Prestige Classes for a greatword Fighter

[Rumo]

Hi,

after having received so much valuable advice on other characters in my party, I could also use some input on a friend's character, a level 3 Fighter who wields a greatword. What prestige classes could she aim for?

I see that the Frenzied Berserker is rather popular, but the possibility of her chopping the remaining party into pieces seems rather scary to me.
Another class I remembered is the Weapon Master, who seems to get some awesome specials, but ... is my understanding correct that he does not gain additional attacks? Seems to make him pretty useless.

Thanks in advance,
Rumo

[Studoku]

Is there a reason you thought weapon master didn't grant you more attacks? As far as I can tell, it gives full BAB and iteratives as with any other class.

There are so many prestige classes available for fighters and pretty much any that are full BAB will be better than fighter itself. Can you be more specific as to what your friend is looking for?

[LordConcrete]

:smallannoyed:
3 levels of fighter.

You could do Dungeon-Crashing Variant Fighter for another level.
Barbarian dip for Pounce?
Warhulk is cool, but loses iteratives.

Are you looking for more attacks or?

[The Trickster]

If you can spare the feat and skill points, Horizon Walker is a flavorful option for fighters. Getting the knowledge (planes) high enough may take some time though.

[ArcturusV]

If you can swing it, Maho-Bujin is good for a one level dip. Gets Iterative Attacks on +3 BAB instead of +5. Fighter should love that. And something he could enter next level presuming he could get Tainted enough.

If you can swing a single level in something that gets spells (Mystic Ranger? Bard? Sorcerer? Duskblade, etc) you can work into Anointed Knight. Really the only reason you even need the spellcasting in it is because it's powers come from Alchemy, which requires spellcasting to use. Otherwise it's completely mundane in case the player has concerns about corrupting the concept from Greatsword Fighter to "Magic Man who has a Pointy Stick". Anointed Knight I like as it not only buffs you, but buffs your weapon as well, and that's pretty much all it does, so it's pretty easy to fit into "Weapon Master/Great Fighter" concepts.

[Rumo]

I'm sorry, I suppose I should have been more specific.
Regarding the Weapon Master, I remembered him from Neverwinter Nights 1, and although he seems to have been changed a bit between 3.0 and 3.5, his specials still look rather good to me. My train of thought is that a heavy weapon with crit x3 combines very well with a class that reduces the crit range from 20 to 17-20. There may be other and better choices, but I don't have the books, so I used this link (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Weapon_Master_(3.5e_Prestige_Class)) for information. No additional attacks listed there if my understanding is correct.

I heard that for ideal Fighter builds 3rd level Fighter is not much recommended already. But as far as D&D is concerned this is a beginners' group. To get into this new playing system, she prefered to keep things relatively simple. A neutral evil Fighter girl with some rather violent tendencies and a big sword. So when selecting prestige classes, I think she would prefer to just add something to this simplicity rather than turn herself into something weird, like for example the Psychic Warrior.

[Studoku]

If you can spare the feat and skill points, Horizon Walker is a flavorful option for fighters. Getting the knowledge (planes) high enough may take some time though.
It needs knowledge (geography) which is easy enough- just take a level of ranger.

[Manly Man]

If you don't mind missing out on 3 points of BAB and being lawful, you can go for Kensai in Complete Warrior. You get a signature weapon to enchant all on your own, as well as a few other nifties, like sharing your Armor Class.

[Runeclaw]

If she's already got Fighter 3, she probably may as well go ahead and pick up Fighter 4.

Barbarian 1 with the Spirit Lion Totem alternate class feature is highly recommended. This gives her Pounce, which allows her to make a full attack after charging. Won't may any difference until character level 6, but will be nice from there on up. And hey, Rage! If you take it instead of Fighter 5, you're losing nothing.

So I'd recommend Fighter 4 / Barbarian 1. Then start thinking about Prestige Classes.

EDIT: It's worth asking whether your group uses multiclassing XP penalties? And if so, what race is she?

[Runeclaw]

Also, as for multiple attacks, all the Prestige classes list BAB as just "+ whatever" without showing the iteratives. The bonus from Prestige Classes is added to the bonus from your other classes and used to determine your iterative attacks normally.

Honestly, the base classes should have been listed this way as well, for simplicity's sake. Your BAB is your BAB is your BAB. The other values listed on the core classes are just reminders of the iteratives.

[Manly Man]

Not a prestige class, but if you were to convince her to take one more level of Fighter and then go into Warblade, she could start out with second-level maneuvers available at the get-go (Wall of Blades is one of the best 'NO' buttons in the game, and Mountain Hammer will fit her using big, two handed weapons), and as long as she doesn't miss any more than two more initiator levels, then she can still access ninth-level maneuvers (WHOO TIME STANDS STILL). There isn't much in terms of prestige classes available that she'd probably like if she followed this path, save Master of Nine (which would be very feat-heavy and require a lot of skill points), although she could help out with that a lot by taking two levels as a Swordsage, then go Warblade and use the Master of Nine to advance her Warblade maneuvers. She'll be down a little bit on BAB, but she'll still end up getting that fourth attack by the end of her non-epic progression, and have some extra tricks that she couldn't have otherwise (taking two stances at once, for example).

So, something like: Fighter 4/Swordsage 2/ Warblade X/Master of Nine 5/Warblade X, possibly replacing that fourth level of Fighter with another of Swordsage (more skill points, better saves, a couple of extra abilities, and a lot more maneuvers).

[Thurbane]

Dragon Lord (Dragon Magic) is very easy for a single classed Fighter to enter, but you'll need 9 ranks of Intimidate first.

Tactical Soldier (Miniatures Handbook) isn't a bad option for a couple level dip - you'll need +5 BAB and some cross-classed ranks in Sense Motive.

[Averis Vol]

If you're looking for a simple build for a neutral evil character, you could always take that 4th level of fighter, a 1 level dip in barbarian then jump right into ravager. It isn't obnoxiously over powered, but it gets something new basically every level (which is a good and potentially bad thing, depending on how well she remembers her special abilities) and keeps up with full baB, plus it has some great roleplaying opportunities built in seeing as ravagers are basically savagely branded, so you always know who is one.

[Mjollnir075]

I think everyone needs to slow down a minute with the crazy builds and high-powered classes/dips. The OP posted a link from DnDwiki and considers Psychic Warrior to be strange.

Rumo, why don't you first give us the books that are available to your group, and we can work from there. Once we have an idea of what you have, you can get some help that you can actually use.

Oh, and before I forget, all the DnD Wiki sites are pretty well frowned upon on this site. Reasons being that it's mostly homebrew (as in, user created) and there isn't any real sense of balance. That Weapon Master class you linked to I believe is homebrew, and not from 3.5, though maybe I'm wrong?

[Averis Vol]

I think everyone needs to slow down a minute with the crazy builds and high-powered classes/dips. The OP posted a link from DnDwiki and considers Psychic Warrior to be strange.

Rumo, why don't you first give us the books that are available to your group, and we can work from there. Once we have an idea of what you have, you can get some help that you can actually use.

Oh, and before I forget, all the DnD Wiki sites are pretty well frowned upon on this site. Reasons being that it's mostly homebrew (as in, user created) and there isn't any real sense of balance. That Weapon Master class you linked to I believe is homebrew, and not from 3.5, though maybe I'm wrong?

Yea it's homebrew. Weapon master got updated to kensai in complete warrior and the original is in sword and fist.

[Tevesh]

If you want to use a website, you want: http://dndtools.eu/

They don't use any 3rd party stuff, so if it is on there there's a good chance its legit. DnD Wiki is just horrible. :(

And I agree lay off the optimization. We don't want each party member to suddenly way outshine each other.

[Thrawn183]

Sounds to me like multiclassing to Truenamer would make the best use out of a greatword.

[mabriss lethe]

Sounds to me like multiclassing to Truenamer would make the best use out of a greatword.

I dunno Dungeoncrasher can be fantastic at using a greatword. As long as the greatword is "defenistrate."

[Zombulian]

Sounds to me like multiclassing to Truenamer would make the best use out of a greatword.


I dunno Dungeoncrasher can be fantastic at using a greatword. As long as the greatword is "defenistrate."

stole my jokes :smallbiggrin:

[Rumo]

If you want to use a website, you want: http://dndtools.eu/

They don't use any 3rd party stuff, so if it is on there there's a good chance its legit. DnD Wiki is just horrible. :(


Thanks for this information. I simply didn't know that, and usually forked with this Wiki. Dndtools often had only the 3.0 version, or simply lacked what I was looking for. But I certainly don"t want any homebrew stuff in our game.

Also thanks to everyone who sent in Fighter builds and class suggestions. Every input is valuable, as maybe she will reconsider to play something more complex.
@Mjollnir: Our DM's general attitude is to allow anything that's in a book unless there is a very good reason not to.

[Rumo]

Ravager was an interesting idea, but I suspect she's not that evil, and certainly not in any religious way. But taking a deeper look into Frenzied Berserker, I'm coming to like it more and more. I play a Conjuration Specialist Wizard, so whenever necessary I could stop her from killing us with a little bit of grease. :smallsmile: Is that alone safe enough to avoid getting a greatword or two into your face?

In case it's going to be FB, what feats would be a good choice (Lvl3 onwards, I'm sure the DM will grant her a takeback on Dodge, as we practcally haven't played after leveling)?

[Averis Vol]

Ravager was an interesting idea, but I suspect she's not that evil, and certainly not in any religious way. But taking a deeper look into Frenzied Berserker, I'm coming to like it more and more. I play a Conjuration Specialist Wizard, so whenever necessary I could stop her from killing us with a little bit of grease. :smallsmile: Is that alone safe enough to avoid getting a greatword or two into your face?

In case it's going to be FB, what feats would be a good choice (Lvl3 onwards, I'm sure the DM will grant her a takeback on Dodge, as we practcally haven't played after leveling)?

in PHB II theres a feat called steadfast determination. It lets you use your con instead of wisdom for will saves, as well as not failing fort saves on a nat 1. With a little bonus stacking, you can just breeze by your save practically every time (barring 1's of course). And it only requires endurance, and while the feat isn't great, a 2 level dip in ranger gets you it and some other nice benefits (wands and scrolls of ranger spells, access to nemesis and the like.)

[Rumo]

in PHB II theres a feat called steadfast determination. It lets you use your con instead of wisdom for will saves, as well as not failing fort saves on a nat 1. With a little bonus stacking, you can just breeze by your save practically every time (barring 1's of course). And it only requires endurance, and while the feat isn't great, a 2 level dip in ranger gets you it and some other nice benefits (wands and scrolls of ranger spells, access to nemesis and the like.)

That feat is interesting. Her Wis is +1 and her Con +3, so the gap isn't huge, but it's still better than Iron Will. I might also consider buffing her with Bear's Endurance then.

Still I don't understand the conclusion of almost automatic save successes. Her AC is low, so she would get hit rather often. Let's say she gets hit with 15 points of damage before she kills the opponent (which on level 7 upwards should be a realistic number, right?), to my understanding she needs to make a Will save of 25. Let's say she took 6 Levels of Fighter first, she has a basic Will +2. Adding Steadfast Determination raises it to +5. So she would need a 20 to succeed, or there is one round of attack against the party members. (On the other hand, an archer and a wizard might be able to just stay away far enough from her in most outdoor scenarios.)

[Rumo]

I mentioned Grease before. Can the FB really do anything but fall on her face when greased? I read:"While frenzied, the character cannot use any Charisma-, Dexterity-, or Intelligence-based skills", and to my understanding, moving in a greased area requires a Balance check.

[Arc_knight25]

Windwalker from Faith and Pantheons is a Greatsword wielding cleric that flies.

These are the Prereqs you need.

To qualify to become a windwalker, a character must fulfil the following criteria.
Race: Human, half-elf, or air genasi.
Base Attack Bonus: +5
Skills: Hide 5 ranks, Move Silently 5 ranks, and Survival 3 ranks.
Feats: Lightning reflexes, Track, Weapon Focus (greatsword).
Spells: Ability to cast divine spells. Clerics who wish to become windwalkers must have access to Air or Travel domain.
Patron: Shaundakul.
Special: The character must have visited at least three different regions in her lifetime. The characters must have flown at least once for an hour or more, whether by means of magic or an aerial mount.

Take a few Ranger and cleric levels and take it to 10 for 100ft (good) flyspeed. A lot of fluff to go along with everything as well.

[ArcturusV]

Is it wrong that I picture a ranger trying to get that PrC, but lacks a friendly caster to Fly him, and there's no giant eagles, etc, around just throwing himself off a cliff over and over. "One hour of flight... six terrifying, painful seconds at a time".

[Arc_knight25]

I never really thought about that, but that is hilarious. I would recommend he get a ring of Feather Fall at least. I feel like making an NPC now that just keeps jumping off a cliff praying to his God to teach him the ways.

Also do you think Levitate would count as flight time?

[Deox]

Weapon master got updated to kensai in complete warrior and the original is in sword and fist.

Weapon Master was never updated to 3.5. It's 3.0. There's Kensai (completely different PrC) and Exotic Weapon Master in the Complete Warrior.

@OP: Grease and good old fashioned (non magical) marbles are great defenses against the FB.

[Eldaran]

Still I don't understand the conclusion of almost automatic save successes. Her AC is low, so she would get hit rather often. Let's say she gets hit with 15 points of damage before she kills the opponent (which on level 7 upwards should be a realistic number, right?), to my understanding she needs to make a Will save of 25. Let's say she took 6 Levels of Fighter first, she has a basic Will +2. Adding Steadfast Determination raises it to +5. So she would need a 20 to succeed, or there is one round of attack against the party members. (On the other hand, an archer and a wizard might be able to just stay away far enough from her in most outdoor scenarios.)

You're confusing the save to avoid entering a frenzy with the save to end a frenzy. To end a frenzy is always just DC 20 will save. Also, you can easily get a Cloak of Resistance to boost saves. And yes, grease shuts down Frenzied Berserker quite handily.

Another good prestige class for an evil greatsword fighter is the Disciple of Dispater (http://dndtools.eu/classes/disciple-of-dispater/).

[Segev]

War Hulk, if she can manage the Large size, and (eventually) a Skilled weapon (or whatever the name of the bonus weapon feature is that makes any wielder proficient and have at least 3/4 BAB for their HD) could be devastating on a greatsword-wielder. The eventual greater sweeping attack will let her attack everything in reach for full iteratives.

[Eldariel]

Weapon Master was never updated to 3.5. It's 3.0. There's Kensai (completely different PrC) and Exotic Weapon Master in the Complete Warrior.

"Officially" (that is, according to the update list, which I can't find right now; anyone got it handy?), Exotic Weapon Master is the updated Weapon Master. Of course, given they share almost nothing, it's not hard to call that bull****. Weapon Master is kind of a cool class (though obviously has a tad stringent entry requirements), so I'd recommend DMs allow it as it were.

Also, I think for Greatword Fighter, Zhentarim Fighter Sub Levels (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060327a) are the best option :smalltongue:

[ArqArturo]

I do remember the Shadow Sentinel from Races of Destiny being somewhat cool, but, the class requires you to be an illumian, though.

[Kuulvheysoon]

If there's an Intimidate portion, maybe talk to your DM about a modified Thayan Knight (CW), link the FB to a spellcasting member of your party and memorize calm emotions (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/calmEmotions.htm)?

[Karnith]

(that is, according to the update list, which I can't find right now; anyone got it handy?)
Here you go. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/20050110x) The Master of Chains PrC was also folded into Exotic Weapon Master for 3.5.

[Averis Vol]

That feat is interesting. Her Wis is +1 and her Con +3, so the gap isn't huge, but it's still better than Iron Will. I might also consider buffing her with Bear's Endurance then.

Still I don't understand the conclusion of almost automatic save successes. Her AC is low, so she would get hit rather often. Let's say she gets hit with 15 points of damage before she kills the opponent (which on level 7 upwards should be a realistic number, right?), to my understanding she needs to make a Will save of 25. Let's say she took 6 Levels of Fighter first, she has a basic Will +2. Adding Steadfast Determination raises it to +5. So she would need a 20 to succeed, or there is one round of attack against the party members. (On the other hand, an archer and a wizard might be able to just stay away far enough from her in most outdoor scenarios.)

Well it takes a little bit of save optimisation, but it isn't really that hard to get a good will save. one level in barbarian gets you rage, which also gets you a +2 morale bonus on will saves while raging (take extra rage). She has +1 from from fighter 3 from con which increases to +5 when raging, plus a +2 from cloak of resistance (being safe, by level 7 you could easily afford a +3)

so in all she has a base +10. if you hit her with bears endurance, that becomes +12. so before really even optimising, we bring it to only a 40% chance that she fails.

[Rumo]

War Hulk looks rather cool, but how would she gain large size as a human? Enlarge Person + Permanency?

Is my understanding correct that with a level of Barbarian dipped into the Fighter career, she gains her second attack at a later time than otherwise (Level 7 instead of 6)? I suppose it's still worth it, but it would be good to know the disadvantages as well.

@Averis Vol: Your explanation makes sense to me. But I think if Grease is a 100% Frenzy stopper, then we won't have anything to fear from her anyway.

[ArcturusV]

Not at all. As long as they stick to Full BaB classes (Barbarian, Ranger, Paladin, etc) they will still get their extra attacks right on schedule. No delay as the check for "Extra attack on a full attack action" is merely if you have +6 BaB. Well excepting a few weird cases like the Maho-Bujin who gets them on +3 BaB, Flurry of Misses, Ki Frenzy, etc. The delay would only come in if your character was something like Rogue 1/Fighter 4/Barbarian 2, due to the Rogue having +0 BaB at level 1.

[Rumo]

[...] Full BaB classes [...]

Thank you, this makes sense and everything much clearer to me!

[Averis Vol]

War Hulk looks rather cool, but how would she gain large size as a human? Enlarge Person + Permanency?

Is my understanding correct that with a level of Barbarian dipped into the Fighter career, she gains her second attack at a later time than otherwise (Level 7 instead of 6)? I suppose it's still worth it, but it would be good to know the disadvantages as well.

@Averis Vol: Your explanation makes sense to me. But I think if Grease is a 100% Frenzy stopper, then we won't have anything to fear from her anyway.

Oh yea, definately. This is just a secondary deterrent seeing as you may not be around at all times.

[Rumo]

Thinking about our future Miss Berserker again, I'm wondering how safe relying on Grease really is. I imagine the following situation:
1) A trap goes off, dealing 5 damage to the Frenzied Berserker.
2) She fails her Will Save of 15.
3) She succeeds in rolling a higher initiative than both the Wizard and the Ranger who carries a Tanglefoot Bag.
4) She makes one step towards the flat-footed and possibly wounded (trap!) Wizard and chops him twice.

Am I missing anything?

[Nihilarian]

Do not use Frenzied Berserker. Never use Frenzied Berserker.

[Urpriest]

What feat was she aiming for at Fighter 4? Generally if a player is taking levels of Fighter, it's because they want a specific feat chain for some combat trick. We could give you PrCs that help synergize with that trick.

[Talya]

If she's already got Fighter 3, she probably may as well go ahead and pick up Fighter 4.


Fighter 3 dumb level, Thog not take.

[Telonius]

Thinking about our future Miss Berserker again, I'm wondering how safe relying on Grease really is. I imagine the following situation:
1) A trap goes off, dealing 5 damage to the Frenzied Berserker.
2) She fails her Will Save of 15.
3) She succeeds in rolling a higher initiative than both the Wizard and the Ranger who carries a Tanglefoot Bag.
4) She makes one step towards the flat-footed and possibly wounded (trap!) Wizard and chops him twice.

Am I missing anything?

Marching order. Everyone is at least 10 feet away from the Berserker at all times, and the Wizard always has at least one person between the two of them.

[Rumo]

What feat was she aiming for at Fighter 4? Generally if a player is taking levels of Fighter, it's because they want a specific feat chain for some combat trick. We could give you PrCs that help synergize with that trick.

I'm aware of that now. We're a group of D&D noobs (well, I'm very slowly but surely learning the basics). If she had been following the DM's advice, she would have been steering for Fighter 20.

[Keld Denar]

I like Pious Templar and Occult Slayer for melee prcs. Both are fairly simple to enter, requiring Weapon Focus (which she probably had). Occult Slayer is a bit goofy, given that it was written before Immediate Actions were published, but its not hard to fix. +1d6 damage vs spellcasters, or better, against anything with SLAs, is nice, but the real noon is the permanent Mind Blank at level 5. That is a class ability that is worth over 100,000 g as a magic item. Totally worth 5 full BAB levels with decent skills. Pious Templar gives bonus feats, Mettle!, minor DR, and paladin spells. Normal paladin spells suck, but a quick dive through the SpC, PHBII, and Complete Champion reveal some gems. Even Races of Stone has a couple of nice ones. Righteous Fury alone gives a moral bonus to Str, something that doesn't exist very many places. Low level Pearls of Power are cheap, especially if they are crafted, and really flesh out your encounters per day capacity.

[Eldariel]

I dunno, I really don't like investing 5 levels into Occult Slayer. If ToB didn't exist, maybe, but with maneuvers (and on the flipside, stuff like Zhentarim Fighter, various Barb subclasses, Ranger dips & associated PRCs) I find it just becomes quite hard to vindicate. The ability is nice but you're paying quarter of your build for that, and it's still purely defensive. It's also not a blanket immunity to Will-saves so you still can't afford to dump that.

Make no mistake, I agree that Mind Blank is a really, really important thing to have higher up (have fun dancing to Irresistible Dance otherwise; and no, you don't get a save there, and that's just one of the dozen problems with not having 24 hour Mind Blank coverage), but if I'm playing a martial who's not adventuring with a spellcaster, well, my first recourse would be to be the spellcaster myself instead (doesn't preclude me from being martial) and the second would be a Legacy Weapon with the Personal Mind Blank ability. It comes a bit late (17) but it's economical and comes with a lot of other goodies too. The final option is of course one of the superbig items that gives it...which is why I really just prefer having a spellcaster around.

[Nihilarian]

I dunno, I really don't like investing 5 levels into Occult Slayer. If ToB didn't exist, maybe, but with maneuvers (and on the flipside, stuff like Zhentarim Fighter, various Barb subclasses, Ranger dips & associated PRCs) I find it just becomes quite hard to vindicate. The ability is nice but you're paying quarter of your build for that, and it's still purely defensive. It's also not a blanket immunity to Will-saves so you still can't afford to dump that.

Make no mistake, I agree that Mind Blank is a really, really important thing to have higher up (have fun dancing to Irresistible Dance otherwise; and no, you don't get a save there, and that's just one of the dozen problems with not having 24 hour Mind Blank coverage), but if I'm playing a martial who's not adventuring with a spellcaster, well, my first recourse would be to be the spellcaster myself instead (doesn't preclude me from being martial) and the second would be a Legacy Weapon with the Personal Mind Blank ability. It comes a bit late (17) but it's economical and comes with a lot of other goodies too. The final option is of course one of the superbig items that gives it...which is why I really just prefer having a spellcaster around.The benefits of Occult Slayer are decent and as it happens, Tome of Battle is very forgiving of multiclassed characters.

Interestingly, Blank Thoughts is an extraordinary ability.

[ShurikVch]

Hi,

after having received so much valuable advice on other characters in my party, I could also use some input on a friend's character, a level 3 Fighter who wields a greatword. What prestige classes could she aim for?
Armed with a greatword? :smallconfused:
Hmmm...
Acolyte of the Ego (http://dndtools.eu/classes/acolyte-of-the-ego/) ? :smallwink:

[Rumo]

Marching order. Everyone is at least 10 feet away from the Berserker at all times, and the Wizard always has at least one person between the two of them.

Generally a good idea, but in roleplaying sense it might feel silly if all the time everyone would treat her like she had the plague. Yet on the other hand, if I have to choose between occasional bad roleplaying and head chopped off ...

I looked at the Magic Item Compendium, and, starting at A, very quickly ran into the Anklet of Translocation, which as far as I understand it gives the wearer the Abrupt Jaunt feat (INT 14) two times per day for rather ridiculous 1400 gold. Or am I missing anything? Apart from the fact that it blocks the foot slot, this seems to be the Healing Belt of short range teleport.

Is it correct that this item enables its wearer to evade any attacks unless flat-footet, including the berserk in the abovementioned worst case scenario?

[HammeredWharf]

I looked at the Magic Item Compendium, and, starting at A, very quickly ran into the Anklet of Translocation, which as far as I understand it gives the wearer the Abrupt Jaunt feat (INT 14) two times per day for rather ridiculous 1400 gold. Or am I missing anything?

It's not like Abrupt Jaunt. AJ is an immediate action, while the anklet is a swift action, so you can only use it on your turn. It's still a very good item. Too good for the price IMO.

[Rumo]

It's not like Abrupt Jaunt. AJ is an immediate action, while the anklet is a swift action, so you can only use it on your turn. It's still a very good item. Too good for the price IMO.

Ah, that's too bad. No perfect solution to a berserk then. Still I think I might like to get it. After almost being eaten by a Grick last Friday, I have developed an aversion to grapples.

[HammeredWharf]

Ah, that's too bad. No perfect solution to a berserk then. Still I think I might like to get it. After almost being eaten by a Grick last Friday, I have developed an aversion to grapples.

Yes, that's why it's such a great item. With its help, you can say "no" to grapple, most low-level AoO builds and some other things that may be very dangerous. You can also full attack after moving ten feet.

[Metahuman1]

She want's to go Frenzied Berserker, ok, here's what I'd do to make that hold water.


Talk to the DM about using spellcraft to research a spell that provides a luck based reroll and a competence/insight/luck based bonus on Will Saves for the subject that runs for an hour per level, but only provides it's benefits on a very, very, very specific type of will save. It has to have a very specific thing it's being used too do, so it can't be "avoid falling for hold person." and "Avoid falling for Confusion." and "Avoid falling for charm person."

And tell him the only thing you will use this spell on, is the would be frenzied breserker, with the objective being "End a Frenzy.", and make the bonus high enough that she will always pass her save except on a nat 1, in which case, she get's another roll, and all she has to do is not roll another nat 1 and she's still out of the woods.



Explain to your DM that it's perfectly in character for a good aligned wizard to use magic to solve the problem of making sure his allies don't become a liability if it can be helped. And then tell him that your doing this so that she can play her character the way she wants too with out accidentally killing someone else PC cause she fails a die roll. Thus, she get's to have her fun with out risking the rest of the party's fun.

[Eldariel]

Explain to your DM that it's perfectly in character for a good aligned wizard to use magic to solve the problem of making sure his allies don't become a liability if it can be helped. And then tell him that your doing this so that she can play her character the way she wants too with out accidentally killing someone else PC cause she fails a die roll. Thus, she get's to have her fun with out risking the rest of the party's fun.

I'd just pump Will-save and burn a feat (Catalogues of Enlightenment) or levels on Cleric for Pride-domain myself. Hell, Cleric-levels aren't the worst either even if you never cast spells; domains, heavy armor proficiency, medium BAB, good Will-save, ability to use Cleric wands and scrolls, it's overall a nice pick-up. Not to mention, Pride domain seems to fit incredibly well on how I perceive a prototypical Barbarian.

[Rumo]

She want's to go Frenzied Berserker, ok, here's what I'd do to make that hold water.


Talk to the DM about using spellcraft to research a spell that provides a luck based reroll and a competence/insight/luck based bonus on Will Saves for the subject that runs for an hour per level, but only provides it's benefits on a very, very, very specific type of will save. It has to have a very specific thing it's being used too do, so it can't be "avoid falling for hold person." and "Avoid falling for Confusion." and "Avoid falling for charm person."

And tell him the only thing you will use this spell on, is the would be frenzied breserker, with the objective being "End a Frenzy.", and make the bonus high enough that she will always pass her save except on a nat 1, in which case, she get's another roll, and all she has to do is not roll another nat 1 and she's still out of the woods.



Explain to your DM that it's perfectly in character for a good aligned wizard to use magic to solve the problem of making sure his allies don't become a liability if it can be helped. And then tell him that your doing this so that she can play her character the way she wants too with out accidentally killing someone else PC cause she fails a die roll. Thus, she get's to have her fun with out risking the rest of the party's fun.

That's an interesting idea. Our DM might argue that her huge combat bonuses might save our live just as her instability might endanger it. At least that's what I would say in his spot. Still it's worth giving a thought. The whole topic of researching spells is rather new to me.

[Rumo]

I'd just pump Will-save and burn a feat (Catalogues of Enlightenment) or levels on Cleric for Pride-domain myself. Hell, Cleric-levels aren't the worst either even if you never cast spells; domains, heavy armor proficiency, medium BAB, good Will-save, ability to use Cleric wands and scrolls, it's overall a nice pick-up. Not to mention, Pride domain seems to fit incredibly well on how I perceive a prototypical Barbarian.

Sorry about my ignorance, but what is or are Catalogues of Enlightenment? Google doesn't really give me satisfactory answers. And what do you mean by burn a feat? I was thinking of Iron Will at Lvl 9, or this feat that uses KON for Will Saves (I forgot its name - but as far as I remember that has a prerequisite feat and thus cannot be picked before Lvl 12).

The Cleric dip sounds like a good idea in terms of optimization. But I'm sure that this is not an option for her. It's also very much out of character - maybe not for FBs in general but certainly for this one.

[HammeredWharf]

Sorry about my ignorance, but what is or are Catalogues of Enlightenment? Google doesn't really give me satisfactory answers.

They're a planar touchstone. You can find them in the Planar Handbook, page 166. The feat is called Planar Touchstone and gives you the base ability of a planar touchstone. The base ability of the Catalogues is a granted power of a cleric domain.

[Rumo]

They're a planar touchstone. You can find them in the Planar Handbook, page 166. The feat is called Planar Touchstone and gives you the base ability of a planar touchstone. The base ability of the Catalogues is a granted power of a cleric domain.

Oh. Hmm, 8 levels of Planar Knowledge sounds like a problem.

[Eldariel]

Oh. Hmm, 8 levels of Planar Knowledge sounds like a problem.

That requires level 13 and a total of 16 cross-class points, or another feat for acquiring Knowledges as a class skill. Options to that end include Knowledge Devotion [Complete Champion], Education [Various Campaign Settings Books], few Apprentice-feats [DMGII; they come with few other skills too], Keeper of Forbidden Lore [Fiendish Codex I] and various classes.

Barbarian itself has Planar Substitution Levels at 3, 7 and 11, which get Knowledge (Planes) as a class skill. If Trap Sense hasn't been traded away, the level 3 ACF would trade it for Portal Sense (probably better anyways) and in addition, provide the Barbarian with Knowledge (the Planes) in class.

Mind, he could only take 6 of the required 8 ranks and that's provided he has high enough Int to get 6 skill points per level, but that'd just mean two points cross-class and it would lift the cap anyways, making the feat available on level 5 (or 6, more likely, given you don't get a feat on level 5).

[Rumo]

Mind, he could only take 6 of the required 8 ranks and that's provided he has high enough Int to get 6 skill points per level, but that'd just mean two points cross-class and it would lift the cap anyways, making the feat available on level 5 (or 6, more likely, given you don't get a feat on level 5).

I don't quite understand this (she does have INT+2 though). Anyway, I'm afraid that alienating her character so far from this brutish evil Fighter/Barbarian/Berserker girl that she starts pumping Knowledge skills just wouldn't be her kind of thing.

Isn't there any item existing that might help? Maybe something that can be triggered as an immediate action?

[Eldariel]

I don't quite understand this (she does have INT+2 though). Anyway, I'm afraid that alienating her character so far from this brutish evil Fighter/Barbarian/Berserker girl that she starts pumping Knowledge skills just wouldn't be her kind of thing.

Well, knowing what you kill isn't that off the wall, but yeah. Anyways, to break my statement down to components:
- Cap amount of ranks in a class skill is "level + 3", ergo on character level 3 that's 6.
- Cap on any skill you've ever had as a class skill in any class remains at "level + 3" regardless of any future multiclassing.
- Taking ranks in non-class skills costs 2 skill points per rank.

As such, if you take a level in Planar Barbarian on level 3, you can get up to 6 ranks in Knowledge: the Planes by investing 6 skill points in it. The two more ranks required would have to be taken cross-class however.

But yeah, it's possible to fluff the Knowledge however you want (it's used to identify Outsiders; mebbe she just really likes wrecking Outsider face and has started to collect bits, or mebbe stories of her tribe or w/e). That said, it's of course not the only choice. Honestly, levels in Cleric aren't the worst thing ever: you can fluff it pretty much however you want (pick appropriate Domains; Pride is certainly one and there are plenty of others), the class is fairly martial and indeed does pretty much what you want here anyways.


Isn't there any item existing that might help? Maybe something that can be triggered as an immediate action?

The problem is you can't trigger magic items in a Frenzy.

[Metahuman1]

He might, but point out that he can still shut her down when he needs too, but the party? Not so much. And it's not fair to everyone else for her to take it if there's that risk, but it's also not fair for her to not take it if it's what she wants to do just cause everyone else want's her not too.

And he can solve that with letting you have this one spell to drop on her at the start of the day with a lesser rod of extend spells.

[Rumo]

[...]
Thank you for the explanation! Yes, I believe it is possible to fluff, but knowing the person who plays the character, I'm 100% sure that she would never be willing to put points there. (If it were Dungeoneering, it might be negotiable, but not Planar).


The problem is you can't trigger magic items in a Frenzy.
What I mean is: Items for her travel companions. :smallsmile:

[Eldariel]

What I mean is: Items for her travel companions. :smallsmile:

Well, the Nuclear option is a Scroll of Forcecage on a caster. That would keep her there for a day if necessary, and she can't use items to get out or do anything about it as long as the Frenzy persists. As ever, Celerity > use the Scroll solves the problem. Though, of course, that assumes there's a Celerity-carrier abound. You can also e.g. give her a Merciful weapon so she can't actually kill anyone or some such.

[Metahuman1]

I just thought of an alternative option:

Learn the spell Distilled Joy (Book of Exalted Deeds.) and the feats craft wounderous item and craft contingent spell (the latter from complete Arcane.), and get a couple of brothel/bordello owners to let you install traps of it at the entrances to there place of business to effect the staff and customers. Maybe talk the DM into letting you do a side quest and making them a couple of traps of some kind of beneficial magic in exchange for setting up the Distilled Joy Trap. Maybe see if the DM will give just you a bit of side work to pay for the initial XP expenditure.

The Distilled joy Traps will give you a constant supply of ambrosia, which let's you swap one dose for 2xp when crafting, and you can swap in as many doses as you like.

Then, Put a couple of Crafted Contingent spells on her every day, or heck, if you work yourself out a big enough supply of Ambrosia, every Frenzy as needed. Say, Grease and Hold Person, Maybe Solid Fog and/or Black Tenticals If you really want to make sure she can't function when these go off, and have them triggered too "She's attacking/about to attack a party member."



Again, explain this set up to the DM, and ask him to work with you on it to make it happen so that for the cost of spell slots, she can function and still be the breserker she want's to be.

[Rumo]

Well, the Nuclear option is a Scroll of Forcecage on a caster. That would keep her there for a day if necessary, and she can't use items to get out or do anything about it as long as the Frenzy persists. As ever, Celerity > use the Scroll solves the problem. Though, of course, that assumes there's a Celerity-carrier abound. You can also e.g. give her a Merciful weapon so she can't actually kill anyone or some such.

Well, I have Grease and I am 8 points of Initiative ahead of her, so whenever a trap or some other misfortune with no enemy nearby strikes, chances are good that I can make her fall on her butt. Problem is the unlikely case that she beats those 8 points. And in this case I'm afraid no scroll would be sufficiently fast.

Merciful weapon - I'm afraid she'd rather take levels in Paladin or start playing with Barbie dolls. :smallwink:

[enderlord99]

I'm pretty sure there's no such thing as a greatword, and to use a mediocreword, you need to be a truenamer.:smallyuk:

[Eldariel]

Well, I have Grease and I am 8 points of Initiative ahead of her, so whenever a trap or some other misfortune with no enemy nearby strikes, chances are good that I can make her fall on her butt. Problem is the unlikely case that she beats those 8 points. And in this case I'm afraid no scroll would be sufficiently fast.

Well, Celerity would if you're able to act while flat-footed but I don't suppose you have the option; eventually once you see Foresight or a Cunning Legacy Weapon but I suppose that's quite the ways away.

If not, that option is out and a Crafted Contingent Spell would be needed, I suppose. Admittedly I can only think of Celerity as an option here, and you need to find a high level caster with the feat to get one. You could have it crafted to trigger on "when she goes crazy and acts too fast for me to react, pop this". That would be a relatively fair use of Crafted Contingency all things considered, and enable you to leave your party mostly in one piece.

EDIT: Celerity is in Player's Handbook II, Craft Contingent Spells-feat is in Complete Arcane.