RP low int high wis

[Cryov]

I've seen various threads about this and I have a zen archer monk with 7 int and 25 wisdom atm.

From a DM and RP point of view, would you consider it feasible for me to RP the character as slow to learn new things vs just flat stupid?
More "street" smart than "book" smart sort of thing.

[Yukitsu]

Unfortunately, wisdom isn't much of what street smart is either. Intelligence encapsulates more of street smart unfortunately, or rather, intelligence fully captures any variant of "smart" that you could really think of. Similarly unfortunately, slow intellectually essentially encapsulates what we generally refer to as stupid.

It would be perfectly fair for your character to simply be well, simple, but it is a case of wisdom to judge character, and that would encapsulate realizing that you're not exactly the sharpest tool in the shed, and simply not speaking up when other people who are more intelligent are discussing something that requires knowledge.

[Naomi Li]

Wisdom DOES cover things like judging a person's intentions, how to accomplish a service job effectively and get as much money as possible, and various other things.
I would imagine that, if your character made any plans, they would tend to be very simple but exceptionally resilient to the unexpected. And, working with somebody with higher intelligence, fully capable of pointing out ways that the plan could fail horribly, if not always capable of articulating exactly how those disasters could happen.

[khachaturian]

forrest gump?

[Amphetryon]

Forrest Gump is a good call, though he's arguably also got a decent CHA (see the Washington Monument speech). Low WIS high INT would be likely to spout sayings of family members, former teachers, or other early influences as they applied to specific situations, rather than thinking in original or creative ways. Low WIS high INT also would be likely to rely on initial impressions (Spot, Listen, Sense Motive) rather than investigating or thinking deeply on the basis of an individual's behavior (the various Knowledge checks).

[lordzya]

Wisdom is about PERCEPTION, so the goal will be to say very insightful things in very simple ways. A 25 wis character intuitively knows what's going on in everyone's head and all around him and can spot patterns in the world very easily, but doesn't have very much machinery to refine that info into, say, a full scale plan. So just point out important things for the smart people to use.

[Abaddona]

Someone like Luffy from One Piece manga (or many other shounens)? Or in other words: simple guy, somewhat slow, but with great intuition and who relies heavily on his gut feelings to make judgments. He won't be able to create complex plans but in the middle of action he may get the feeling what would be best thing to do and will act accordingly.

[Chronos]

I'm currently struggling with this, too. Mostly the way I'm dealing with it is by frequently (in-character) asking the other party members for their advice. He may not be too smart, but he knows his limitations, and knows who's smarter than him. He might not have all the answers, but he does have most of the questions.

[Morty]

Such a character has trouble with grasping complex concepts and abstract thinking. He also has little academic, theoretical knowledge. However, he is very practical-minded, perceptive and strong-willed. He's also probably aware of his limited mental capacities.

[ArcturusV]

Funny ain't it the various answers you get about mental stats. I know the typical example of "High Int, Low Wis" they used to give in DnD was the Absentminded Professor archetype. That if you were the guy who had 25 int, 7 wis to flip it around, you'd be able to derive Fermat's Theorum, but basically can't remember where you put your house keys or what day it is, etc.

Which interestingly gives the flip view of what would Low Int, High Wisdom be. Someone who has a lot of common sense, very practical, used to "outside the box" thinking (Okay, the test is to get the silver bell at the end of this obstacle course. The High Int, Low Wis character might solve all the puzzles, figure out the best way through the obstacles, etc. The high wis, low Int guy probably just circles around the obstacles, bypassing them entirely to set the course record). Might not know their Trig, but isn't going to get lost on their way to the grocery store they've been to every week of their life for the last 6 years (And yes I've known a few otherwise brilliant people who have done that).

Course the other way, and this would make sense with Intuitive Attack, is that you play into Animal type. Animals in the game do have low int, but high wisdom. I don't think most people would say a dog is "Stupid" despite having a 2 Int. But they have a decent (14 if I remember correctly) wisdom. They can problem solve, they know how to act without being told everything (Tasks as opposed to Tricks for example). So you have a guy who has a natural grasp of things. He does go off his gut check. He has sharp senses and acts upon them. He trusts the evidence of his eyes/ears over the deductive reasoning of others. The sort of person likely to spout things like "looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, it's a duck" line of reasoning.

Course, the thing to remember is... 7 Int isn't "moron" by any stretch of the imagination. 8-10 is "Average" intellect. So you're not really at Forrest Gump levels. I'd peg that closer to 5-6. 7 is just...the guy who's more or less average but takes a bit to get there. He does his multiplication on his fingers or counts out objects rather than doing it in his head. Things like that.

I know there's a tendency that, because DnD heroes are Heroes, and thus generally "better" than the average man, that we look at "average" or slightly below average stats as some crippling flaw. Just got to keep in mind the average schmuck commoner, shopkeeper, etc, that you run into probably has 8 int, maybe 9. You're not really all that measurably "dumber" than them. That having PCs with 14 int or something makes them exceptionally clever and analytical compared to the populace (Not merely acceptably average).

Just a thought. I know a lot of RPers over the years have this thought that enters their mind like "... omg... my charisma is 8! I am a ugly SOB who is shy as hell and can't speak his mind or lead a starving man to a roast beef dinner!"

[G.Cube]

"Gorgor has traveled many moons, seen much trouble, but Gorgor knows not what these strange, pink monkey people are."

[Chronos]

Actually, a 7 or 8 is about one standard deviation below average, which is generally enough to make a noticeable difference. You're right, though, that that's still a far cry from absolute idiocy. Someone with a 7 Int is someone that prompts teachers to say things like "Oh, he's such a hard worker", not "Have you considered enrolling him in our special education program?".

[Red Fel]

Ultimately, Int is rather well-defined as a stat - in essence, it's knowledge. Book learning, academic learning, accumulated tidbits of intelligence acquired over a life of learning and experience.

Wis, however, is nebulously defined. Part of it is perception, such as your ability to see and hear (which paradoxically gets better with age); part of it is force of inner will, such as Will saves; and part of it is some sort of "common sense" and such. Any or all of these can be relevant or played up.

For example, someone who can't read a book but can see a fly on a wall a mile away has low Int, high Wis. Someone who doesn't know Neville Chamberlain from Wilt Chamberlain but always has a parable about the nature of the universe is low Int, high Wis. Someone who doesn't know how to perform long division but knows exactly who he is and fears nothing is low Int, high Wis.

It all depends on how you want to play it, really. The low Int side doesn't require you to play an idiot savant, just someone who isn't as quick on the mental math. The high Wis side can be whatever you want it to be, really.

[gorilla-turtle]

Isn't :elan: Low Int, High Wis?

I reckon that someone with Low Int, High Wis, is someone who actually is smart, but not educated. I see them using small words and short sentences, but managing to say a lot with them all the same. They might not know all of the information, but are still more than capable of surprising people with an incredible sharp wit, maybe more so than a High Int, Low Wis person.

Also, Goofy from Disney. Not much going on in that walnut of his, but he's probably more astute than Donald is, or even Mickey in some cases. He's just... goofy!

[Dusk Eclipse]

:elan: is Low Int Low Wis "absurdly" high Cha, I would say :durkon: is a better example of "low" int (I don't peg him as having less than 8) high Wis.

[Flickerdart]

"It is better to keep silent and be thought a fool than open your mouth and remove all doubt."

[gorilla-turtle]

:elan: is Low Int Low Wis "absurdly" high Cha, I would say :durkon: is a better example of "low" int (I don't peg him as having less than 8) high Wis.

The Lotus Eater Machine strip and his latest secret plan alone throw the idea of Elan having too low Wis into question. It might not be -as- high as Durkon (who definitely is an example of this), but I think Elan counts. He's not too bright, but he's very Plucky. He just happens to also be hot and passionate.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Not really, bards have high will saves.

[SouthpawSoldier]

Maybe a philospher? Again, not a problem solver, or skilled at anything, but insightful.

Intuition heavy too; low INT high WIS might make a good Jedi; someone who instinctively "feels" their way through life, instead of thinking about it.

[Hiro Protagonest]

When you come across an adamantine door with a puzzle on it... you dig a tunnel through the stone next to it.

[Thiyr]

Personally, I find that between int and wis, the big difference isn't the end, but the means. As Arcturus's example was going for, higher int will look at a problem, puzzle it out, and find solutions. Wis, on the other hand, intuits. It doesn't think through a problem, it feels through it. Int tells you that based on troop movements seen in the past, historical precedent, and the weak resistance, you're walking into an ambush. Wis says "I've got a bad feeling about this", not due to precognizance but from subtle cues that register in the mind, like quieter wildlife, etc.

In short, put your character and their inverse in a math competition and you've both got good odds. Just hope that you don't need to show your work.

[gorilla-turtle]

Not really, bards have high will saves.

If he had a high will save, he wouldn't have been at risk of the illusion at all, and that wasn't even what I was talking about in the first place. Strip 889, 890, and 891. His -words- during those parts, while filled with bunny-eared pluck-osity, seem pretty darn wise to me. Enough that he even earned an apology and the respect of Roy.

...though Durkon does consider him Weak-Willed, and as a Cleric he would be the type to know. I guess he's more Low Int, Medium Wis, if anything. I feel like he's not half bad a character to model having decent Wisdom but low Int on. The only real knowledge he has is from his Bardic Training over the years, but his insight is capable of providing fresh outlooks on situations, even if it's filtered through a non-sensical brain.

I like the above two responses: Low Int but High Wis don't know exactly what they're doing, but they can feel it out all the same.

[Yukitsu]

Maybe a philospher? Again, not a problem solver, or skilled at anything, but insightful.

Intuition heavy too; low INT high WIS might make a good Jedi; someone who instinctively "feels" their way through life, instead of thinking about it.

Philosophy is mostly categorical logic. Typically, if someone is claiming to be insightful and philosophical without being logical, they aren't really philosophers, they're mostly just sophists, which is more a charisma based thing.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

Doesn't talk much since he isn't very eloquent, but not repulsive as with low Cha? Sounds to me like he is the epitome of closed mouth, open ears.

[No brains]

In my current 4e group, I play a cleric of Ioun with crappy INT, but incredible WIS. The best way I can simplify how they act is that they admire people who are smart, because the character recognizes that they are not very smart. Also, their plans are amazing for the first two steps and then swiftly fall apart. Like a saving throw for the party, low INT/ high WIS can't keep bad things from happening, but makes certain they never get worse.

[Tevesh]

I've always thought of a high Wisdom being a bonus to Will saves is perceiving the manipulation and divorcing your thoughts from the intrusion.

I would also play high Wis, low Int as someone who doesn't say much but when they do, its on point. They perceive they're 'slower' than others, but they understand that means they have more time spent on watching the world.

"It is better to keep silent and be thought a fool than open your mouth and remove all doubt." <- pretty much sum up what I think of as high Wis, low Int.

[Xerlith]

Wouldn't Logan (Wolverine) fit this archetype? He relies on his instincts, but isn't really into thinking. Then again, he's impulsive, really so. Strange guy.

[Sam K]

If he had a high will save, he wouldn't have been at risk of the illusion at all, and that wasn't even what I was talking about in the first place. Strip 889, 890, and 891. His -words- during those parts, while filled with bunny-eared pluck-osity, seem pretty darn wise to me. Enough that he even earned an apology and the respect of Roy.

...though Durkon does consider him Weak-Willed, and as a Cleric he would be the type to know. I guess he's more Low Int, Medium Wis, if anything. I feel like he's not half bad a character to model having decent Wisdom but low Int on. The only real knowledge he has is from his Bardic Training over the years, but his insight is capable of providing fresh outlooks on situations, even if it's filtered through a non-sensical brain.

I like the above two responses: Low Int but High Wis don't know exactly what they're doing, but they can feel it out all the same.

Elan's wis is probably very low, lets look at the facts:

1. Completely oblivious to people's nature or intentions. Doesn't notice Haley's crush, requires big flaming letters to realize Tarquin is a bad guy.
2. Frequently takes foolish risks.
3. Jumps to completely illogical conclusions on how things work: assumes that half orc ninja is a super hero.
4. Worse than Belkar on spot and listen checks.
5. Worships banjo. If wisdom governs understanding of the nature of the divine, that's pretty bad.

In fact, I would actually rate him lower wis than int. He must have enough int to get atleast a couple of skill points. He could easily be wis 3 and still function the way he does in the comic, though.

[gorilla-turtle]

Elan's wis is probably very low, lets look at the facts:

1. Completely oblivious to people's nature or intentions. Doesn't notice Haley's crush, requires big flaming letters to realize Tarquin is a bad guy.
2. Frequently takes foolish risks.
3. Jumps to completely illogical conclusions on how things work: assumes that half orc ninja is a super hero.
4. Worse than Belkar on spot and listen checks.
5. Worships banjo. If wisdom governs understanding of the nature of the divine, that's pretty bad.

6. In fact, I would actually rate him lower wis than int. He must have enough int to get atleast a couple of skill points. He could easily be wis 3 and still function the way he does in the comic, though.

Let's tackle those out of order.

6. I believe it was Vaarsuvius who noted that he's definitely got a negative Int (given that he wouldn't be able to cast a single Wizard Cantrip), and then Belkar who noted it to be Elan's dump stat (offhand joke about Belkar's activity in the Arena, when he was actually freeing the Dinosaur). His skill points come from being a Bard.

4. Given that the Oots are in the upper levels, if one isn't actively pumping a stat or checks, it wouldn't be much of a surprise that they aren't good at it. Listen might be a Bard skill, but he doesn't have many points to spare and it isn't vital for the class' abilities like Perform. Spot outright isn't such a skill at all. (And Belkar's spot and listen abilities aren't all that great anyway, so he's not much of a benchmark). So Elan having poor Spot and Listen checks doesn't prove anything; pretty sure most of the Order, including Roy and Durkon, neglected those skills.

5. Considering Thor and Odin were both going to accept Banjo into their Pantheon, I think it's certainly okay if Elan worships him.

2. He's a PC, that's what he's practically stereotyped to do. Roy still kept jumping and climbing things even after doing that lead directly to him getting killed, and what not.

1. Haley and Tarquin are both masters of bluffing and what not. I think in the former case, she hadn't actually shown -HIM- too many direct hints (even if the rest of the world could see it, which is common in a lot of relationships anyway), and in the latter, the only real hints Tarquin gave Elan that he didn't pick up on were the Ominous Foreshadowing and the Phoenix/Pegasus dinner. Otherwise, Tarquin tried to genuinely love his son, and did fool even a chunk of the Forum / TvTropes into thinking he was, as Elan put, the Roy to the Kingdom's Belkar. I think it actually speaks a lot that he did start putting two and two together once he saw how Tarquin naturally runs things, rather than the full day of play and bonding.

3. Considering how he's been right about his leaps enough to influence the plot, (ahd the cases where he's completely wrong are usually just used for comedic effect.... actually, I almost wonder now if he's wrong on purpose when it doesn't matter (and as someone who is super genre savy, he'd be able to determine when there's room for a joke or not) and is not only a case of Bunny-Eared Laywer, but also Crouching Moron, Hidden Badass) I'd be willing to let that slide. Admitedly, it requires a heck of a lot of oil to slide, but I could still see it sliding.

I retracted the idea that he has "High" Wis, but I'd still say his isn't his dumpstat like his Int is.

As for Wolverine... I honestly don't know much about the character beyond a few video games of him, and what little stereotype I know of him in general popular culture, and that is that he's pretty smart overall (and given his age, he should be), but that he doesn't seem like it because he's always in Barbarian Rage mode.

[Chronos]

I think that in the Giant's world, there's a Genre-Savvy skill that's based on Cha, and that Elan has maxed ranks in it.

[zlefin]

The best example of this I've seen is Jedd Clampett iirc; the patriarch of the family on the Beverly hillbillies.