Shadow Illusion (Special) Effects saves

[TeH3qualiz0r]

Hoping for some interpretations of the rules regarding shadow magic.

Would creatures subject to a Shadow Illusion (Silent Image) casting of Evard's Black Tentacles be allowed a will save to not be grappled?

The PHB (276) states "Shadow objects or substances, such as obscuring mist, have normal effects except against those who disbelieve them. Against disbelievers, they are 20% likely to work."

I'm not sure because if a quasi-real substance is disbelieved it would be seen through (thus obscuring mist would not have it's effect), but would it be moved through (avoiding a grapple)?

Thanks!

[Psyren]

Shadow Illusions are partially real. So merely realizing it's an illusion will help you, but isn't necessarily enough to avoid all the effects on its own; that's where the percentage comes into play.

So Shadow Black Tentacles has a chance to grapple you, even if you realize it's not wholly real, because part of it is there whether you believe it or not.

[prufock]

I'm not sure because if a quasi-real substance is disbelieved it would be seen through (thus obscuring mist would not have it's effect), but would it be moved through (avoiding a grapple)?
Yes. Shadow Illusion explains that it works just like Shadow Conjuration/Evocation. So you get a will to disbelieve (to make it X% real) and then whatever other saves are allowed by the spell you're mimicking.

[nedz]

Shadow Conjuration of Spell X which doesn't do damage.


Make Will save against Shadow Conjuration
If save made, then 20% chance of being effected by X anyway
If save failed effected by X


Shadow Evocation is slightly different

[TeH3qualiz0r]

Thanks for the replies!

On the topic of shadows; would it be possible to create something (not just mimic a spell) out of a shadow Silent Image that could have an effect? For example, could you make an image of a blinding light (roll for % chance if disbelieved) similar to Shadow Radiance or even just Pyrotechnics? This is being done with ScM Shadow Illusions (Su) btw.

[Psyren]

Shadow Illusion requires you to mimic a specific spell, so it will do whatever that spell does. But you can only mimic a spell lower than the illusion you're using, so Silent Image could only mimic cantrips. A Shadow Silent Image of a blinding light would probably act like Flare.

[TeH3qualiz0r]

Shadow Illusion requires you to mimic a specific spell, so it will do whatever that spell does. But you can only mimic a spell lower than the illusion you're using, so Silent Image could only mimic cantrips. A Shadow Silent Image of a blinding light would probably act like Flare.

Thanks for the reply.

According to the description of Shadow Illusions in Races of Stone, Silent Image (as well as some other images) actually changes from figment to shadow. It says that you can use them to mimic Summoning/Creation Conjuration and Evocation. Even if you don't mimic one of these schools, Silent Image should still be a shadow. I was just comparing what I wanted to create to existing spells, mainly Shadow Radiance as it shows shadows are capable of blinding, but the level would only matter for the save DC. Also, I'm using Heighten Spell/Earth spell to pump up the Silent Image level.

[Psyren]

Thing is, if you're not using it to mimic an existing spell, what are you trying to do with it?

Shadow Illusion says:


A shadowcraft mage can use the altered spell to mimic any sorcerer or wizard conjuration (summoning), conjuration (creation), or evocatlon spell at least one level lower than the illusion spell. The altered spell functions identically to the shadow conjuration or shadow evocation spell, except that the spell's strength equals 10% per level of the figment spell used.

Silent Image is a 1st-level spell (unHeightened, anyway) so one level lower would be cantrips.

[TeH3qualiz0r]

Thing is, if you're not using it to mimic an existing spell, what are you trying to do with it?

I'm making an image of a blinding light. No where does it state you must mimic another spell.

I suppose it comes down to interpretation, which is why I'm asking on a forum. It doesn't explicitly say whether you can or can not use the altered spells for non-mimicking purposes.

[Psyren]

I'm making an image of a blinding light. No where does it state you must mimic another spell.

The rules don't say that you can't fly to the moon and get a free wish after every casting of an illusion either. Rules are exclusive, not inclusive. If it doesn't mention X, you can't do X.

[TeH3qualiz0r]

The rules don't say that you can't fly to the moon and get a free wish after every casting of an illusion either. Rules are exclusive, not inclusive. If it doesn't mention X, you can't do X.

Thanks for taking your time to respond, but you're really not addressing the things I'm saying.

[Aracor]

Thanks for taking your time to respond, but you're really not addressing the things I'm saying.

He actually is. He quoted the effect of Shadow Illusion, which says you can mimic a spell at least one level lower than the spell illusion spell.

Now, the thing to keep in mind is that this is simply an additional option compared to the normal use of the spell (that's what the CAN means). You can still use the spell as per the description of the regular spell as well. But there is no use of the spell that allows you to simply create "blinding light" without mimicking some other spell effect. There are no rules to adjudicate it. So at BEST this would be an "ask your DM" option. But without a very permissive DM, the answer is simply "Nope".

In the case of blinding light, the standard use of a silent image spell doesn't allow the use of blinding light. It simply won't be bright enough. So that leaves us with Shadow Illusion, which requires you to mimic another spell. So you need to find another spell that Shadow Illusion can mimic that causes blinding light, and then you use the standard Shadow Illusion rules for it.

~Aracor

[nedz]

You can make a Silent Image of whatever you want, Shadow Illusion is more restrictive though.



A shadowcraft mage can use the altered spell to mimic any sorcerer or wizard conjuration (summoning), conjuration (creation), or evocation spell at least one level lower than the illusion spell.

[TeH3qualiz0r]

Beginning at 3rd level, a shadowcraft mage is able to infuse some of her figments (see the list below) with material from the Plane of Shadow, making them partially real. The subschool of these spells changes from figment to shadow. A shadowcraft mage can use the altered spell to mimic any sorcerer or wizard conjuration (summoning), conjuration (creation), or evocation spell at least one level lower than the illusion spell. The altered spell functions identically to the shadow conjuration or shadow evocation spell, except that the spell's strength equals 10% per level of the figment spell.

My issue here is that first it says that Silent Image can be infused with Shadow material and that it can be used to mimic spells just like shadow conjuration or shadow evocation. If a ScM can first turn Silent Image into shadow why--or where is it written that it--must be restricted to mimicking other spells.

Infuse spell with shadow->mimic other spell

or

Infuse spell with shadow->don't mimic other spell.

I don't understand why, if one had the ability to infuse shadow into illusions, he would restrict its use.

The information regarding conj. and evoc. seems to be a guideline so you know how to quantify certain effects.
Also, thanks for the reply, nedz.

[nedz]

I think it's because they are modelling this class feature on the Shadow spells — almost exactly in fact.

[Psyren]

Infuse spell with shadow->mimic other spell

or

Infuse spell with shadow->don't mimic other spell.

Option A is what I spelled out for you - mimic shadow evocation/conjuration.

The only effect of option B is to use the spell normally - i.e. the shadow aspect of it does nothing, save for how it interacts with other abilities that behave specially with shadow effects.

[Particle_Man]

Thanks for the replies!

On the topic of shadows; would it be possible to create something (not just mimic a spell) out of a shadow Silent Image that could have an effect? For example, could you make an image of a blinding light (roll for % chance if disbelieved) similar to Shadow Radiance or even just Pyrotechnics? This is being done with ScM Shadow Illusions (Su) btw.

If you want to blind someone you could create Silent Image of fog (or heck, a wall), but they get a chance to disbelieve if they interact with it.

[nedz]

If you want to blind someone you could create Silent Image of fog (or heck, a wall), but they get a chance to disbelieve if they interact with it.

Or an Illusion that they've got their helmet on backwards can work too. The saves the same; it depends whether you want to block LoS for everyone else really.

[TeH3qualiz0r]

Or an Illusion that they've got their helmet on backwards can work too. The saves the same; it depends whether you want to block LoS for everyone else really.

I've just been using solid black cubes. I thought of something like the helmet trick but figured it would be too difficult to concentrate on keeping it in place on
multiple targets in real time.

The reason I wanted a blinding light would be to blind monsters outside of the area of the spell, maybe with a duration longer than the spell. The blinding was also just an example. I wanted to now if other things were possible such as making shadow arrows, or semi-solid objects etc.

[TeH3qualiz0r]

Option A is what I spelled out for you - mimic shadow evocation/conjuration.

The only effect of option B is to use the spell normally - i.e. the shadow aspect of it does nothing, save for how it interacts with other abilities that behave specially with shadow effects.

Why would the shadow aspect of it do nothing when shadows are different from figments? We're kind of walking around in circles here lol.

From All About Illusions:

"Figment: A figment spell creates a false sensation. Those who perceive the figment perceive the same thing, not their own slightly different versions of the figment. (It is not a personalized mental impression.) Figments cannot make something seem to be something else. A figment that includes audible effects cannot duplicate intelligible speech unless the spell description specifically says it can. If intelligible speech is possible, it must be in a language you can speak. If you try to duplicate a language you cannot speak, the image produces gibberish. Likewise, you cannot make a visual copy of something unless you know what it looks like.

Because figments and glamers (see below) are unreal, they cannot produce real effects the way that other types of illusions can. They cannot cause damage to objects or creatures, support weight, provide nutrition, or provide protection from the elements. Consequently, these spells are useful for confounding or delaying foes, but useless for attacking them directly. For example, it is possible to use a silent image spell to create an illusory cottage, but the cottage offers no protection from rain.

Shadow: A shadow spell creates something that is partially real from extradimensional energy. Such illusions can have real effects. Damage dealt by a shadow illusion is real."

tl;dr Silent Image could have real effects if infused with shadow.

[Psyren]

Why would the shadow aspect of it do nothing when shadows are different from figments?

Because you're choosing to do nothing with it. Either you use it the way the ability describes (mimicking shadow evocation/shadow conjuration) or you use it normally (as a regular Silent Image etc.) There is no third option.



tl;dr Silent Image could have real effects if infused with shadow.

Exactly, it could - just as the ability describes. It's up to you whether to use it that way or not.

[TeH3qualiz0r]

Because you're choosing to do nothing with it. Either you use it the way the ability describes (mimicking shadow evocation/shadow conjuration) or you use it normally (as a regular Silent Image etc.) There is no third option.


The way I'm reading it there is a third option. Because "[t]he subschool of these spells changes from figment to shadow," I would be choosing to use an infused Silent Image to make an image of a blinding light (or something else).

[Psyren]

The way I'm reading it there is a third option. Because "[t]he subschool of these spells changes from figment to shadow," I would be choosing to use an infused Silent Image to make an image of a blinding light (or something else).

That would fall under the first option - it would act like a legal spell that can come closest to what you want to do (like Flare.) Heightening the Image or using a more powerful one would increase what you could duplicate.

If you could simply make whatever you wanted without limits then where would it end? Could you make a Silent Image of an Efreet that can grant you wishes? A Silent Image of a Gate to Celestia for a quick escape? A Silent Image of a Water Breathing potion you can drink before an undersea trek?

[TeH3qualiz0r]

That would fall under the first option - it would act like a legal spell that can come closest to what you want to do (like Flare.) Heightening the Image or using a more powerful one would increase what you could duplicate.

If you could simply make whatever you wanted without limits then where would it end? Could you make a Silent Image of an Efreet that can grant you wishes? A Silent Image of a Gate to Celestia for a quick escape? A Silent Image of a Water Breathing potion you can drink before an undersea trek?

This is where interpretation comes in. I think those would be unfair and rule it that things like these could not be done with shadow magic.


You could also impose limitations such as a potion having a % to work, or to work in a limited capacity. You can do things like summon a Lantern Archon which will teleport according to RAW. We are talking about magic here. A lot of limitations fly out the window.

[Psyren]

This is where interpretation comes in. I think those would be unfair and rule it that things like these could not be done with shadow magic.

I guess that's what's off-putting to me - rather than weigh each individual idea the player can imagine and houserule this and that one over here to work and those ones over there to fail, I would just stick with what the ability as written says you can do, i.e. mimic shadow evocation and shadow conjuration. "It's magic" is not enough of a reason for me to say anything goes, because even magic has rules and limits.

Shadow Illusions can indeed have real effects but you are reading that as a blank check for any illusion you can devise to do anything you want, simply because there is a bit of shadow in it. The ability itself however very clearly tells you what you are allowed to do.

If that doesn't change your mind then we can agree to disagree and you run it however you like at your table.

[TeH3qualiz0r]

I guess that's what's off-putting to me - rather than weigh each individual idea the player can imagine and houserule this and that one over here to work and those ones over there to fail, I would just stick with what the ability as written says you can do, i.e. mimic shadow evocation and shadow conjuration. "It's magic" is not enough of a reason for me to say anything goes, because even magic has rules and limits.

Shadow Illusions can indeed have real effects but you are reading that as a blank check for any illusion you can devise to do anything you want, simply because there is a bit of shadow in it. The ability itself however very clearly tells you what you are allowed to do.

If that doesn't change your mind then we can agree to disagree and you run it however you like at your table.

That was a well-thought, good answer. Thank you.