Fluff/crunch partnership anyone?

[D20ragon]

So,as said in This thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=311526)
I am not to good at crunchy homebrew. I am far better at fluff. Also, I have many ideas which I would love to turn to usable classes,mechanics,etc.
So, I began this thread, to see whether any crunch minded folk would care to assist me.
Would you? If I gave out cookies?

[Amechra]

<url="example.com">Like this.</url>

Just replace the angle brackets with square brackets.

[D20ragon]

Thanks! :smallbiggrin: I changed it.

[Averis Vol]

So,as said in This thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=311526)
I am not to good at crunchy homebrew. I am far better at fluff. Also, I have many ideas which I would love to turn to usable classes,mechanics,etc.
So, I began this thread, to see whether any crunch minded folk would care to assist me.
Would you? If I gave out cookies?

Well, I'd need some more information, but I might be able to help you. If you want to post an idea, I can throw up some crunch; just need to know the general power level you're looking for.

[D20ragon]

Cool. :smallsmile: I'll pm you the first project I've been wanting to do.

[Thunderfist12]

I can help with the numbers and rule references (etc. etc.). I'm game for the crunch/fluff.

[D20ragon]

Ok everybody,the first project is...a tier one(or two) mundane(?)!

...crickets...

So, my idea is for a base class based off of the subtle knife. For any who haven't read the books,the subtle knife is sharp enough to cut into other worlds,time space,and pretty much anything else.
This class would slowly gain the ability to do these things. Sadly, I have no idea for the number/crunch part,except:the ability to attune a weapon to himself,and make it into the "subtle knife." stuff like dealing ton of damage,time travel stuff,teleport/portal stuff,and plane shift alot. Maybe gain a shadow servent as per shadow dancer,because the subtle knife makes those randomly each time you cut into another world. The way other worlds work in the golden compass/subtle knife books is that they all occupy the same space,so to get past some guards,you could cut into another world,wherein their are no guards,walk past the space they would occupy,and then cut back into the world with the guards once you were past them. You could even heal things by slicing into the positive energy plane,and chilling there for a few minutes.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

...I just want to pop in to say that you might want to aware of two things.

Firstly: designing a new Tier 1 system from scratch is one of the most staggeringly huge undertakings possible in 3.5.

Secondly: unless you can manage to make "super sharp world cutting knife" capable of solving ANY given situation, you haven't hit Tier 1 or 2.

In short, someone may be able to do mechanics...but there's a huge amount of "what this can do and WHY" that's currently missing.

[Averis Vol]

Okay, so first what I'm thinking of is something like a bladebound magus, where at a certain level your weapon transforms into a "black blade" that is basically an intelligent item from now on. I would like to apply that kind of basis to this class. I'm going to have to introduce a small bit of my own fluff but I want to say this person is going to have to learn some ancient art of interplanetary martial arts which allows him to see "weak spots" in the fabric of space and time. He's going to work off of {insert awesome name here} points that allow him to breach the fabric of space in time x times per day.

Alright, with the basic premise of my intentions out there, just go ahead and tell me if this is about what you want.

[D20ragon]

...I just want to pop in to say that you might want to aware of two things.

Firstly: designing a new Tier 1 system from scratch is one of the most staggeringly huge undertakings possible in 3.5.

Secondly: unless you can manage to make "super sharp world cutting knife" capable of solving ANY given situation, you haven't hit Tier 1 or 2.

In short, someone may be able to do mechanics...but there's a huge amount of "what this can do and WHY" that's currently missing.


I know,and I am not hung up at all on what tier it is. Shoot for the moon and you'll at least end up in a tree,they say.
I think the concept will be someone who can see the building blocks of the universe,and sever or join them.
Functions of the class
*stealth(by cutting into worlds were those snuck by are not.)
*travel(by cutting space to travel distances)
*combat(it's a weapon based class. Need you ask?)
*summoning/minionmancy.(by opening portals to other planes,and bringing creatures through them. Also,the proposed shadow ability.)
*time travel.(and all this intails)
*divination.(cutting through space to create a tiny portal to look through)
*healing(joining together particles)
*resurection(time travel,bringing the previously dead back through the time portal.)
Social seems to be a problem for this class. Oh well.

Averis Vol. that seems to be pretty much what I'm looking for. Thanks!
I look forward to seeing more.:smallbiggrin:

[Averis Vol]

alright. I'll probably be silent for a bit while I work on a chart for this thing and the point system, pair that with me being a little busy recently and I may appear to have dropped the idea. I have not.

[D20ragon]

alright. I'll probably be silent for a bit while I work on a chart for this thing and the point system, pair that with me being a little busy recently and I may appear to have dropped the idea. I have not.

No fear,I'll struggle through somehow.

[Averis Vol]

Subtle Knife (WIP)

{table=head]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Special

1st|+0|+0|+2|+2|Chosen of the blade +2

2nd|+1|+0|+3|+3| Planar insight, Cosmic strike

3rd|+2|+1|+3|+3| Words of the void

4th|+3|+1|+4|+4|

5th|+3|+1|+4|+4|

6th|+4|+2|+5|+5|

7th|+5|+2|+5|+5|

8th|+6/+1|+2|+6|+6|

9th|+6/+1|+3|+6|+6|

10th|+7/+2|+3|+7|+7|

11th|+8/+3|+3|+7|+7|

12th|+9/+4|+4|+8|+8|

13th|+9/+4|+4|+8|+8|

14th|+10/+5|+4|+9|+9|

15th|+11/+6/+1|+5|+9|+9|

16th|+12/+7/+2|+5|+10|+10|

17th|+12/+7/+2|+5|+10|+10|

18th|+13/+8/+3|+6|+11|+11|

19th|+14/+9/+4|+6|+11|+11|

20th|+15/+10/+5|+6|+12|+12|

[/table]
Skills:Appraise (Int), Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Gather Information (Cha), Hide (Dex), Jump (Str), Knowledge (planes) (Int), Knowledge (nature) (Int), Move Silently (Dex), Profession (Wis), Search (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Spot (Wis), Swim (Str), Tumble (Dex).

Armor Proficiency: A subtle Knife is proficient with light armor and shields (Besides tower shields) and with all simple and martial weapons.

Chosen of the blade (Ex): No one knows quite why this happens, but once every so often a warrior with a specific skill set will be chosen by a subtle interplanetary force. At first level, a Subtle Knifes chosen weapon (determined by him) takes on an eerie almost translucent hue, along with shedding a pale blue mist from the hilt or haft. While the weapon is wielded, a subtle knife can tap into the exponential cosmic energy granting him a +2 against saves against the supernatural, extraordinary and spell like effects of extraplanar creatures. this bonus increases by 2 every 4 levels beyond first for a total of +10 at 17th level,
Okay, so this is a lot of fluff and very little crunch. It's meant to be that way, even though this ability is going to be incredibly useful. A large majority of your utility for this class comes from dealing with extraplanars and elementals. The only problem is, the may not always care for you, so an innate resistance to their abilities will come in handy.

Planar insight (Su): As a Subtle knife grows stronger, the vestigial power within his weaponry starts to feed off his strength to further advance it's own. When he reaches 2nd level, a Subtle Knifes latent power starts to emerge, allowing him to spend a move action to adjust his vision and look into the other planes that overlaps the prime material. Once per day per 3 subtle knife levels he may use this new vision for a number of minutes equal to his {feel free to choose an appropriate ability score D20ragon}(minimum 1), while activated, a subtle blade gains a +1 per class level to hide and move silently as he slinks and strides through the overlapping planes, using their modified terrain to hide and muffle his movements. As long as this ability is active, he also gains 10 feet to his movement speed.
Okay, so now he starts to get some minor planar traits. He can use the muffled quality of the ethereal plane and the roiling blackness of the shadow plane to slink around the battlefield more effectively. with different planar traits, but the same layout as the prime material plane along with their proximity to it, these seem like the logical first steps to accessing other planes.

Cosmic strike (Su): at 2nd level a Subtle Knife's chosen weapon starts to grow dull with the ethereal mist growing deeper. The being within speaks to him and unlocks within the power to tear weapon sized holes to other planes. during a charge, a standard attack, while using a maneuver or performing a full attack action, a Subtle knife can choose, as a free action, to pierce the veil into other planes, allowing their essence to flow through the hole and into the wound. At second level choose one of the four basic elemental planes (fire, water, air or earth), your weapon deals 1 point of the chosen planes energy damage (fire for fire, electric for air, acid for earth and cold for air) per class level plus his {insert ability mod here}. A subtle knife can use this ability once per encounter per 3 levels after second for a maximum of 7 times per encounter at 20th level. This ability lasts until the start of his next turn.
Alright, so heres his base damaging ability. I'm a little on the fence about how much damage to give, but I feel 1 point per level + ability mod is going to be enough that he wont need a terrible amount strength to remain relevant in combat. later abilities will upgrade this.

[D20ragon]

I like that,and yeah,it makes sense for all the reasons you said. Keep up the good work!:smallbiggrin:

[Just to Browse]

I can write an incredibly hacky T1 subtle knife based off fullcasting if you want that. Also I hate fluff and formatting.

Subtle Knife

BAB: 3/4
Good Saves: Reflex, Fort
Skills: 2 + Int, duskblade list

Subtle Techniques: The subtle knife can use Techniques, which are reflavored spells. This functions as spellcasting for the subtle knife, but his maximum spell level is based on Dexterity and his spell saves are based on intelligence. All the subtle knife's spells have a somatic component even if the spell entry does not list one.

After a good night's rest, the subtle knife must spend an hour in practice where he may prepare up to his intelligence score or 2 + his subtle knife level (whichever is smaller) in spells for the day. He prepares these spells from the wizard spell list, but unlike a wizard has no need to prepare a certain number or prepare from a spellbook.

For the rest of the day, the subtle knife may cast spells from this set of prepared spells, until his next rest at which point the spells in his mind are wiped and he must spend another hour in practice to prepare new ones. Each time the subtle knife casts a spell, he accumulates strain as indicated on the table below (see the Strain class feature below).

Subtle Techniques can be treated as spellcasting for the purposes of qualifying for feats, prestige classes, etc. However, these spells are neither arcane nor divine.

Strain Costs


Level Strain Cost
0 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th 7th 8th 9th
1st 3 6 — — — — — — — —
2nd 3 6 — — — — — — — —
3rd 2 3 7 — — — — — — —
4th 2 3 6 — — — — — — —
5th 1 2 4 7 — — — — — —
6th 1 2 3 7 — — — — — —
7th 0 1 3 4 8 — — — — —
8th 0 1 2 4 7 — — — — —
9th 0 0 2 3 5 9 — — — —
10th 0 0 1 3 4 8 — — — —
11th 0 0 1 2 4 6 10 — — —
12th 0 0 0 2 3 6 9 — — —
13th 0 0 0 1 3 5 7 11 — —
14th 0 0 0 1 2 5 7 10 — —
15th 0 0 0 0 2 4 6 8 12 —
16th 0 0 0 0 1 4 6 8 11 —
17th 0 0 0 0 1 3 5 7 9 13
18th 0 0 0 0 0 3 5 7 9 12
19th 0 0 0 0 0 2 4 6 8 10
20th 0 0 0 0 0 2 4 6 8 10


Strain: Each time the subtle knife casts a spell, he accumulates strain based on his level and the level of the spell. This strain comes from the effect of magic on his body, and his limit is represented by a Strain Threshold of his Dexterity score plus half his caster level (rounded up).

As soon as a subtle knife's total strain exceeds his Strain Tolerance, he becomes fatigued (even if he is normally immune to this condition). If a fatigued subtle knife wishes to cast another spell, he must first make a Fortitude save with a DC equal to (20 + the spell's level + the amount of Strain he has over his Tolerance). If the save is successful, the subtle knife casts the spell as normal. If the save is failed, the spell fizzles with no effect and the subtle knife becomes exhausted (even if he is normally immune to this condition). An exhausted subtle knife may not cast any more spells. A subtle knife exhausted this way ceases to be exhausted after an hour of complete rest.

A subtle knife loses Strain equal to ½ his character level, minimum 1 (but never more than his casting stat modifier) per hour if he does not cast spells, fight, run, or otherwise exert herself (overland traveling does not count as exertion unless it is a forced march or something similarly stressful). A subtle knife who is fatigued due to excess strain ceases to be fatigued as soon as his total Strain is no longer over his Strain Tolerance. However, a subtle knife does not recover Strain while exhausted.

Even if exhausted, a subtle knife removes all strain after an 8-hour rest.

Subtle Weaponry: A subtle knife must channel his spells through a weapon--preferably a knife, but you don't have to swing that way. At level 1, a subtle knife chooses a light weapon to be their Focus Weapon. This weapon becomes the focus of their magical powers, and the reason they cast spells. In addition to somatic components for all their spells, the subtle knife must use their Focus Weapon as a focus for all spells they cast (as if it were a divine focus for a divine spell) but the material components of all spells they cast while using their Focus Weapon can be ignored as if they possessed the Eschew Materials feat.

Subtle Power (Ex): A level 4 subtle knife's Focus Weapon gains an enhancement bonus equal to 1/4 of his level, rounded up. It may be further enhanced as a normal weapon.

The subtle knife may draw his Focus Weapon as a free action, even if it is not on his person.

Subtle Magic: A level 8 subtle knife gains the Silent Spell metamagic feat. If he already has this feat, he gains a bonus metamagic feat that he fulfills the prerequisites for. He may apply the silent spell metamagic feat to all spells he casts with Subtle Techniques without changing the spell level.

Subtle Daemon (Su): A level 12 subtle knife connects to a semi-real creature from the astral plane that is part of her. As a free action, a subtle knife can assign her Daemon the task of concentrating on a spell or spell-like ability that is maintained through concentration. The subtle knife can act normally while his Daemon concentrates on the spell. A Daemon can concentrate on only one spell at a time. If necessary to maintain the spell, the Daemon makes Concentration checks for the subtle knife, using the subtle knife's normal Concentration modifier. A Daemon does not have to make Concentration checks for circumstances such as the subtle knife taking damage. The Daemon itself is not present for anyone to interrupt or otherwise interact with.

Subtle Travel (Sp): A level 16 subtle knife can use gate (the planar travel version) once per day.

Subtle Death (Ex): A level 20 subtle knife is connected with all worlds. They become immune to [Death] effects, and if they would be killed they are instead allowed to choose any specific time period, and then are subject to an imprisonment effect. After the chosen time period has elapsed, they are subject to a freedom effect at the location they were imprisoned and lose experience to sufficient to bring them down to level 19. They may not use this feature again until they reach level 20 and have spent a year and a day not imprisoned.

[D20ragon]

Sure! This isn't a closed project by any means. If I get multiple entries,I'll just use the one I like best.

[Just to Browse]

Done, stolen liberally from the spirit shaman, strain-based casting, and whatever immediately caught my eye from the wiki article.

Thoughts:
You are neither arcane nor divine, so you don't get precocious apprentice, arcane thesis, incantatrix, divine metamagic, etc. To keep the optimization ceiling relatively high and allow the subtle knife to compete with DMM Persist clerics, I opted for greater spell flexibility and added some minor buffs.
A buff-based subtle knife cannot dump int or else lose some spell access at higher levels. An attack-based subtle knife cannot dump dex or else lose their endurance in casting. I feel like I want to switch these, because builds are generally easier for buff casters, but they'll also want big constitution and maybe strength anyways.
Ranged subtle knives need to buff and drop their weapon or go into a Focus Weapon-based thrower path. Don't know how I feel about this.
The limited number of spells castable per day straddles spontaneity (which I feel the class needs) while strain tries to keep some per-encounter and per-day control. I think it reflects the fighty-type caster much better than vancian mechanics or power points, and there are no infinite access loops.
Because it's a brand new casting mechanic, there is a lot less feat support which makes the optimization cap much lower (probably). Also not sure how I feel about this.

I'm bad at flavor text and polishing things, so both of those remain rough for the class. If you want to do either then go ahead.

Got something else?

[D20ragon]

Epic Bumpage!

Just in case.

[Thunderfist12]

Alright, what are we working on? I was gone a few days.

[D20ragon]

A subtle knife class.

[D20ragon]

Is there still interest? Also,
Shameless bump!

[Thunderfist12]

I'm back. Again.

Hmm. Subtle knife... I'll get to the mechanics.

[D20ragon]

Are you guys still here? I know it's the holidays, so I'm hoping you'll be back.


Anyone else interested in helping me?