Things that drain XP?

[necron lord]

I have looked through all the books I have (not a lot) and have found nothing on mosters, spells, or anything that could brings you down in XP. Now I do know the crafting does bring you down in XP, but if anyone could find a monster (vampire?) or a spell you could cast that would bring some one down in XP, that would be awsome.

[The Vorpal Tribble]

Coincidentally *points to lastest comic* a succubus drains whole levels, i.e. XP.


Energy Drain (Su): A succubus drains energy from a mortal it lures into some act of passion, or by simply planting a kiss on the victim. If the target is not willing to be kissed, the succubus must start a grapple (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/specialAttacks.html#grapple), which provokes an attack of opportunity. The succubus’s kiss or embrace bestows one negative level (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/abilitiesAndConditions.html#energy-drain). The kiss also has the effect of a suggestion (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/spellsS.html#suggestion) spell, asking the victim to accept another kiss from the succubus. The victim must succeed on a DC 21 Will save to negate the effect of the suggestion. The DC is 21 for the Fortitude save to remove a negative level. These save DCs are Charisma-based.

[TheOOB]

The mechanic of Xp drain does not exist in D&D 3.5 as to my knowledge, however level drain and level loss does.

[Callos_DeTerran]

I think you may have hit on an awesome idea Necronlord. The ultimate tool to scare PC's! It doesn't go after levels, stats, or equipment...it hits them in their uncurable and most cherished reasource! EXP! Quick! Someone needs to make a monster that does Exp damage!

[The Vorpal Tribble]

I think you may have hit on an awesome idea Necronlord. The ultimate tool to scare PC's! It doesn't go after levels, stats, or equipment...it hits them in their uncurable and most cherished reasource! EXP! Quick! Someone needs to make a monster that does Exp damage!
I've actually been working on a psionic power that does XP damage via memory loss.

[Aximili]

I think you may have hit on an awesome idea Necronlord. The ultimate tool to scare PC's! It doesn't go after levels, stats, or equipment...it hits them in their uncurable and most cherished reasource! EXP! Quick! Someone needs to make a monster that does Exp damage!
And how is that a good thing? Weeks or Months of hard work going down the drain because of a single stupid special ability.

The only reason I can live with the level draining effects is because of the good old Greater Restoration. So if you make a monster that drains your XP, make sure there's a way of getting it back.

EDIT: What the hell, I'll just keep making sure everyone of my characters has a Soulfire armor ¬¬

[Halcyon_Dax]

So mean! :smalltongue:

[Callos_DeTerran]

And how is that a good thing?

Because most PCs are losing their fear of DMs. This is how we restore it.



Weeks or Months of hard work going down the drain because of a single stupid special ability.

The only reason I can live with the level draining effects is because of the good old Greater Restoration. So if you make a monster that drains your XP, make sure there's a way of getting it back.

EDIT: What the hell, I'll just keep making sure everyone of my characters has a Soulfire armor ¬¬

Well just because it exists doesn't mean that someone will use it on you. Besides, bad things happen, can't always stop it.

[Aximili]

Because most PCs are losing their fear of DMs. This is how we restore it.
If the DM can't inspire respect in his PC it's one of two things: he's either got a particularly rebel group, or it's his own incompetence.

In the latter, he's got no right to throw something like this at the PC. In the former, they really deserve it.

Anyway, when I see a monster (or any other thing whatsoever), I tend to think of it gamewise, not punishmentwise. After all, if the player deserves it, you can throw just about anything at him. Heck, you don't even have to put it down to paper and give it statistics.


Well just because it exists doesn't mean that someone will use it on you. Besides, bad things happen, can't always stop it.
Except that we're playing a game here, and while bad things will still happen, they should not get in the way of any player's fun (specially if the DM can avoid it).

[The Vorpal Tribble]

Honestly, I want to groan every time I hear about folks saying DM's can't do something because 'It'd be too meeeean!'

I was a player for years before I began DMing. I wouldn't have minded. I now DM and I still don't. Is it not fair if a DM brings along a creature that disentegrates or eats a player, keeping it from being ressurected?

Sorry, but having a character that will be dead until you increase enough in level to get that spell might as well be perma-death. Most players will roll up a new sheet. How is this better than merely draining XP?

Me, I'd make it a creature that drains the XP... and if you kill it you gain it all back plus the ammount for killing it. Sure, if it flees you lost some, but if you win, all is well.

TPK's aren't 'fun' either, but if I knew my DM was purposely watering down the encounter or fudging rolls to keep us alive I'd be ticked and not have as much fun. The risk is the flavor.

[BCOVertigo]

Because most PCs are losing their fear of DMs.

Huh? My compatriots fear me whether I'm playing or DMing, but maybe I just have a skewed perspective on the subject.:smallbiggrin:

Anyways, maybe you could make the monster condense the stolen XP into a crystal or solid form to feed to it's young. That and make it a runner (like an ethereal filcher or something) so the PC's have to quest a bit to get their XP back. Keeps the "omg thats evil" feel and gives the option of making it less severe if they're fast enough.

[Aximili]

Honestly, I want to groan every time I hear about folks saying DM's can't do something because 'It'd be too meeeean!'Nothing is too mean, just inconsequent.
The objective of the game is to overcome challenges. Some of them will set you back if you lose. Most will simply end your effort if you lose. But giving them a challenge that actually sets them back even if they win...


Sorry, but having a character that will be dead until you increase enough in level to get that spell might as well be perma-death. Most players will roll up a new sheet. How is this better than merely draining XP?

It's not, I just didn't want to get into the subject.

(edit)Thats why I support that characters should never be killed for good due to sheer bad luck. Wrong choices, reckless actions, even fearlessness can and should lead a PC to his doom. But simply rolling a 2 on that stupid save or die effect should never destroy all the effort you put into your character.

[paigeoliver]

Most of my players love to lose levels and XP, even to the point where I had to rule that there were no XP penalties for multiclassing.

Characters that lose experience levels in any way become more powerful in the long run.

Watch a 6th level character get smacked twice by a vampire and lose 4 levels. Now he is a second level character, with the loot of a 6th level character. Yes it puts him temporarily behind in the terms of the rest of the EXACT party he is with at the moment, but characters come and go in campaigns, and in the long run it puts him ahead.

[Mewtarthio]

How, exactly, do they end up ahead? They earn XP at an accelerated rate until they're on par with the rest of the party. While they're earning XP at an accelerated rate, they are weaker than everyone else. A second-level character will, in the short run, find most of the challenges that a sixth-level party faces to be extremely difficult at best.

[Thomas]

Because most PCs are losing their fear of DMs. This is how we restore it.

Grognard alert?

I'm scared to think what kind of a group you're DMing for if you feel the need to have them "fear" you!

RPGs are a collaborative effort. You don't need fear - shouldn't have fear, in fact. There should be collaboration and communication. What possible advantage does fear have?


Anyway, level drain does it all already. You fail the Fort save to remove the negative level, you lose an entire level. You have to roll for each of them separately. The more you rack up, the more likely it is you lose ECLx1000 XP plus change.


(edit)Thats why I support that characters should never be killed for good due to sheer bad luck. Wrong choices, reckless actions, even fearlessness can and should lead a PC to his doom. But simply rolling a 2 on that stupid save or die effect should never destroy all the effort you put into your character.

I'll sign that.

I'm fine with the concept of killing a PC with no dice roll, but I am don't like killing a PC for any reason other than their own choices. That's why I like games like Mongoose's RuneQuest, HeroQuest, Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay, etc., where you have hero/fate points that save the PC's life when bad luck comes a-knocking.

D&D is D&D; we play D&D combat pretty much as a wargame, especially since dead characters can come back easily. In all other (better) games, the above applies, though.


Most of my players love to lose levels and XP, even to the point where I had to rule that there were no XP penalties for multiclassing.

Characters that lose experience levels in any way become more powerful in the long run.

That's just a problem of methodology in your game. My players will rather create a new character than be set back by a single level, because they will be behind the rest of the party, they'll be weaker and less able to contribute, etc. (Although, honestly, you can catch up to the others in a few levels if you only lost one level, so raise dead shouldn't be a big deal.)

[paigeoliver]

Well we never create characters at levels higher than first. Everyone has to earn their levels. The characters in the campaign range from 1st to 12th at the moment, and yes sometimes first level characters end up playing beside 10th level ones, but usually everyone is within 3 or 4 levels of each other. Everyone in the campaign has at least 3 characters though.

[Thomas]

So level-drained characters are at a slight advantage compared to new characters, and at a huge disadvantage to older characters.

Why on earth would anyone want to be level-drained?

[paigeoliver]

Exactly, why they end up at an advantage is because just about everything is written for characters of a certain level. Published modules tend to be for an exact level, while my own tend to be targeted at a narrow range of levels. (Such as for 20-28 levels of characters). So everyone picks their characters to have a group to fit in the level range, and "Bob" the fifth level rogue who has been reincarnated 3 times and level drained six times is toting around 5 times as much loot as the rest of the party.

That is how it ends up going down in larger campaigns with multiple GMs. Specifically larger campaigns where not every player is present at every session.


So level-drained characters are at a slight advantage compared to new characters, and at a huge disadvantage to older characters.

Why on earth would anyone want to be level-drained?

[Thomas]

Like I said, that's a methodological problem that you, as DM, are creating. I - and many others - would never have it. It'd be easy to fix.

[Bears With Lasers]

Because most PCs are losing their fear of DMs. This is how we restore it.

I... I'm going to CUT you.

"Fear of DMs"? What the hell kind of game are YOU playing? If you're competing against your DM, you're doing it wrong.

[ExHunterEmerald]

So level-drained characters are at a slight advantage compared to new characters, and at a huge disadvantage to older characters.

Why on earth would anyone want to be level-drained?

The same reason they "want" to be hacked, beaten, stabbed, set aflame, and blasted with spells.

[paigeoliver]

It is sort of inherent to any larger gaming environment. Earning less XP than normal is just about seen as the way to "beat" the large multi-player RPGA campaigns.

Not that I actually have a big problem with that happening since I got rid of XP penalties, I don't think any of the characters in the current campaign have died more than once.


Like I said, that's a methodological problem that you, as DM, are creating. I - and many others - would never have it. It'd be easy to fix.

[Thomas]

It's only inherent if you make the mistake of treating the level-drained characters as characters of their current ECL. They should have to adventure with characters of their pre-drain level. (Working out a system for "buying off" this "level handicap" shouldn't be too hard, either.)

[Matthew]

Grognard alert?
I'm fine with the concept of killing a PC with no dice roll, but I am don't like killing a PC for any reason other than their own choices. That's why I like games like Mongoose's RuneQuest, HeroQuest, Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay, etc., where you have hero/fate points that save the PC's life when bad luck comes a-knocking.

Yeah, that was the primary reason I brought Destiny Points into my (A)D&D game.

[Callos_DeTerran]

I... I'm going to CUT you.

"Fear of DMs"? What the hell kind of game are YOU playing? If you're competing against your DM, you're doing it wrong.


He he he. The kind of game were the players (And not just when I'm playing but DMing too) where if you know what it is, then theres no reason not to tell everyone else and the characters know for some odd reason. That, and "fear of DMs" equates to "fear of unknown" in my games.

That and because of all the books out there, finding any kind of lasting penalty is hard. Why be afraid of vampires when theres a greater restoration around the corner? Introduce an unknown kind of damage nad PCs are scared of combat again, like in most respects if they actually play their characters, whcih most sane people are.

Example, I temporarily DMed a 19th level campaign were three balors were do to attack the outpost the party was in. Due to lucky rolls with a Vorpal Weapon and several wishes, the party wasn't even fazed or wondered if this was something important. Sent in a Shadow Demon who did vile damage, which none of them knew how to cure, and they were more terrified of that then the balors.

[The Vorpal Tribble]

Example, I temporarily DMed a 19th level campaign were three balors were do to attack the outpost the party was in. Due to lucky rolls with a Vorpal Weapon and several wishes, the party wasn't even fazed or wondered if this was something important. Sent in a Shadow Demon who did vile damage, which none of them knew how to cure, and they were more terrified of that then the balors.
*grins*

Love it. (they are also using OOC info and they deserve what they get)


Btw, noticed something while scrolling through this and had to ask... where are ya'lls avatars?

[Winged One]

Vorpal, if you absolutely must make this thing, at least let it be cured by (Lesser)Restoration.

[Callos_DeTerran]

*grins*

Love it. (they are also using OOC info and they deserve what they get)


Btw, noticed something while scrolling through this and had to ask... where are ya'lls avatars?


Mine? They should still be there.

[The Vorpal Tribble]

Mine? They should still be there.
No, most of the other posters.

[Tola]

"Fear of DMs"? What the hell kind of game are YOU playing? If you're competing against your DM, you're doing it wrong.

Except you are. In the battles.

DM controls monsters. You control your characters.

And the DM has to play them well, or at least decently true-to-type.

AIs are allowed to be stupid, to be fooled. People are not, apparently.

[Matthew]

No, no, no. Your DM is not attempting to defeat you. He could do that anytime. D&D is not a War Game, though it can be played in that manner.

War Games traditionally take place between two or more players with a Games Master overseeing the game. In D&D the Players are not competing against each other (at least not usually or directly), but interacting with the DM's world.

[Aximili]

That and because of all the books out there, finding any kind of lasting penalty is hard. Well, penalties are annoying (did I spell this right?), but nothing that takes away the fun. Lasting penalties mean lasting annoyance (does this even exist?), which is just stupid (not to say worse).


Why be afraid of vampires when theres a greater restoration around the corner?
There is?:smallconfused:


Introduce an unknown kind of damage
unknown http://www.giantitp.com/forums/images/icons/icon14.gif
permanent http://www.giantitp.com/forums/images/icons/icon13.gif


nad PCs are scared of combat again,
Are you running a horror campaign? Why do you want them scared so much? The word you're looking for is respect. They should respect the DM, and respect (be cautious of) combat. Scared players are boring. They'll take half a session to decide whether the risk is or isn't worth taking.
Instead, they should sanely decide if combat is necessary and understand that it is a risk, not run away from the slightest hint of it.



Sent in a Shadow Demon who did vile damage, which none of them knew how to cure, and they were more terrified of that then the balors.
I love this! Unknown kind of damage that can be cured, only they don't how. Definitely something to avoid them from jumping boldly into combat.

[necron lord]

I agree that the if a charicter dies becaue he made the choice to charge a greater deamon, he totaly should die. However, if you use logic you can get out of most things. Also, I agree that if you make something that isn't permament but the players don't know how to cure, that is fun for the DM. Plus, I was looking for respect from the players not fear. You don't want them really scared otherwise they wont do anything. IF you make something new and diferent the players look at you in a diferent light.

[DeathQuaker]

The problem with "XP drain" is that as described, it has no effects except on the player's meta-knowledge of what's happened to their character.

A character who had 1125 XP and now has 1025 XP isn't going to notice, except maybe a vague description that "you feel weaker." I see no mechanical effects on the character otherwise. Of course, if he goes from 1125 to 999 he's lost a level, but then of course that goes under "Level Drain" for which there are already mechanics detailed, and in-game, we can see the PC feels notably weaker, his memories are fuzzier, and his performance is off.

In other words, "XP Drain" has no effect but to annoy and hinder the PLAYER, not the CHARACTER, neither mechanically nor storywise. And I'd not even put my dice in the general direction of a person who thought that idea had any sort of point or purpose in a Role-playing game.

As for "challenge," a good GM can take a horde of orcs on roller skates and turn it into a viable, suspenseful challenge if that's what he wants to do. We don't need cheesy, metagame "punishments" in a game that already provides more than sufficient suspense for anyone creative enough to carry it off. If you find you can't, the problem isn't the system and the lack of damage-types, the problem is, frankly, you.

[silvermesh]

As for "challenge," a good GM can take a horde of orcs on roller skates and turn it into a viable, suspenseful challenge if that's what he wants to do.

I could do it with ice skates, but I doubt my players would take roller skates seriously even if they all had flamethrowers.

[Mewtarthio]

So, I take it you're opposed the ten-foot-step "Gliding Boots"?