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Leon
2007-01-09, 10:29 PM
Im looking for any ways to Add Wisdom Bonus to AC apart from the Monk or Swordsage Classes (as they dont fit with the Idea that im working on)

Bears With Lasers
2007-01-09, 10:30 PM
Ninja.

The Monk's Belt item.

TSGames
2007-01-09, 10:50 PM
I recall at least one or two PrCs in the book of the nine swords that allow Wis to AC, ah yes, there's also the swordsage, but nevermind that.

Aximili
2007-01-09, 10:52 PM
I had put together every way I could find of adding any ability modifier to both damage and AC (I had everyone except for STR to AC). It was in a thread in another forum, and unfortunately it's under construction right now.

When it comes back, I'll check it out and see if I can add anything to your question.

Avicenex
2007-01-09, 10:57 PM
Monk's Belt is a good bet, because it's an item, as opposed to a feat or class. Here's a good reference though from the wizards boards:
http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=320889
It shows how to get X stat to apply to Y bonus--very useful.

Ramza00
2007-01-10, 02:11 AM
Grumbles (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=320889) about how he should read what other people post. Sorry Avicenex, you posted exactly what I was going to post

Yuki Akuma
2007-01-10, 03:15 AM
The Saint template in the Book of Exalted Deeds.

Leon
2007-01-10, 04:52 AM
The way im reading Monks Belt as is it seems that your only getting the AC as if you were a 5th lvl monk which is +1

Otherwise thanks for the help

Jack Mann
2007-01-10, 05:07 AM
And a fifth level monk gets his wisdom bonus to AC, as well as the +1, so long as he isn't wearing any armor.

Leon
2007-01-10, 05:15 AM
Gotcha, it makes sense now.

Looks like Monks belt it is - give minor Unarmed ability too, a bonus for if the PC is somehow without her sword

Thomas
2007-01-10, 05:24 AM
Whoah, a 13,000 gp item that gives a basically unlimited AC bonus? (So long as you don't wear armor, anyway.) What wizard or sorcerer wouldn't get it?

Too cheap, any?

I'd definitely not include the Wisdom bonus to AC in that item's benefits. It's not expensive enough.

Toliudar
2007-01-10, 05:36 AM
How is a Monk's belt a "basically unlimited" bonus? It's limited by wisdom, which is often a dump stat for wizards and sorcerers. If an arcanist simply wanted that kind of boost to AC, they could simply boost their dex instead, which has more spinoff benefits for them (ray attack accuracy, strengthening a weak save). And in any situation where you're denied your dex bonus, odds are good that the monk bonus will be denied as well.

Now, where the item really comes into its own is with cloistered clerics and druids...

Bears With Lasers
2007-01-10, 05:43 AM
Whoah, a 13,000 gp item that gives a basically unlimited AC bonus? (So long as you don't wear armor, anyway.) What wizard or sorcerer wouldn't get it?

Too cheap, any?

I'd definitely not include the Wisdom bonus to AC in that item's benefits. It's not expensive enough.

None of my wizards or sorcerers get it, because their Wisdom is 10.

Really, you have to have a pretty huge Wisdom score before the Belt is better than armor plus (an Animated) shield. The kinds of characters who have that Wisdom score don't generally have armor/shield replacers like Greater Mage Armor and Shield.

The only character I've had who really got major benefits out of the belt was my WIS synergy Chameleon (WIS to AB, AC, damage, and divine casting) who *could* cast Mage Armor/Shield.

Edit: however, at high levels, no armor means no armor special abilities, unless your DM lets you put'em on Bracers of Armor as per the 3.0 Arms & Equipment Guide. Which means no Heavy Fortification, no Soulfire, no Proof against Transmutation...

Jack Mann
2007-01-10, 05:47 AM
Actually, Tolly, the monk bonus is only denied if you're helpless. If you're just surprised, you keep the wisdom bonus and the +1. But you're right, a wizard will usually boost dex instead of wisdom.

Bears With Lasers
2007-01-10, 05:50 AM
I guess a wizard who wants to take Arcane Disciple could boost Wisdom and dump Dex, then take Zen Archery. But that's for Arcane Disciples, and they need a feat and an item to do it, without getting that much benefit.

Thomas
2007-01-10, 05:56 AM
It's advantageously priced at Wis 14. At Wis 12, a +6 Wis item and a monk's belt are cheaper than an amulet of natural armor +5. And that's not taking into account the unarmed damage bonus.

Bears With Lasers
2007-01-10, 05:58 AM
It's advantageously priced at Wis 14. At Wis 12, a +6 Wis item and a monk's belt are cheaper than an amulet of natural armor +5. And that's not taking into account the unarmed damage bonus.

And a Mithril Twilight Chain Shirt and Mithril Buckler could do you much better yet.

JaronK
2007-01-10, 06:01 AM
Honestly, Wis to AC in no armour isn't that great. Think about this: A Wizard or other arcanist who has no armour proficiency could have the following with no spell failure and no penalties (because the penalty for nonproficiency is just that you take the check penalty to attacks, but this will have no such penalty):

Mithral Dastanas +5 of Heavy Fortification
Twilight Mithral Chain Shirt +1 with 8 points of other bonuses
Mithral Buckler +5 with 5 points of other bonuses

This grants:
16 AC (Dastana magic bonus doesn't stack with armour magic bonus)
0 ASF
0 ACP
75% Crit Immunity

And then all the bonuses you can get with 5 points of shield abilities and 8 points of armour abilities.

Not freaking bad.

Now compare that to Wis to AC... it's gonna take a lot of wisdom to get up to that point.

JaronK

Bears With Lasers
2007-01-10, 06:05 AM
Dastanas don't freaking count, man.

However, for 13,000 gp + 36,000 gp (periapt of wisdom +6), the wizard could have:

+3 Mithral Twilight Chain Shirt: +7 AC, 17,000 gp
+3 Mithral Buckler: +4 AC, 10000 gp
Amulet of Natural Armor +3 (assuming you don't use Dragonskin or something): 18,000 gp
For +14 total AC at 45k, less than the periapt and belt.

For just 13k: +1 Mithral Twilight Chain Shirt: 5,000 gp
+2 Mithral Buckler: 5,000 gp
+1 Amulet of Natural Armor: 2,000 gp
And 1k left over, with +9 AC total. You'd need 28 wisdom to come out even.

Zherog
2007-01-10, 07:54 AM
Just because we all like the FAQ so gosh darn much:



Does a monk’s belt (Dungeon Master’s Guide, 248) grant a non-monk wearer his Wisdom bonus to AC?

Yes. Note, however, that the wearer gains the AC bonus only when unarmored and unencumbered, since the belt clearly states that “this AC bonus functions just like the monk’s AC bonus.”

Leon
2007-01-10, 08:22 AM
Ty Zherog - i really should read these FAQ's someday

For those that Like the numbers - the Stats

Str 16
Dex 20
Con 14
Int 14
Wis 18
Cha 12

Currently its shaped on a base of Swashbuckler, Psi Warrior, Warblade and Kensai

Unarmoured Dex based Sword Fighter inspired by a picture i have. currently its ever changing while i tweak it to suit

Thiel
2007-01-10, 09:16 AM
What level is the character?

Leon
2007-01-10, 09:53 AM
Sixteen, my standard build level

Person_Man
2007-01-10, 10:21 AM
Ty Zherog - i really should read these FAQ's someday

For those that Like the numbers - the Stats

Str 16
Dex 20
Con 14
Int 14
Wis 18
Cha 12

Currently its shaped on a base of Swashbuckler, Psi Warrior, Warblade and Kensai

Unarmoured Dex based Sword Fighter inspired by a picture i have. currently its ever changing while i tweak it to suit

Why Swash/Warblade when your Int is only 14? Wouldn't Str 18 Dex 14 Con 16 Int 20 Wis 14 Cha 12 make more sense?

Leon
2007-01-10, 11:26 AM
Kensai and Swash have gone - its 8 Psiwar / 8 Warblade

That nets me a nice choice of Powers and a small selction of Manuveres
Otherwise im now stuck on feats - one line of thought is the Dodge-Mobilty-Spring attack line (i can ramp it upto about 50ft movement a rnd, and that meshes well with a manuvere or 2)

The Cornerstone feats are EWP: Courtblade and Weapon Finess

one area of conflict i have found is the Monks belt conflicting with another item - but the Combat abilities shall take precedance of storage space

Person_Man
2007-01-10, 02:19 PM
Kensai and Swash have gone - its 8 Psiwar / 8 Warblade

That nets me a nice choice of Powers and a small selction of Manuveres
Otherwise im now stuck on feats - one line of thought is the Dodge-Mobilty-Spring attack line (i can ramp it upto about 50ft movement a rnd, and that meshes well with a manuvere or 2)

The Cornerstone feats are EWP: Courtblade and Weapon Finess

one area of conflict i have found is the Monks belt conflicting with another item - but the Combat abilities shall take precedance of storage space

Wait. Your Str is 16 and your Dex is 20. Weapon Finesse only nets you a +2 to hit. So there's really no compelling reason to take that and Courtblade when there are so many other better feats to choose from.

What exactly are you trying to build here? What is it that you want to be able to do? Or are you not concerned with optimization, and just taking the feats because it fits your character concept?

Leon
2007-01-10, 09:06 PM
Or are you not concerned with optimization, and just taking the feats because it fits your character concept?

Correct, im not overy concered with the Optimization but im still interested in opinions on things and advice

In regard to what i want the concept to do - be a secondary combatant type, but more so fit with the picture i have (even if it is Not the most damaging or effective ideal)

As to the sword choice: i like the courtblade and the only other sword that would fit the concept would be the Bastard sword (once again its a style thing not mechcanics)

Fax Celestis
2007-01-10, 09:12 PM
Why not go Swordsage instead of Warblade and get Wis-to-AC in light armor and Wis synergy as well? You'll get about twice as much in the way of maneuvers as well. You'll lose access to Iron Heart, sure, but you'll also get access to Desert Wind, Setting Sun, and Shadow Hand.

You trade down a little in BAB, of course, but not much (+12 instead of +16).

Leon
2007-01-10, 09:25 PM
you do have a good point - i had originally considered at least 2 lvls of Swordsage but Iron heart did draw me away from it

I'l retro fit it with Swordsage and see, Both Sword sage and Warblade fit the concept but i was unsure of the Sword sage's Manuveres.

However SS would allow me to do away with monks belt and go back to using Belt of many pockets

Not too worried about BAB.

danielf
2007-01-10, 09:28 PM
windows bonus for AC :)

Fax Celestis
2007-01-10, 09:28 PM
Also, Swordsage is the only class that can qualify for Mo9 by itself. Other classes need to multclass or take Martial Study.

Bears With Lasers
2007-01-10, 09:28 PM
Swordsage lets you take Shadow Blade, which gets you dex to damage. You can then dump STR and keep Weapon Finesse.

Person_Man
2007-01-10, 10:23 PM
OK, knowing this helps.

Bears and Fax both gave good advice.

You say that you want to be a secondary combatant. Like a Monk - good at killing certain types of enemies and with a boatload of special abilities? Or like a combat Rogue, with your focus on Skills (or something else) but helpful in combat nonetheless?

Other then that, your picture, and the desire to wield a big-ish cool sword, do you have any other roleplaying considerations? What's your character's motivation, alignment, personal quirks, etc?

Aximili
2007-01-10, 11:24 PM
Reading about the monk's belt made me wonder: It gives you the unarmed damage of a level 5 monk, but doesn't say anything about giving you the monks unarmed prowes/improved unarmed strike/etc... Does this mean that it improves your unarmed damage without giving you "Improved Unarmed Strike"?

Bears With Lasers
2007-01-10, 11:35 PM
Yes, yes it does.

Thrawn183
2007-01-10, 11:42 PM
My 13th level cleric encountered enemies that included a monk wearing a monk's belt.

He had +2 full plate and +1 animated shield. I had him wear the monk's belt, take a set of bracers of armor, get gloves of dex because suddenly he didn't have a max dex bonus and start casting greater luminous armor every day (I know it overlaps with the bracers of armor but it really is that good). The result is no armor check penalty, no worry about encumbrance, and a far, far better AC against touch attacks, especially melee ones.

Bears With Lasers
2007-01-10, 11:43 PM
(Greater) Luminous Armor: cheesy good.

Aximili
2007-01-10, 11:55 PM
He had +2 full plate and +1 animated shield. I had him wear the monk's belt, take a set of bracers of armor, get gloves of dex because suddenly he didn't have a max dex bonus and start casting greater luminous armor every day (I know it overlaps with the bracers of armor but it really is that good). The result is no armor check penalty, no worry about encumbrance, and a far, far better AC against touch attacks, especially melee ones.
I think I missed something here. Full plate + Monk's belt?

Leon
2007-01-10, 11:58 PM
Reading about the monk's belt made me wonder: It gives you the unarmed damage of a level 5 monk, but doesn't say anything about giving you the monks unarmed prowes/improved unarmed strike/etc... Does this mean that it improves your unarmed damage without giving you "Improved Unarmed Strike"?

Its "Monk in a Can"


I think I missed something here. Full plate + Monk's belt?

He stopped wearing the fullplate in favour of the Belt



OK, knowing this helps.

Bears and Fax both gave good advice.

You say that you want to be a secondary combatant. Like a Monk - good at killing certain types of enemies and with a boatload of special abilities? Or like a combat Rogue, with your focus on Skills (or something else) but helpful in combat nonetheless?

Other then that, your picture, and the desire to wield a big-ish cool sword, do you have any other roleplaying considerations? What's your character's motivation, alignment, personal quirks, etc?

To be Difficult a Mix of Monk and Combat Rogue

Alginment is not 100% yet but is looking around LG to CG, motovation and quirks are not something ive thought about very much yet

Leon
2007-01-11, 01:29 AM
Thanks for all the Input, i'll muse over all of it while im away and see how it pans out in a week

Person_Man
2007-01-11, 02:47 PM
(Greater) Luminous Armor: cheesy good.

That's Book of Exhalted Deeds, right? I can't remember why I don't use it. Is it just too broken to use, or does it have an exhalted requirement?



To be Difficult a Mix of Monk and Combat Rogue

Alginment is not 100% yet but is looking around LG to CG, motovation and quirks are not something ive thought about very much yet

Strait Swordsage sounds like the way to go then. Skills + Maneuvers. Maybe head into a Monk PrC at mid levels.

Bears With Lasers
2007-01-11, 02:50 PM
That's Book of Exhalted Deeds, right? I can't remember why I don't use it. Is it just too broken to use, or does it have an exhalted requirement?

It's a sanctified spell; it has a "sacrifice component" of 1d2 STR damage when the spell ends. It's like mage armor, but grants +5 armor (Luminous Armor) or +8 (greater same), and applies a -4 penalty for anyone to hit you in melee. That -4 makes it much better than the Mage Armor/Greater Mage Armor alternatives, and the STR damage is easily healed with a single Lesser Restoration (get a wand of it as a first level spell, paladin-cast, for 750 gp).

Person_Man
2007-01-11, 04:33 PM
It's a sanctified spell; it has a "sacrifice component" of 1d2 STR damage when the spell ends. It's like mage armor, but grants +5 armor (Luminous Armor) or +8 (greater same), and applies a -4 penalty for anyone to hit you in melee. That -4 makes it much better than the Mage Armor/Greater Mage Armor alternatives, and the STR damage is easily healed with a single Lesser Restoration (get a wand of it as a first level spell, paladin-cast, for 750 gp).

So it essentially gives you a +9 or +12 to AC? Ah, now I remember why I don't use it. The DM would throw something at me. Probably a lamp.

Thanks.