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AttilaTheGeek

2013-11-13, 09:37 PM

Hello! As I like to do, I'm creating a brainstorming thread to get preliminary feedback before embarking on a long homebrew project. I am considering building a new E6 set of classes, which would draw inspiration from 4E, World of Warcraft, and Pathfinder within a 3.5 framework. My primary goals are to

Equalize every class's tier at T4/T5
Promote strategic combat
Increase balance between party members
Make blasting, healing and tanking both feasible and fun
Give each class a unique resource system to manage over the course of an encounter
Lower the distance between the optimization floor and the optimization ceiling

I plan to do so by:

Contructing every class on a consistent 6-level framework
Replacing spells with a much smaller set of spell-like abilities
Giving mundanes interesting extraordinary abilities
Lengthening encounters to give more time to maneuver by giving more hit points to every creature and monster
Standardize characters around a ten-class system in which one class draws from each of four power sources (martial, guile, divine, and arcane) and one class from each combination of the two. The basis for this idea comes from Pair O' Dice Lost.

Here's what I have for the different classes:
{table=head]Name|Power|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Resource(s)
Warrior|Martial|Full|Good|Bad|Bad|Rage

Swashbuckler|Martial/Guile|Full|Good|Good|Bad|Energy? Not sure.

Rogue|Guile|3/4|Bad|Good|Bad|Combo points

Trickster|Guile/Arcane|3/4|Bad|Good|Good|Maybe both mana and combo points?

Mage|Arcane|1/2|Bad|Bad|Good|Mana

Theurge|Arcane/Divine|1/2|Bad|Bad|Good|Mana and Holy Power*

Cleric|Divine|1/2|Bad|Bad|Good|Mana or Holy Power*

Paladin|Divine/Martial|Full|Good|Bad|Good|Holy Power*

Swordsage|Arcane/Martial|Full|Good|Bad|Good|Mana?

Inquisitor|Divine/Guile|3/4|Bad|Good|Good|Holy power and combo points[/table]
*May be renamed "Zeal"

Here, different resources are managed over different timescales.

Combo Points start at zero, are built by doing sneak attacks, and are spent on abilities.
Holy Power (or Zeal) starts at zero, are built by some supernatural or spell-like abilities, and are spent by others.
Rage is increased whenever you deal or take damage.
Mana is restored at the beginning of every day, like standard spells.
I may also add energy, which starts at full and is spent over an encounter.

It is my hope that managing a resource or two over an encounter, as well as a paradigm of five- or six-round combats as opposed to one-round slugfests, will create a game where combat is more strategic and put an end to the rocket tag phenomenon.

Here is the framework for every class:
{table=head]Level|Class Features
1|Resource, Unified Feature, Archetype Ability
2|Tier 2 Talent, Archetype Ability
3|Bonus Feat, Archetype Ability
4|Tier 4 Talent, Archetype Ability
5|Unified Feature, Archetype Ability
6|Tier 6 Talent, Archetype Ability[/table]

Resource represents the class's resource(s) that they'll manage over time.

Archetype Abilities are a major component of the system. Each class has several archetypes, and each of them has six archetype abilities in order. Every level, you can take any one, but they must be taken in order within an archetype.

For example, two archetypes of the Paladin class are the Guardian, which focuses on sustaining heavy damage, and the Vengeant, who focuses on dealing melee single-target damage. A first-level paladin might choose the Guardian first-level archetype ability, which does something to reduce damage taken. When that paladin reaches second level, she could choose the second-level Guardian archetype ability or the first-level Vengeant archetype ability. She could not choose the second-level Vengeant archetype ability, because she'd have to learn the first-level before doing so.

Talents are abilities unique to a class, and each member of a class chooses one (and only one) talent of tier 2, 4, and 6 at levels 2, 4, and 6 respectively. All three talents within a tier have a similar idea, but different execution. All tier 2 talents emphasize movement, all tier 4 talents emphasize survivability, and all tier 6 talents are capstones. The talents are unified thus to give a DM an expectation of what a character of any given level can do; if a DM knows that all 2nd-level characters have some way to get to or away from a target, then they can design encounters around that knowledge.

For example, the paladin is a melee class, so its tier 2 talents all focus around getting close to a target. One gives a permanent passive movement speed bonus proportional to the amount of holy power you have, one lets you teleport to the target of your Smite Evil, and one lets you immobilize a Chaotic or Evil target at range for a round or two. They all allow a Paladin to close to melee more effectively, but a Paladin can only choose one of them. Regardless of which they choose, their DM will know that a Paladin will be able to quickly and reliably get into melee, and can keep that mind when building encounters.

Note: I would love not to use "tier" here, but "level" is already taken twice and I really don't want to use "strata".

Unified Features are class features that every member of a class gets. Every Paladin gets to Smite Evil, every level 5 mage gets to fly, and so on.

Bonus Feats... are bonus feats. They're pretty straightforward.

Well, what do you think? Is this framework worth expanding into an entire set of classes? What changes do you think should be made? Please, leave feedback!

Gnorman

2013-11-13, 09:51 PM

Wouldn't this result in ten classes? You're missing a Martial/Arcane (spellblade?) and a Guile/Divine (inquisitor? monk?) class. How do you plan on working in concepts like the Barbarian, Druid, or Ranger (if at all)?

I do like the resource system - I've been working on one for combat classes for some time, with something similar to "rage points." Each class would get a single rage point each round, and could garner more by certain actions (depending on class - a barbarian would get an additional point per turn if in a rage, whereas a paladin would get one each time he was attacked).

Combo points is going to be a hard system to find workable if you limit only to sneak attack. Maybe skill use in combat as well? Reward acrobatic maneuvering, misdirection etc.

As far as magic goes, I like the push to replace spells with spell-like abilities, but I worry that it's going to make the magic classes feel same-y unless the new system is somewhat robust. Are you planning on doing away with utility spells and focusing on in-combat use?

In any case, you know me, always happy to help with E6 projects.

AttilaTheGeek

2013-11-13, 10:02 PM

Wouldn't this result in ten classes? You're missing a Martial/Arcane (spellblade?) and a Guile/Divine (inquisitor? monk?) class.

...Yes. Yes it would.

How do you plan on working in concepts like the Barbarian, Druid, or Ranger (if at all)?

The natural classes are just archetypes. Barbarian is a Warrior archetype, because in terms of design space it's not significantly different. Same with the Druid for the Cleric. The Ranger is another Fighter archetype, but that's the one I feel most awkward about. I almost added another power source based off nature, but I felt like fifteen classes was too many.

I do like the resource system - I've been working on one for combat classes for some time, with something similar to "rage points." Each class would get a single rage point each round, and could garner more by certain actions (depending on class - a barbarian would get an additional point per turn if in a rage, whereas a paladin would get one each time he was attacked).

My plan for rage specifically is that whenever you deal or take damage you gain one rage to a max of, say, ten. Then, you can spend rage to deal extra damage, block attacks with a shield, or add rider effects like a dispel to your attacks.

Combo points is going to be a hard system to find workable if you limit only to sneak attack. Maybe skill use in combat as well? Reward acrobatic maneuvering, misdirection etc.

Good ideas! I'll be sure to incorporate these.

As far as magic goes, I like the push to replace spells with spell-like abilities, but I worry that it's going to make the magic classes feel same-y unless the new system is somewhat robust. Are you planning on doing away with utility spells and focusing on in-combat use?

Yeah, I'm cutting utility almost entirely. That's why I want to rebalance around a lower tier: by making class features mostly combat based and cutting most utility, a player has to look to their own imagination and the environment to solve out-of-combat problems instead of to their class features.

In any case, you know me, always happy to help with E6 projects.

Actually, Gnorman, you have no idea how many times I've gone into the d20 subforum's "Why is X over/underpowered" threads and just wanted to reply with "Gnorman's E6 Compendium: the answer to all your balance problems". I never have, but I've always wanted to, just because your E6 compendium is so well done. I'm honored to have your help! :smallbiggrin:

Gnorman

2013-11-13, 11:12 PM

...Yes. Yes it would.

Heh, I always forget about the whole "rogue + cleric" archetype myself, mainly because it really doesn't have a lot of traction in the fiction. I usually try to pigeonhole the monk there as a sort of mobile skirmisher fueled by divine power, but I've never gotten the balance right.

Now the gish concept, on the other hand, is something that I feel should be a base class all its own.

The natural classes are just archetypes. Barbarian is a Warrior archetype, because in terms of design space it's not significantly different. Same with the Druid for the Cleric. The Ranger is another Fighter archetype, but that's the one I feel most awkward about. I almost added another power source based off nature, but I felt like fifteen classes was too many.

Makes perfect sense to me, though I always wanted to find a way to separate the barbarian from the fighter, at least conceptually. There's a lot of design space around the barbarian that doesn't get explored - connection to nature, totems (most of the time it's just a stupid bonus feat), shamanism, etc. Same with the ranger - usually it's just fighter + bows + animal + crappy spellcasting. I think a ranger should be more tactical, laying traps and forcing foes into them via arrows and the companion. Rewards planning and knowledge of the environment.

Adding a fifth source for nature would be tough. While I think fifteen classes is actually a good benchmark (that's just me, though), it'd be hard to come up with five distinct classes just for nature. What's the difference between Nature/Arcane and Nature/Divine? Or plain Nature, for that matter? I think you're making the right call. Nature as a power source only supports about three concepts - druid, barbarian, and ranger. More than that, and you start splitting hairs.

My plan for rage specifically is that whenever you deal or take damage you gain one rage to a max of, say, ten. Then, you can spend rage to deal extra damage, block attacks with a shield, or add rider effects like a dispel to your attacks.

The rider effects interests me the most here. I'm interested to see what you do with the abilities beyond numerical bonuses, because that's where I think the combat classes have the greatest potential. Something less overtly supernatural than ToB, but still with the same kind of versatility.

Yeah, I'm cutting utility almost entirely. That's why I want to rebalance around a lower tier: by making class features mostly combat based and cutting most utility, a player has to look to their own imagination and the environment to solve out-of-combat problems instead of to their class features.

Yeah, god forbid we remove Tongues and Speak With Dead from the game. Players might actually have to solve mysteries. My tack was to split utility spells between the classes (so no one could solve ALL the problems), but straight-up elimination works too. How do you plan on treating long-term buff spells?

Also, how do you plan on treating the divisions of arcane/divine between classes? Half-casting?

If I can make a suggestion here, you might wish to organize your spell-like abilities into thematic "schools." Each class could select a certain number of schools, with some schools being divine-only or arcane-only or requiring archetype abilities or certain alignments to choose. A pure arcane class might be able to select one "school" per level, while a hybrid would only get one every two levels, or something to that extent. So hybrids aren't any less powerful per se, but they do end up less versatile. The pure mage could become the master of Teleportation, Necromancy, Curses, Shadow, Trickery, and Charm, for example. The trickster would be limited to Charm, Trickery, and maybe Shadow at his peak.

Also, because I'm going crazy with the brainstorming, I have another idea for Mana usage: Spend, Invest, Burn. Spending mana produces less powerful but basically at will effects. Investing cuts down your supply to produce passive benefits. Burning permanently reduces your mana supply for the day, but brings about very powerful effects.

Practical example: You get X amount of mana, whatever that may be. Let's say 6 at 6th level, just for ease of example's sake.

You have one ability, let's call it Holy Fire. It has three subabilities. One based on Spending mana - by spending one mana, you can shoot a burst of flame that does 1d6 damage to a single target. You could spend up to your maximum (dealing 6d6), but mana only regenerates at a rate of one per round. You can fudge the rates here - maybe you can spend only half your maximum on any one ability, but it does 2d6 per mana point spent instead.

By Investing mana in Holy Fire, you gain a passive benefit. Each point invested is locked off, and it takes a full-round action to unlock invested mana. But for each point you Invest, your allies' attacks gain +1 fire damage. So you could invest the whole shebang and you and your party would deal +6 fire damage with each attack, but not be able to sling your firebolts.

Burning is the big gun. Let's say you can Burn a point of mana to throw a fireball, as per the spell. 6d6 damage in a large area, etc. That point of mana NO LONGER REGENERATES until the next day.

So with one ability and the commensurate resource system, you have a host of tactical choices. Do you contribute consistent damage with your fire rays? Do you buff your party, but cut off your ability to actively contribute with magic? Or do you sacrifice a large portion of your power to end the encounter with a bang?

Actually, Gnorman, you have no idea how many times I've gone into the d20 subforum's "Why is X over/underpowered" threads and just wanted to reply with "Gnorman's E6 Compendium: the answer to all your balance problems". I never have, but I've always wanted to, just because your E6 compendium is so well done. I'm honored to have your help! :smallbiggrin:

Well, thank you kindly.

Composer99

2013-11-13, 11:30 PM

As far as making tanking fun goes, I think World of Warcraft has some good insights/notions:

(1) Tanks have high damage avoidance and mitigation abilities.
(2) Tanks have large pools of hit points and decent ways to recover them (at least, better ways to self-heal than non-tank, non-healer classes).
(3) Tanks have ways to make enemies "stick" to them, whether through taunt/aggro mechanisms, or stun/slow/forced move battlefield control, or (from 4E but maybe also WoW - it's been a long time since I've played my warrior tank) mark/punishment.
(4) Tanks have the means to quickly shake off enemy debuffs.
(5) Tanks need all these things, because the bad guys hit hard!(*)

(*) Of course, in an E6 game one hardly requires that typical enemies be able to consistently one-shot "squishy" PCs the way raid mobs can in WoW. And, where in WoW hit point pools are large enough - and asymmetric enough - the final raid boss in Mists of Pandaria has 451 million hp (in the hardest difficulty setting) while typical PC tank hit point pools by that stage of the game appear to be in the range of 750 thousand - that rocket tag is not a feasible combat strategy, I don't think you can get (or even justify) those kinds of asymmetries in E6.

Gnorman

2013-11-13, 11:36 PM

As far as making tanking fun goes, I think World of Warcraft has some good insights/notions:

(1) Tanks have high damage avoidance and mitigation abilities.

Damage reduction and/or armor class bonus.

(2) Tanks have large pools of hit points and decent ways to recover them (at least, better ways to self-heal than non-tank, non-healer classes).

Larger hit dice, fast healing perhaps?

(3) Tanks have ways to make enemies "stick" to them, whether through taunt/aggro mechanisms, or stun/slow/forced move battlefield control, or (from 4E but maybe also WoW - it's been a long time since I've played my warrior tank) mark/punishment.

I've usually seen this done in one of three ways: (1) the tank uses an ability that forces the target to attack them, usually via a Will save, (2) the tank has some sort of intercept/protect ability that lets them "take" attacks targeted at their allies, or (3) the tank gains large damage bonuses when enemies DON'T attack them, effectively punishing the enemy severely for not doing so.

I think I like (3) the best, followed by (2).

(4) Tanks have the means to quickly shake off enemy debuffs.

Iron heart surge?

(5) Tanks need all these things, because the bad guys hit hard!

Not quite so much in E6, as you note. But a lucky crit can still swing combat very quickly. I think tank capstone abilities should include a way to turn a lethal blow into a glancing one, or come back from the brink of death somehow.

But very good principles, and ones to think about.

Composer99

2013-11-13, 11:40 PM

With regards to combo points, I think that, again, the way WoW handles it might be a good starting point, with several different abilities that allow you to build up combo points, and finishing moves (which could include riders on sneak attack as well as others) that expend them.

With respect to a "Primal" or nature-themed power source, I can almost see it working as a separate category.

Primal - Shaman or Spirit Shaman
Primal/Martial - The Barbarian
Primal/Guile - The Ranger
Primal/Arcane - Witch (similar, I think, to Pathfinder)
Primal/Divine - Druid

I really ought to be going and putting the garbage & recycling out right now, so I'm going to have to come back to this thread later (tomorrow, most likely) if I want to come up with ways to justify the separate existence of these classes instead of them being archetypes of the others.

GunbladeKnight

2013-11-14, 12:35 AM

As far as tanking in D&D goes, I think the knight would be the place to start.

You could do the whole rage/energy/mana thing that WoW does, but I also find Gnorman's take on mana to be very interesting and I may have to stealborrow it.

I look forward to what your classes will look like as I am also building my own E6 classes because (no offense to op or Gnorman) I have a different view of how they should be.

Also, you should consider tweaking the incantation rules for the more major spells. (ie: instead of the guy in the door they provide as an example, the spell gate becomes an incantation. TG Oskar had a write up about it.)

Rebonack

2013-11-14, 01:07 AM

I'm not terribly fond of hard-taunt mechanics. They really don't make much sense. The fighter-y guy yelling 'Yo mama!' at the dragon isn't going to make it any more inclined to go after him instead of smashing one of the squishy folks.

That said, a character that's going to tank needs several abilities.

1) The ability to start a fight on terms that are favorable to his party.

2) The ability to peel for his softer team mates if something awful goes after them.

3) The ability to pose a viable threat whether through damage, healing, disables, auras, or some combination of the four. The tank needs abilities that make ignoring him tactically unsound.

4) The ability to take a hit like a champ.

Gnorman

2013-11-14, 01:41 AM

Just as another example of the ability I'm suggesting:

Hungry Shadows

Spend: As a standard action, the mage can use Hungry Shadows to cloud the eyes of a target within 60 ft. For every point of mana spent, the target is blinded for one round unless it makes a Fortitude save. The DC is equal to 10 + the mage's Intelligence modifier + 1/2 the mana spent (minimum of 1).
Invest: For every point of mana invested in Hungry Shadows, the mage gains 5% concealment.
Burn: As a standard action, the mage sends his shadows out in a 15 ft. radius, attacking all enemies within. For every point of mana burned, the shadows deal 1d6 negative energy damage, to a maximum of 6d6. For every three points of mana burned, affected enemies must make a Fortitude save (DC: 10 + INT + 1/2 mana burned) or suffer one negative level.

Composer99

2013-11-14, 02:07 AM

With respect to the comments by myself and others on tanking, I should like to add that a tank should have some strong interrupt capability.

Basically, if you are trying to move past the tank to get at the squishies, expect to be stopped up if you don't have some good manoeuvrability (say, by being a dedicated skirmisher type).

And if you're a squishy yourself, the outer planes help you if you have a tank standing next to you when you want to cast a spell...

AttilaTheGeek

2013-11-14, 07:45 AM

Heh, I always forget about the whole "rogue + cleric" archetype myself, mainly because it really doesn't have a lot of traction in the fiction. I usually try to pigeonhole the monk there as a sort of mobile skirmisher fueled by divine power, but I've never gotten the balance right.

Same, yeah. I expect that class to be one of the hardest to write. I'll take a look at 4E's divine controller, which I believe is the Invoker, for some ideas. I might be able to just cannibalize other class features and put them in there, but we'll see.

Now the gish concept, on the other hand, is something that I feel should be a base class all its own.

I agree completely. I was just tired enough that I forgot it when I wrote up the OP :smallredface:

Makes perfect sense to me, though I always wanted to find a way to separate the barbarian from the fighter, at least conceptually. There's a lot of design space around the barbarian that doesn't get explored - connection to nature, totems (most of the time it's just a stupid bonus feat), shamanism, etc. Same with the ranger - usually it's just fighter + bows + animal + crappy spellcasting. I think a ranger should be more tactical, laying traps and forcing foes into them via arrows and the companion. Rewards planning and knowledge of the environment.

Adding a fifth source for nature would be tough. While I think fifteen classes is actually a good benchmark (that's just me, though), it'd be hard to come up with five distinct classes just for nature. What's the difference between Nature/Arcane and Nature/Divine? Or plain Nature, for that matter? I think you're making the right call. Nature as a power source only supports about three concepts - druid, barbarian, and ranger. More than that, and you start splitting hairs.

(emphasis mine) I agree, but I wonder if the "druid" concept isn't so big that it could hold multiple classes. I'm not sure what the natural resource would be, but I've come up with some ideas for class features that build off the ideas Composer99 came up with.

With respect to a "Primal" or nature-themed power source, I can almost see it working as a separate category.

Primal - Shaman or Spirit Shaman
Primal/Martial - The Barbarian
Primal/Guile - The Ranger
Primal/Arcane - Witch (similar, I think, to Pathfinder)
Primal/Divine - Druid

The Shaman (I think "spirit" is redundant here) has an animal companion as its primary class feature, and different archetypes give a second companion, buffing, nature-themed blasting, and maybe healing.

The Barbarian uses totems that he places along the ground to buff himself and his allies, and archetypes give an animal companion, limited shapeshifting, and...? I'd like one or two more here.

The Ranger's primary class feature is shapeshifting, and archetypes give traps, an animal companion, sneak attack/combo points, and maybe one more?

The primal/arcane is the Summoner, and its primary class feature is a magical pseudo-animal companion called an eidolon that it enhances with extra limbs or abilities. I see it being similar to the Pathfinder Summoner, and archetypes give the ability to merge with your eidolon, the ability to summon multiple smaller eidolons, or [one or two more here]

Finally, the Druid relies on the combination of [whatever the natural resource is] and Holy Power. This is the primal class I'm least sure about, because it seems to strongly overlap with the Shaman.

Yeah, god forbid we remove Tongues and Speak With Dead from the game. Players might actually have to solve mysteries.

Exactly!

My tack was to split utility spells between the classes (so no one could solve ALL the problems), but straight-up elimination works too. How do you plan on treating long-term buff spells?

What long-term buff spells?

Also, how do you plan on treating the divisions of arcane/divine between classes? Half-casting?

Some abilities cost mana, and some cost Holy Power, that's all.

If I can make a suggestion here, you might wish to organize your spell-like abilities into thematic "schools." Each class could select a certain number of schools, with some schools being divine-only or arcane-only or requiring archetype abilities or certain alignments to choose. A pure arcane class might be able to select one "school" per level, while a hybrid would only get one every two levels, or something to that extent. So hybrids aren't any less powerful per se, but they do end up less versatile. The pure mage could become the master of Teleportation, Necromancy, Curses, Shadow, Trickery, and Charm, for example. The trickster would be limited to Charm, Trickery, and maybe Shadow at his peak.

Hmm. Maybe. I don't think that fits so well with what I already had, but I do like it.

Also, because I'm going crazy with the brainstorming, I have another idea for Mana usage: Spend, Invest, Burn. Spending mana produces less powerful but basically at will effects. Investing cuts down your supply to produce passive benefits. Burning permanently reduces your mana supply for the day, but brings about very powerful effects.

(example snipped for length)

I like this system, but I don't know that every ability should have to have all three types of usages. If an ability (should I start calling them spells?) has only Spend and Invest usage types, then that's fine.

As far as making tanking fun goes, I think World of Warcraft has some good insights/notions:

(1) Tanks have high damage avoidance and mitigation abilities.
(2) Tanks have large pools of hit points and decent ways to recover them (at least, better ways to self-heal than non-tank, non-healer classes).
(3) Tanks have ways to make enemies "stick" to them, whether through taunt/aggro mechanisms, or stun/slow/forced move battlefield control, or (from 4E but maybe also WoW - it's been a long time since I've played my warrior tank) mark/punishment.
(4) Tanks have the means to quickly shake off enemy debuffs.
(5) Tanks need all these things, because the bad guys hit hard!(*)

(*) Of course, in an E6 game one hardly requires that typical enemies be able to consistently one-shot "squishy" PCs the way raid mobs can in WoW. And, where in WoW hit point pools are large enough - and asymmetric enough - the final raid boss in Mists of Pandaria has 451 million hp (in the hardest difficulty setting) while typical PC tank hit point pools by that stage of the game appear to be in the range of 750 thousand - that rocket tag is not a feasible combat strategy, I don't think you can get (or even justify) those kinds of asymmetries in E6.

Like I said in the OP, I want to lengthen encounters by increasing hit points. Player hit points are multiplied by two, or by three for tanks, and monster hit points are multiplied by three to five.

I've usually seen [encouraging enemies to attack the tank] done in one of three ways: (1) the tank uses an ability that forces the target to attack them, usually via a Will save, (2) the tank has some sort of intercept/protect ability that lets them "take" attacks targeted at their allies, or (3) the tank gains large damage bonuses when enemies DON'T attack them, effectively punishing the enemy severely for not doing so.

I think I like (3) the best, followed by (2).

I have a new class feature idea that I'll reveal later today once it's more codified. It should allow tanks to incorporate all three.

Not quite so much in E6, as you note. But a lucky crit can still swing combat very quickly. I think tank capstone abilities should include a way to turn a lethal blow into a glancing one, or come back from the brink of death somehow.

Tank archetype abilities for levels 1-4 all give a 25% chance to ignore critical hits, so anyone who spends four of their six archetype abilities on their class's tanking archetype becomes immune to critical hits. It specifically will not stop other forms of precision damage.

I look forward to what your classes will look like as I am also building my own E6 classes because (no offense to op or Gnorman) I have a different view of how they should be.

If you want to swap ideas right here or via PM, I'd be happy to.

Also, you should consider tweaking the incantation rules for the more major spells. (ie: instead of the guy in the door they provide as an example, the spell gate becomes an incantation. TG Oskar had a write up about it.)

What are you trying to say here? The guy in the door? Gate? What write up are you talking about?

Composer99

2013-11-14, 09:15 AM

The Shaman (I think "spirit" is redundant here) has an animal companion as its primary class feature, and different archetypes give a second companion, buffing, nature-themed blasting, and maybe healing.

The Barbarian uses totems that he places along the ground to buff himself and his allies, and archetypes give an animal companion, limited shapeshifting, and...? I'd like one or two more here.

The Ranger's primary class feature is shapeshifting, and archetypes give traps, an animal companion, sneak attack/combo points, and maybe one more?

The primal/arcane is the Summoner, and its primary class feature is a magical pseudo-animal companion called an eidolon that it enhances with extra limbs or abilities. I see it being similar to the Pathfinder Summoner, and archetypes give the ability to merge with your eidolon, the ability to summon multiple smaller eidolons, or [one or two more here]

Finally, the Druid relies on the combination of [whatever the natural resource is] and Holy Power. This is the primal class I'm least sure about, because it seems to strongly overlap with the Shaman.

WoW, 3.5 and 4E all manage to create a different "design space" for the druid and shaman, all in relatively different ways, so it seems to me it can be done.

Perhaps if the Shaman resorts to calling upon animistic spirits as her primary shtick; then archetypes let her call upon different kinds of spirits - animal spirits, tree spirits, insect spirits (perhaps these can be dangerous to deal with à la Shadowrun?), ancestor spirits, lares & penates (http://www.mythencyclopedia.com/Iz-Le/Lares-and-Penates.html) (household "gods"/spirits for more of an "urban" feel), blighted spirits, and perhaps others - or grant her different ways to call upon the spirits (e.g. let them enter her body or even possess her briefly, similar to voudoun).

The spirit calling would grant the shaman her buff/debuff, control & affliction, healing/HoT, and direct damage/DoT powers. Then animal companions, totems, and shapeshifting could be secondary/tertiary class features that tie in her common nature with other "primal" classes.

(This would also give the shaman a different "design space" than the Summoner, as envisaged above they both have animal companion as a primary class feature.)

For the druid's part, perhaps he could rely more on the raw power of nature itself (as compared to animist spirits) or, as a primal/divine hybrid, a primal Earth-mother or Earth-father being (or a variant of the modern Wiccan mother goddess/horned god pair).

The druid could then rely on druidic magic to manipulate animals, plants, faerie creatures, the elements (classic or otherwise), and forces of nature (such as storms) as his primary shtick, and could build himself as either a melee fighter (using his magic to buff himself & others) or a control/debuff/ranged attacker type.

Secondary/tertiary shticks, archetypes, and alternate class features for the druid could be animal companion, shapeshifting, summoning, healing (*) and perhaps even something similar to the channel (divinity) power from Pathfinder/4E. I suppose one could add totems, but I personally have never really thought of totems as a "druid" thing, per se.

(*) I would say the druid, if conceived as a primal/divine hybrid, would be a better choice for a primary/secondary healer than the shaman - perhaps some decent healing ability should be "baked in" to the base druid chassis, with archetypes/ACFs/feat support able to boost it to "primary healer" levels, while the shaman has limited healing but can use archetypes/ACFs/feat support to become decent at it?

AttilaTheGeek

2013-11-14, 12:36 PM

WoW, 3.5 and 4E all manage to create a different "design space" for the druid and shaman, all in relatively different ways, so it seems to me it can be done.

Perhaps if the Shaman resorts to calling upon animistic spirits as her primary shtick...

Yes, I like this a lot. It's coming together nicely!

Here's my idea for a natural resource, called Vigor. It starts from 0 and ranges from -3 to +3. While your Vigor total is negative, abilities that increase your Vigor total are 50% more effective, and while your Vigor is positive, abilities that spend Vigor are 50% more effective. Vigor does not automatically change during combat, but it increases (if negative) or decreases (if positive) at a rate of one per minute out of combat.

I might tweak the 50% number up or down, but I want to emphasize natural balance here. This is similar to WoW's balance druid, but it is mechanically distinct from the Eclipse system they have. The only thing I'm not sure about is how to thematically differentiate between abilities that spend vigor and those that restore it.

Okay, so here's a table of all of the classes and what I have for them so far. DoT is short for damage over time, and HoT is short for heal over time. Everything in italics is what I haven't decided yet or what I'm not sure about.

{table=head]Name|Power source|Resource(s)|Primary class feature|Archetypes|Notes

Warrior|Martial|Rage|Attacking?|Tank, Bleed (DoTs), direct damage , agility (ranged weapons)|Gets nerfed Power Attack from 1, is a frontliner

Swashbuckler|Martial/Guile|Combo Points|Bleed DoT on all attacks|More DoTs (poison), |Combines the CP of the Rogue with the toe-to-toe playstyle of the Warrior

Rogue|Guile|Combo Points|Sneak attack for CPs|Poison (dots), burst damage, immobilization/control|Very mobile, very stealthy, very single-target damage

Trickster|Guile/Arcane|CP and Mana|Ray touch attack, like Eldritch Blast|Illusions/enchantments, single-target damage, debuffs?|Will be mostly at range while in combat.

Mage|Arcane|Mana|Magic Missile variant?|Blasting/dots (fire), blasting/control (frost), battlefield control|More blast-focused than a 3.5 wizard, and has less utility.

Theurge|Arcane/Divine|Mana and Holy Power|Ability to convert between HoPo and Mana|Summoning (necromancy), buffing, debuffing, healing|Occupies a very large design space, and I'mnot sure how to fill it.

Cleric|Divine|Holy Power|Channel Energy to heal or harm|Draining energy (direct damage w/dots), Straight healing, Healing with shields/HoTs, buffing|Very much a support class, but I want to make sure it's still fun to play.

Paladin|Divine/Martial|Holy Power|Smite Evil|Tank, straight damage, healing|Is the class for which I have the most ideas so far. I'll write this one up first, maybe even later today.

Inquisitor|Divine/Guile|Holy Power and Combo Points|Can convert between HoPo and CP|Moving self and others around battlefield, healing, single-target damage|I expect the resource management here to be very interesting.

Swordsage|Martial/Arcane|Rage and Mana|Channeling damaging energy through weapon|Tanking, single-target damage, area damage|Can use rage to restore mana, so mana is an encounter resource instead of daily.

Shaman|Primal|Vigor|Spirit companion|Buffing, second companion, healing|I want to make sure it feels different from the Druid and Cleric.

Barbarian|Primal/Martial|Vigor and Rage|Totems|Totem power, Animal companion, tanking via self-healing, shapeshifting|I want it to be mechanically distinct from the Warrior while fulfilling very similar roles.

Ranger|Primal/Guile|Combo Points and Vigor|Shapeshifting|Single-target damage, traps, animal companion, limited healing|A primary damage-dealer.

Summoner|Primal/Arcane|Mana|Customizable eidolon companion|Enhanced eidolon, buffing, battlefield control|I plan on fully incorporating or minimally tweaking the rules for Pathfinder's eidolons.

Druid|Primal/Divine|Vigor and Holy Power|Primary Class Feature|Shapeshifting, healing, battlefield control, buffing|Again, I worry about it being too similar to the Shaman and/or Cleric.[/table]

Here's a bit about each resource, to make sure everyone understands what I'm thinking and can give feedback.

Rage is the martial resource, and Warriors, Swordsages, and Barbarians use rage. It starts at 0, has a max of 10, and increases by 1 every time you deal or take damage. Some abilities also increase rage, and you spend it to do stuff.

Combo Points (CP) are the guile resource, and Rogues, Tricksters, Swashbucklers, Inquisitors, and Rangers use combo points.Every time you deal sneak attack damage, you gain combo points equal to the number of sneak attack dice rolled. Combo points cap at 6 for everyone and disappear out of combat, so they start at 0. Rogues have one sneak attack die per two levels, rounded up (1, 3, and 5), and Tricksters, Swashbucklers, Inquisitors, and Rangers have one per three levels rounded up (1 and 4). You spend combo points to do stuff.

Mana is the arcane resource, and Mages, Tricksters, Swordsages, Summoners, and Theurges use Mana. Swordsages have a Mana pool equal to INT mod +1. Tricksters have a Mana pool equal to 2*INT mod + 2. Summoners and Theurges have a Mana pool equal to 3*INT mod +3. Mages have a Mana pool equal to 4*INT mod +4. Most abilities cost between 1 and 3 Mana. Mana normally restores at the beginning of each day, but Swordsages can convert Rage to Mana. While I do like Gnorman's idea for the three different ways to spend mana, I don't think I'll use it. You spend mana to do stuff.

Holy Power (HoPo) is the divine resource, and Clerics, Paladins, Inquisitors, Theurges, and Druids use Holy Power. Holy Power deteriorates at a rate of one per minute, so it usually starts at 0, and it caps at 4. Some abilities generate Holy Power, and you can spend it to do stuff.

Vigor is the primal resource, and Shamans, Barbarians, Rangers, and Druids use Vigor. Vigor starts at 0 and ranges from -3 to +3. Some abilities increase Vigor, and some decrease it. While Vigor is positive, abilities that spend Vigor are empowered and have all numerical effects increased by 50%. While Vigor is negative, abilities that increase Vigor are empowered instead.

And there you have it! Feedback, anyone? Love it? Hate it? Let me know!

Composer99

2013-11-14, 01:26 PM

Perhaps to differentiate between the Shaman and Druid, one of them can be support-focused (I would say the Shaman), and the other can be control-focused (I would say Druid)?

For example, a Shaman could:
- call upon spirits to shield her allies, either by providing concealment or bonuses to defences, or by providing retributive strikes or a damaging aura
- call upon spirits to remove harmful debuffs (either directly, or by giving the shaman or an ally a re-roll on a save, or similar)
- call upon spirits to boost the weapon attacks of her allies (say, by aligning a weapon, even using an alignment opposed to the Shaman's own, because she can call upon the correct spirits)

While a Druid could:
- shape the earth to generate difficult terrain
- entangle foes with plant growth
- hinder enemies' movements with gusts of wind

Also, with reference to the Earth-mother/horned god mythos, perhaps a druid's primary class feature could be something like:

"Aspect" - the druid takes on an aspect of a primal "avatar" of some large concept of the natural world.

This aspect changes the druid's appearance (while not being a full shapeshift) and makes him more effective at a specific element of his role.

For example, a druid taking on a "Sky-Father" aspect could have command over wind, lightning, and thunder, and would go for AoE damage and control, while a druid taking on an "Earth-Mother" aspect could have command over earth and plants (and perhaps even decay), and would go more for restorative/buff and control, while a druid taking on a "Horned Hunter" aspect would have command over animals and would go in for close/melee fighting (and close-range control).

With respect to:

I might tweak the 50% number up or down, but I want to emphasize natural balance here. This is similar to WoW's balance druid, but it is mechanically distinct from the Eclipse system they have. The only thing I'm not sure about is how to thematically differentiate between abilities that spend vigor and those that restore it.

(Let me first say I am having a hard time writing 'vigor' since I typically use the British-Canadian spelling of the word. So don't be alarmed if I slip up. :smalltongue:)

Here I would think you could go with one of the two following:
(1) Abilities that expend vigor are powerful offences, requiring exhausting your reserves of primal or personal energy, while abilities that restore vigor are defences or buffs, allowing you to conserve and build up reserves of such energy.
(2) The opposite of (1). Might be harder to fluff, I suppose.

So, for example, a Horned Hunter druid might have a claw attack he can use on multiple enemies simultaneously, which would either require spending vigor or would be augmented by spending vigor. By contrast, he might have an ability which requires giving up an attack, say, to shift out of trouble, which would allow him to accumulate vigor.

That way there can be balance between such things as action/inaction, harm/aid, boost/hinder, attack/defend.

Gnorman

2013-11-14, 02:51 PM

You know, I kind of like the idea of the barbarian being the shapeshifter - it keys into the historical basis of berserker. So, when they go into a rage, they take on animalistic aspects. You could have multiple aspects here to represent the different kind of rages - a barbarian taking on the wolf aspect might gain bonuses for flanking, extra attacks, etc. A barbarian with the bear aspect would gain extra damage reduction, powerful blows. Panther aspect maybe gets sneak attack damage, bleeding effects? Lots of options here.

Animal companion should be limited to the ranger, I think, though certainly the summoner would need some kind of analogue. Perhaps the ranger could focus on traps and ranged combat, thus preserving the "pet" archetype for another class?

I do like the distinction between the shaman and the druid - the shaman focuses on healing and buffing, whereas the druid focuses on elemental damage and control effects.

I might envision the druid, then, as the primal/arcane hybrid, and the shaman as the primal/divine. This does leave something of a hole in the straight primal, but that could be filled by a summoner/packmaster type.

I guess this all kind of begs the question of what, exactly, the identity of the "nature" source is? Is it more than a fluffing of where the power comes from? Are there particular mechanical design spaces that "primal" is intended to fill?

AttilaTheGeek

2013-11-14, 05:51 PM

Here I would think you could go with one of the two following:
(1) Abilities that expend vigor are powerful offences, requiring exhausting your reserves of primal or personal energy, while abilities that restore vigor are defences or buffs, allowing you to conserve and build up reserves of such energy.

I like this distinction; it's what I was originally considering, but I wondered if "offense vs. defense" would feel too arbitrary. It's good to know that it doesn't.

What if we give the totems to the Shaman? That way, the totems can be fluffed as ordinary objects imbued with natural spirits. Ooh, new idea- Druids get similar aspects, but they are the classical elements instead of animals.

{table=head]Class|"schtick"|Archetype 1|Archetype 2|Archetype 3|Archetype 4 role
Shaman|totems|Damage|group buffing|Healing|
Druid|Elemental aspects|Earth (control)|Fire (area damage)|Water (healing)|Air (single-target damage)
Barbarian|Animal aspects|Bear (tanking)|Lion (group buffing)|Tiger (speed, bleed DoTs)[/table]

I'm normally not such a fan of tables, but here I feel like it helps organize ideas.

I guess this all kind of begs the question of what, exactly, the identity of the "nature" source is? Is it more than a fluffing of where the power comes from? Are there particular mechanical design spaces that "primal" is intended to fill?

I don't really know. It doesn't fit a particular mechanical design space the same way guile means "sneaky" and martial means "fightery". That might be why it's more difficult (at least, for me) to come up with ideas.

Gnorman

2013-11-14, 08:31 PM

Here's a bit about each resource, to make sure everyone understands what I'm thinking and can give feedback.

[QUOTE=AttilaTheGeek;16422891]Rage is the martial resource, and Warriors, Swordsages, and Barbarians use rage. It starts at 0, has a max of 10, and increases by 1 every time you deal or take damage. Some abilities also increase rage, and you spend it to do stuff.

Pretty straightforward resource system here, not much to say on the subject. I would suggest some sort of passive benefits for rage, giving combat classes an incentive to build up more of it rather than expending it immediately to do stuff. Could be an interesting tension.

Combo Points (CP) are the guile resource, and Rogues, Tricksters, Swashbucklers, Inquisitors, and Rangers use combo points.Every time you deal sneak attack damage, you gain combo points equal to the number of sneak attack dice rolled. Combo points cap at 6 for everyone and disappear out of combat, so they start at 0. Rogues have one sneak attack die per two levels, rounded up (1, 3, and 5), and Tricksters, Swashbucklers, Inquisitors, and Rangers have one per three levels rounded up (1 and 4). You spend combo points to do stuff.

Still would like to see combo points generated in ways other than sneak attack damage. As it is, combo points highlights the weakness of guile-based classes whenever sneak-attack-immune critters are involved.

Mana is the arcane resource, and Mages, Tricksters, Swordsages, Summoners, and Theurges use Mana. Swordsages have a Mana pool equal to INT mod +1. Tricksters have a Mana pool equal to 2*INT mod + 2. Summoners and Theurges have a Mana pool equal to 3*INT mod +3. Mages have a Mana pool equal to 4*INT mod +4. Most abilities cost between 1 and 3 Mana. Mana normally restores at the beginning of each day, but Swordsages can convert Rage to Mana. While I do like Gnorman's idea for the three different ways to spend mana, I don't think I'll use it. You spend mana to do stuff.

Pretty straightforward here too, no issues here. Swordsage might present a problem as it is the only arcane class with theoretically-unlimited resources.

I would like to see the other resource systems be affected by attributes like Mana. Gives them an incentive to invest in particular attributes.

Holy Power (HoPo) is the divine resource, and Clerics, Paladins, Inquisitors, Theurges, and Druids use Holy Power. Holy Power deteriorates at a rate of one per minute, so it usually starts at 0, and it caps at 4. Some abilities generate Holy Power, and you can spend it to do stuff.

Yeah, Holy Power is a clunky name for it. I don't know that Zeal is better. Maybe Faith? Spirit? I also worry that the deterioration rate is too slow and won't really affect decision-making in any significant way.

More crucially, I don't really see what about this resource system makes it distinct from Rage, other than the generating mechanics and numerical differences. Can you justify why it should be a separate system?

Vigor is the primal resource, and Shamans, Barbarians, Rangers, and Druids use Vigor. Vigor starts at 0 and ranges from -3 to +3. Some abilities increase Vigor, and some decrease it. While Vigor is positive, abilities that spend Vigor are empowered and have all numerical effects increased by 50%. While Vigor is negative, abilities that increase Vigor are empowered instead.

I like Composer99's suggestions on Vigo(u)r here. It contributes to a sort of balanced, ebb-and-flow playstyle for primal classes, which is both thematically appropriate and sufficiently distinct. Whereas other classes reward an accumulate-and-expend mindset (or, in the case of Mana, potentially a nova approach), Vigor might potentially reward having an empty resource pool. That's an interesting design space to me.

AttilaTheGeek

2013-11-14, 09:24 PM

Pretty straightforward resource system here [rage], not much to say on the subject. I would suggest some sort of passive benefits for rage, giving combat classes an incentive to build up more of it rather than expending it immediately to do stuff. Could be an interesting tension.

Ooh, good idea.

Still would like to see combo points generated in ways other than sneak attack damage. As it is, combo points highlights the weakness of guile-based classes whenever sneak-attack-immune critters are involved.

Right, I forgot to mention that skill use in combat should generate combo points. Also, since the Swashbuckler is a frontliner, it'll have some additional way of generating CPs.

Pretty straightforward here too, no issues here. Swordsage might present a problem as it is the only arcane class with theoretically-unlimited resources.

I would like to see the other resource systems be affected by attributes like Mana. Gives them an incentive to invest in particular attributes.

The Theurge and Summoner can convert their mana to and from Holy Power and Vigor respectively; is that what you meant?

Yeah, Holy Power is a clunky name for it. I don't know that Zeal is better. Maybe Faith? Spirit? I also worry that the deterioration rate is too slow and won't really affect decision-making in any significant way.

The deterioration rate is just meant to say "It drops to 0 out of combat, but if you have some left after a combat ends and you start another right after, you might begin with some anyway". I don't want to use Faith, because that implies more about a character's RP. For example, if a Cleric has to say "I can't do that, because I don't have any Faith", that means that their character has no faith in their deity. Saying "I have no Spirit", I think, is a much cleaner, nicer term.

More crucially, I don't really see what about this resource system [Holy Power/Spirit] makes it distinct from Rage, other than the generating mechanics and numerical differences. Can you justify why it should be a separate system?

Because the generating and spending mechanics are different. If you're working with Spirit, you can go out of your way to gain more of it on one turn and spend more on another turn. As long as you're attacking and taking damage, Rage increases by itself, and you only decide how much to spend or not to spend on any given turn.

Also, they have different fluff. Holy Power is divine, whereas Rage is just... you being angry. I think they deserve to be different.

Ajadea

2013-11-14, 10:01 PM

I'm not sure how it would work managing 2 separate resources. I almost want to strip it down such that each 'blended' class draws resources from one half of the tree and skeleton (BAB, saves, proficiencies) from the other. Furthermore resources should all be distinct - as is, I'm seeing no real difference between Rage, Combo, and Holy.

Rage seems like the best thus far. Nothing funky here. Rewards a hard-hitting style as much as tanking, powers up as long as combat proceeds. Favors long and drawn-out battling, but could work for duels just as well as Helm's Deep-style defense. Has nothing for social, but in a fight, these guys come out on top every time. Which is fine.

Rage should deteriorate at a rate of 1/minute outside of combat, in case that wasn't noted earlier. I would like to link the cap to a stat - how about Strength?

I also like Vigor working particularly with Composor's suggestion to create that nice ebb and flow feeling. You can keep going forever - but you must maintain a balance, taking and giving, healing and hurting.

Mana in my opinion is the spend-it-all nova style. Limited amount per day, and when it's gone, that's it. But you'll get it all back tomorrow anyway, so why not blow it now?

Combo points rub me the wrong way for a variety of reasons. May I suggest a new mechanic of Focus, stolen blatantly from psionics.

You may activate Focus as a Move action with some sort of check (a Flat Guile-class level + Intelligence check seems appropriate here, though Concentration could also work). Some abilities are passive and triggered via having the Focused status. Other abilities require the user to expend Focus. There is no points system. You are Focused or you are not.

The lack of points provides a significant alteration to the play style. Do I keep up the passives or lose those for a nice big boost right now? If I am not focused, do I blow a valuable action to get my cool tricks back (Guile classes strike me as the sort of people that appreciate their mobility) or do I keep plugging away?

This brings me to Holy Power. It thus far resembles Rage. I want to change something a little difference, and represent a more long-term view on things. A VERY long-term view.

Thus we get my proposal of Faith. Faith pools are capped at extremely high amounts (Class level x Wisdom or Charisma seems appropriate). Some abilities generate Faith, others cost Faith and quite a bit of it. You may also gain <appropriate stat's modifier> Faith points per day by spending an hour praying/meditating/etc. As long as you have some Faith, you can spend as much as you want in that round within the limits of your actions - but if Faith hits 0 or below, all Faith-based class abilities are lost, including the Faith-generating ones. Prayer/meditation is the only way to regain Faith once this occurs.

Faith never resets (hence the high cap). You do not lose Faith over time. You do not gain Faith simply by waking up in the morning. You build it up over time, through routinely following the doctrines of your deity or your higher cause, and striving to be what you admire and emulate. You CAN go Nova, with devastating results - but you'll spend a long time working to get back to your previous power. Or even trying to get class features again, really.

Faith in this case is an appropriate name, since hitting negative Faith in this model really would represent a crisis of faith in the sense of doubting one's deity/cause.

PairO'Dice Lost

2013-11-14, 10:25 PM

Perhaps if the Shaman resorts to calling upon animistic spirits as her primary shtick; then archetypes let her call upon different kinds of spirits - animal spirits, tree spirits, insect spirits (perhaps these can be dangerous to deal with à la Shadowrun?), ancestor spirits, lares & penates (household "gods"/spirits for more of an "urban" feel), blighted spirits, and perhaps others - or grant her different ways to call upon the spirits (e.g. let them enter her body or even possess her briefly, similar to voudoun).

What if we give the totems to the Shaman? That way, the totems can be fluffed as ordinary objects imbued with natural spirits. Ooh, new idea- Druids get similar aspects, but they are the classical elements instead of animals.

[...]

I'm normally not such a fan of tables, but here I feel like it helps organize ideas.

I like the idea overall, but I think it could use some tweaking so that each class has four archetypes to choose from and there isn't too much overlap. If you might permit me to fill in the gaps:

{table=head]Class|Schtick|Archetype 1|Archetype 2|Archetype 3|Archetype 4 role
Shaman|Spirits|Feral spirits (debuffing)|Ancestor spirits (buffing)|Plant spirits (protection)|Place spirits (mobility)
Druid|Elemental aspects|Earth (control)|Fire (area damage)|Water (healing)|Air (single-target damage)
Barbarian|Animal aspects|Bear (tanking)|Wolf (teamwork)|Serpent (stealth)|Eagle (speed)[/table]

For the shaman, feral spirits are primitive spirits of hatred, anger, instinct, etc.; you can direct them to curse people, burn or shatter thing with your anger, and so forth. Ancestor spirits are spirits of the departed; you can channel them to borrow their long experience in combat, tracking, etc. Plant spirits are the life forces of massive trees and other ancient plants; you can draw upon them to heal yourself, help yourself stand your ground, etc. Place spirits are the local spirits of wherever you happen to be; you can call on them them to hide your tracks, help you climb or swim around, etc.

For the barbarian, I'd say thinking of it as having an explicit teamwork focus (like the marshal or a White Raven warblade) as opposed to a generic buffing focus is better, since (A) that steps on the shaman's toes less and (A) "teamwork" would include such warrior-like things as action manipulation, team tactics, maneuvering, and such and not as much bard-like number manipulation.

I don't really know. It doesn't fit a particular mechanical design space the same way guile means "sneaky" and martial means "fightery". That might be why it's more difficult (at least, for me) to come up with ideas.

Guile and martial don't just mean "hiding from things" and "hitting things with swords," any more than arcane and divine just mean "blasting things" and "healing things," respectively. Guile includes deception, luck, improvisation, and versatility, and martial includes warfare, endurance, resilience, and persistence.

If I were to sum up the mechanical style of each of those four in a word, they would be thus:
Guile classes avoid--avoid detection, avoid traps, avoid attacks--so they're tricky and manipulative. They do best when no one knows what they can do and worst when under time or space pressure. If they have to actively engage obstacles, they do it in a way that plays to their strengths by dodging around until they can strike at an opponent's weak point.
Martial classes assault--face people head-on, power through walls, take the fight to the target--so they're enduring and tough. They do best when they can go on the offensive and worst when enemies can keep them far enough away. If they can't directly approach obstacles, they still rely on their inherent power to endure the challenge until they can go on the offensive again.
Arcane classes out-think--analyze people's actions, solve puzzles, set up traps for opponents--so they're specialized and knowledgeable. They do best when they can come up with multiple plans for approaching a problem and worst when caught by surprise. While they do have brute-force magic, use of that magic still requires plenty of thinking, for good AoE placement and so forth.
Divine classes undo--break enchantments, remove conditions, ward their allies--so they're defensive and methodical. They do best when things are going at a steady pace and worst when they have too many issues to deal with at once. While they do have proactive magic, said magic is mostly used to cut down on the issues they will need to break, reverse, heal, or restore later.
Obviously that's a generalization (you don't have to be a roguish class to sneak around and evade things, non-arcanists can still out-think things, and divine casters have gotten a lot more blast-y and offensive since AD&D), but those are the main strategies that the classes' themes and mechanics revolve around.

So if I were to come up with something similar for primal classes to help generate abilities, it would be thus: Primal classes borrow--barter with spirits for information, use the terrain, smite with storms and earthquakes--so they're focused and reactive. They do best when they have the home team advantage and worst when they're out of their element. Though they have consistent power of their own, it often relies on certain environments or situations to be used to best effect.

Gnorman

2013-11-15, 12:40 AM

This brings me to Holy Power. It thus far resembles Rage. I want to change something a little difference, and represent a more long-term view on things. A VERY long-term view.

Thus we get my proposal of Faith. Faith pools are capped at extremely high amounts (Class level x Wisdom or Charisma seems appropriate). Some abilities generate Faith, others cost Faith and quite a bit of it. You may also gain <appropriate stat's modifier> Faith points per day by spending an hour praying/meditating/etc. As long as you have some Faith, you can spend as much as you want in that round within the limits of your actions - but if Faith hits 0 or below, all Faith-based class abilities are lost, including the Faith-generating ones. Prayer/meditation is the only way to regain Faith once this occurs.

Faith never resets (hence the high cap). You do not lose Faith over time. You do not gain Faith simply by waking up in the morning. You build it up over time, through routinely following the doctrines of your deity or your higher cause, and striving to be what you admire and emulate. You CAN go Nova, with devastating results - but you'll spend a long time working to get back to your previous power. Or even trying to get class features again, really.

Faith in this case is an appropriate name, since hitting negative Faith in this model really would represent a crisis of faith in the sense of doubting one's deity/cause.

From a logical perspective, why would bringing about an awesome display of your god's might (i.e. nova-ing) suddenly cause you to have a crisis of faith?

I can't support this system because I don't like tying class resources to roleplay. While I agree with your contention that Spirit needs to be differentiated more from Rage, I don't agree that this is the way to do it.

What if Spirit operated on a more random basis? The gods are fickle creatures, etc, and prayers are not always heard. Perhaps you roll a single die (d4, maybe) at the beginning of each round, and that's your Spirit pool for the round. Certain actions might give you a bonus to the die roll for the next round.

Having resources based on luck might be more appropriate for the guile classes, though. Just throwing out some ideas.

snip

This is all just brilliant.

Ajadea

2013-11-15, 01:54 AM

AttilaTheGeek

2013-11-15, 09:44 AM

Fundamentally Faith is a cross between Mana (a smaller daily regen through prep) and Rage (regain based on doing a specific action repeatedly, specifics dictated by your class) that rewards long-term planning and moderation because unlike the others, it does not automatically reset itself to a fixed amount on a daily basis.

Everything else is fluff on the top, and as far as crunch goes, absolutely meaningless.

You could switch the name to Spirit. Running out of Spirit thus represents the fact the gods did you a big favor. And they aren't about to be doing you another big favor any time soon, because gods don't work like that.
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However, I think the Spirit-as-random-chance works better as a mechanic. The gods smiled on you and listened to your prayers.

(emphasis mine) I came up with a similar idea that blends long-term resource management and random chance. It's called Divinity, and it represents the amount of favor you have with your god. Divinity does not automatically restore or deteriorate at all, but it is increased when you do things your deity likes and it is decreased when you request divine intervention. It's restored by a semi-random amount dependent on level by praying, and it can also be restored for destroying enemies of the faith, converting others, or even performing sacraments. It's spent when you request action from your god in the form of healing, buffing, or the like. That way, it keeps the random restore aspect, but it also emphasizes the fact that divine characters are really calling their power from a higher being.

Numbers-wise, I think it should be capped at WIS mod*level for some divine classes, 2*WIS mod*level for others, and 4*WIS mod*level for Clerics. A daily hour of prayer restores Xd(2+2*level), so Xd4 at 1st, Xd6 at 2nd, up to Xd12 at 6th, where X is 1 for some classes, 2 for others, and 4 for Clerics. It's intentional that the percentage of your Divinity restored by an hour of prayer decreases as you level, because even high-level Clerics have to pray more to be able to consistently work miracles.

I've got to go at the moment, but I wanted to put this up and get reactions to it.

Gnorman

2013-11-15, 10:56 AM

(emphasis mine) I came up with a similar idea that blends long-term resource management and random chance. It's called Divinity, and it represents the amount of favor you have with your god. Divinity does not automatically restore or deteriorate at all, but it is increased when you do things your deity likes and it is decreased when you request divine intervention. It's restored by a semi-random amount dependent on level by praying, and it can also be restored for destroying enemies of the faith, converting others, or even performing sacraments. It's spent when you request action from your god in the form of healing, buffing, or the like. That way, it keeps the random restore aspect, but it also emphasizes the fact that divine characters are really calling their power from a higher being.

Numbers-wise, I think it should be capped at WIS mod*level for some divine classes, 2*WIS mod*level for others, and 4*WIS mod*level for Clerics. A daily hour of prayer restores Xd(2+2*level), so Xd4 at 1st, Xd6 at 2nd, up to Xd12 at 6th, where X is 1 for some classes, 2 for others, and 4 for Clerics. It's intentional that the percentage of your Divinity restored by an hour of prayer decreases as you level, because even high-level Clerics have to pray more to be able to consistently work miracles.

I've got to go at the moment, but I wanted to put this up and get reactions to it.

On principle, I get what you're trying to do here. It's an improvement, to be certain. But I think it's a bit mathematically clunky and I continue to dislike class resource mechanics that are tied to roleplay.

Ajadea

2013-11-15, 12:27 PM

D-naras

2013-11-15, 01:01 PM

Composer99

2013-11-15, 01:06 PM

On principle, I get what you're trying to do here. It's an improvement, to be certain. But I think it's a bit mathematically clunky and I continue to dislike class resource mechanics that are tied to roleplay.

Since a cleric of a deity receives power either by being a particularly devout worshipper/follower of that deity or by a sort of contract ("the CLERIC agrees to serve the will of DEITY in exchange for POWER"), I don't see how it's inappropriate from either a "crunch" or "fluff" perspective.

A cleric who receives power from another source might have some more leeway, but I would still expect that part of "the deal" is that the cleric's power comes as a consequence of being willing to further the aims (as it were) of the source.

I would say each domain should have an action, consistent with the domain's theme, a cleric can take that boosts or restores divine power resources, in addition to the suggestions made by Ajadea, and the suggestion that the divine power daily resource is (partly) regenerated by spending some time in prayer (or communion or meditation) each day.

Composer99

2013-11-15, 01:21 PM

How's this?:
Each divine class has a Faith rating based on level. Divine spells and abilities involve a roll based on the level of the ability. If you roll under your Faith the ability goes off without a problem. If you roll above your Faith you may choose to suffer an effect, damage, ability penalties, status effects or something and still manifest the power. Kinda like a manifestation of divine stigma. The more Faith you have, the easier you can perform your miracles. And it is different than the other power sources without being an expendable resource.

An interesting concept.

Say you tie this concept in to what I thought up about domains?

So, for example, a cleric with the Death domain gets a temporary bonus to her Faith rating if she kills a creature, making it easier for her to use her divine abilities for the next little while.

Or a cleric with the War domain who is using a divine ability that, say, causes hit point damage, gets a bonus to his Faith rating for the purpose of making his faith check to use this ability.

Then, if you're doing something that isn't really in keeping with your domains/deity/power source you can still get it done (if necessary, by taking on the stigmata), but doing stuff in keeping with your domains/deity/power source is easier.

To avoid a dangerous nerf, you would want to have two (or more?) tiers of Cleric powers:
- "orisons" which do not require a Faith check
- "prayers" which do
- (optionally, ) "miracles" which not only require a Faith check but also impose a penalty to the Faith rating - these could be limited to one successful miracle per day

The last could be something like the cleric asking his or her divine patron for an extra special favour. Not sure I'd want to include it in an E6 game, though.

Gnorman

2013-11-15, 02:05 PM

I would agree on the 'mathematically clunky' aspect of things. But every divine class receives some sort of intervention by getting the favor of the gods. So they've got to get the favor.

Do it like this?
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Divinity is never gained or lost naturally. The cap for Divinity is 2 x Class Level x Wisdom Modifier. Divinity may be randomly generated instead by use of certain class features, and is lost to use others. Xd4 divinity may also be regenerated through 1 hour of prayer and meditation, where X is (Divine Class Level/2, minimum 1)
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'1 hour of prayer and meditation' is no more RP than forcing wizards in D&D to spend an hour preparing from their spellbook. It's a daily resource regeneration mechanic.

One might restore Divinity through actions like this:
A good Cleric gains 1d4 Divinity when they use Channel Energy to heal.
An evil Cleric gains 1d4 Divinity when they use Channel Energy to harm.
A neutral Cleric may choose either mode of regeneration - once chosen, this cannot be changed.
An example of what they might spend Divinity on is to dispel a curse.

Oh, I don't have any problem with the hour of prayer and meditation - that's just, as you say, akin to a wizard preparing his spellbook. I don't like gaining faith through the other proposed methods - smiting enemies of the faith, performing sacraments, etc. I feel that it disadvantages clerics who perhaps do not put a priority on smiting or converting. Not to mention the whole "clerics of causes or concepts" issue, but that's a bit of a tangent. Basically, I just want a system where all clerics are on equal footing, resource-generation-wise, regardless of how they choose to express the tenets of their faith. That requires one of two options (or both!): (1) separate methods of resource generation that jive with each individual deity or concept's domain, or (2) a fluff-free resource-generation mechanic.

Another option might be to reward clerics with divinity when they do certain things as required by their role, rather than their deity - if clerics undo, then they should be rewarded for performing actions that fall along those lines. But then you run into a bit of a Catch-22 if you can only generate resources to fuel your abilities by using your abilities, so we definitely do need an independent resource generation mechanic.

How's this?:
Each divine class has a Faith rating based on level. Divine spells and abilities involve a roll based on the level of the ability. If you roll under your Faith the ability goes off without a problem. If you roll above your Faith you may choose to suffer an effect, damage, ability penalties, status effects or something and still manifest the power. Kinda like a manifestation of divine stigma. The more Faith you have, the easier you can perform your miracles. And it is different than the other power sources without being an expendable resource.

You know, I like the "pay a price" angle here too - if we're viewing clerical magic as a divine contract, it makes sense. Some clerics might play it safe, while others might risk a high price for a more miraculous effect.

Since a cleric of a deity receives power either by being a particularly devout worshipper/follower of that deity or by a sort of contract ("the CLERIC agrees to serve the will of DEITY in exchange for POWER"), I don't see how it's inappropriate from either a "crunch" or "fluff" perspective.

A cleric who receives power from another source might have some more leeway, but I would still expect that part of "the deal" is that the cleric's power comes as a consequence of being willing to further the aims (as it were) of the source.

I would say each domain should have an action, consistent with the domain's theme, a cleric can take that boosts or restores divine power resources, in addition to the suggestions made by Ajadea, and the suggestion that the divine power daily resource is (partly) regenerated by spending some time in prayer (or communion or meditation) each day.

It's entirely appropriate from a fluff perspective. I just don't think that fluff should dictate mechanics. Informing them is okay.

An interesting concept.

Say you tie this concept in to what I thought up about domains?

So, for example, a cleric with the Death domain gets a temporary bonus to her Faith rating if she kills a creature, making it easier for her to use her divine abilities for the next little while.

Or a cleric with the War domain who is using a divine ability that, say, causes hit point damage, gets a bonus to his Faith rating for the purpose of making his faith check to use this ability.

Then, if you're doing something that isn't really in keeping with your domains/deity/power source you can still get it done (if necessary, by taking on the stigmata), but doing stuff in keeping with your domains/deity/power source is easier.

To avoid a dangerous nerf, you would want to have two (or more?) tiers of Cleric powers:
- "orisons" which do not require a Faith check
- "prayers" which do
- (optionally, ) "miracles" which not only require a Faith check but also impose a penalty to the Faith rating - these could be limited to one successful miracle per day

The last could be something like the cleric asking his or her divine patron for an extra special favour. Not sure I'd want to include it in an E6 game, though.

The domain idea is a good one, and would help enforce the difference between a cleric of a war deity and a cleric of a healing deity, etc. You could broadly sort these into deities of Stasis (who generate divinity by negating enemy actions, healing damage and ailments, defending allies) and deities of Change (who generate divinity by causing damage, debuffing, etc). A bit less "good and evil" but still sort of represents the dichotomy of negative/positive energy.

Ajadea

2013-11-15, 04:35 PM

Gnorman

2013-11-15, 06:01 PM

I'm going to step away from this particular aspect for now, as it seems that other people have better ideas.

Instead, I'm going to go a little more into individual classes.

I personally feel that having multiple energy sources in a single class is very clunky and that very little is gained from making hybrid players manage multiple resources. I propose that each class instead draws from 1 specific energy source. We've got 15 classes, and 5 energy sources. So each energy source has 3 classes that draw from it - the pure class and 2 of the hybrids.

And just throw on four different archetypes for every class.

Something like this:
Rage: Warrior, Swordsage (fuels spells through Rage), Barbarian (Rage boosts their animalistic aspects)
Focus: Rogue, Swashbuckler (Focus leads to combat boosts), Ranger (expend Focus to use primal powers)
Vigor: Shaman, Druid (I like the idea of the Druid being limited by the balance mechanic, easily distinguishing of it from Cleric), Summoner (I'll freely admit this one ended up here just for equality's sake)
Mana: Mage, Trickster (casts Illusions/Utility/Charms), Theurge (I'd say give it Abjuration, Divination, Necromancy, and Healing)
Divinity/Spirit/Whatever: Cleric, Paladin (Divinity boosts saves, smiting), Inquisitor (Divinity boosts stealth, mobility, Sneak Attack)

I'd like to second this, both in terms of the underlying concept and the specific divisions. It makes a lot of intuitive sense to me. Mage, Trickster, Theurge, for example, totally jives with how I see the natural divisions of mages. The Mage is the warmage, blasting with elemental energy and buffing his allies. The Trickster is the beguiler, controlling foes with illusions and sowing chaos among the ranks of his enemies. The Theurge is the necromancer (looking at the overlap between wizard and cleric spells, most of them tend to be necromantic or conjurative in origin), dealing primarily in summoning undead and foul creatures to serve as minions with a side gig in cursing and debuffing opponents. Three very different roles, nevertheless fulfilled through the same overarching method of standing back from the action and lobbing "artillery" (be that a fireball, a charm spell, or a ray of dark energy).

The other classes:

Rage: I see the Warrior as a sort of Warlord type, specializing in leading his foes and controlling his enemies. Likely to be the most defensively-oriented of the three. The Swordsage is the mobile threat, who uses his magic to move quickly around the battlefield to shut down the highest threat. The Barbarian is the offensive powerhouse, buoyed by spirits of rage and endurance.

Focus: The ranger is, appropriately enough, the ranged expert, a skirmisher who lays down traps to limit their foes' movement and snipes them from afar. I have a bit of trouble differentiating the Rogue and the Swashbuckler, though. The Rogue seems to rely on stealth to set up high-damage attacks and then fade, whereas the Swashbuckler probably is better served by staying in the fray and letting her abilities to dodge and weave through foes keep her safe. Focus classes definitely seem to excel when facing single targets.

Divinity: Cleric and Paladin are pretty well-defined already. The Inquisitor puzzles me, because I still don't see the natural intersection between divine and stealth mechanics.

Vigor: Besides preferring "Balance" for the resource name, there's not enough here to really work with. Shaman seems to be the healer, Druid might be the blaster, and the Summoner the controller, but the biggest challenge is going to make them both distinct from one another and from their counterparts in Mana and Divinity.

D-naras

2013-11-15, 06:21 PM

Focus: .. Focus classes definitely seem to excel when facing single targets.

...

You could say this about their fighting:
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they focus it :smallcool:
I am sorry.

AttilaTheGeek

2013-11-15, 06:30 PM

Focus: The ranger is, appropriately enough, the ranged expert, a skirmisher who lays down traps to limit their foes' movement and snipes them from afar. I have a bit of trouble differentiating the Rogue and the Swashbuckler, though. The Rogue seems to rely on stealth to set up high-damage attacks and then fade, whereas the Swashbuckler probably is better served by staying in the fray and letting her abilities to dodge and weave through foes keep her safe. Focus classes definitely seem to excel when facing single targets.

I see a similar distinction between the Rogue and the Swashbuckler. The rogue is much more mobile and relies on teleport effects as well as stuns to deliver high single-target burst damage. The Swashbuckler, on the other hand, is your classic "glass cannon" melee class, with an emphasis on mobility.

However, one thing I'm not sure about is Focus. I hadn't brought it up before because the conversation was still on the topic of the Divine resource, but I'm uncomfortable with the idea of an entirely binary resource. I feel like there's not enough interesting resource management when the resource is just a one or a zero.

I do have one alternate preposition, which I think you'll like. Combo Points again, but with a new twist: Combo Points disappear at the end of your turn. You're literally building a combo within a six-second space, and Focus characters will have to pay close attention to how they spend every action. I'm in favor of this because the Guile classes are all fast, with a heavy emphasis on mobility and speed, and short-term resource management emphasizes that. Also, no other resource is managed over the course of a round; Rage and Vigor are over encounters, Mana is over a day, and Divinity over the course of days or weeks. For example, a combo could be a beat (swift action) to get an opponent's blade out of the way, a feint (move action) to throw them off guard, and a strike (standard action) to deliver a blow.

Divinity: Cleric and Paladin are pretty well-defined already. The Inquisitor puzzles me, because I still don't see the natural intersection between divine and stealth mechanics.

Neither do I, but we can't really say "A class for every energy source combination... except divine/guile".

Vigor: Besides preferring "Balance" for the resource name, there's not enough here to really work with. Shaman seems to be the healer, Druid might be the blaster, and the Summoner the controller, but the biggest challenge is going to make them both distinct from one another and from their counterparts in Mana and Divinity.

I dunno, I think it sounds strange to say "I have negative three balance" or "I have two balance". Then again, "I have negative three vigo(u)r" isn't much better.

One last thing- I want Mana to be based off INT (pool size), Divinity off WIS (max amount), and whatever we name the Primal resource to key off CHA. I imagine your Vigor (or whatever) total can go from negative Charisma modifier to positive Charisma modifier. Rage, on the other hand, is capped at ten, and the Guile resource hasn't been completely decided yet. That should differentiate the resources a little bit more.

Ajadea

2013-11-15, 07:30 PM

Personally, I like Focus as binary partially BECAUSE not everyone wants to keep track of more than a binary. And there are options, even within said binary.

If one has no Focus
- spend an action (Guile classes like their actions, and probably can do quite a lot with a single move action) to try and gain Focus
- Keep the action, but have no Focus and thus be unable to use class features.
If one has Focus
- Keep the Focus for a minor static bonus, possibly allowing the use of certain class features. Ex: A Ranger can balance on the thinnest tree branch, a Rogue can feint as a swift action, a Swashbuckler can use AoOs to parry blows - all only while focused.
- Spend Focus for a large, likely supernatural in appearance, one-time bonus. A Ranger may heal an ally, a Rogue may fade into invisibility, a Swashbuckler may be able to bluff an entire room full of people into running. But now you have no Focus, and the cycle starts again.
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Also as far as roles go:

The Rogue to me is explicitly stealth-oriented, acrobatic, and skirmishing-oriented. Moving in and out, debuffs via poisons/crippling strikes, quasi-invisibility, wall-climbing, sprinting down a clothesline.

The Swashbuckler is very single-target with a touch of battlefield control. Cutting your mobility and forcing you to fight on his terms (i.e. in melee), parrying your blows, high precision damage. May also step into Warrior territory through morale effects, especially intimidating opponents.

Every Vigor/Balance class has two opposite and complementary skillsets, and are forced to use both due to the mechanics of their power source.
The Shaman grants buffs and debuffs, plus some divination (seeing the future and the past, courtesy of the ancestors) and maybe a touch of temporary necromancy on one archetype's capstone.
The Druid uses area blasting on one side and control/healing on the other. I would say to differentiate the Druid from the other classes, it explicitly does not buff or debuff. It's all about the raw elemental power over here.
The Summoner's power is vested in beatsticking by proxy - through minions, through their Eidolon, through their allies in a pinch. They should actually be fairly unique. The Summoner is THE minionmancer, and even the necromantic Theurge lacks a single powerful minion in this manner.

The Summoner and Shaman both in this model have overlap with the Theurge. Deal with that by shifting the Theurge away from direct minionmancy - let the theurge's core feature be counterspelling, shielding, plus assortment of necromantic blasting/control and healing, leaving explicit undead minionmancy for an archetype.

The Inquisitor is a tricky one. Divine classes undo. Let's give this one a unique role and make it explicitly Counteraction. The Inquisitor tears down your buffs and your wards, pierces your illusions, is not scared by your showboating, and turns your own strength against you.

AttilaTheGeek

2013-11-16, 12:54 AM

Personally, I like Focus as binary partially BECAUSE not everyone wants to keep track of more than a binary. And there are options, even within said binary.

If one has no Focus
- spend an action (Guile classes like their actions, and probably can do quite a lot with a single move action) to try and gain Focus
- Keep the action, but have no Focus and thus be unable to use class features.
If one has Focus
- Keep the Focus for a minor static bonus, possibly allowing the use of certain class features. Ex: A Ranger can balance on the thinnest tree branch, a Rogue can feint as a swift action, a Swashbuckler can use AoOs to parry blows - all only while focused.
- Spend Focus for a large, likely supernatural in appearance, one-time bonus. A Ranger may heal an ally, a Rogue may fade into invisibility, a Swashbuckler may be able to bluff an entire room full of people into running. But now you have no Focus, and the cycle starts again.

I do like focus, especially as it's described here, I'm just don't think the set of people who only want to manage only a binary and the set of people who want to play guile characters are the same. We could give both Focus and CP, and have Guile characters work with both of those, but I don't know how well they'd work together.

I don't want to forcibly drag the conversation back to the Divine resource, but I just had another idea that combines everything that's been said with the failure chance principle presented here.

How's this?:
Each divine class has a Faith rating based on level. Divine spells and abilities involve a roll based on the level of the ability. If you roll under your Faith the ability goes off without a problem. If you roll above your Faith you may choose to suffer an effect, damage, ability penalties, status effects or something and still manifest the power. Kinda like a manifestation of divine stigma. The more Faith you have, the easier you can perform your miracles. And it is different than the other power sources without being an expendable resource.

It could be called Favor, because it measures the amount of favor you have with your god, but Divinity works just as well. As has been said, the pool size caps at 2*WIS mod*class level and daily prayer restores some semi-random amount. However, the change is here: whenever you spend Favor to request divine intervention, it has a chance to fail, especially if you request a powerful miracle with little Favor. If the amount of Favor that would be spent on an ability multiplied by a die roll is less than your Favor total (before spending), then the ability functions. However, if it is greater than your Favor total, you must suffer a Stigmata to ensure the miracle functions, as determined by your domain.

The die roll is 1dX, where X is dependent on class, and a smaller die is better. A Cleric rolls 1d4, so a Cleric could use up to 1/4 of their Favor on a single miracle without any failure chance at all. An Inquisitor might roll 1d8, showing that they have a failure chance whenever they use more than 1/8 of their Favor on a single ability. When I say "stigmata is determined by domain", I mean someone with the Law domain might have to give up an action, whereas someone with the War domain might have to lose hit points and someone with the Death domain might take a large penalty to Fortitude saves.

AttilaTheGeek

2013-11-17, 09:19 AM

I do like focus, especially as it's described here, I'm just don't think the set of people who only want to manage only a binary and the set of people who want to play guile characters are the same. We could give both Focus and CP, and have Guile characters work with both of those, but I don't know how well they'd work together.

Update: I just realized that building combo points over the course of a round would force a player to check in with the DM multiple times every turn, which would really slow down gameplay, especially for PbPs. Focus it is!

I'll start writing out one of the classes in its entirety today. I think I'll start with the Warrior, because it's the most simple and well-defined.

iTookUrNick

2013-11-17, 10:13 AM

I just wanted to say that I like what I'm seeing here. I agree with many design points you have made, and the mention of the 3 different uses for mana points really struck home. Keep it up! :smallbiggrin:

AttilaTheGeek

2013-11-17, 11:01 AM

Ajadea

2013-11-17, 01:16 PM

Trying to organize everything that's been said into a giant table for ease of remembrance, if not perusal.

{table=head]Class|Resource|Style(s)|Shtick|Archetype 1|Archetype 2|Archetype 3|Archetype 4
Warrior|Rage|Martial|Melee combat|Shield (Tanking, sword & board)|Sword (raw damage, two-handing)|Bow(archery, agility)|Horn(leadership, party buffing)
Barbarian|Rage|Martial/Primal|Shapeshifting|Bear (tanking)|Wolf (teamwork)|Serpent (stealth/poison)|Eagle (speed)
Swordsage|Rage|Martial/Arcane|||||
Rogue|Focus|Guile|Sneak Attack|Thug (Burst damage)|Assassin (immobilization, poison)|Acrobat (mobility)|Shadow (stealth/quasimagical)
Swashbuckler|Focus|Guile/Martial|Bleed Damage|||||
Ranger|Focus|Guile/Primal||Archery|Animal Companion|Traps|Healing
Mage|Mana|Arcane|Blasting|||||
Trickster|Mana|Arcane/Guile|Illusions and charms|||||
Theurge|Mana|Arcane/Divine|Abjuration and necromancy||||
Cleric|Divine Resource|Divine|Buffing||||
Paladin|Divine Resource|Divine/Martial|Smiting Evil||||
Inquisitor|Divine Resource|Divine/Guile|Countering/Dispelling|||||
Shaman|Vigor|Primal|Spirit Companion|Feral (debuffing)|Ancestral (buffing)|Nature (protection)|Local (mobility/stealth buffs)
Druid|Vigor|Primal/Arcane|Elemental Magic|Earth (control)|Fire (area damage)|Water (healing)|Air (single-target damage)
Summoner|Vigor|Primal/Divine|Eidolon||||[/table]

Italicized things are the ones I'm unsure of. Most notably, I swapped Druid and Summoner's secondary styles - Druid thus far seems to be oriented much more towards phenomenal cosmic natural power, which bears more similarity towards arcane, while Summoner is explicitly asking another (their Eidolon) for assistance, which more closely resembles divine magic.

I am aware that in D&D/PF, Druid is Divine and Summoner is Arcane. But why let their decisions get in the way of ours?

AttilaTheGeek

2013-11-17, 01:58 PM

Italicized things are the ones I'm unsure of. Most notably, I swapped Druid and Summoner's secondary styles - Druid thus far seems to be oriented much more towards phenomenal cosmic natural power, which bears more similarity towards arcane, while Summoner is explicitly asking another (their Eidolon) for assistance, which more closely resembles divine magic.

I am aware that in D&D/PF, Druid is Divine and Summoner is Arcane. But why let their decisions get in the way of ours?

I originally made the Summoner arcane because I envisioned the eidolon as an animal companion that had been warped and altered by arcane magic. However, if it's going to actually be doing a lot of summoning, it makes sense for it to be divine and summon good/evil creatures. Thanks for the table, by the way. It's a huge help!

There's one final universal constant I'd like to suggest: Specialization. At level one you pick a specialization, and the specialization abilities are something that someone of every role should have but that shouldn't be super easy to get. For example, all tanking Warriors should be able to spend Rage to reduce or negate damage, but not every Warrior should be able to do just by taking the first tanking archetype power. Specializations should, I think, replace the first-level universal class feature.

Also, each archetype specialization can be a way to spend that class's resource that works well for that archetype. If there were no specializations, then every first-level archetype power would have to be a way to spend that class's resource, and if that wasn't the case, then there could be characters at first level that don't have anything to spend their resource on.

I'm also considering making an archetype's abilities only go up to four instead of six, so you have to branch out a little bit.

AttilaTheGeek

2013-11-17, 04:07 PM

Here's the full draft of a class. I'd prefer comments on the mechanics themselves rather than on the numbers, because numbers can be tweaked easily and it is more difficult to do so with mechanics. It's nowhere near finished, but I figured I should continue with the spirit of the thread and put up what I have. I'll edit in more class features later.

Warrior
Hit die: 2d10 (not a typo)
Skill points: 4+INT
Skill list: Something decent-sized
{table=head]Level|Class Features
1|Rage, Specialization, Archetype Ability
2|Tier 2 Talent, Archetype Ability
3|Bonus Feat, Archetype Ability
4|Tier 4 Talent, Archetype Ability
5|Unified Feature, Archetype Ability
6|Tier 6 Talent, Archetype Ability[/table]

Weapon and Armor proficiencies: All simple and martial weapons, all armor, and all shields except tower shields (But see the Protection, Fury, and Agility specializations)

Rage: Rage is the Warrior's resource. Every time you deal or take damage, you gain one Rage, to a maximum of ten. Rage can be spent on abilities, but you also gain a bonus on all damage rolls equal to half your Rage.

Power Attack (Ex): At 1st level, whenever you make an attack, you can choose to take a penalty on the attack roll equal to your Rage. If you do, you gain a bonus on the damage roll equal to your Rage.

Archetype Abilities (Sp, Su, or Ex): At each level, choose an archetype ability to learn. Each of an archetype's abilities has all previous abilities of that archetype as a prerequisite; for example, you cannot take the second Protection archetype ability without having previously learned the first. You can retrain any number of archetype abilities by spending 20 hours training over a period of no more than one week with a Warrior of your level or higher who knows the archetype abilities you are learning.

You have a permanent 25% chance to negate incoming critical hits per Protection archetype ability you have learned. You also gain an additional two hit points per level for each Protection archetype ability you have learned.

Level 1: Revenge (Ex): Whenever you take damage from an enemy's attack, you can spend any amount of Rage. You reduce the damage by the amount of Rage spent. If you attack that enemy on your next turn and hit, add the amount of Rage spent to your damage roll.

Level 2: Taunt (Ex): By spending 1 Rage as an immediate action, you can taunt a nearby enemy that can see and hear you with a creative insult. The enemy makes a Will save at a DC equal to 10 + the number of Protection archetype abilities you have learned + your Strength modifier. If they fail, they move towards you and attempt to attack you in melee at the beginning of their next turn.

Level 3: Intervention (Ex): Whenever an enemy attacks an ally within a distance from you equal to your move speed, you can spend 2 Rage as an immediate action. If you do, you move immediately into that ally's space (this movement provokes attacks of opportunity as normal) and take the attack for them. It is rolled against your AC (or Touch AC, if applicable), and you take damage if it hits. After the attack is resolved, the ally can take a five-foot step that does not count towards their actions for the turn.

Level 4: Embittered Rage (Ex): Whenever an ally within 30 feet takes damage, you gain one Rage. You also become immune to critical hits, but not sneak attack or other forms of precision damage.

Level 5: Mass Taunt (Ex): Your Taunt ability can now affect up to five targets.

Level 6: Threatening Presence (Ex): Whenever an enemy attempts to move away from you (whether with a five-foot step, a move action, or magic), they must make a Will save at a DC equal to the damage you've dealt to them in the last round. If they fail, they spend the action cowering in fear of you instead of moving away. Their other actions are not affected.

Whenever you deal damage with an attack, that damage is increased by 1 per Fury archetype ability you have learned.

Level 1: Deep Wounds (Ex): Whenever you deal damage to an enemy with an attack, you can spend 3-4 Rage. If you do, at the beginning of your next turn for the next three rounds, the enemy takes damage equal to your Strength modifier. This damage restores your Rage as normal and is multiplied by your weapon's critical hit multiplier on a critical hit. This damage stacks with itself if you use this ability more than once and resets its duration every time you do so, but can only grant you Rage once per turn.

Level 2: Knockdown (Ex): Whenever you deal damage to an enemy with an attack, you can spend 3 Rage. If you do, make a Bull Rush attempt against that enemy, but substitute your damage for your d20 roll. If you succeed, the enemy is knocked prone, not pushed back.

Level 3: Execution (Ex): By spending 4-6 Rage as a full-round action, you can make a single attack that does not benefit from bonus damage because of your Rage. This attack cannot be a Power Attack, and you cannot apply Deep Wounds, Knockdown, or any other attack abilities to it. However, if it hits, its damage is equal to one-third of the hit points its target is missing. Your Strength modifier does not apply. For example, if the target has 40 hit points remaining out of 100, then it is missing 60 hit points and therefore an Execution would deal 20 damage. Execution bypasses all damage reduction and stops all regeneration for one turn.

Level 4: Oath of Destruction (Ex): You can swear destruction upon an enemy, reveling in their imminent death. Doing so is a free action. When you do so, you lose all Rage. However, you gain 1 Rage whenever they take damage and gain an additional 2 Rage whenever they take damage from you. While you have an Oath of Destruction active, you no longer gain Rage when you deal damage to other targets, but still gain Rage when you take damage. An Oath expires when its target dies or when you go more than one round without dealing damage to them.

Level 5: Cleaving Attack (Ex and Su): Whenever you hit with a melee attack, you can spend 2 Rage as a free action, which is an extraordinary ability. If you do, you can make an attack with the same attack bonus but with a -3 penalty (so doing so multiple times gives a stacking -3 penalty each time) against another enemy adjacent to you.

Also, whenever you hit with a ranged attack, you can spend 2 Rage as a free action, which is a supernatural ability. If you do, your arrow continues flying through its first target and into another. You can make another attack with the same attack bonus but with a -3 penalty (so doing so multiple times gives a stacking -3 penalty each time) against another enemy within range of the first.

Level 6: Hammer the Gap (Ex): Whenever you successfully deal damage to an enemy with an attack, you can spend 4 rage to push them five feet backwards. This movement does not provoke attacks of opportunity. If you do, you can make another attack against them. Instead, or in addition, you can take a free five-foot step towards them.

Your land speed is permanently increased by 5 feet per Agility archetype ability you have learned.

Level 1: Evasive Mobility (Ex): By spending 1 Rage as a swift action, you no longer provoke attacks of opportunity for firing ranged weapons this round. Also, you can add your Dexterity modifier to damage with ranged weapons and to attack and damage with one-handed weapons this turn. Finally, you can take a five-foot step that does not count against your actions for the turn.

Level 2: Sudden Shot (Ex): If you are taking a standard or full-round action to attack with a ranged weapon, as a free action you can spend 3 rage to make an additional attack at your highest base attack bonus. If you are making a standard or full-round action to attack with a melee or thrown weapon, you instead make an additional attack with a one-handed or thrown weapon at your highest base attack bonus.

Level 3: Burst of Speed (Ex): By spending 3 Rage as a swift action, you can increase your speed for one round. You gain a +30 foot bonus to your movement speed (or a +20 foot bonus if you are wearing heavy armor) and your movement does not provoke attacks of opportunity this turn. You also receive a +2 bonus to attack rolls and reflex saves and a +2 dodge bonus to AC until the beginning of your next turn.

Level 4: Wrathful Strike (Ex): Your critical hits with ranged, one-handed, and thrown weapons deal a bonus multiple of weapon damage. All ranged, one-handed, and thrown weapons you hold have their threat ranges doubled, as the Keen weapon property. You gain a +4 bonus to all rolls to confirm critical hits. Whenever you threaten a critical hit, you gain 1 Rage, and you gain an additional 2 Rage whenever you confirm a critical hit.

Level 5: Trick Shot (Ex): By spending 2 rage, you can perform a feint action or a disarm, bull rush, trip, or sunder maneuver when using a ranged or thrown weapon against a target within 30 feet. You receive a -2 penalty to yourBluff or combat maneuver check. These maneuvers use up ammunition as normal. You perform these actions when you would normally be eligible to perform them (e.g. as move, standard or full-round actions).

Level 6: Volley (Ex): As a full-round action, spend 5 rage to attack target creatures of your choice in a 30-foot cone (using your space as the origin of the area) using a ranged weapon. You attack each target with a single weapon attack using your highest base attack bonus, but with a -2 penalty. Make separate attack and damage rolls for each creature you target. Range increment penalties apply as normal. Damage dealt with Volley does not grant Rage.

All allies adjacent to you gain a +1 bonus on attack rolls and gain Fast Healing 1 for each Marshal archetype ability you have learned.

Level 1: Rally (Ex): By spending any amount of Rage as a swift action, you can inspire those under your command. For the next round, all allies that can see and hear you gain a bonus to attack rolls equal to half the Rage spent. They all also immediately heal one hit point per Marshal archetype ability you have learned per level. In addition, whenever an ally attacks an enemy you have attacked in the last round, they gain a +1 bonus on the attack roll.

Level 2: Assist (Ex): You can now use the Aid Another action as a move action with a range of up to 30 feet to allow an ally to reroll a saving throw with a +4 bonus, reroll an attack roll with a +4 bonus, heal one hit point per level, or gain a +4 bonus on AC against the next incoming attack. Whenever you do so, you gain 2 Rage.

Level 3: Coordination (Ex): Whenever more than one ally within 30 feet of you attacks the same enemy, they each receive a bonus to attack rolls equal to the number of allies attacking that enemy. For example, if two allies are attacking the same enemy, regardless of whether or not they are flanking, they both gain a +2 bonus on the attack roll.

Level 4: Inspiring Commands (Ex): Whenever an ally within 20 feet of you takes damage, they heal 1d6 hit points. Whenever an ally heals hit points because you have granted them Fast Healing or because of your Assist or Inspiring Command abilities, you gain 1 Rage.

Level 5: Tactical Shift (Ex): By spending 5 Rage as a move action, you can allow yourself and every ally within 30 feet of you to take a five-foot step that does not count against their actions for the turn.

Level 6: Focus Fire (Ex): By spending 8 Rage as a swift action, you can coordinate your team's fire against a single enemy. Whenever an ally that can see and hear you deals damage to that enemy within the next round, they double all modifiers to their d20 roll and deal double damage.

Talent: At levels 2, 4, and 6, you can choose a Talent from levels 2, 4, and 6, respectively. You can only choose one talent from a tier, and at each level you can only learn a talent from that level's corresponding list.

Improved Charge:You can now charge as a move action. Charging now provides a +5 bonus on your attack roll (instead of +2) and has no AC penalty.

Critical Charge: Whenever you charge, treat your attack roll at the end of a charge as a natural 20.

Nimble Charge: You can now turn during a charge, but no more than once per ten feet. Also, your movement during a charge no longer provokes attacks of opportunity.

Last stand: If you are below half your maximum health, you gain Fast Healing equal to three times your level.

Will to Fight: You can spend 2 rage as a swift action to heal hit points equal to your Constitution modifier times your level.

Juggernaut: You gain permanent Fast Healing equal to your level.

Titan's Grip: You can now wield two-handed weapons in one hand as if they were one-handed weapons. They now count as one-handed weapons for the purposes of all class features.

Whirlwind: By spending 8 rage, you can move up to your speed as a full-round action. Every five feet of movement, you can make an attack roll against an adjacent enemy. Your movement does not provoke attacks of opportunity.

Spellbreaker: By spending 7 Rage, you can disrupt all magic around you. For one round, all magic items cease to function and all spells cease to function. At the beginning of your next turn, they resume working. In addition, every spellcaster (character with at least one level in any Arcane class, any Divine class, or Shaman) must make a Fortitude save at a DC of 16 + your Strength modifier or be stunned for a round.

Ajadea

2013-11-17, 04:36 PM

I don't see anything wrong with forcing the 1st level of each Archetype to grant a way to spend resource.

Example 1st level Warrior Archetype Powers:
Shield warriors spend Rage to negate damage. Sword warriors spend Rage to boost the damage they deal. Bow warriors spend Rage to boost their attack rolls. Horn warriors spend Rage to inspire courage in their allies.

Instantly, you have a feel for what they're going to be good at doing, and they still have the unified warrior feature. I cannot see a reason why any warrior who wants to be able to take a few more hits shouldn't be able to negate some damage.

I'm also not convinced about the retraining thing being built in to the class mechanics. IMO, I would leave it as an optional addition to the ruleset.

AttilaTheGeek

2013-11-19, 01:48 PM

I don't see anything wrong with forcing the 1st level of each Archetype to grant a way to spend resource... Instantly, you have a feel for what they're going to be good at doing, and they still have the unified warrior feature. I cannot see a reason why any warrior who wants to be able to take a few more hits shouldn't be able to negate some damage.

You're right. I had wanted to avoid that being the case so that the different archetypes wouldn't feel too similar, but as I'm writing archetype powers I'm realizing that structure is only good. Just to be clear, by 5/1 (for example) I mean a character who takes 5 abilities from one archetype and 1 from another. Here's what I'm working with for structure:

Every archetype has a passive bonus that is granted for each archetype power you take.
A basic way to spend resource to accomplish the Archetype's role. Something that should be essential to accomplishing a role, and perhaps improved upon by the other archetype powers. Should be a viable combat action for anyone, because it will be taken by characters who spread their archetype abilities 5/1 or 4/1/1 or even 3/1/1/1.
A secondary ability that increases a character's ability to perform the role. With just the first and second abilities, a character should be decent, but not super capable. It's important for characters who distribute their archetype abilities 2/2/2, 4/2, or 3/2/1.
Should make a character fully capable in an archetype. It's always either the highest-level active archetype ability a character takes (in distributions like 3/3, 3/2/1, 3/1/1/1, 4/2/1, and 4/1/1) or a critical ability for more focused builds (5/1, 6/0).
A signature ability of the archetype. Since you can only take one fourth-level ability, it is often a way to regain resource that depends on the archetype.
A high-level ability of the archetype that should make them extremely capable in their role. Should feel like the pinnacle of the archetype's ability.
In terms of design space, this blends in with the 5th-level archetype ability; I'm thinking of dropping the 6th to make everyone branch out at least a little.

What do you think about that structure for different archetype abilities?

Composer99

2013-11-19, 02:11 PM

Looks good to me. Are you planning on replacing the level 6 archetype ability with a class-wide ability?

Also, I wanted to chime in about talents.

Rather than resort to using "tier" naming for talents (e.g. "Tier 2 Talents") why not just:

(1) List each time a talent comes up in the class features table as simply "Talent"

(2) In each class' description of the talents, note that at each level you can select a talent from that level's corresponding list.

(3) Provide the list of talents broken down by level.

Finally, with reference to Ajadea's comment on re-training, as a mechanical rule perhaps a PC can re-train a talent or archetype ability upon either gaining a level or upon gaining a new feat after reaching level 6?

Ajadea

2013-11-19, 05:22 PM

Ooh, ooh, can I?

Retrain Archetype [Epic 6]
Prerequisite: 6th level
Effects: Exchange one of your archetype abilities for another archetype ability from the same class. You must meet requirements for all archetype abilities. You may not exchange an archetype ability if doing so would prevent you from qualifying for another archetype ability that you already possess.
--------
May I ask, is the Warrior supposed to have 2d10 hit die or was that merely an errant typo? I am going to tentatively assume the former based on stated design goals, but I wanted to check.

Further idle thoughts:
All casters (here used as a blanket term for every Arcane-style class, plus Cleric) might work better with a tiny beguiler-style spell list than an assortment of SLAs, with Archetypes adding to spells known.

AttilaTheGeek

2013-11-19, 06:19 PM

Looks good to me. Are you planning on replacing the level 6 archetype ability with a class-wide ability?

They already get a choice of capstone talent at 6. I don't expect anyone to take all six abilities from the same archetype, but I considered making them only go up to five to make sure everyone branched out a little. Also, it would save myself a considerable amount of work.

Also, I wanted to chime in about talents.

Rather than resort to using "tier" naming for talents (e.g. "Tier 2 Talents") why not just:

(1) List each time a talent comes up in the class features table as simply "Talent"

(2) In each class' description of the talents, note that at each level you can select a talent from that level's corresponding list.

(3) Provide the list of talents broken down by level.

Yeah, that's probably simpler.

Ooh, ooh, can I?

Retrain Archetype [Epic 6]
Prerequisite: 6th level
Effects: Exchange one of your archetype abilities for another archetype ability from the same class. You must meet requirements for all archetype abilities. You may not exchange an archetype ability if doing so would prevent you from qualifying for another archetype ability that you already possess.

I like it. I wonder if it shouldn't let you retrain two or three, which is enough to change your secondaries without being able to completely shift your focus.

May I ask, is the Warrior supposed to have 2d10 hit die or was that merely an errant typo? I am going to tentatively assume the former based on stated design goals, but I wanted to check.

Intentional. I'm going to give Protection extra hit points too (2*level*number of Protection talents) instead of the DR they currently have.

Further idle thoughts:
All casters (here used as a blanket term for every Arcane-style class, plus Cleric) might work better with a tiny beguiler-style spell list than an assortment of SLAs, with Archetypes adding to spells known.

I guess my problem with that is I just don't like the Core spell list, and I don't want to count on people to know non-core spells. There have also been so many different spell fixes (most recently, Vadskye's) that I wouldn't know which one to choose. But, most importantly, there are roles that the core spell list doesn't fill well. Take blasting, for example. There's Magic Missile, Burning Hands, Shocking Grasp, Scorching Ray, Fireball, and Lightning Bolt. Or buffing: Enlarge Person, the Animal's Adjective line, and not too much else. Healing is even worse: Cure Light, Cure Medium, and Cure Serious, and that's it.

The core spell list I'd be choosing from provides great breadth but not great depth. That's why Wizards and Clerics are tier 1: because they have such a huge variety of abilities. But if you try to play an extremely focused Wizard or Cleric, there's not a whole lot of interesting gameplay there. I want to create gameplay in which someone can have fun just blasting, just buffing, or just healing, instead of having a wider variety of abilities.

Ajadea

2013-11-19, 07:13 PM

AttilaTheGeek

2013-11-19, 08:01 PM

Healing?
0: Virtue (temporary HP)
1: Remove Fear
2: Aid (temporary HP), Lesser Restoration, Remove Paralysis
3: Remove Blindness/Deafness, Remove Disease, Neutralize Poison.

Plus Cure X Wounds (Minor -> Serious). Spells like Deathwatch (1st) and Status (2nd) are also useful for your wannabe healer.

Though I feel like what you're referring to is more classified along the lines of Supernatural (Su) abilities. Not explicitly analogous to a spell, but can be neutralized by anti-magic effects. They should also be able to be disrupted or dispelled - generally by the resident Cleric or Inquisitor, going by the outline roles.

Right, but what I mean to say is, if you want to play a dedicated healing Cleric, you're gonna have a bad time. All they can do is straight heal or remove conditions. Abilities like heal-over-time effects, shielding, triggered healing, and area heals could make being a dedicated healer so much more fun, and they're just not present in the core spell list.

More ideas thrown out into the void:
Swordsage archetypes:
Swiftblade - focus on one-handed attacks and speed, maybe a blur or haste-like effect at higher archetype tiers.
Eldritch Knight - a magical tank, possibly with some anti-magic capacity. Heavy armor (probably the only swordsage archetype to receive that proficiency) seems appropriate.
Elemental Warrior - for when you really just want to kill things with fire, ice, or lightning. A strong focus on appropriate energy damage, resistance, etc.
Iron Fist - the monk returns with more explicit magic than before. Leap tall buildings in a single bound and punch your way through a wall.

Swashbuckler archetypes:
Dashing Swordsman - come on, we're on the OotS forum, you saw this coming. A dextrous and lightly armored fighter. Taunt effects are reasonable here - this plus sky-high AC may turn the Dashing Swordsman into an evasive tank.
Duelist - all Focus classes excel vs. a single powerful target. Why not make the most of it? Duelist gets high bonuses versus a single target, and makes heavy use of combat maneuvers such as tripping and disarming.

Hmm, I like! I'll keep these in mind for when I eventually do get around to writing them. I'm wondering in what order you think I should do the classes- semi-randomly as inspiration strikes (easiest first), continue with Swordsage and then around the circle (Swordsage, Mage, Trickster, Rogue...), or try to get the focused classes (Warrior, Mage, Cleric, Rogue, Shaman) down first?

Regarding the warrior's archetype abilities:
I like what Marshal and Fury have so far.

Good to know! Fury was the easiest to write, but I've been just making up the Marshal abilities as I go along. I'm glad they're actually good!

Is Sudden Speed's base land speed on top of the boost you get from the Agility tree?

It has been moved to the Agility tree boost. It now reads:

Level 1: Sudden Speed (Ex): By spending 3 Rage as a swift action, you gain a bonus to attack rolls, a bonus to Reflex saves, and a dodge bonus to AC equal to your Dexterity modifier for one round. In addition, you no longer provoke attacks of opportunity for firing ranged weapons.

I really don't like Chains of Fury - mostly because the idea of a bunch of chains shooting out of your body to grab everyone within X distance seems a bit overtly magical for a 5th level fighter. I also think that Cripple feels like a better fit for an Assassin Rogue than a fighter.

Hmm, okay.

Perhaps replace Chains of Fury, or even Cripple, with a taunt ability that forces all opponents within X distance to attack you that round or move towards you? Protection Warrior should be kinda tanky, right? So let them tank. Draw fire from their vulnerable allies so that said physically vulnerable allies can shank the enemies while their backs are turned.

I'm hesitant to give an actual taunt ability, because as was pointed out it does seem strange to make someone automatically attack you. Still, it's fitting for a tank. Rewriting...

Ajadea

2013-11-19, 08:09 PM

AttilaTheGeek

2013-11-19, 08:17 PM

Eh, making it a Will-Save targeting ability with DC set by something like 10 + # of Protection Archetype abilities + Stat of Choice modifier removes any overt compulsion effect. They got pissed off and decided to punch you in the face. Logic exited the building when they failed their save.

Not that I'm going to steal that outright, or anything...

What do you think about Agility archetype abilities? Those are the ones I'm having the most trouble with.

Edit to add: I think there's one archetype with which I am finished (except for numbers tuning at the end) and that is Fury.

Whenever you deal damage with an attack, that damage is increased by 1 per Fury archetype ability you have learned.

Level 1: Deep Wounds (Ex): Whenever you deal damage to an enemy with an attack, you can spend 3 Rage. At the beginning of your next turn for the next three rounds, the enemy takes damage equal to your Strength modifier. This damage restores your Rage as normal and is multiplied by your weapon's critical hit multiplier on a critical hit. This damage stacks with itself if you use this ability more than once, but can only grant you Rage once per turn.

Level 2: Knockdown (Ex): Whenever you deal damage to an enemy with an attack, you can spend 3 Rage. If you do, make a Bull Rush attempt against that enemy, but substitute your damage for your d20 roll. If you succeed, the enemy is knocked prone, not pushed back.

Level 3: Execution (Ex): By spending 6 Rage as a full-round action, you can make a single attack that does not benefit from bonus damage because of your Rage. This attack cannot be a Power Attack, and you cannot apply Deep Wounds, Knockdown, or any other attack abilities to it. However, if it hits, its damage is equal to one-third of the hit points its target is missing. Your Strength modifier does not apply. For example, if the target has 40 hit points remaining out of 100, then it is missing 60 hit points and therefore an Execution would deal 20 damage.

Level 4: Oath of Destruction (Ex): You can swear destruction upon an enemy, reveling in their imminent death. Doing so is a free action. When you do so, you lose all Rage. However, you gain 1 Rage whenever they take damage and gain an additional 2 Rage whenever they take damage from you. While you have an Oath of Destruction active, you no longer gain Rage when you deal damage to other targets, but still gain Rage when you take damage. An Oath expires when its target dies or when you go more than one round without dealing damage to them.

Level 5: Cleaving Attack (Ex and Su): Whenever you hit with a melee attack, you can spend 2 Rage as a free action, which is an extraordinary ability. If you do, you can make an attack with the same attack bonus but with a -3 penalty (so doing so multiple times gives a stacking -3 penalty each time) against another enemy adjacent to you.

Also, whenever you hit with a ranged attack, you can spend 2 Rage as a free action, which is a supernatural ability. If you do, your arrow continues flying through its first target and into another. You can make another attack with the same attack bonus but with a -3 penalty (so doing so multiple times gives a stacking -3 penalty each time) against another enemy within range of the first.

Level 6: Hammer the Gap (Ex): Whenever you successfully deal damage to an enemy with an attack, you can spend 4 rage to push them five feet backwards. This movement does not provoke attacks of opportunity. If you do, you can make another attack against them. Instead, or in addition, you can take a free five-foot step towards them.

One down, 59 to go! :smallbiggrin:

Composer99

2013-11-19, 09:47 PM

Not that I'm going to steal that outright, or anything...

What do you think about Agility archetype abilities? Those are the ones I'm having the most trouble with.

Perhaps adapt some of the archetype abilities from Pathfinder?

So far you've got:

Sudden Speed (Ex): By spending 3 Rage as a swift action, you gain a bonus to attack rolls, a bonus to Reflex saves, and a dodge bonus to AC equal to your Dexterity modifier for one round. In addition, you no longer provoke attacks of opportunity for firing ranged weapons.

as the level 1 archetype power, which seems a bit strong.

You also have adding 5 to your speed for the scaling archetype bonus, which is fine, in and of itself. I do wonder if it is an archer/marksman archetype-style bonus, though, it strikes me as more of a skirmisher-type bonus.

Using your list of archetype bonuses as a template:

1.A basic way to spend resource to accomplish the Archetype's role. Something that should be essential to accomplishing a role, and perhaps improved upon by the other archetype powers. Should be a viable combat action for anyone, because it will be taken by characters who spread their archetype abilities 5/1 or 4/1/1 or even 3/1/1/1.
2.A secondary ability that increases a character's ability to perform the role. With just the first and second abilities, a character should be decent, but not super capable. It's important for characters who distribute their archetype abilities 2/2/2, 4/2, or 3/2/1.
3.Should make a character fully capable in an archetype. It's always either the highest-level active archetype ability a character takes (in distributions like 3/3, 3/2/1, 3/1/1/1, 4/2/1, and 4/1/1) or a critical ability for more focused builds (5/1, 6/0).
4.A signature ability of the archetype. Since you can only take one fourth-level ability, it is often a way to regain resource that depends on the archetype.
5.A high-level ability of the archetype that should make them extremely capable in their role. Should feel like the pinnacle of the archetype's ability.

How about the following?

Passive Archetype Bonus
Reduce your range increment penalties when using ranged weapons (including or not including thrown weapons? I'm not sure) by 1 for each archetype ability you select in this archetype, to a minimum of 0.

1st Archetype Ability
Sudden Shot (Ex): If you are making a standard or full-round action to attack with a ranged weapon, as a swift action you can spend 2 rage to make an additional attack at your highest base attack bonus.

2nd Archetype Ability
Safe Shot (Ex): (Adapted from the Pathfinder archetype) Spend 1 rage as a free action to not provoke attacks of opportunity when attacking with a ranged weapon until the start of your next turn.

3rd Archetype Ability
Trick Shot (Ex): (Adapted from the Pathfinder archetype) You can perform a feint action or a disarm or sunder maneuver when using a ranged weapon against a target within 30 feet. If you spend 3 rage you can perform a bull rush, grapple, or trip maneuver when using a ranged weapon against a target within 30 feet. These maneuvers use up ammunition as normal.

A creature grappled by an arrow or bolt can break free by destroying the ammunition (hardness 5, hit points 1, break DC 13) or with an Escape Artist(*) or CMB check (against the archer's CMD –4).

(*) Dunno if you intend on having Escape Artist in the skill mix or not.
(**) Also, I didn't include the -4 penalty to the CMB checks the archer makes; but in an E6 game you can probably add the penalty back in since most of the creatures you will be fighting don't have incredible CMDs like they do in higher-level games.

4th Archetype Ability
Wrathful Shot (Ex): Your critical hits deal an additional multiple of weapon damage and bonus damage equal to 1 + your Dexterity modifier. Whenever you confirm a critical hit add 2 rage to your rage pool.

5th Archetype Ability
Volley (Ex): As a full-round action, attack any creature of your choice in a 60-foot cone (using your space as the origin of the area). You attack each creature with a single weapon attack using your highest base attack bonus and a -2 penalty. Make separate attack and damage rolls for each creature you target.

Ajadea

2013-11-19, 10:41 PM

Execution's kinda weak at first glance (in most cases, a straight Power Attack probably does more, though I haven't run the numbers), and I'm a little surprised to see a delayed damage effect on the Hulk Smash archetype though not strictly speaking against it. Everything else is nice.

For the Taunt mechanic, I meant you should choose, not let the player choose which modifier to use. Also, 'the next possible opportunity' is a bit vague. They move toward you and attempt to engage in melee that round, if possible. The Taunt is probably broken either after 1 round or after they attempt to make a melee attack. At which point they snap out of it, and you grin and politely inform them how screwed they are.

I would call the upgraded version Mass Taunt.
----
Looking at archery:
1st level's good. A straight up rage-to-flurry with ranged weapons.
2nd level's a bit meh, at best. Attacks of opportunity suck anyway.
Archer's Stance: Gain +10 to your base land speed. You may make ranged attacks without provoking attacks of opportunity.
3rd level is cool. I want to bull rush someone with an arrow now.
4th level makes me want a keen bow. Crits!
5th level is a little worrying, by which I mean it sounds completely awesome. To clarify, I can attack every enemy in a 60 foot cone from me with an arrow if I so choose (and have the arrows to spare), right? It should have a fairly substantial Rage cost - 4 seems reasonable. Also, damage dealt by Volley does not allow you to regain Rage if this is the case - this is to prevent instantly maxing out one's Rage via Volley.

I think Sudden Speed would make a good capstone:
Sudden Speed (Ex): Spend 1 to 5 rage as a swift action. You gain a +X bonus to attack rolls, Reflex saves, and as a dodge bonus to AC for 1 round, where X is the amount of Rage you spent.

Is it ridiculous? A bit, yeah.

It's a 6th level archetype ability that prevents you from flurrying though, and you're going to have a heck of a time trying to build up the rage to use it with Volley.

Yeah, you can use it with Volley. You're a 6th level fully dedicated archer, and you'd have built up 5-9 Rage to use that combo. If you want to subsequently block out the sun with your awesome, why NOT?

Composer99

2013-11-20, 07:03 AM

Yeah, volley was supposed to have a rage cost. 4-5 is probably about right. mumblemumble something about toddler-inspired sleep deprivation mumblemumble...

Oh, and yes, I would say when using volley you do not generate rage normally or with Wrathful Shot ability.

AttilaTheGeek

2013-11-20, 07:24 AM

Composer99

2013-11-20, 10:48 AM

I don't want to make an archetype full of ranged weapon bonuses and all the rest for melee, because then archers have to go 6/0 and melee Warriors only have three archetypes to choose from. However, I do like what you've come up with. I don't mind an ability giving different bonuses to melee and ranged, I just don't want any abilities to be useless for one or the other.

So the agility/archer/skirmisher archetype should emphasize both ranged marksmanship (including with thrown weapons) and mobility for the 1st through 3rd archetype powers, giving it utility for both dedicated ranged-combat specialists and other warriors. The higher-stage archetype powers can be more dedicated to ranged combat since by that point one is clearly going for specialization over versatility.

All right, let's give this another shot. All abilities are (Ex).

Marksman's Archetype

Archetype Trait
Marksman: If you have at least one archetype power from this archetype, increase your base speed by 5 feet.

In addition, for each archetype power you select from this archetype after the first, reduce your range increment penalties by 1 when attacking with a ranged or thrown weapon, to a minimum of 0.

(For example, if you have 3 archetype powers from this archetype and are attacking with a longbow, you have no range increment penalty for firing within the first 200 feet, and you have a -2 penalty for firing 201-300 feet, a -4 penalty for firing 301-400 feet, and so on.)

While this trait mainly benefits characters going up the archetype power chain, it does benefit melee-oriented warriors by giving them an upfront boost to movement.

Archetype Powers

(1st) Evasive Mobility: By spending 2 rage as a swift action you can make a second 5-foot step on your turn, and until the start of your next turn you do not provoke attacks of opportunity for making attacks with a ranged weapon.

I think this ability helps both marksman specialists and melee types, by setting up flanking, and helping the warrior get around when there are creatures with reach.

(2nd) Sudden Shot: If you are making a standard or full-round action to attack with a ranged weapon, as a free action you can spend 3 rage to make an additional attack at your highest base attack bonus. If you are making a standard or full-round action to attack with a melee or thrown weapon, you instead make an additional attack with a thrown weapon at your highest base attack bonus.

Moves this power to 2nd; I also changed the action to make it compatible with Evasive Mobility. To make it more palatable for melee I have added a clause that lets you throw something on the same turn you're making a swing - which should be doable in an approximate six-second span.

(3rd) Burst of Speed: Spend 1 to 3 rage as a swift action. Until the start of your next turn:
- your movement increases by +10 feet; and
- you receive a competence bonus to attack rolls and Reflex saves and a dodge bonus to AC equal to 1 + the amount of rage you spent.

If you have spent at least 2 rage, until the start of your next turn:
- your thrown weapon base range increases by 5 feet; and
- your ranged weapon base range increases by 10 feet.

I think this serves as a good "mini"-capstone that rounds out the melee/skirmisher/mobility aspect of this archetype.

(4th) Wrathful Shot: Your critical hits with ranged or thrown weapons deal an additional multiple of weapon damage and bonus damage equal to 1 + your Dexterity modifier. Whenever you threaten a critical hit with a ranged or thrown weapon, add 1 rage to your rage pool; if you then confirm the critical, add an additional 2 rage to your rage pool.

Same as previous, only adding a bit more rage (and giving rage for threatening the critical) because critical hits aren't sure things.

(5th) Trick Shot: By spending 1 rage, you can perform a feint action or a disarm or sunder maneuver when using a ranged or thrown weapon against a target within 30 feet. You receive a -2 penalty to the Bluff or combat maneuver check.

If you instead spend 3 rage you can perform a bull rush, grapple, or trip maneuver when using a ranged or thrown weapon against a target within 30 feet. You receive a -2 penalty to the combat maneuver check.

These maneuvers use up ammunition as normal. You perform these actions when you would normally be eligible to perform them (e.g. as move, standard or full-round actions).

A creature grappled in this manner can break free by destroying the ammunition (hardness 5, hit points 1, break DC 13) or with an Escape Artist(*) or CMB check, against your CMD–4.

Same ability, though nerfed a bit. After thinking about it a bit I thought perhaps it was slightly overpowered as initially written.

(*) Or substitute if Escape Artist is not in the skill mix (such as Athletics/Acrobatics, the way 4e handles it).

(6th) Volley: As a full-round action, spend 5 rage to attack target creatures of your choice in a 45-foot cone (using your space as the origin of the area) using a ranged or thrown weapon. You attack each target with a single weapon attack using your highest base attack bonus (but with a -2 penalty). Make separate attack and damage rolls for each creature you target. Range increment penalties apply as normal (subject to modification by your archetype trait).

The maximum number of creatures you can target is your 12 + your Dexterity modifier. (*)

You do not gain Rage for hitting targets with this power, nor can you gain Rage when using this power by means of your Wrathful Shot.

Added in a rage cost and nerfed slightly, including clarifications for Rage build-up as discussed upthread. The upper bound on targets probably isn't likely to be a practical limit in play, but I figured it was justifiable.

The original power from Pathfinder allowed you to fire in all directions in a 15-foot-radius burst, which was neat for omni-directional fire but kind of sucky for having to be in melee range. This change gives you more range but you don't get to spin around.

(*) Formula is your level (which by now would be 6) + number of archery/mobility archetype powers (which by now would be 6) + Dexterity modifier, so I just simplified it.

Hope that's better!

Ajadea

2013-11-21, 03:49 AM

Thoughts on Mages, Flight, and Vigor:
The mage's 1st level unified ability should be an Eldritch Blast-like effect. 60 ft range, standard action, 1d6 fire damage, no cost, nothing special. Fireball is a classic. Mages are all raw blasty damage - the epitome of the glass cannon. Replace 3rd level bonus feat & 5th level Unified feature with Fireball 2d6 and Fireball 3d6 respectively?

I would not consider flight to be something every mage can do. Or even any Mage.

Trickster, Air Druid, and Local Shaman seem like they might be able to fly. Swordsage, Swashbuckler, and Eagle Barbarian can probably manage a 20+ foot jump straight up. Shadow Rogue has a short-range teleport, the Acrobat can probably walk on walls, and the Summoner can possibly ride his eidolon into battle.

Every one of these has something in common - their range is mediocre at best.

Mages run on explodium and stay as far away from a fight as possible. Why do they need flight?
------
A formal outline for Balance (you'll see why I renamed it in a sec):
Balance has a range of +3 to -3. Abilities that use Balance are powered by Shifts. Add the Shift value to your Balance score when you use a Balance ability. If the total is greater than +3 or less than -3, you may not use that ability.
Ex: A Druid with Balance 2 attempts to use Entangle, which has Shift -1. 2 + (-1) = 1. 1 is within Balance range. The Druid successfully uses Entangle.
Ex: A Shaman at Balance 0 attempts to use Nature's Wrath, which has Shift 4. 0 + 4 = 4. 4 is outside Balance range, and thus the ability cannot be used.

AttilaTheGeek

2013-11-24, 07:07 PM

I had this whole long post prepared comparing what you wrote to what I wrote and why I changed what I did, but I wound up losing the post not once but twice, and I don't want to write all of it a third time. Here's a comparison, but spoiled for length.

Marksman's Archetype

Archetype Trait
Marksman: If you have at least one archetype power from this archetype, increase your base speed by 5 feet.

In addition, for each archetype power you select from this archetype after the first, reduce your range increment penalties by 1 when attacking with a ranged or thrown weapon, to a minimum of 0.

(For example, if you have 3 archetype powers from this archetype and are attacking with a longbow, you have no range increment penalty for firing within the first 200 feet, and you have a -2 penalty for firing 201-300 feet, a -4 penalty for firing 301-400 feet, and so on.)

Archetype Powers

(1st) Evasive Mobility: By spending 2 rage as a swift action you can make a second 5-foot step on your turn, and until the start of your next turn you do not provoke attacks of opportunity for making attacks with a ranged weapon.

(2nd) Sudden Shot: If you are making a standard or full-round action to attack with a ranged weapon, as a free action you can spend 3 rage to make an additional attack at your highest base attack bonus. If you are making a standard or full-round action to attack with a melee or thrown weapon, you instead make an additional attack with a thrown weapon at your highest base attack bonus.

(3rd) Burst of Speed: Spend 1 to 3 rage as a swift action. Until the start of your next turn:
- your movement increases by +10 feet; and
- you receive a competence bonus to attack rolls and Reflex saves and a dodge bonus to AC equal to 1 + the amount of rage you spent.

If you have spent at least 2 rage, until the start of your next turn:
- your thrown weapon base range increases by 5 feet; and
- your ranged weapon base range increases by 10 feet.

(5th) Trick Shot: By spending 1 rage, you can perform a feint action or a disarm or sunder maneuver when using a ranged or thrown weapon against a target within 30 feet. You receive a -2 penalty to the Bluff or combat maneuver check.

If you instead spend 3 rage you can perform a bull rush, grapple, or trip maneuver when using a ranged or thrown weapon against a target within 30 feet. You receive a -2 penalty to the combat maneuver check.

These maneuvers use up ammunition as normal. You perform these actions when you would normally be eligible to perform them (e.g. as move, standard or full-round actions).

A creature grappled in this manner can break free by destroying the ammunition (hardness 5, hit points 1, break DC 13) or with an Escape Artist(*) or CMB check, against your CMD–4.

(6th) Volley: As a full-round action, spend 5 rage to attack target creatures of your choice in a 45-foot cone (using your space as the origin of the area) using a ranged or thrown weapon. You attack each target with a single weapon attack using your highest base attack bonus (but with a -2 penalty). Make separate attack and damage rolls for each creature you target. Range increment penalties apply as normal (subject to modification by your archetype trait).

The maximum number of creatures you can target is your 12 + your Dexterity modifier. (*)

You do not gain Rage for hitting targets with this power, nor can you gain Rage when using this power by means of your Wrathful Shot.

Your land speed is permanently increased by 5 feet per Agility archetype ability you have learned.

Level 1: Evasive Mobility (Ex): By spending 1 Rage as a swift action, you no longer provoke attacks of opportunity for firing ranged weapons this round. Also, you can add your Dexterity modifier to damage with ranged weapons and to attack and damage with one-handed weapons this turn. Finally, you can take a five-foot step that does not count against your actions for the turn.

Level 2: Sudden Shot (Ex): If you are taking a standard or full-round action to attack with a ranged weapon, as a free action you can spend 3 rage to make an additional attack at your highest base attack bonus. If you are making a standard or full-round action to attack with a melee or thrown weapon, you instead make an additional attack with a one-handed or thrown weapon at your highest base attack bonus.

Level 3: Burst of Speed (Ex): By spending 3 Rage as a swift action, you can increase your speed for one round. You gain a +30 foot bonus to your movement speed (or a +20 foot bonus if you are wearing heavy armor) and your movement does not provoke attacks of opportunity this turn. You also receive a +2 bonus to attack rolls and reflex saves and a +2 dodge bonus to AC until the beginning of your next turn.

Level 4: Wrathful Strike (Ex): Your critical hits with ranged, one-handed, and thrown weapons deal a bonus multiple of weapon damage. All ranged, one-handed, and thrown weapons you hold have their threat ranges doubled, as the Keen weapon property. You gain a +4 bonus to all rolls to confirm critical hits. Whenever you threaten a critical hit, you gain 1 Rage, and you gain an additional 2 Rage whenever you confirm a critical hit.

Level 5: Trick Shot (Ex): By spending 2 rage, you can perform a feint action or a disarm, bull rush, trip, or sunder maneuver when using a ranged or thrown weapon against a target within 30 feet. You receive a -2 penalty to yourBluff or combat maneuver check. These maneuvers use up ammunition as normal. You perform these actions when you would normally be eligible to perform them (e.g. as move, standard or full-round actions).

Level 6: Volley (Ex): As a full-round action, spend 5 rage to attack target creatures of your choice in a 30-foot cone (using your space as the origin of the area) using a ranged weapon. You attack each target with a single weapon attack using your highest base attack bonus, but with a -2 penalty. Make separate attack and damage rolls for each creature you target. Range increment penalties apply as normal. Damage dealt with Volley does not grant Rage

The only major changes were additions to the lower-level abilities to make it attractive for one-handers.

Thoughts on Mages, Flight, and Vigor:
The mage's 1st level unified ability should be an Eldritch Blast-like effect. 60 ft range, standard action, 1d6 fire damage, no cost, nothing special. Fireball is a classic. Mages are all raw blasty damage - the epitome of the glass cannon. Replace 3rd level bonus feat & 5th level Unified feature with Fireball 2d6 and Fireball 3d6 respectively?

I would not consider flight to be something every mage can do. Or even any Mage.

I like it. I think I'll write the Mage next.

A formal outline for Balance (you'll see why I renamed it in a sec):
Balance has a range of +3 to -3. Abilities that use Balance are powered by Shifts. Add the Shift value to your Balance score when you use a Balance ability. If the total is greater than +3 or less than -3, you may not use that ability.
Ex: A Druid with Balance 2 attempts to use Entangle, which has Shift -1. 2 + (-1) = 1. 1 is within Balance range. The Druid successfully uses Entangle.
Ex: A Shaman at Balance 0 attempts to use Nature's Wrath, which has Shift 4. 0 + 4 = 4. 4 is outside Balance range, and thus the ability cannot be used.

Very good, I'll use this.

AttilaTheGeek

2013-11-25, 09:38 PM

I was thinking about some Mage archetypes today, so I figured it'd be good to get my thoughts down on paper post. I'm not sure what unified class feature to give, and I have a couple ideas for talents, but I haven't written them up yet. What I'm looking for feedback on in particular is the whole "Eldritch Blast being replaced by different elements" deal. It seems almost pointless to have an Eldritch Blast, but I do like "ranged touch attack" as the basic Mage class feature. What do you think?

The Mage
Hit Die: 2d6
Skill List: Knowledges, spellcraft, and so forth.
BAB: 1/2
Saves: Good Will, bad Fort and Ref
{table=head]Level|Class Features
1|Eldritch Blast 1d6, Mana, Archetype Ability
2|Talent, Archetype Ability
3|Eldritch Blast 2d6, Bonus feat, Archetype Ability
4|Talent, Archetype Ability
5|Eldritch Blast 3d6, Unified Class Feature, Archetype Ability
6|Talent, Archetype Ability[/table]

Eldritch Blast: Standard action, touch attack, no save, deals 1d6/2 levels piercing damage. Penetrates DR/magic, but is stopped by other DR. Costs no mana. Is replaced by each archetype's first-level ability, so I'm thinking about changing it.

Mana: Mana pool size is equal to (INT score - 10) + 2*level. I say INT score - 10 because it's more friendly to odd numbers than "2*INT mod", and it's mechanically equivalent. Mana at level one is between 7 and 12 (for INT 15 and 20, respectively), and Mana at level six is between 20 and 30 (for INT 18 vs. 24+full Arcane passive). Mana can be spent, invested, or burned, as Gnorman's idea. Spent Mana regenerates at 1/round, invested mana is returned when an effect expires, and burned mana only returns at the beginning of the day. All saving throws for abilities that cost Mana have a DC of 10 + the number of archetype abilities from the ability's archetype you have learned + your Intelligence modifier.

Archetype Abilities (Sp, Su, or Ex): At each level, choose an archetype ability to learn. Each of an archetype's abilities has all previous abilities of that archetype as a prerequisite; for example, you cannot take the second Fire archetype ability without having previously learned the first.

The Fire archetype focuses on damage, and Fire Mages have powerful single-target and area-of-effect spells. Whenever you deal fire damage to a target, they are affected by the burning condition, as described below.

Burning: At the beginning of each of your turns, a burning target takes fire damage equal to the number of Fire archetype abilities you know multiplied by the number of stacks of Burning on them. Burning has a duration of three rounds, but if it is reapplied, the duration is reset and the target gains another stack.

For example, a first-level mage with the Scorching Ray ability uses it and hits their target. The target gains a stack of burning, and takes 1 (number of Fire abilities) * 1 (number of stacks) = 1 damage at the beginning of the mage's next turn. If the mage hits with Scorching Ray again, the target will gain another stack of burning and will take 2 damage at the beginning of each of the mage's turns for the next three rounds.

Level 1: Scorching Ray (Sp): Your Eldritch Blast can now set enemies on fire. By spending 1 Mana, you can change the damage type of an Eldritch Blast to fire. A Scorching Ray is not affected by damage reduction.

Level 2: Burning Hands (Sp): You shoot a 15' cone of fire in front of you. Enemies caught in the cone take 1d6 damage per level and can make a Reflex save for half damage. Burning Hands costs # Mana.

Level 3: Fireball (Sp): A fireball generates a searing explosion of flame that detonates with a low roar and deals 1d6 points of fire damage per level to every creature within the area. Unattended objects also take this damage. You point your finger and determine the range (distance and height) at which the fireball is to burst. A glowing, pea-sized bead streaks from the pointing digit and, unless it impacts upon a material body or solid barrier prior to attaining the prescribed range, blossoms into the fireball at that point. An early impact results in an early detonation. If you attempt to send the bead through a narrow passage, such as through an arrow slit, you must “hit” the opening with a ranged touch attack, or else the bead strikes the barrier and detonates prematurely. Fireball costs # Mana.

Level 4: Implosion (Sp): All stacks of Burning come off for a huge burst of damage.

Level 5

Level 6: Meteor Storm (Sp): Basically the spell.

Frost mages deal strong damage and can control the battlefield. Frost mages often

[I]Frozen: When you use the power of frost against an enemy, they have a chance to become frozen in place. Whenever you deal cold damage to an enemy, they have a 40% chance + 10% per Frost archetype ability you have learned to gain the frozen condition. A creature with the frozen condition cannot move, but can free themselves by spending a move action.

Level 1: Frostbolt (Sp): Your Eldritch Blast can now freeze enemies in place. By spending 1 Mana, you can change the damage type of an Eldritch Blast to cold. A Frostbolt is not affected by damage reduction.

Level 2: Shatter: Your spells can shatter a frozen enemy to pieces. Whenever you use a supernatural or spell-like ability that requires an attack roll against target with the frozen condition, its critical threat range is increased by three times the number of Frost archetype abilities you know.

Level 3

Level 4

Level 5

Level 6

Arcane mages can deal extraordinary single-target damage, but are forced to burn dangerous amounts of Mana to do so. However, your Mana pool is increased by the number of Arcane talents you have learned.

Level 1: Magic Missile (Sp): Your Eldritch Blast can now set enemies on fire. By spending 1 Mana, you can change the damage type of an Eldritch Blast to force. A Magic Missile is not affected by damage reduction. Magic Missile never misses, but can also never critically hit.

Level 2: Energy Barrage (Su): You learn to send out an additional pulse of energy as an afterthought to a more powerful spell. An Energy Barrage is costs 1 Mana and is a swift action. It deals only 1 damage to a target within 60 feet, but can deal damage of any energy type.

Level 3: Empower Spell: Whenever you spend Mana on an ability that deals damage, you can choose to spend twice as much Mana. If you do, the spell deals an extra 50% damage.

Level 4: Arcane Burst (Sp): By burning huge amounts of Mana, you can unleash extraordinary energy. Arcane Burst requires you to burn half your remaining Mana. It deals force damage equal to (your level plus your Intelligence modifier) times the Mana burned, never misses, and allows no save to reduce the damage. For example, if you are a level four Mage with an intelligence modifier of +4 and 20 Mana, then Arcane Burst requires you to burn 10 Mana (half of 20) and deals 80 damage because (4+4)*10=80. Really not sure about the numbers on this one. I'll have to revisit it later, after I tune numbers. But do you get the idea?

Level 5

Level 6

Lightning mages deal damage that jumps from target to target, searing multiple foes. Whenever you deal electricity damage to an enemy, the ability that did the damage has a 10% chance per Lightning archetype ability to jump to another target within its range of the first at no Man cost to you. The second target is affected just as the first: make an attack roll (if necessary), and if it hits, it has a chance to continue again.

Level 1: Discharge (Sp): Your Eldritch Blast can now jump from one enemy to anther. By spending 1 Mana, you can change the damage type of an Eldritch Blast to electricity. A Discharge is not affected by damage reduction.

Level 2: Lightning Bolt (Sp): Like the spell.

Level 3

Level 4

Level 5

Level 6

Ajadea

2013-11-26, 02:09 AM

Taking Eldritch Blast and running with it:

The damage type of Energy Blast is determined by your choice of archetype at first level. If you have access to multiple archetypes, you may choose which type of damage your Energy Blast deals.

The spells you've chosen to put on their lists are WAY too powerful for their level. Gonna tone that down a lot.
I believe the proposed Mana use was:
Invested - returned when it is uninvested
Spent - returns at beginning of day
Burnt - returns at a rate of 1 point/day
Thus making Burn a significant sacrifice for massive power. These abilities are balanced around that power recovery mechanic.

Unless otherwise noted, all archetype abilities are Supernatural (Su). Save DCs are 10 + the number of archetype abilities from that tree + Intelligence modifier. Some abilities reference temporary Mana. Temporary Mana may be spent as normal Mana, but may not be burnt. Unused temporary Mana disappears in a number of rounds equal to (Intelligence score - 10).

Your Energy Blast may deal Fire damage.
You deal extra damage equal to the amount of Fire archetype abilities you have whenever you use an Energy Blast or cast a spell that deals damage, and double that extra damage when using a Fire Blast or cast a spell that deals fire damage.

Level 1: Firestarter (Sp)
Spend 2 Mana to cast produce flame, as the spell. Your caster level equals the number of fire archetype abilities you know.
Level 2: Fireball
You may spend 4 Mana as part of using your Energy Blast to turn it into a Fireball. Fireball has a range of 100 + 10 ft. per Fire archetype ability known, and deals damage to every target within a 10 foot spread. You do not need to make an attack roll to hit targets, however anyone in the spread radius may make a Reflex save for half damage. For the purposes of archetype abilities, all damage dealt with Fireball is treated as fire damage in addition to whatever damage type it uses.
Level 3: Immolate
Invest 8 Mana to activate Immolate. Whenever you kill a target with weapon damage or fire damage, you gain 1d8 temporary Mana points.
Level 4:
Level 5:
Level 6:
Your Energy Blast may deal Cold damage.

Frozen: When you use the power of frost against an enemy, they have a chance to become frozen in place. Whenever you deal cold damage to an enemy with a Frost Blast or a spell, they have a 10% chance + 15% per Frost archetype ability you have learned to gain the frozen condition. A creature with the frozen condition cannot move, but can free themselves by spending a move action.

Level 1: Shattering Scream (Sp)
Spend 2 Mana to use shatter, as the spell. This ability has a verbal component, and you may not use if it you are silenced. You may target frozen creatures as if they were crystalline creatures. Your caster level equals the number of frost archetype abilities you know.
Level 2: Breath of the North
You may spend 3 mana to reshape your Energy Blast into a 60 foot cone. You do not need to make an attack roll to hit targets, however anyone in the spread radius may make a Reflex save for half damage. For the purposes of archetype abilities, all damage dealt with Breath of the North is treated as cold damage in addition to whatever damage type it uses.
Level 3: Lingering Chill
Invest 8 Mana to activate Lingering Chill. Whenever you deal cold damage with a spell or effect, you deal 1d4 Dex damage, plus an additional 1d4 Dex damage 1 minute later. This can be resisted with a successful Fortitude save. Creatures that are immune to cold are immune to this Dexterity damage.
Level 4:
Level 5:
Level 6:
Your energy blasts may deal Electricity damage.

Whenever you use a Lightning Blast or a spell that deals lightning damage, you gain a +1 dodge bonus to AC for one round. This bonus increases to +2 at 3 Lightning archetype powers and +3 at 6 Lightning archetype powers.

Level 1: Blinding Flash (Sp)
Spend 2 Mana to cast daze monster, as the spell, with an exception. The range of this ability is equal to the range of your Lightning Blast. Your caster level equals the number of lightning archetype abilities you know. This ability has somatic components - you cannot use it if you do not have at least one free hand.
Level 2: Chain Lightning
You may spend X Mana as part of using your Energy Blast to make it 'jump' to secondary targets. For each 2 points of Mana you spend, you may pick an additional target for your Energy Blast, up to the amount of Lightning archetype abilities you know. Each secondary target must be within 30 feet of the previous target. You may not target the same creature twice with Chain Lightning. Roll ranged touch attacks and damage as normal. If you miss, the chain ends. For the purposes of archetype abilities, all damage dealt with Chain Lightning is treated as electricity damage in addition to whatever damage type it uses.
Level 3: Speed of Light
Invest 5 Mana to activate Speed of Light. While Speed of Light is active, you may spend 1 Mana to use Energy Blast as a swift action. If you deal at least 5 points of electricity damage to a single target while Speed of Light is active, you gain a +10 enhancement bonus to all speeds for 1 round.
Level 4:
Level 5:
Level 6:
Your Energy Blast may deal Force damage. An Arcane Blast never misses or makes a critical hit, and the damage die is reduced to d4.

For ever Arcane archetype ability you have, increase your mana pool by 1.
Level 1: Rune of Power
Invest 2 Mana to create a Rune. Creating a Rune takes 10 minutes. You may uninvest the Mana in a rune at any time.
Once it has been created, a rune may be discharged as a move action in order to gain one of two effects. Discharging a rune Spends your invested Mana.
Increase the damage of your next Energy Blast by 1 die (d6 for fire/cold/electricity, d4 for force). This bonus stacks with itself. You must use the Energy Blast within 1 minute or the bonus disappears.
Alternatively, gain 4 temporary Mana.
Level 2: Magic Missile
You may spend X Mana as part of using your Arcane Blast. For every 1 Mana you spend, increase the range increment of your Arcane Blast by 10 feet.
Also, you may freely divide the dice of your Arcane Blast between multiple targets - each target must be targeted by at least 1 die worth of damage, and each target must be within range as normal.
Level 3: Arcane Burst
Burn X Mana as a standard action. Deal 2Xd6 force damage to every being within a 20 foot radius. Every being that takes damage from Arcane Burst must also make a Will Save or be dazed for 1 round.
Level 4:
Level 5:
Level 6:

That's all the ideas I've got. Note that the 3 elemental schools have significant parallels: SLA, Blast Shape, Invest. Arcane deviates.

Composer99

2013-11-27, 12:48 PM

I was thinking about some Mage archetypes today, [snip]

Eldritch Blast: Standard action, touch attack, no save, deals 1d6/2 levels piercing damage. Penetrates DR/magic, but is stopped by other DR. Costs no mana. Is replaced by each archetype's first-level ability, so I'm thinking about changing it.

Mana: Mana pool size is equal to (INT score - 10) + 2*level. I say INT score - 10 because it's more friendly to odd numbers than "2*INT mod", and it's mechanically equivalent. Mana at level one is between 7 and 12 (for INT 15 and 20, respectively), and Mana at level six is between 20 and 30 (for INT 18 vs. 24+full Arcane passive). Mana can be spent, invested, or burned, as Gnorman's idea. Spent Mana regenerates at 1/round, invested mana is returned when an effect expires, and burned mana only returns at the beginning of the day. All saving throws for abilities that cost Mana have a DC of 10 + the number of archetype abilities from the ability's archetype you have learned + your Intelligence modifier.

Archetype Abilities (Sp, Su, or Ex): At each level, choose an archetype ability to learn. Each of an archetype's abilities has all previous abilities of that archetype as a prerequisite; for example, you cannot take the second Fire archetype ability without having previously learned the first.

Taking Eldritch Blast and running with it:

The damage type of Energy Blast is determined by your choice of archetype at first level. If you have access to multiple archetypes, you may choose which type of damage your Energy Blast deals.

The spells you've chosen to put on their lists are WAY too powerful for their level. Gonna tone that down a lot.
I believe the proposed Mana use was:
Invested - returned when it is uninvested
Spent - returns at beginning of day
Burnt - returns at a rate of 1 point/day
Thus making Burn a significant sacrifice for massive power. These abilities are balanced around that power recovery mechanic.

Unless otherwise noted, all archetype abilities are Supernatural (Su). Save DCs are 10 + the number of archetype abilities from that tree + Intelligence modifier. Some abilities reference temporary Mana. Temporary Mana may be spent as normal Mana, but may not be burnt. Unused temporary Mana disappears in a number of rounds equal to (Intelligence score - 10).

How about the following for unified level 1 & level 5 class features:

Energy Bolt: (as per Ajadea's name): At 1st level you can make an energy bolt attack, at will, as a standard action. The energy bolt has a range of 60 feet, uses a ranged touch attack, and deals damage as per the class features table.

The energy bolt's damage corresponds to the energy type of your archetype (Fire = fire damage, Frost = cold damage, Lightning = electricity damage, Arcane = force damage). If you have abilities from more than one archetype, choose the damage type for your energy bolt upon use.

The energy bolt ignores DR/magic but is affected by all other forms of damage reduction.

The energy bolt does not include the ongoing effects or conditions added by archetype traits. (See each archetype for details.)

Energy Blast: At 5th level, as a standard action you can spend 3 mana to launch an energy blast. The energy blast is similar to the energy bolt except as follows:
- The energy blast is a 15-foot radius burst from the origin.
- You do not make a touch attack; instead creatures within the burst area can make a Reflex save for half damage.
- Creatures that do not make their save also suffer the ongoing effects or conditions added by archetype traits. (See each archetype for details.)

A Note on Archetype Traits: I will go into more detail about Fire & Frost later since I have fleshed out an archetype for it, but for the others:
- the Lightning archetype adds a rider on to any effect causing electricity damage that the target becomes shaken and dazzled for # rounds, where # is the number of Lightning archetype abilities the caster has - targets can end the conditions early by spending a move action and making a Will save (DC 10 + caster Int mod + # as above).
- the Arcane archetype adds a rider on to any effect causing force damage that the target is staggered until the end of its next turn and the caster gets a bonus to ranged touch attacks & saves equal to 1/2(#), where # is the number of Arcane archetype abilities the caster has (round up) until the start of the caster's next turn.

The Fire archetype focuses on damage, and Fire Mages have powerful single-target and area-of-effect spells. Whenever you deal fire damage to a target, they are affected by the burning condition, as described below.

[I]Burning: At the beginning of each of your turns, a burning target takes fire damage equal to the number of Fire archetype abilities you know multiplied by the number of stacks of Burning on them. Burning has a duration of three rounds, but if it is reapplied, the duration is reset and the target gains another stack.

For example, a first-level mage with the Scorching Ray ability uses it and hits their target. The target gains a stack of burning, and takes 1 (number of Fire abilities) * 1 (number of stacks) = 1 damage at the beginning of the mage's next turn. If the mage hits with Scorching Ray again, the target will gain another stack of burning and will take 2 damage at the beginning of each of the mage's turns for the next three rounds.

Level 1: Scorching Ray (Sp): Your Eldritch Blast can now set enemies on fire. By spending 1 Mana, you can change the damage type of an Eldritch Blast to fire. A Scorching Ray is not affected by damage reduction.

Level 2: Burning Hands (Sp): You shoot a 15' cone of fire in front of you. Enemies caught in the cone take 1d6 damage per level and can make a Reflex save for half damage. Burning Hands costs # Mana.

Level 3: Fireball (Sp): A fireball generates a searing explosion of flame that detonates with a low roar and deals 1d6 points of fire damage per level to every creature within the area. Unattended objects also take this damage. You point your finger and determine the range (distance and height) at which the fireball is to burst. A glowing, pea-sized bead streaks from the pointing digit and, unless it impacts upon a material body or solid barrier prior to attaining the prescribed range, blossoms into the fireball at that point. An early impact results in an early detonation. If you attempt to send the bead through a narrow passage, such as through an arrow slit, you must “hit” the opening with a ranged touch attack, or else the bead strikes the barrier and detonates prematurely. Fireball costs # Mana.

Level 4: Implosion (Sp): All stacks of Burning come off for a huge burst of damage.

Level 5

Level 6: Meteor Storm (Sp): Basically the spell.

Your Energy Blast may deal Fire damage.
You deal extra damage equal to the amount of Fire archetype abilities you have whenever you use an Energy Blast or cast a spell that deals damage, and double that extra damage when using a Fire Blast or cast a spell that deals fire damage.

Level 1: Firestarter (Sp)
Spend 2 Mana to cast produce flame, as the spell. Your caster level equals the number of fire archetype abilities you know.
Level 2: Fireball
You may spend 4 Mana as part of using your Energy Blast to turn it into a Fireball. Fireball has a range of 100 + 10 ft. per Fire archetype ability known, and deals damage to every target within a 10 foot spread. You do not need to make an attack roll to hit targets, however anyone in the spread radius may make a Reflex save for half damage. For the purposes of archetype abilities, all damage dealt with Fireball is treated as fire damage in addition to whatever damage type it uses.
Level 3: Immolate
Invest 8 Mana to activate Immolate. Whenever you kill a target with weapon damage or fire damage, you gain 1d8 temporary Mana points.
Level 4:
Level 5:
Level 6:

How about this for the fire archetype:

Archetype Trait:
Whenever you hit a creature with an energy blast, archetype ability, or other ability/power/spell (whatever) dealing fire damage (but not an energy bolt), the target is burning and takes ongoing fire damage at the start of its turn equal to 1 + 2(#), where # is the number of fire archetype abilities you possess.

A burning creature can, on its turn, take a move action to attempt to put out the fires, and if it succeeds at a Reflex save (DC = 10 + your Int mod + # as above) the creature is no longer burning and does not take any further damage. (The creature still takes damage at the start of the turn it makes the effort to put out the fire.)

(1st-level Archetype Power)
Firestarter: As per Ajadea's ability.

(2nd-level Archetype Power)
Flame Aura: You can spend a swift action on your turn to invest 3 mana to have an aura of flames extend from yourself in a 5-foot radius. You can invest an additional 2 mana to have the aura extend an additional 5 feet, up to a maximum of 7 mana invested for a 15-foot radius aura. The aura lasts until dismissed, at which point you spend 1 mana and recover the remainder.

Creatures entering the area of effect or starting their turn in it take 1d4 + # fire damage (no save), where # is the number of fire archetype abilities you possess. While they are in the area of effect they cannot remove the burning condition caused by your archetype trait.

You can spend a free action to dismiss the aura and a free action to exclude creatures within the area of effect from the effects of the aura.

(3rd-level Archetype Power)
Burning Hands: As per Attila's ability.

(4th-level Archetype Power)
Essence of Flames: You are immune to non-magical fire and you gain fire resistance equal to 3 + 2(#), where # is the number of fire archetype abilities you possess. The range of your energy bolt and energy blast features, if you use them as fire effects, improves by 5 feet per fire archetype ability you possess.

(5th-level Archetype Power)
Immolate: As a standard action, invest 4 mana to immolate one creature within 120 feet (the creature must be within your line of sight/line of effect as normal). You can immolate additional creatures at a cost of 3 mana invested per additional creature.

You can end the immolation on one or more targets as a free action, or it ends automatically when a target is dead. Sustaining the immolation requires concentration.

While being immolated, a target takes 1d10 + # fire damage on the turn you use the ability and at the start of each of your following turns until you end the effect, where # is the number of fire archetype abilities you possess. A successful Fortitude save (DC 10 + your Int mod + # as above) halves the damage. While immolating a creature cannot remove the burning condition as per your archetype trait, but it can halve the ongoing fire damage by taking a move action.

(6th-level Archetype Power)
Firestorm: As a standard (or maybe full?) action, burn 5 mana to cause a firestorm within a range of 90 feet. The storm is a 30-foot-radius burst. All creatures in the burst take 4d8 fire damage (Reflex save halves).

For each additional mana you burn you can increase the damage inflicted by 2d8, up to a maximum of 6d8 additional damage.

A creature burning as a result of the firestorm adds 2 to the Reflex save DC to remove the burning condition.

Frost mages deal strong damage and can control the battlefield. Frost mages often

Frozen: When you use the power of frost against an enemy, they have a chance to become frozen in place. Whenever you deal cold damage to an enemy, they have a 40% chance + 10% per Frost archetype ability you have learned to gain the frozen condition. A creature with the frozen condition cannot move, but can free themselves by spending a move action.

Level 1: Frostbolt (Sp): Your Eldritch Blast can now freeze enemies in place. By spending 1 Mana, you can change the damage type of an Eldritch Blast to cold. A Frostbolt is not affected by damage reduction.

Level 2: Shatter: Your spells can shatter a frozen enemy to pieces. Whenever you use a supernatural or spell-like ability that requires an attack roll against target with the frozen condition, its critical threat range is increased by three times the number of Frost archetype abilities you know.

Level 3

Level 4

Level 5

Level 6

Your Energy Blast may deal Cold damage.

Frozen: When you use the power of frost against an enemy, they have a chance to become frozen in place. Whenever you deal cold damage to an enemy with a Frost Blast or a spell, they have a 10% chance + 15% per Frost archetype ability you have learned to gain the frozen condition. A creature with the frozen condition cannot move, but can free themselves by spending a move action.

Level 1: Shattering Scream (Sp)
Spend 2 Mana to use shatter, as the spell. This ability has a verbal component, and you may not use if it you are silenced. You may target frozen creatures as if they were crystalline creatures. Your caster level equals the number of frost archetype abilities you know.
Level 2: Breath of the North
You may spend 3 mana to reshape your Energy Blast into a 60 foot cone. You do not need to make an attack roll to hit targets, however anyone in the spread radius may make a Reflex save for half damage. For the purposes of archetype abilities, all damage dealt with Breath of the North is treated as cold damage in addition to whatever damage type it uses.
Level 3: Lingering Chill
Invest 8 Mana to activate Lingering Chill. Whenever you deal cold damage with a spell or effect, you deal 1d4 Dex damage, plus an additional 1d4 Dex damage 1 minute later. This can be resisted with a successful Fortitude save. Creatures that are immune to cold are immune to this Dexterity damage.
Level 4:
Level 5:
Level 6:

Edit: I think the save DCs may be too high by adding in Int mod? I've left that part out of save DCs in Frost archetype, though I fear they are too low at low levels.

How about this for the frost archetype:

Archetype Trait
Whenever you hit a creature with an energy blast, archetype ability, or other ability/power/spell (whatever) dealing cold damage (but not an energy bolt), the creature is "chilled" (fatigued) for 2(#) rounds, where # is the number of Frost archetype abilities you have.

Chilled creatures can end the effect early by spending a move action and making a Fort save (DC 10 + # as above).

(1st level Archetype Power)
Freezing Grasp: Standard action and spend 2 mana to make a melee touch attack. If you hit, deal 1d6 + # cold damage (# is number of Frost archetype abilities you possess). If you score a critical hit, deal 1d4 Dexterity damage. You can spend additional mana to boost the damage inflicted at a cost of 1 mana per +1d6 damage, up to a maximum of 5d6.

(2nd level Archetype Power)
Hard Rime: Invest 2 mana as a swift action to create a zone of icy terrain around yourself. The terrain moves with you. You can invest additional mana to extend the zone at a cost of 2 mana per additional 5 feet, up to a cap of a 15-foot radius.

Creatures entering any space in the zone treat it as difficult terrain and must make a Reflex save (DC 10 + # of Frost archetype abilities you possess) or fall prone.

You are immune to the effects of the zone. It is a free action to sustain or dismiss the zone. When dismissing the zone you spend 1 mana and recover the remaining invested mana.

(3rd level Archetype Power)
Icy Shackles: As a standard action, spend 3 mana to create a burst effect out to a 15-foot radius from your position. All creatures in the burst take 2d8 + # cold damage (# is the number of Frost archetype abilities you possess) with a Reflex save for half damage. Creatures who fail their Reflex save are partially immobilized until the start of your next turn: such creatures are flat-footed and cannot move, but can take all actions normally otherwise.

You can spend additional mana to extend the range of the burst, at a cost of 2 mana per additional 5-foot radius, to a maximum of 30 feet.

(4th level Archetype Power)
Heart of Winter: You are immune to non-magical cold and gain cold resistance (in a manner identical to fire resistance as per the Fire archetype). You also gain darkvision out to 60 feet - if you already have darkvision, your maximum range extends an additional 60 feet.

(5th level Archetype Power)
Lingering Chill: (Adapted from Ajadea's version.) As a standard action you can invest 5 mana to create a zone, up to 60 feet away, with a 10 foot by 10 foot area. Any creature in the zone at the start of its turn must make a Fort save (DC = 10 + # of Frost archetype abilities you possess) or become fatigued. Fatigued creatures which fail their save become exhausted, exhausted creatures which fail their save become paralyzed, and paralyzed creatures which fail their save become petrified (they are, in effect, frozen solid in ice).

You must concentrate to sustain the zone and you can invest additional mana to increase its size, at a cost of 3 mana per 5-foot increase (to a maximum of a 30 foot by 30 foot area).

(6th level Archetype Power)
Icy Breath: Burn 3 mana as a standard action to create a cone 60 feet long originating in your space.

Creatures in the area of effect take 5d6 cold damage (Ref save halves).

You can burn additional mana to extend the cone at a cost of 1 mana per 5 feet (maximum 90 feet) or to improve the damage at a cost of 1 mana per +1d6 damage (maximum 10d6).

D-naras

2013-11-29, 06:31 AM

Actually Gnorman's original idea was this:

Also, because I'm going crazy with the brainstorming, I have another idea for Mana usage: Spend, Invest, Burn. Spending mana produces less powerful but basically at will effects. Investing cuts down your supply to produce passive benefits. Burning permanently reduces your mana supply for the day, but brings about very powerful effects. which I absolutely love. Using this as the basis for mana use, let's see what I can come up with:

Mana: Mages have a reservoir of magical energy called mana equal to their Intelligence modifier + their level. Each of their magical abilities allows spending, investing and burning mana.

Mana that is spent returns at a rate of 1 per turn. Unless specified otherwise, spending mana is a Standard Action.

Mana invested is gone for as long as it is invested. In order to get invested Mana back, the mage must spend a number of Full round actions equal to half the mana that he wants to uninvest rounded up. The mage must do this in consecutive turns. If he can't he must start the process again. At the end of the last Full round action he regains all of the invested mana back. (So if a mage has invested 3 mana in 1 ability and 2 in another, he may spend 2 Full round actions to get back 3 mana, 1 Full round action to get back 2 or 3 Full round actions to get back all 5 mana). Investing any amount of mana in an ability, is always a standard action.

Finally, burned mana are regained after an 8 hour rest.

Arcane Magic(Su): A few of the mage's abilities mimic spells. Treat the caster level of those spells equal to the mage's level and any Save DC is equal to the original spell's + the mage's Int unless specified otherwise. A mage can always spend 1 mana to use the following spells, as spell-like abilities: Arcane Mark, Detect Magic, Mage Hand, Read Magic and Prestidigitation.

Magical Combatant (Su): All mages can call upon arcane energy to defend themselves.

Spend: By spending 1 mana, a mage can fire a magical bolt of energy as a ranged touch attack with a range of 60ft, as a Standard action. This bolt deals 1d8 + the mage's intelligence modifier piercing damage that ignores DR/magic. By spending additional mana, a mage can choose from the following list:

Damage: For each additional mana spent, increase the bolt's damage by 1+1/2 the mage's level.
Range: For each additional mana spent increase the bolt's range by 20ft.

Invest: By investing 1 mana, a mage gains +2 enhancement bonus to his armor, +1 resistance bonus to his saves and DR 2/magic as a standard action. These bonuses last for as long as the mana is invested. For each 2 additional mana invested, increase all these bonuses by 1.
Burn: By burning 1 mana, a mage can use one of the following effects, as a standard action:

Charm Person: As the spell with the same name. At 5th level, treat this as Charm Monster instead.
Sleep: As the spell with the same name, except targets affected get another save with a +4 bonus whenever a creature moves 10ft close to them (once per movement). At 5th level, treat this as Deep Slumber instead.
Hex: Hex targets one creature within 60 ft. If the target fails a DC 10+half the mage's level+the mage's Intelligence modifer Will save, he suffers a penalty equal to the mage's Int modifier on attack rolls, saves, skill checks and armor class for a number of rounds equal to 2 + the mage's level. This penalties can't be higher than your class level.

(Unified Class Feature)
Magical Weaving (Su): At 5th level, a mage becomes adept at excluding allies from his spells as well as investing mana in them. When you use a power, you may choose a number of allies equal to your Intelligence modifier. These allies become immune to your power. You may also invest mana in your allies, granting them some of you powers. You may perform the invest option of any of your class features but the ally gains the bonuses. You may only grant the basic effect to an ally, you may never invest more than the absolute minimum required for the power on any ally. You must touch your ally for 1 round per mana invested. You may still uninvest the mana like you would for powers affecting you.

Archetypes:

Fire mages focus on dealing high amounts of damage. You gain a bonus equal to the number of times you learned a Fire archetype to the damage of any power that requires you to Burn mana.
Level 1:
Fire Mage (Su):Add the following options on Magical Combatant:

Spend: A fire mage can send igniting bolts at opponents. By spending 1 additional mana, the mage's magical bolt can deal either fire damage, or half fire and half piercing. In addition, enemies 5ft away from the target suffer 1 fire splash damage and the target is set on fire, taking 1d6 fire damage at the start of his turn. The target may spend a full round action to attempt a Reflex save at a DC of 10+your Intelligence modifier+ the number of fire archetype's abilities you have learned. Each additional mana spent on damage or range, increases the splash and burning damage by 1.
Invest: By investing 1 additional mana, your magical protection grants you 5 resistance to fire and enemies attacking you suffer your Intelligence modifier as fire damage before rolling for damage. You may also perform a melee touch attack to deal the same amount of damage. You are considered armed while this ability is active. These effects increase along with the normal bonuses for spending mana at a rate of 5 fire resistance and 2 damage per 2 mana.
Burn: By burning 1 mana, you may create a 10ft burst of fire at a range of 100ft. Anyone caught in the burst is dealt 2d6 + your Intelligence modifier, plus 1d6 per level fire damage and catches on fire like your spend power on a failed Reflex save with a DC of 10+your Intelligence modifier+ the number of fire archetype's abilities you have learned. A succesful save halves the damage and negates the burning.

Level 2:
Firestarter(Su): Fire mages thrive in combat.

Spend: You can cause an opponents wounds to flare. By spending 1 mana, as a standard action, you may cause one target within 60ft, that has less than his maximum hit points to suffer 1d10+your Intelligence modifier damage. This damage bypasses any damage reduction but can't reduce a creature to less than 1 hit point. If the target is on fire he suffers additional damage equal to your Fire archetype's abilities. By spending additional mana you may choose from the following list:

Damage: For each additional mana spent, increase the damage by 1+1/2 the mage's level.
Targets: For each additional mana spent, you may choose 1 more target.
Range: For each additional mana spent, increase the ability's range by 20ft.

Invest: For each mana invested, you gain +2 to your Initiative, and as a swift action you may project an aura of fire in a 10ft radius around you. Any enemies in your aura suffer 1d6+your Intelligence modifier+the number of points invested as fire damage due to immense heat. A succesful Fortitude save halves the damage.
Burn: By burning 1 mana as a swift action, you superheat your fire abilities, causing them to ignore any amount of fire resistance for one turn. If you target a creature immune to fire, it still suffers half damage.

Level 3:
Pyromancer(Su): Fire mages of this level become artists of destruction.

Spend: By spending 1 mana, you can cause 1 5ft square to erupt in flames, dealing 2d4+2 damage at a range of 60ft. A successful Reflex save halves the damage. The save DC is 10+your Intelligence modifier+the number of fire archetype's abilities you have learned. By spending additional mana you may choose from the following list:

Damage:For each additional mana spent, increase the damage by 1d4+1.
Range:For each additional mana spent, increase the range by 20ft.
Area:For each additional mana spent, you may target another 5ft cube.

Invest: By investing 1 mana in this power, a fire mage gains a tiny wisp familiar that floats around the fire mage and sheds light as a candle. The wisp's purpose is to enhance the power of the fire mage's spells. Treat the minimum of any damage dice of your abilities that deal fire damage equal to the amount of mana invested in this ability+2. (So if the mage invested 4 mana in this ability, treat any damage die that rolled less than 6 as a 6. This ability can't increase a die's maximum result. A d4 can deal a maximum of 4, even if 4 points were invested.)
Burn: By burning 1 mana as a standard action, you may make a ranged touch attack with a range of 100 ft. If you succeed, the target suffers 2d10+your Intelligence modifier+1d10 per level as fire damage. If you miss and you have invested mana in Pyromancer, you may reroll the attack a number of times equal to the amount of mana invested in Pyromancer.

Level 4:
Pyre Power (Su): Once per encounter, if you kill an enemy with fire damage, you gain 1 temporary mana point at the beginning of your next turn.

Level 5:
Pyromaniac (Su): Burning is so much fun, that you even figured out how to set yourself on fire.

Spend: By spending 1 mana, you may ignite a flammable object or a creature at a range of 60ft with no save (putting out the fire works like your level 1 power). Alternatively you can fuel any number of existing fires, instantly dealing 1d6+your Intelligence modifier+twice the number of burning objects and creatures, on anything allready on fire. By spending additional mana you may choose from the following list:

Target: For each additional mana spent, you may target another object or creature.
Damage: For each additional mana spent, you may increase the damage by 1d6.
Range: For each additional mana spent, you may increase the range by 20ft.

Invest: By investing 5 mana in this power, you and all your gear become a swirling blaze that generally looks like your normal shape. You gain damage reduction 10/magic, and you gain immunity to fire, poison and critical hits. Your material armor becomes meaningless, although your size, Dexterity, deflection bonuses, and armor bonuses from your class abilities still apply to your Armor Class.

You can spend mana for powers while in this form, but you must make a Concentration check (DC 20 + the ability's level) for each power you attempt to use.

You cannot physically attack, except for touch attacks that deal 1d6 fire damage, you can burn mana but only for double the cost, and you can’t speak while in this form. You can’t run, but you can fly at a speed of 20 feet (perfect). You can pass through small holes or narrow openings, even mere cracks, with all you were wearing or holding in your hands. You are subject to the effects of wind, and you can’t enter water or other liquid. You also can’t manipulate objects or activate items, even those carried along with you. Continuously active items remain active, though in some cases their effects may be moot (such as items that provide armor or natural armor bonuses). Any flammable objects you touch begins to burn.
Burn: As a full-round action, you may burn 2 mana to simultaneously perform the Burn functions of any lower level Fire archetype abilities. Treat your level as half for these abilities.

Level 6:
Pyromaster (Su): Pyromasters always count as having spent or invested 1 more mana than they did on all their Fire Archetype abilities. In addition, the Pyromancer can burn 1 mana to create a raging inferno for 3 rounds. This power creates 20ft diameter burst at a range of 100ft. Anyone caught in the area must succeed at a Fortitude save with a DC of 16+your Intelligence modifier or become stunned. Any creature starting it's turn in the inferno, suffers 6d6+your intelligence modifier fire damage and must attempt to save versus the stun effect again.

Cold mages focus on controlling the battlefield. Any of you Spend powers that offer a Save, give an additional penalty to all Str- and Dex- based skill checks for one round in case of a failed save. The penalty is equal to the number of times you learned a Cold archetype.

Level 1:
Cold Mage (Su):Add the following options on Magical Combatant:

Spend: By spending 1 additional mana, the mage's magical bolt can deal either cold damage, or half cold and half piercing. In addition to the damage, a cold bolt creates an ice slick under the target's feet for 1 round. If the target attempts to move, he must succeed on a DC 10+your Intelligence modifier+ the number of cold archetype's abilities you have learned Balance check. Failure means it can’t move that round (and must then make a Reflex save or fall), while failure by 5 or more means it falls (see the Balance skill for details). Each 2 additional mana spent on damage or range, increase the ice slicks duration for 1 round.
Invest: By investing 1 additional mana, your magical protection grants you 5 cold resistance, the Benefits of the Endure Elements spell and anyone attacking you is immediately affected by the chill metal spell cast on his weapon with no save. If you were attacked with a natural weapon, the target suffers -2 penalty on attacks using that natural weapon due to numbness for 1 round. These effects increase along with the normal bonuses for spending mana at a rate of 5 cold resistance, 2 damage per roll for chill metal, and 1 extra round of numbness per 2 mana.
Burn: By burning 1 mana, the mage may mimic the effects of Wall of Ice with a caster level of 2+the mage's level. The Wall of Ice lasts only for 2+1 round per mage level. The save DC is equal to 10+your Intelligence modifier+ the number of cold archetype's abilities you have learned.

Level 2:
Haze Mage(Su): You can form freezing mists.

Spend: By spending 1 mana, as a Standard action, you may create freezing mist in 1 5ft square within 60ft. Any creature caught in the mist suffers 1d6+your Intelligence modifier as cold damage. A succesful Fortitude save negates the damage. The mist is so thick that it obscures all sight, including darkvision, beyond 5 feet. A creature within 5 feet has concealment (attacks have a 20% miss chance). Creatures farther away have total concealment (50% miss chance, and the attacker can’t use sight to locate the target). Any creature attempting to move through it progresses at double the movement cost. The mist remains for 2 rounds. By spending additional mana you may choose from the following list:

Area: For each additional mana spent, you may target another 5ft cube.
Range: For each additional mana spent, you may increase the range by 20ft.
Damage: For each additional mana spent, you may increase the damage by 1+half your level.

Invest: By investing 1 mana, you gain 10% concealment. For each additional mana spent, you may increase the concealment by 5% to a maximum of 50%.
Burn: By burning 1 mana, you may target a 10ft radius spead within 100ft. Creatures caught in the are entangled unless they succeed in a Reflex save. The creature can break free and move half its normal speed by using a full-round action to make a DC 20 Strength check or a DC 20 Escape Artist check. A creature that succeeds on a Reflex save is not entangled but can still move at only half speed through the area.Creatures that start their movement in the spread area, must succeed on a Fortitude save or suffer 2d6+your Intelligence modifier+your level cold damage and be slowed for 1 turn. This effect lasts for 3 turns.

Level 3:
Cryomancer (Su):

Spend: By spenind 1 mana point, a Cryomancer saps the heat of a living being withing 30ft. The target suffers 1d10+Intelligence cold damage. A succesful fortitude save reduces the damage by half. The cryomancer gains an equal amount of temporary hit points for 1 turn. By spending additional mana you may choose from the following list:

Damage: For each additional mana spent, increase the damage by 1.
Range: For each additional mana spent, increase the range by 10ft.
Duration: For each additional mana spent, increase the duration by 1.

Invest: By investing 2 mana in this power, the Cryomancer gains the ability to grant Strength penalties to targets hit by his cold powers. Whenever a creature suffers cold damage from one of the Cryomancer's powers, that creature gains a -2 penalty to it's strength for one round. This penalty increases by 2 for each 2 additional mana invested.
Burn: By burning 1 mana as a swift action, the Cryomancer can change the damage of all his cold powers, to bludgeoning damage for one round. This changes helps him circumvent cold resistances and immunities but allows normal damage reduction to apply to his powers. Any effects that trigger on a Cryomancer's cold damage trigger for bludgeoning damage during this round. In addition, all his powers cause the sickened condition for 1 round. Creatures damaged get a Will save to negate the sickened condition.

Level 4:
Creeping Cold(Su): Once per encounter, if you deal cold damage to an opponent that suffers from an effect that reduces his normal amount of actions, or his movement speed, you gain 1 temporary mana points at the beginning of your next turn.

Level 5:
Boreal Mage (Su):

Spend: By spending 1 mana, a Boreal mage can encase a creature in ice within a range of 30ft. The creature must succeed on a Reflex Save or be stunned for 1 round and suffer 1d6+your Intelligence modifier in cold damage. Each round after the first, on its turn, the creature may attempt a new Reflex or Fortitude saving throw to end the effect as a free action. On a failed save, it suffers the same damage. By spending additional mana you may choose from the following list:

Damage: For each additional mana spent, increase the damage by 1.
Range: For each additional mana spent, increase the range by 10ft.
Duration: For each additional mana spent, increase the duration by 1 round.

Invest: By investing 1 mana in this ability, if a creature successfuly saves versus a Boreal Mage's power, that creature must immediately reattempt the save with a DC of 10+your Intelligence modifier. For each 2 additional mana invested in this ability, increase the DC by 1.
Burn: By burning 1 mana, the Boreal mage can target a 30 ft cone burst. Anyone caught within suffers 5d6+your Intelligence modifier+your level in cold damage and is exhausted for 3 rounds. A successful fortitude save negates the damage and reduces the effect to fatigue.

Level 6:
Cryomaster (Su): Cryomasters always count as having spent or invested 1 more mana than they did on all their Cold Archetype abilities. In addition, the Cryomancer can burn 1 mana to use an effect similar to the Ice Storm spell but also including an Obscuring mist effect in the area and the damage is increased by your Intelligence modifier and level, half of which is cold and half bludgeoning damage.

Lightning Mages focus on mobility. If you have at least 1 mana invested in any power, you gain an enhancement bonus of 5ft to your speed. For each 2 additional mana you have invested in any ability, increase this speed by 5 ft. Finally, for each additional Lightning talent you learn, increase the base enhancement by 5ft.

Level 1:
Lightning Mage (Su): Add the following options on Magical Combatant:

Spend: By spending 1 additional mana, the mage's magical bolt can deal either electricity damage, or half electricity and half piercing. In addition to the damage, an electric bolt attempts to move the target 5ft away, unless the target succeeds on a Fortitude save with DC 10+your Intelligence modifier+ the number of lightning archetype's abilities you have learned. Each 2 additional mana spent on damage or range, increase the distance by 5 ft.
Invest: By investing 1 additional mana, your magical protection grants you 5 electric resistance and moving at least 10ft in a round, grants you +1 dodge bonus to your AC until the beginning of your next turn. These effects increase along with the normal bonuses for spending mana at a rate of 5 electric resistance and +1 dodge bonus per 2 mana.
Burn: By burning 1 mana, you transform yourself in to a bolt of lighting and move up to 100ft in a straight line, dealing 3d6+your Intelligence modifier+your level in damage to anyone caught in your path. A succesful Reflex save with DC 10+your Intelligence modifier+ the number of lightning archetype's abilities you have learned, reduces the damage by half. When the lightning bolt reaches the end of the line, it transforms back in to you, effectively teleporting you up to 100ft in a straight line from your original position. The bolt of lightning can only cross barriers that it can destroy. If it can't, you teleport adjacent to the barrier.

Level 2:
Thunder Mage(Su): After the lightning, comes the thunder.

Spend:By spending one mana, you deal 1d6+your Intelligence modifier+1 per 5ft you moved this turn+your level to any creature that is adjacent to you and any creature that was 5ft adjacent to you at any point during your turn(due to your movement), as sonic damage. In addition, any creature affected must succeed at a Fortitude save or become deaf for 3 rounds. A creature can only be affected once by this power per turn. By spending additional mana you may choose from the following list:

Damage: For each additional mana spent, increase the damage by 1 per 10 ft.
Range: For each additional mana spent, increase the distance that a creature must be in away from you in order to be affected by 5 ft.

Invest: By investing 1 mana in this power, you gain 5 sonic resistance and +6 to your armour class versus attacks of opportunity triggered by movement. For each 2 additional mana invested, increase the sonic resistance and AC bonus by 1.
Burn: By burning 1 mana as an immediate action, you teleport 5ft per level.

Level 3:
Electromancer (Su):

Spend: By spending 1 mana, the Electromancer targets either one creature and a point in space, or 2 creatures within 60 ft. Both targets must be within 10 ft of each other. Creatures targeted must succeed on a Reflex save or move 5 ft towards the other target and suffer 1d6+your Intelligence modifier, as electric damage. Success negates the movement and halves the damage. By spending additional mana you may choose from the following list:

Movement: For each additional mana spent, increase the forced movement by 5 ft. If the targets come in contact with each other, they suffer 3 damage per point spent in total for this power.
Distance: For each additional mana spent, increase the distance between the two targets by 5 ft.
Range: For each additional mana spent, increase the range of this power by 20ft.

Invest: For each mana invested in this power, you gain +1 deflection bonus to armor class. Whenever you are attacked and the opponent misses, if you choose, you may have him attack a creature adjacent to you that is within your attacker's reach or even himself. The attacker rerolls versus the new targets armour class and gains +1 bonus on the attack roll for each mana invested in this ability. If he targets himself, he gains a -4 penalty to his attack roll.
Burn: By burning 1 mana, the Electromancer may make a ranged touch attack at an opponent within 30ft as a standard action. If he succeeds, the creature is dealt 3d6+your Intelligence modifier as half electric and half piercing damage and is tethered to the Electromancer for a number of rounds equal to your level. As long as they are tethered together, whenever the Electromancer or the creature move, at the end of the movement the creature suffers 1d6+your Intelligence modifier+1 for each 5 ft of movement and must then attempt a Fortitude save. Failure means that the creature is still tethered to the mage and is moved 30ft away from him in a straight line (even over chasms or verticaly). Success means that the tether breaks and the power ends.

Level 4:
Gathering Storm (Su): Once per encounter, at the start of your turn, you gain 1 temporary mana point, provided you moved twice your base land speed during you last turn.

Level 5:
Polaris Mage (Su):

Spend: By spending 1 mana, a Polaris Mage can increase the gravitational pull of 1 5ft square within 60ft, to the point of dealing damage. Any creature in the square immediately suffers 1d10 bludgeoning damage and must succeed on Fortitude saving throw or fall prone and suffer an additional 1d10+your Intelligence modifier damage. By spending additional mana you may choose from the following list:

Damage: For each additional mana spent, you may target increase the falling damage by 1/2 your level.
Range: For each additional mana spent, you may increase the range by 20ft.
Area: For each additional mana spent, you may target an additional 5ft square.

Invest: By investing 1 mana in this ability, a Polaris Mage's feet lift from the ground. From now on, he can float a foot above the ground. Instead of walking he glides along, unconcerned with the hard earth or difficult terrain. While he remains within 1 foot of a flat surface of any solid or liquid, he can take normal actions and make normal attacks, and can move at his normal speed (he can even “run” at four times her normal speed). For each 3 additional mana invested, the Polaris mage can float an additional 5ft above ground. The mage can freely move up or down any amount of feet like walking up or down a slope.
Burn: By burning 1 mana a Polaris Mage can reverse gravity in a 30ft high, 10ft wide area for 3 rounds at a range of 100ft. Any creatures within begin falling upwards and reach the top in 1 round unable to do anything for the duration. If they reach the ceiling, they suffer normal falling damage. If a creature can fly, it must succeed at a DC 10+your Intelligence modifier+number of Electric archetype powers you have learned Balance check or also remain in the area for the duration.

Level 6:
Electromaster (Su): Electromasters always count as having spent or invested 1 more mana than they did on all their Lightning Archetype abilities. In addition, the Electromancer can burn 1 mana to change the positions of any number of creatures withing 40 ft of him. For each creature, he decides where it will be positioned and then that creature is allowed a Will Saving throw. Failure means that the creature is moved to the desired location. Success means that the creature suffers 6d6+your Intelligence modifier+your level damage. This damage is half electric and half sonic. Any creature is allowed to automaticaly fail this save, but no creatures knows where it will end up after the power, save for the Electromaster. An Electromaster can't target himself with this power.

Arcane mages focus on precision and disruption of supernatural effects. Every time you learn an Arcane archetype, increase your mana by 1.

Level 1:
Arcane Mage (Su): Add the following options on Magical Combatant:

Spend: By spending 1 additional mana, your bolt deals force damage and hits automaticaly with no roll needed but the damage die is reduced to 1d4.
Invest: By investing 1 additional mana, your magical protection grants you 3 temporary hit points that replenish at the beginning of your turn. For every 2 additional mana invested, you gain 1 more temporary hit point.
Burn: As an immediate action, you may burn 1 mana to attempt to disrupt a Supernatural or Spell-like ability. In order to be able to disrupt it, the ability must require at least a Move action to activate. The originator of the ability must succeed at a Will Save with a DC of 10+your Intelligence modifier+ the number of arcane archetype's abilities you have learned or be unable to perform the disrupted ability for 2 rounds. Any uses or costs of the ability are expended as normal. You are dazed during your next turn. You may ready an action to perform this ability. If you do, you are not dazed during your next turn.

Level 2:
Wizard (Su): You delve into the essence of magic hidden in tomes and grimoires.

Spend: By spending 1 mana, the wizard may perform a grapple, disarm or trip attempt at a range of 30ft. Use your Intelligence modifier+your level instead of the regular modifiers. The wizard can concetrate on this effect to keep it active without spending additional mana for a number of turns equal to his level. By spending additional mana you may choose from the following list:

Bonus: For each additional mana spent, increase your bonus on the check by 1. For every 4 points spent in this choice, your effective size increases by 1 step (you start as medium), allowing you to affect larger targets and granting an additional +4 bonus.
Range: For each additional mana spent, increase the power's range by 20ft.

Invest: By investing 1 mana in this power, the wizard gains +2 bonus to any intelligence based skill roll and his saves and AC against supernatural and spell-like effects and abilities. These bonuses increase by 1 for each 2 additional mana invested.
Burn: By burning 1 mana as a swift action, the wizard may activate a spell completion or spell trigger item without expending it.

Level 3:
Sorcerer (Su): Raw arcane might infuses your being.

Spend: You may use the level 1 spend option of any other mage archetype. If you use a power that you already have from another archetype, you are considered to have spent 1 more mana than the amount you actualy spent.
Invest: For each 2 mana invested in this power, you gain +1 to your Strength, Dexterity and Constitution scores, +1 enhancement bonus to your melee and ranged attack rolls with weapons, +1d6 force damage to your weapon damage rolls and +1 bonus to your natural armor.
Burn: As a free action, once per turn, you may burn 1 mana point to gain 2 temporary mana points that go away or become uninvested during the end of your next turn.

Level 4:
Font of Power (Su): Once per encounter you may uninvest any amount of mana currently invested and then invest any amount of mana in any power (to a maximum of your current mana) as a free action. If you do, you gain 1 temporary mana point at the beginning of your next turn.

Level 5:
Arcanist (Su): You may tamper with ambient mana.

Spend: By spending 1 mana, you hurl away any creatures surrounding you. Any creature within 5 ft of you that fails on a Fortitude saving throw, suffers 1d10+your Intelligence modifier+your level force damage and is pushed away 5 ft for each 5 damage that it sustained and it falls prone. A succesful save reduces the damage to 1d10 and prevents the prone condition. By spending additional mana you may choose from the following list:

Damage: For each additional mana spent, increase the damage by 1+1/2 the mage's level.
Range: For each additional mana spent, increase the range by 5 ft.

Invest: By investing 1 mana in this power, you may harm any creature that targets or includes you in the area of a hostile supernatural or spell-like ablity or effect. Such creatures suffer 1d6+your intelligence modifier in damage. For each additional mana invested, you may increase the damage by 1d6.
Burn: By burning 1 mana, you may attempt to dispel any active Supernatural or Spell-like effect with a duration more than 1 round. Roll 1d20+your Intelligence modifier+level+the number of arcane archetype's abilities you have learned. If you roll equal to or higher than 10+the effective caster level of the effect+ the effect's source appropriate Ability modifier (like Intelligence for mages) you succesfully end it, and the source of the effect can re-use it for 2 rounds. If the effect doesn't have a listed caster level, treat it as equal to it's source's hit dice or CR (in cases where the source is not a creature).

Level 6:
Archmage (Su): Archmages always count as having spent or invested 1 more mana than they did on all their Arcane Archetype abilities. In addition, the Archmage can burn 1 mana as an immediate action to change the target of any Spell-like or Supernatural spell or ability that is activated withing 100 ft of him, provided he is aware of it. The archmage is dazed during his next turn. If an archmage chooses to ready an action to use this power, he is not dazed.

Edit 2: It took a LOT of time, but I came up with a unified class feature as well as the whole fire archetype.

Edit 3: And now done with the cold archetype.

Edit 4: And now the lightning archetype.

Edit the 5th: All done! Wow that was fun and exhausting.:smallsigh::smallbiggrin:

D-naras

2013-11-29, 02:35 PM

Sorry for double posting, but I just want to post that I did a LOT of work on mage and could use some PEACHing.

Composer99

2013-11-29, 02:56 PM

Without going into any great detail let me say that I am impressed that you managed to find a way to include spend/invest/burn in each archetype ability for which it was appropriate.

D-naras

2013-11-30, 06:35 AM

Thanks. Obviously the numbers are wonky and need serious tinkering and I grant access to thematic abilities that no character in E6 will ever see, like Reverse Gravity, Waves of Exhaustion and Wall of Ice, but I think they are perfect fits for the archetypes.

D-naras

2013-12-01, 09:32 AM

I added an additional growing mechanic for each archetype.
Fire adds bonus damage equal to your Fire archetypes on powers that Burn mana, Cold adds a minor debuff on powers that Spend mana and offer saves, Lightning adds speed whenever you Invest mana (and I removed increased speed from specific Invest powers) and Arcane grants 1 mana per archetype.

AttilaTheGeek

2013-12-02, 12:05 PM

I return! I'm so sorry for having disappeared; I was shipped out to my grandparents' land of no wifi for the entirety of Thanksgiving week.

That is a lot of work, D-naras. I feel really bad telling you I won't use most of it :smallfrown:. An overarching goal is to promote balance between the party members by making every class an equally low tier, and that can't be done if a sixth-level caster can use more than 20 (Magical Combatant + 6 archetype powers times three ways to use mana per ability equals 21 different things) wide-ranging abilities while all a Warrior can do is hit stuff. I like that abilities have spending, investing, and burning instead of just one of the three, but I don't think every ability should involve every way to use mana.

I think there should be a framework for the archetypes agreed upon before we proceed to writing a whole bunch of different abilities. One thing I want to use to separate the archetypes is a different main mechanic for each one. I want a fire mage's combat style to focus on burning for damage over time, a frost mage's on freezing for control and shattering for damage, an arcane mage's on burning mana for direct damage, and so on. Taking that into account as well as what everyone else has said, how about this framework:

Level one: Basic competence in the archetype's role. Introduces archetype mechanic. Archetype mechanic (burn, freeze, etc) has a chance to be inflicted whenever the Mage deals damage of the archetype's type, and Energy Bolt can now deal damage of the archetype's type. The Mage can spend mana to use an SLA that inflicts the condition automatically on enemies.
Level two: Should make the Mage competent in the role. Lets the Mage do something additional and interesting with the mechanic, like shattering a frozen target or dealing extra damage to burning targets(?). Is passive, but still changes the way the Mage plays.
Level three: Should make the character fully capable of fulfilling the role. Either spend mana for a blast shape (Fireball, Cone of Cold, Lightning Bolt) or burn it to inflict a stronger condition (burning and panicked, frozen solid, etc) on a single target.
Level four: A signature ability of the archetype. Will let the mage spend Mana, and optionally burn it instead for an additional effect.
Level five: Extremely capable in the role, will probably let the mage Invest for buffs.
Level six: Again, a similar design space to the level five ability. Should be impressive, powerful, and cost lots of mana.

PairO'Dice Lost

2013-12-02, 12:20 PM

An overarching goal is to promote balance between the party members by making every class an equally low tier, and that can't be done if a sixth-level caster can use more than 20 (Magical Combatant + 6 archetype powers times three ways to use mana per ability equals 21 different things) wide-ranging abilities while all a Warrior can do is hit stuff.

Well, there's your problem: neither "low-tier" nor "warrior" implies "boring guy with only one or two options." The warmage and healer are both low-tier, yet they're casters with 17 options (0th and 1st level spells known) at 1st level alone, and the Tome of Battle classes, while being higher-tier than you'd like, are still warriors with options beyond "hit things" and "hit things harder."

One of the common problems people have with low-level play is that you don't really get much in the way of character abilities if you're not a caster, generally getting only one or sometimes two new feature per level--and sometimes not even that much; a 5th-level rogue only improves sneak attack and doesn't get new options. My group doesn't use E6 and hardly even plays below 5th level these days because it takes so long to get your combat style or other schtick up and running and in the meantime you have very few options.

If you were to give all of your classes a lot of interesting options to choose from to get players interested while keeping their tier low enough to make them easier for DMs to handle, that would be a major draw for your system and would set it apart from standard E6.

Ajadea

2013-12-02, 12:48 PM

Level one: Basic competence in the archetype's role. Introduces archetype mechanic. Archetype mechanic (burn, freeze, etc) has a chance to be inflicted whenever the Mage deals damage of the archetype's type, and Energy Bolt can now deal damage of the archetype's type. The Mage can spend mana to use an SLA that inflicts the condition automatically on enemies.
Level two: Should make the Mage competent in the role. Lets the Mage do something additional and interesting with the mechanic, like shattering a frozen target or dealing extra damage to burning targets(?). Is passive, but still changes the way the Mage plays.
Level three: Should make the character fully capable of fulfilling the role. Either spend mana for a blast shape (Fireball, Cone of Cold, Lightning Bolt) or burn it to inflict a stronger condition (burning and panicked, frozen solid, etc) on a single target.
Level four: A signature ability of the archetype. Will let the mage spend Mana, and optionally burn it instead for an additional effect.
Level five: Extremely capable in the role, will probably let the mage Invest for buffs.
Level six: Again, a similar design space to the level five ability. Should be impressive, powerful, and cost lots of mana.

To boil it down:

Spend (Basic competence, elemental typing)
Invest (Passive self-buff)
Spend/Burn (Blast shapes (Spread, Line and Cone), awesome status)
Spend (Signature ability)
Invest (Temporary mana gain mechanic?)
Burn (Kill 'em all. You'll be spending the next session plinking away with a crossbow for 1d8 damage and relying on the level 5 temporary Mana regain mechanic, because your real Mana is pretty much nil. But right now? Everyone else on the battlefield is deader than dead.)

Furthermore:
Mobility
- Mobile Caster (Spring attacking with spells) (No Cost)
- Levitation (Invest)
- Paralysis Spell (Spend)
Survival
- Mage Armor (+Deflection AC, Invest)
- Miss Chance (Spend)
- Spell Resistance (Burn)
Capstone
- Shape Blast (Avoid hitting your allies, Invest)
- Magical Echo (deal ~half damage of blast on later turn, Spend)
- Action Break (More blasts means more death, Burn)

AttilaTheGeek

2013-12-02, 01:41 PM

Well, there's your problem: neither "low-tier" nor "warrior" implies "boring guy with only one or two options." The warmage and healer are both low-tier, yet they're casters with 17 options (0th and 1st level spells known) at 1st level alone, and the Tome of Battle classes, while being higher-tier than you'd like, are still warriors with options beyond "hit things" and "hit things harder."

The key phrase in my quote, which I failed to emphasize, was "wide-ranging". You're right that it's not bad to have twenty abilities, and I admit that I did dismiss D-naras's work because it had so many abilities. When I saw that "abilities that no character would ever see in E6, like Waves of Exhaustion, Reverse Gravity, and Wall of Ice" were granted, I was afraid of a high-tier Wizard that would rule through breadth of abilities. Now that I look at it more closely, I like many of its abilities and I see that my fears were unfounded. D-naras's work won't be for naught.

If you were to give all of your classes a lot of interesting options to choose from to get players interested while keeping their tier low enough to make them easier for DMs to handle, that would be a major draw for your system and would set it apart from standard E6.

That is the goal: to give enough different abilities to keep combat interesting without giving out-of-combat abilities. Still, I don't want to give too much, because I think six abilities at first level is a bit excessive, but you are right and that is what I'm aiming for.

D-naras

2013-12-02, 07:11 PM

The key phrase in my quote, which I failed to emphasize, was "wide-ranging". You're right that it's not bad to have twenty abilities, and I admit that I did dismiss D-naras's work because it had so many abilities. When I saw that "abilities that no character would ever see in E6, like Waves of Exhaustion, Reverse Gravity, and Wall of Ice" were granted, I was afraid of a high-tier Wizard that would rule through breadth of abilities. Now that I look at it more closely, I like many of its abilities and I see that my fears were unfounded. D-naras's work won't be for naught.

That is the goal: to give enough different abilities to keep combat interesting without giving out-of-combat abilities. Still, I don't want to give too much, because I think six abilities at first level is a bit excessive, but you are right and that is what I'm aiming for.

That's a relief! :smallbiggrin: Even if you scrap the whole thing, it was still a really fun excercise. Though I have to point that I was extra careful to limit the powers to things that while Epic in scale, still were in the realm of possibility for magical effects. I did that by granting saves to everything that hurt creatures, and limiting durations down to 3 rounds at most. The mage is better served dealing damage but he still gains access to magic abilities that a wizard should have. I assume that you still want to model a stereotypical robe-wearing, conical hat-totting wizard that can blast you or curse you. (also it's more like 8 abilities at first level :smallredface:, although 2 are modifying your base spend and invest)

I also think it's wrong to not use the spend, invest and burn mechanic on every power. If you don't then what's of having the three different ways to use mana if you don't get the option on every power. I admit that my way is essentially granting 1 annoying and useful spend power, 1 buff that does 1-3 things for investing, and 1 powerful spell that essentialy scales per level for free to use whenever you burn mana. Spending all your mana may grant big effects, but next turn you are down to 1 mana only.

Maybe Gnorman's original idea was the best: 1 spell that grants a simple spend power that only scales by spending more mana, an appropriate invest option that grants a single scaling bonus depending on mana invested, and 1 powerful auto-scaling or even non-scaling burn version of the spending power.

edit: Are we still making talents? Because if we are, then we should use talent to define out of combat abilities and use archetypes for fighting styles. So a fire mage fights like every other fire mage, but out of combat the one uses his spells to become a social butterfly while the other to act as a sneak-thief. Create similar options for the other power sources.