentration anytime you'd use concentration, it just means you don't need to sink skills into concentration. By new default, Preform covers bardic music, casting spells, and Diamond Mind Maneuvers.

The builds not really potent enough to go solo I'm afraid, but it could be a hugely powerful and beneficial build for support.

Hmm... I don't think I buy your read on those things.

First, the Bard uses Bardic Music; he can't simply order an Unseen Servant to do it. Even if he could, it would be the US' Bardic Music, not the Bard's; I doubt that qualifies for those features.

Second, Melodic Casting says you can use Perform "[w]henever a Concentration check would be required to cast a spell or use a spell-like ability[,]" not simply whenever. The feat doesn't simply replace Concentration with Perform. Diamond Mind counters are neither spells nor SLAs, I don't think Melodic Casting applies.

All that aside, that Scout/Ranger build is sounding interesting. But let's simplify.

First, let's lose CC. That just feels cluttered. I get that the Domain Devotions are nice, but let's be honest, I'm not going to stack TU uses for them. I mean, I guess we could keep it if we had to, but it's so jarringly different from the rest of the build that it hurts. So let's look at the rest.

Spirit Lion Barbarian 1. Keep it for Pounce. Illiteracy is also a nice touch. Scout 1, keep it for Skirmish. Remaining levels will be Ranger and Swordsage, fine. Emphasis on Setting Sun for throws and tricks, Desert Wind for maneuverability, Diamond Mind counters, and Tiger Claw for TWF goodness. Use Swift Hunter, favored enemy (something immune to crits), good times. Take Underfoot Combat, Confound the Big Folk, and Pebble Underfoot, drop any enemy you get close to even in ittybittykittyform.

Anything I'm missing? Or that you'd want to add? Apart from SLB 1/ Sct 1, how many levels of SS and Ranger do you think are necessary, at a minimum?

Khatoblepas

2013-11-15, 02:30 AM

First, the Bard uses Bardic Music; he can't simply order an Unseen Servant to do it. Even if he could, it would be the US' Bardic Music, not the Bard's; I doubt that qualifies for those features.

Second, Melodic Casting says you can use Perform "[w]henever a Concentration check would be required to cast a spell or use a spell-like ability[,]" not simply whenever. The feat doesn't simply replace Concentration with Perform. Diamond Mind counters are neither spells nor SLAs, I don't think Melodic Casting applies.

To get Perform on Diamond Mind manuevers, you want the Undersong spell:

When you cast this spell, a familiar and soothing song wells up in your mind.
The song does not distract you from any task at hand—on the contrary, by humming along to the tune you can focus your mind with ease.
As long as this spell is in effect, you can use any Perform check in place of a Concentration check.
You must decide which skill to use before any check is made.

Note that Perform (Weapon Drill) is not barred from being used in this manner. It's also a personal range spell, so if you can persist it, do so.

Metahuman1

2013-11-15, 01:01 PM

Okay, now that is useful. Now I see why you picked that over Rogue.

Yay, I got something right! Good for me!

Whoa, throwing around more terms here. Hold on a sec. I don't think Combat Panache does what you think it does - it either lets you redirect an attack, or play dead, or demoralize an opponent.

And while I'll grant you being a Fine-sized dodgekitty with outrageous AC and perfect maneuverability flight is pretty sweet, I should point out that it makes me character a non-entity in combat - Str goes down the crapper, meaning attacks become entirely Dex-dependent or spell/Psi-based. It would enable me to trip effectively, but then again, Underfoot and Confound already let me use a larger opponent's size as an AC bonus - do I really need more?

Hmm... I don't think I buy your read on those things.

First, the Bard uses Bardic Music; he can't simply order an Unseen Servant to do it. Even if he could, it would be the US' Bardic Music, not the Bard's; I doubt that qualifies for those features.

Second, Melodic Casting says you can use Perform "[w]henever a Concentration check would be required to cast a spell or use a spell-like ability[,]" not simply whenever. The feat doesn't simply replace Concentration with Perform. Diamond Mind counters are neither spells nor SLAs, I don't think Melodic Casting applies.

All that aside, that Scout/Ranger build is sounding interesting. But let's simplify.

First, let's lose CC. That just feels cluttered. I get that the Domain Devotions are nice, but let's be honest, I'm not going to stack TU uses for them. I mean, I guess we could keep it if we had to, but it's so jarringly different from the rest of the build that it hurts. So let's look at the rest.

Spirit Lion Barbarian 1. Keep it for Pounce. Illiteracy is also a nice touch. Scout 1, keep it for Skirmish. Remaining levels will be Ranger and Swordsage, fine. Emphasis on Setting Sun for throws and tricks, Desert Wind for maneuverability, Diamond Mind counters, and Tiger Claw for TWF goodness. Use Swift Hunter, favored enemy (something immune to crits), good times. Take Underfoot Combat, Confound the Big Folk, and Pebble Underfoot, drop any enemy you get close to even in ittybittykittyform.

Anything I'm missing? Or that you'd want to add? Apart from SLB 1/ Sct 1, how many levels of SS and Ranger do you think are necessary, at a minimum?

Well, that was part of the point, I gave you 2 builds that are designed to get in there and dismantle things with your claws in melee, and so I figured for the third one I'd make it more skills/spell casting as the draw.

I know there's a feat somewhere were as a move action you make a bluff check and the other person rolls sense motive, and if they loose you add the bluff check to AC. I though it was combat panache. Maybe I misremembered.

And the thing with D&D is that offense scales WAY faster then defense, so if Defenses other then "just win initiative and wipe them out before they get a shot off." are gonna work, they have to be Intensely optimized. You had damage output on the other builds so I was a bit less worried about it there. Besides, a much more defensively/magically/support focused build seemed like a nice change of pace.

As for the read, I've done similar with DM's before, so, take of that what you will. Though I will concede I was mistaken on Melodic Casting it seems. That said, a Lesser Rod of Persist should allow Persisting of the Undersong spell.

As to the other build,

Here's the problem with loosing CC. Knowledge Devotion and Luck Devotion were really good and helpful since they made it much easier to hit the target, and in knowledge devotions case made it hurt more, but they weren't essential.

What was really critical was having access to Travel Devotion for the Swift action movement, because that meant even if you couldn't charge for some reason you still had a chance to close the 20ft with your opponent and take out a full attack, and that if you COULD charge, you could that same round move away form them so that if there still alive they will have to chase you if they want to hit you for tearing there arm off.

Now, if it makes it less cluttered and more digestible for you, I suggest doing it this way, get knowledge devotion and a couple of items and ranks in the skills needed to get that +5 out of it (no further investment beyond that required unless you want to dedicate your plentiful skill points to being the party's know it all knowledge kitty. Which would be admittedly awesome/fun.), and get travel devotion. One maybe Two Night Sticks and your own turn undead pool should be enough to fuel it all day.

Now, for the third one, 2 things you might do. Grab the Time Domain for Improved Initiative as a bonus feat, or the Lust Domain for it's power which gives you more turn undead. Either could be very funny and mechanically sound.

And just fluff it as being a know it all who's really fast when they need to be.

As for Ranger/Swordsage. Looking at it, there is sadly no way to get Improved Evasion as both classes get Evasion too late in the game to stack them for it and get the rangers full combat style, let alone any other dips.

So, I'd advise Closisterd Cleric 1/ Barbarian 1/ Scout 1/ Ranger 1/Swordsage 2/ Ranger 11/ Swordsage 3.

If you insist on dropping CC form the build,

Scout 1/ Barbarian 1/ Ranger 6/ Swordsage 2/ Ranger 6/ Swordsage 4.

Also, random though. If you keep CC, see if you can use SpellCraft to research a 1st level spell that lasts all day, has a long behind casting time, and allows fire damage from Dessert Wind, Just Dessert Wind, Exclusively, to bypass resistance and deal if not full at least partial damage to things with fire immunity.

If you get a go to do that, cast this on yourself at the start of the day, and feel free to pick up good Dessert Wind Maneuvers. Some of them would be A freaking mazing if they weren't normally stonewalled with Fire resistance/immunity after about levels 6-8 or so. So now super mobile Kitty can use SS for more then just the occasional counter or a Stance form time to time to mix it up.

Just a though.

Edit:

Hey, for fun, get a bard in the party somewhere, take leadership or hire someone if needed, and have this be your combat theme song when you use the Dessert Wind Stuff if you go that route.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CvTLAHHEvxA&list=PLCZ1zMlAC-DvfjanCO2wF8oqMY1QbyBRF

Be EVERY kind of awesome!

Vedhin

2013-11-15, 02:06 PM

Hmm, I observed a big problem: You can't get Giant Killing Style from one level of Swordsage. Regardless of your IL, Swordsage at first level says "You begin play with knowledge of one 1st-level stance from any discipline open to you." That's explicit. You need at least one more level (you get a second stance at SS 2) to get Giant Killing Style.

I call "melee can't have nice things" on this. Do DMs make Wizards created at high level adhere to the RAW for spellbooks? Do DMs make martial adpets created at high-level start with a single 1st level stance? Generally, no.
"Begin play" means, by RAW, at character creation.

From the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/sorcererWizard.htm#wizard):

A wizard begins play with a spellbook containing all 0-level wizard spells (except those from her prohibited school or schools, if any; see School Specialization, below) plus three 1st-level spells of your choice. For each point of Intelligence bonus the wizard has, the spellbook holds one additional 1st-level spell of your choice.

Red Fel

2013-11-15, 03:00 PM

To get Perform on Diamond Mind manuevers, you want the Undersong spell:

Note that Perform (Weapon Drill) is not barred from being used in this manner. It's also a personal range spell, so if you can persist it, do so.

See, that's useful, but only for the duration of the spell. And while I dig the idea of using Perform in place of a Concentration check, it doesn't seem necessary if I'm not using Bard, particularly because Performing is a lot harder in ittybittykittyform, while Concentration is not.

Well, that was part of the point, I gave you 2 builds that are designed to get in there and dismantle things with your claws in melee, and so I figured for the third one I'd make it more skills/spell casting as the draw.

I know there's a feat somewhere were as a move action you make a bluff check and the other person rolls sense motive, and if they loose you add the bluff check to AC. I though it was combat panache. Maybe I misremembered.

And the thing with D&D is that offense scales WAY faster then defense, so if Defenses other then "just win initiative and wipe them out before they get a shot off." are gonna work, they have to be Intensely optimized. You had damage output on the other builds so I was a bit less worried about it there. Besides, a much more defensively/magically/support focused build seemed like a nice change of pace.

As for the read, I've done similar with DM's before, so, take of that what you will. Though I will concede I was mistaken on Melodic Casting it seems. That said, a Lesser Rod of Persist should allow Persisting of the Undersong spell.

As mentioned above, Persisting Undersong is an option, but it seems unnecessary unless I'm specifically going the Bard route. I can make Concentration checks; the only reason I need Perform is if I'm going Bard anyway. (Really, who else makes Perform checks? Other than Jumplomancers, perhaps.)

As to the other build,

Here's the problem with loosing CC. Knowledge Devotion and Luck Devotion were really good and helpful since they made it much easier to hit the target, and in knowledge devotions case made it hurt more, but they weren't essential.

What was really critical was having access to Travel Devotion for the Swift action movement, because that meant even if you couldn't charge for some reason you still had a chance to close the 20ft with your opponent and take out a full attack, and that if you COULD charge, you could that same round move away form them so that if there still alive they will have to chase you if they want to hit you for tearing there arm off.

Now, if it makes it less cluttered and more digestible for you, I suggest doing it this way, get knowledge devotion and a couple of items and ranks in the skills needed to get that +5 out of it (no further investment beyond that required unless you want to dedicate your plentiful skill points to being the party's know it all knowledge kitty. Which would be admittedly awesome/fun.), and get travel devotion. One maybe Two Night Sticks and your own turn undead pool should be enough to fuel it all day.

Now, for the third one, 2 things you might do. Grab the Time Domain for Improved Initiative as a bonus feat, or the Lust Domain for it's power which gives you more turn undead. Either could be very funny and mechanically sound.

And just fluff it as being a know it all who's really fast when they need to be.

Hmm. Fair point. And I could see taking Knowledge Devotion, whether I go CC or not; it's way too useful. I'll definitely digest Travel Devotion as well; it's a valuable option. My concern is one of flavor - a Cloistered Cleric, by definition, is someone who has taken to the seclusion of study to refine his connection with his patron deity. That's why he loses Cleric's more martial side and gains Knowledge as a bonus domain. Contrast that with basically everything else in the build - Barbarian, Ranger, and Scout are all about getting down and dirty in the messy outdoors. Swordsage could be either way, admittedly, but the rest kind of clashes. That said, who knows? A Cloistered Cleric of the Cat Lord might function differently than one of a more mundane, less fluffy deity. I'll have to digest it.

As for Ranger/Swordsage. Looking at it, there is sadly no way to get Improved Evasion as both classes get Evasion too late in the game to stack them for it and get the rangers full combat style, let alone any other dips.

So, I'd advise Closisterd Cleric 1/ Barbarian 1/ Scout 1/ Ranger 1/Swordsage 2/ Ranger 11/ Swordsage 3.

If you insist on dropping CC form the build,

Scout 1/ Barbarian 1/ Ranger 6/ Swordsage 2/ Ranger 6/ Swordsage 4. So the focus is on Ranger for TWF combat style, not Swordsage. Gotcha.

An aside, what about the Fangshields Ranger ACFs from Champions of Valor? Since Tibbit is a Monstrous Humanoid, it qualifies as nonhumanoid for the ACF. At level 2, that means Multiattack or INA, then later Weapon Focus. At level 4, it means boosted Effective Druid Level for animal companion (or should I take an ACF that swaps out animal companion for something else? What about swapping out spellcasting?). and at level 5, it means a +1 Sacred bonus to AC during either day or night. Are these worthwhile, do you think?

Also, random though. If you keep CC, see if you can use SpellCraft to research a 1st level spell that lasts all day, has a long behind casting time, and allows fire damage from Dessert Wind, Just Dessert Wind, Exclusively, to bypass resistance and deal if not full at least partial damage to things with fire immunity.

... WHAT.

If you get a go to do that, cast this on yourself at the start of the day, and feel free to pick up good Dessert Wind Maneuvers. Some of them would be A freaking mazing if they weren't normally stonewalled with Fire resistance/immunity after about levels 6-8 or so. So now super mobile Kitty can use SS for more then just the occasional counter or a Stance form time to time to mix it up.

Just a though.

Sonic the Firekitty? :smalleek:

... Awesome.

Edit:

Hey, for fun, get a bard in the party somewhere, take leadership or hire someone if needed, and have this be your combat theme song when you use the Dessert Wind Stuff if you go that route.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CvTLAHHEvxA&list=PLCZ1zMlAC-DvfjanCO2wF8oqMY1QbyBRF

Be EVERY kind of awesome!

I officially need to watch that series now.

I call "melee can't have nice things" on this. Do DMs make Wizards created at high level adhere to the RAW for spellbooks? Do DMs make martial adpets created at high-level start with a single 1st level stance? Generally, no.
"Begin play" means, by RAW, at character creation.

From the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/sorcererWizard.htm#wizard):

There's an argument to be made there, I grant you. But like I said above, I prefer to read these things conservatively, so as to prevent DM meltdown. Besides, if I was going to take the second level of SS anyway, it's no great tragedy.

Metahuman1

2013-11-15, 05:59 PM

Hmm. Fair point. And I could see taking Knowledge Devotion, whether I go CC or not; it's way too useful. I'll definitely digest Travel Devotion as well; it's a valuable option. My concern is one of flavor - a Cloistered Cleric, by definition, is someone who has taken to the seclusion of study to refine his connection with his patron deity. That's why he loses Cleric's more martial side and gains Knowledge as a bonus domain. Contrast that with basically everything else in the build - Barbarian, Ranger, and Scout are all about getting down and dirty in the messy outdoors. Swordsage could be either way, admittedly, but the rest kind of clashes. That said, who knows? A Cloistered Cleric of the Cat Lord might function differently than one of a more mundane, less fluffy deity. I'll have to digest it.

So the focus is on Ranger for TWF combat style, not Swordsage. Gotcha.

An aside, what about the Fangshields Ranger ACFs from Champions of Valor? Since Tibbit is a Monstrous Humanoid, it qualifies as nonhumanoid for the ACF. At level 2, that means Multiattack or INA, then later Weapon Focus. At level 4, it means boosted Effective Druid Level for animal companion (or should I take an ACF that swaps out animal companion for something else? What about swapping out spellcasting?). and at level 5, it means a +1 Sacred bonus to AC during either day or night. Are these worthwhile, do you think?

... WHAT.

Sonic the Firekitty? :smalleek:

... Awesome.

I officially need to watch that series now.

Fluff it Shoulin Monk style, your form a scholarly philosophical order that teaches a certain combat style that's been passed down as sacred to your deity since XXXXXX. The rest just reflects refining that style within the way it's taught, the way you personally tend to fight, and the kinds of fighting experiences you've had that are allowing you to grow through out your career.

The focus is also on Ranger for Favored enemy's to reduce the number of things immune to your skirmish ability, and to advance the damage/AC boosts you get from skirmish while holding a full BAB.

I am not familiar with that AFC, so, does anyone else wanna comment here? Off hand I'm not sure you'd have enough attacks to make good use of it with out going unarmed swordsage to get unarmed Iterative's in there, which might not be a bad idea actually.

Basically what it says. You can use spell craft to research new spells. See if your DM will allow you to Research 1 spell, a 1st level cleric spell, with a very long casting time (Say, 10 minutes or something to balance it.), that lasts 24 hours (Like Endure Elements, for example.) that has a very narrow, specific benefit. In this case, letting Dessert Wind, for all intentions and purposes, be a school it's worth while to learn maneuvers from. Cause Then it's freaking cool. Your preferred fighting tactic remains the same, but you have more of a plan B if a badguy who's smart does his homework and has a shut down for it. (Like any of the numerous monsters with access to divination or high Int and Wis mods should be doing after a certain point.)

Hehe, Sonic the fire Kitty? Can I steal that, cause that's awesome?!

Series can be found here, so far in it's entirety, along with other minor side items and all 4 major protagonists trailers, and the entire sound track, for free, curtsey of it's creators and as such, perfectly legally for free.

http://roosterteeth.com/archive/?sid=rwby&v=more

And the playgrounds current discussion thread can be found here for the series.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=304358

Vedhin

2013-11-15, 06:02 PM

Basically what it says. You can use spell craft to research new spells. See if your DM will allow you to Research 1 spell, a 1st level cleric spell, with a very long casting time (Say, 10 minutes or something to balance it.), that lasts 24 hours (Like Endure Elements, for example.) that has a very narrow, specific benefit.

So you know, for a 24 hour duration spell, casting time isn't a balancing factor unless it takes hours, if then.

Metahuman1

2013-11-15, 06:25 PM

So you know, for a 24 hour duration spell, casting time isn't a balancing factor unless it takes hours, if then.

It's also not the only balancing factor in play. It's a VERY limited thing it effects. It doesn't help fireballs, or the Binders Vestige/Incarnates Soulmeld, It doesn't help the vanilla fighters +1 Flaming Great-sword. It just get's this one thing out of "Useless by level 8 at the latest." too "Starts strong, looses some steam but remains useful for the rest of your career."

And also let's remember, this is gonna be for a character who can cast it 2 times a day if he's lucky and it's CL 1. If it's too much of a problem, the DM can just let enemy's throw Dispel magics at him.

Red Fel

2013-11-15, 08:56 PM

Fluff it Shoulin Monk style, your form a scholarly philosophical order that teaches a certain combat style that's been passed down as sacred to your deity since XXXXXX. The rest just reflects refining that style within the way it's taught, the way you personally tend to fight, and the kinds of fighting experiences you've had that are allowing you to grow through out your career.

Yeah, I can refluff a Cloistered Cleric of the Cat Lord to engage in his "studies" somewhat differently. For example, sunbasking or prancing through the catnip bushes. Very stimulating theological stuff, that. No problem.

The focus is also on Ranger for Favored enemy's to reduce the number of things immune to your skirmish ability, and to advance the damage/AC boosts you get from skirmish while holding a full BAB.

That makes sense, ya.

I am not familiar with that AFC, so, does anyone else wanna comment here? Off hand I'm not sure you'd have enough attacks to make good use of it with out going unarmed swordsage to get unarmed Iterative's in there, which might not be a bad idea actually.

Agreed, let's open the floor.

I mean, I get the advantage of the TWF bit. If I could use the Natural Weapons ACF to include Unarmed Strikes, though, that'd keep me covered both in monstrous humanoid form and in ittybittykittyform, which is a plus. Anybody have any thoughts on the Fangshields ACFs?

And while we're at it, let's look at some of the other stuff. This build already has Cleric casting from one level of CC. Do I really want Ranger casting too? Seems like a good deal of bookkeeping, and might contribute a bit to MAD. On the other hand, Swordsage AC keys off Wis anyway, so that's going to be in the mix regardless. But, for example, Complete Warrior offers a variant that swaps out spells for Fast Movement, along with several per-day SLAs. Complete Champion offers one that replaces spellcasting with bonus feats at 4th, 8th, 11th and 14th levels - since this build takes 12 Ranger levels, that's 3 bonus feats, including Blind Fight, Improved Trip, and others, or alternatively feats taken from a Combat Style list (i.e. Two-Weapon Fighting).

And what about an animal companion? Admittedly, it would have to be something feline, to fit the motif; that could raise some eyebrows, especially if people start looking up other definitions of "companion." (Or "animal husbandry," perhaps?) But there are ACFs for that, too - PHB 2 offers one that replaces animal companion with a nifty flanking function, Dragon Magic swaps it out for a dragonblood one (which leads to nifty Draconic feats), and Complete Champion offers a more passive bonus in natural environments in place of an animal companion, as well as Commune with Nature 1/day. Are any of these worth losing the animal companion?

Basically what it says. You can use spell craft to research new spells. See if your DM will allow you to Research 1 spell, a 1st level cleric spell, with a very long casting time (Say, 10 minutes or something to balance it.), that lasts 24 hours (Like Endure Elements, for example.) that has a very narrow, specific benefit. In this case, letting Dessert Wind, for all intentions and purposes, be a school it's worth while to learn maneuvers from. Cause Then it's freaking cool. Your preferred fighting tactic remains the same, but you have more of a plan B if a badguy who's smart does his homework and has a shut down for it. (Like any of the numerous monsters with access to divination or high Int and Wis mods should be doing after a certain point.)

So you know, for a 24 hour duration spell, casting time isn't a balancing factor unless it takes hours, if then.

It's also not the only balancing factor in play. It's a VERY limited thing it effects. It doesn't help fireballs, or the Binders Vestige/Incarnates Soulmeld, It doesn't help the vanilla fighters +1 Flaming Great-sword. It just get's this one thing out of "Useless by level 8 at the latest." too "Starts strong, looses some steam but remains useful for the rest of your career."

And also let's remember, this is gonna be for a character who can cast it 2 times a day if he's lucky and it's CL 1. If it's too much of a problem, the DM can just let enemy's throw Dispel magics at him.

Okay, I get it. Basically a level 1 buff, to be persisted (which would require both DMM and Persist, that's a double feat-tax on a non-caster) that allows any fire effects from Desert Wind to overcome any fire resistance or immunity. I get it. I think it would fly like a laden brick, but I get it.

Hehe, Sonic the fire Kitty? Can I steal that, cause that's awesome?!

Consider it stolen.

Series can be found here, so far in it's entirety, along with other minor side items and all 4 major protagonists trailers, and the entire sound track, for free, curtsey of it's creators and as such, perfectly legally for free.

http://roosterteeth.com/archive/?sid=rwby&v=more

And the playgrounds current discussion thread can be found here for the series.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=304358

Grazie.

So, home listeners - thoughts on these Ranger ACFs?