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Shhalahr Windrider
2007-01-09, 10:35 PM
I've been thinking about how the various "___ person" spells would fit into a campaign world. It doesn't make much sense that spellcasters in societies of monstrous humanoids or other creature types would sit back and wait until the "___ monster" variants became available, especially when it's a matter of using an "enlarge monstrous humanoid" or something similar to buff an ally. (Yeah, I know. There's not even an "enlarge monster". It's just a for-instance.) It only makes sense that spellcasters from various areas of the world would have developed their own versions of these humanoid-only spells.

Does this seem reasonable to anyone else?

Would making charm outsider or hold aberration available cause problems?

Should some of these variants recieve additional adjustment in spell level? Seems a pretty potent investment for most true dragons to have a 1st-level enlarge dragon. Conversely, would a 2nd-level hold dragon make a dragon-hunting expedition too easy?

Should some of these variants wind up on totally different spell lists?

Aside from the mechanical effects mentioned above, how do you think the availability of such spells would reflect upon any given campaign world?

How common do you think such spells would be in societies consisting of other creature types?

Is there anything else about this idea that strikes you as worth mentioning? (Yeah, although I ask some specific questions, feel free to bring anything else up.)

Just to make sure no one get left in the dust, the spoiler box includes a list of all available creature types (that I know of). Consult it if you feel it necessary:
Aberration
Animal
Construct
Deathless (introduced in Book of Exalted Deeds and Eberron Campaign Setting)
Dragon
Elemental
Fey
Giant
Humanoid (the source of our base spells! :smallcool:)
Magical Beast
Monstrous Humanoid
Ooze
Outsider
Plant
Undead
Vermin

Lucid_Archon
2007-01-09, 10:42 PM
This is just a brillant idea. Since the range of the spell wouldn't change much by changing creature type, the spell shouldn't take up a higher slot. It doesn't make certain fights much easier, because a caster would only invest in that spell if they knew what they were fighting, which already gives them the advantage.

Wehrkind
2007-01-09, 10:50 PM
Perhaps you could allow the different types of creatures to substitute their type for the spell listed.

For instance, Monster Steve has access to Hold Person as a level 2 spell, but does not live around humanoids. So instead, put Hold Monster as his 2nd level spell, and humanoids as his 4th, figuring he is more familier with his own type, and so has an easier time manipulating the effect.

Now, the down side is that some of the types are REALLY broad. Monster, for example. Still, it might make sense that certain spells have their target types adjusted for non-standard races.

Emperor Tippy
2007-01-09, 11:16 PM
@^
Yep. That what I do in almost all cases. Person is replaced with your type.

Elans and a couple other things are exceptions.

BCOVertigo
2007-01-10, 12:32 AM
Perhaps you could allow the different types of creatures to substitute their type for the spell listed.

For instance, Monster Steve has access to Hold Person as a level 2 spell, but does not live around humanoids. So instead, put Hold Monster as his 2nd level spell, and humanoids as his 4th, figuring he is more familier with his own type, and so has an easier time manipulating the effect.

Now, the down side is that some of the types are REALLY broad. Monster, for example. Still, it might make sense that certain spells have their target types adjusted for non-standard races.

Assuming I understand you you're saying he should get Hold Monster at an earlier level because he isn't a standard humanoid? Bad idea. It's not just more 'broad' it's flat out better. It can hit humanoids and other things, making the 4th level Hold Person a waste of time.

Maybe there could be a metamagic feat that lets you substitute your own type instead of the default for +1 level. That or maybe a feat that swaps your type for the default in all spells, but that could run into problems if you wanted to Enlarge Person as an elan wizard. Just seems like giving out higher level spells for free for any reason isn't a good idea.

Sam K
2007-01-10, 01:43 AM
I'd say that in many cases, some creatures just require more powerful magic to affect. Dragons, elementals and outsiders are all more magical than humanoids, and thus they require more powerful spells to affect them. A 2nd level spell just isn't enough to affect a dragon, no matter who casts it. A 2nd level spell cast by a dragon is still just a 2nd level spell.

The best option may be to allow lesser versions of some spells. For example, a 2nd level 'hold dragon' would be over powered, but dragons may have a 'hold lesser dragonkin' as a 2nd level spell, affecting only dragonkin up to 6 hitdice (for example).
Dragons are a bad example though; I belive a prerequisit for a spell like this to be commonly availible is that the creature lives in a society of it's own kind. Dragons are usually solitary, so they probably shouldn't have a 'hold dragon' spell of any kind (on a different note, dragons may go to great lengths to destroy anyone they find posessing such a spell). Elementals make sense, since the elemental planes are populated by lots of different creatures of the elemental subtype. Outsiders are another good example of creatures that have their own societies- or in this case, entire planes.

Finally, as it has been stated above, some creature types are VERY broad. Abberations, for example, include creatures that have nothing in common except that they're 'wierd'. There is really nothing that ties mind flayers and beholders together. In these cases, any enchantment spell designed to affect them would be restricted to a single race ('charm beholder', not 'charm abberation'). In fact, this may be the case with some other creature types too ('hold lesser fire elemental' would be different than 'hold lesser water elemental').

Bit of a rant, but hopefully it'll atleast give you some ideas.

Green Bean
2007-01-10, 02:15 AM
Assuming I understand you you're saying he should get Hold Monster at an earlier level because he isn't a standard humanoid? Bad idea. It's not just more 'broad' it's flat out better. It can hit humanoids and other things, making the 4th level Hold Person a waste of time.

I think he meant that you can't use Hold <Blank> spells on something outside the spell's type. So if you tried to use Hold Monster on a humanoid, then they'd just ignore it.

Thomas
2007-01-10, 02:21 AM
I'd say that in many cases, some creatures just require more powerful magic to affect. Dragons, elementals and outsiders are all more magical than humanoids, and thus they require more powerful spells to affect them. A 2nd level spell just isn't enough to affect a dragon, no matter who casts it. A 2nd level spell cast by a dragon is still just a 2nd level spell.

Yes, indeed, for most dragons will save easily against 2nd-level spells. Meanwhile, you'll probably find a bunch of 2nd- or 3rd-level spells in, say, the Spell Compendium that target dragons specifically.

Meanwhile, a 2-HD drake with the Dragon type should be quite easily affected by a 2nd-level spell.

Dragon isn't just true dragons, it's a whole type of creatures, ranging from weak to mighty.


As far as game balance goes, I see no issue. It's increased specialization and variety, that's all. Your sorcerer can pick charm aberration, charm person, or charm monstrous humanoid, and will be limited accordingly in the usage. Charm monster will be a much better spell, once the sorcerer can get it.

Matthew
2007-01-10, 10:57 AM
Sees reasonable to me, though I am not sure I want Dragons to have Enlarge Dragon as a Spell, but then again, why not? Enlarge and Reduce are annoying Spells anyway. Maybe any Enlarge should reverse a Reduce and vice versa, though.

Ikkitosen
2007-01-10, 12:15 PM
You could weight the level of the "Hold X" spell or whatever using the quality of X's base hit dice. Use humanoids as a base - Dragons and Outsiders have better dice (more HP/BAB/Saves/etc.). There wouldn't be a simple way to do this but it might be a good place to look for some kind of scaling criterion.

Scorpina
2007-01-10, 12:18 PM
I agree with, say, a Giant Spellcaster getting Charm Giant rather than Charm Person. Of course, said Giant might call it 'Charm Person' none the less...

The only real exception comes in the spell like abilities of some creatures, like a lot of fey and the succubus, which are aimed at humanoids for a reason.

MrNexx
2007-01-10, 12:22 PM
I don't know that making all of the lower level versions effective against Own Type is horridly unbalancing (though it makes playing a planetouched an interesting thing)... after all, most of the ones where it becomes horribly abusive have strong defenses against weak spells, already.

Matthew
2007-01-10, 12:39 PM
Yeah, but it's the opposite situation that might be unbalancing, where low level Spells create good effects (such as Enlarge Dragon).

I think Ikkitosen presents a good idea.

Fax Celestis
2007-01-10, 12:48 PM
And explain to me why these brilliant and powerful and conniving dragons haven't made and/or use enlarge dragon already?

Matthew
2007-01-10, 12:52 PM
No reason they wouldn't, the question is whether you want to allow it into your game.

Fax Celestis
2007-01-10, 12:53 PM
It makes things more interesting, certainly. I already do.

Maryring
2007-01-10, 01:13 PM
What I do is that I simply make (person) spells only be available as your own type. So an elf would be able to charm humanoids, but wouldn't be able to charm abberations or deathless before she got charm monster. I don't see it as horribly unbalancing either.

MrNexx
2007-01-10, 01:29 PM
Yeah, but it's the opposite situation that might be unbalancing, where low level Spells create good effects (such as Enlarge Dragon).

I think Ikkitosen presents a good idea.

How is it unbalancing that a Dragon can enlarge a dragon with a low-level spell?

IT'S ALREADY A DRAGON!

Fax Celestis
2007-01-10, 01:35 PM
But now it's a bigger dragon.

Scorpina
2007-01-10, 01:38 PM
But it's also now susceptiable to Charm Dragon and Hold Dragon, which presumably any self-respecting Dragon-slaying caster will get his grubby mits on ASAP?

Fax Celestis
2007-01-10, 01:38 PM
This is what rings of Spell Immunity are for.

MrNexx
2007-01-10, 01:44 PM
Actually, I would change the language a bit... it's not that you have a spell that is "Charm Dragon" that is a 1st level spell for dragons. You have a spell that is Charm Own Type that is a 1st level spell for _everyone_. Then you have Charm Any Type which is a 4th level spell. Charms for specific types would be somewhere in between... Charm Humanoid and Charm Animal would probably be level 2 (if not level 1), while Charm Dragon would be level 3.

Fax Celestis
2007-01-10, 01:58 PM
That seems...apt. But what about Charm Construct or Aberration? There are two specific groups of types in D&D: the strong types (Outsider, Dragon, Construct, Aberration) and the weak types (Undead, Magical Beast, Animal). There are those that fall outside the two groups (most Plants, some Undead, some Constructs), but that's pretty much how it goes.

That being the case, how does one handle the disparity? Have the low types be 2nd level, the high types be 3rd, and the all types be 4th?

MrNexx
2007-01-10, 02:01 PM
Well... by "Charm Any Type" I didn't mean "Any Type", but rather any type that was charmable by a charm monster.

Person_Man
2007-01-10, 02:02 PM
A very reasonable proposition. But I also think that there's a ton of potential for abuse and problems.

The solution, in my opinion, is for the DM to ration out these non-canon spells as he sees fit in the treasure of defeated enemies, but otherwise unavailable for purchase. This allows the DM to use them for plot reasons, without unbalancing the game, since by definition he knows exactly what enemies the PC's are going to encounter in the future.

Pepper
2007-01-10, 02:22 PM
Well what about creatures that dont have access to other properties of spells besides just no humans to practice holding with hold person. What about deep water creatures that have never seen fire? would they be able cast fire based spells? or would you create a whole new subsection of spells?

I would just create a racial ability to take care of it. Like giving water creatures acess to Drown to replace fire based spells which are useless, and giving monsters some sort of racial ability to help against creatures of the same race.

Just a thought that jumped into my head.

Scorpina
2007-01-10, 02:26 PM
Don't fire-based spells create steam underwater?

Fax Celestis
2007-01-10, 02:41 PM
Tell me where it says that.

Scorpina
2007-01-10, 02:44 PM
I have no idea, but I think I read it somewhere. Stormwrack, perhaps...

Fax Celestis
2007-01-10, 02:46 PM
Nope. Trust me. I've searched. EVERYWHERE. If you can find it, I'll...well, I'll be very overjoyed, and perhaps even owe you a favor.

Shhalahr Windrider
2007-01-10, 02:53 PM
That being the case, how does one handle the disparity? Have the low types be 2nd level, the high types be 3rd, and the all types be 4th?
Sounds a lot like psionic charm (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/psionicPowersAtoC.html#charm-psionic). Check out the augmentation line.

Fax Celestis
2007-01-10, 03:00 PM
Ooh. Perfect.

Yuki Akuma
2007-01-10, 03:18 PM
Regarding fire spells and water: It says nowhere that [Fire] spells don't work underwater. Any spell that doesn't work underwater specifically says so, and it mentions nothing about all [Fire] spells being nonfuncional underwater. So, [Fire] spells must work underwater. The visual effect is up to you.

Anyway, I read in a 2e Planescape book that fire spells create steam on the Elemental Plane of Water...

Wolf53226
2007-01-10, 04:06 PM
Actually Yuki, Page 21 of Stormwrack in the section "Combat in the Water" under the fire subheading does address this issue.

Yuki Akuma
2007-01-10, 04:46 PM
Actually Yuki, Page 21 of Stormwrack in the section "Combat in the Water" under the fire subheading does address this issue.

Well, I don't have Stormwrack...

stainboy
2007-01-10, 04:57 PM
Well, I can't see it for outsiders, aberrations, or elementals. I'm willing to accept that it's just harder to make an enchantment stick on those creatures than it is on a human.

Charm Monstrous Humanoid and Charm Giant seem like reasonable variants, although I'd say that typically only creatures of those races would have them. Whatever giant invented the Charm Giant spell would have a much easier time finding other giants to test it on and perfect it than a human would.

Wolf53226
2007-01-10, 05:04 PM
Actually, reading the thread again I guess that was more pointed to Fax than you Yuki, so sorry Yuki, but suffice it to say, spells with the fire descriptor require a spellcraft check to work under water, and if you make the spellcraft, it is a bubble of steam instead of fire, otherwise all is normal. Oh and the surface blocks LoE on fire spells.

Matthew
2007-01-10, 05:05 PM
How is it unbalancing that a Dragon can enlarge a dragon with a low-level spell?

IT'S ALREADY A DRAGON!

But now it's a bigger dragon.

Pretty much. All the Dragons will be enlarged. Saying that, I have no real idea how it would affect game balance at that point (as, ironically, I have yet to face a Dragon as a Player or run a Dragon as a Dungeon Master under the Dungeons & Dragons 3.x Ruleset - seen plenty of Dungeons, though...), which is why I included the caveat 'might'.

Green Bean
2007-01-10, 05:06 PM
The dragon will get a size bonus, but may have a difficult time moving if it tries it in its lair.

Shhalahr Windrider
2007-01-10, 05:45 PM
Okay, I suddenly realize the problem with enlarge dragon, at least in relation to True Dragons. These things would gain extra attacks (a Small to Medium, for example, adds two new attacks, which is better than haste) and larger breath weapon areas.

Of course, the problem could be fixed by adding a line that says something like "The creature gains no benefits for increased size other than greater reach, greater weapon and natural weapon damage, the +2 Strength bonus, and size bonuses to grapple, trip, overrun, and disarm checks." (Did I leave any other standare benefit out?)

Fax Celestis
2007-01-10, 05:51 PM
Shhalahr, you forget that those bonuses are not due to size increase but instead due to aging. The size increase is a side effect of aging and is what the dragons are measured by simply because it's easier to say "a huge red dragon" than "a red dragon approximately 734 years old".

But adding that specification in would clear it up, yes.

Shhalahr Windrider
2007-01-10, 05:59 PM
The attacks are listed in the table according to size, not age.

It just so happens that there really isn't any official (that I know of) way to increase a dragon's size category without aging it.

Really, most of the gain in natural attacks seems to be justified in the fact that younger and smaller dragons just don't have enough bulk and strength in their wings or tail or whatever natural weapon they have yet to develop. Same goes for the dragon's body to develop the energy in its breath weapon.

Likewise, I would expect a reduced dragon to lose one or more of its attack forms and have a reduced breath weapon size for the same reasons.

Scorpina
2007-01-10, 08:51 PM
Charm Monstrous Humanoid and Charm Giant seem like reasonable variants, although I'd say that typically only creatures of those races would have them. Whatever giant invented the Charm Giant spell would have a much easier time finding other giants to test it on and perfect it than a human would.

I have to figure Charm Giant and Hold Giant would be pretty common among Dwarven and Gnomish spellcasters, given their racial hatred for them...

Thomas
2007-01-11, 03:02 AM
Underwater Combat

Land-based creatures can have considerable difficulty when fighting in water. Water affects a creature’s Armor Class, attack rolls, damage, and movement. In some cases a creature’s opponents may get a bonus on attacks. The effects are summarized in the accompanying table. They apply whenever a character is swimming, walking in chestdeep water, or walking along the bottom.
Ranged Attacks Underwater: Thrown weapons are ineffective underwater, even when launched from land. Attacks with other ranged weapons take a –2 penalty on attack rolls for every 5 feet of water they pass through, in addition to the normal penalties for range.
Attacks from Land: Characters swimming, floating, or treading water on the surface, or wading in water at least chest deep, have improved cover (+8 bonus to AC, +4 bonus on Reflex saves) from opponents on land. Landbound opponents who have freedom of movement effects ignore this cover when making melee attacks against targets in the water. A completely submerged creature has total cover against opponents on land unless those opponents have freedom of movement effects. Magical effects are unaffected except for those that require attack rolls (which are treated like any other effects) and fire effects.
Fire: Nonmagical fire (including alchemist’s fire) does not burn underwater. Spells or spell-like effects with the fire descriptor are ineffective underwater unless the caster makes a Spellcraft (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/skillsAll.html#spellcraft) check (DC 20 + spell level). If the check succeeds, the spell creates a bubble of steam instead of its usual fiery effect, but otherwise the spell works as described. A supernatural fire effect is ineffective underwater unless its description states otherwise.
The surface of a body of water blocks line of effect for any fire spell. If the caster has made a Spellcraft check to make the fire spell usable underwater, the surface still blocks the spell’s line of effect.

Bow chicka bow wow.

Altair_the_Vexed
2007-01-11, 08:58 AM
Perhaps you could allow the different types of creatures to substitute their type for the spell listed.

For instance, Monster Steve has access to Hold Person as a level 2 spell, but does not live around humanoids. So instead, put Hold Monster as his 2nd level spell, and humanoids as his 4th, figuring he is more familier with his own type, and so has an easier time manipulating the effect.

Now, the down side is that some of the types are REALLY broad. Monster, for example. Still, it might make sense that certain spells have their target types adjusted for non-standard races.

A variant on this that I've been thinking about: Hold [Own Type] - a spell to substitute in for Hold Person that affects the caster's own type only. Hold [Other Types] is the equivalent of Hold Monster.

Does that make sense?

MrNexx
2007-01-11, 09:16 AM
I've thought so for a page, at least. ;)

mikeejimbo
2007-01-11, 09:26 AM
Pretty much. All the Dragons will be enlarged. Saying that, I have no real idea how it would affect game balance at that point (as, ironically, I have yet to face a Dragon as a Player or run a Dragon as a Dungeon Master under the Dungeons & Dragons 3.x Ruleset - seen plenty of Dungeons, though...), which is why I included the caveat 'might'.

Wait, another theory: Dragons are already enlarged.

Fax Celestis
2007-01-11, 12:17 PM
Bow chicka bow wow.

You have my eternal gratitude. Where is that from?

Thomas
2007-01-11, 12:40 PM
You have my eternal gratitude. Where is that from?

The SRD, under environment rules. It should be in the DMG too.

Matthew
2007-01-11, 02:00 PM
Wait, another theory: Dragons are already enlarged.

Maybe, it's a matter of calculating CR, I would have thought. A successful Dispel Magic should shrink that Dragon down, though.

Gamebird
2007-01-11, 03:13 PM
I like it. I'll use it.

In my game, I've said very clearly that the spells in the PHB are the spells commonly known in the PC's area and society, just as the weapons and feats listed there are common for the PC's area. If they go to other areas, they'll find other spells, weapons and feats. Just because a feat or spell or weapon exists somewhere in the game world doesn't mean the PCs can have it or start with it. Even spontaneous or divine casters - the spontaneous ones only happen to manifest the PHB spell choices and the divine ones are only trainedin prayers that get them the PHB spells. Everyone can learn other spells, if I, as the DM, happen to include one in treasure or have an NPC know them and offer to share it. I also have some mechanics for K: Arcana or Religion checks to know if uncommon, rare, very rare, etc. spells exist, but whether the player is able to find a teacher is entirely up to me.