Legend of the Five Rings 4e: Clan/Family guide?

[theonesin]

We have a group about to start a new campaign in a new system, Legend of the Five Rings 4th Edition. I'm seeing that there are a lot of clans and a lot of families to go with them, so it's hard to keep track of what does what when I'm trying to figure out what kind of character I want to build.

Are there any general summaries on what each clan/family does? Or any other general advice on picking them?

Thanks.

[BWR]

This (http://www.l5r.com/the-clans/)should help.

[Terraoblivion]

The quick summaries in the corebook really covers things quite well. There are, of course, a lot more details, but if you go with that you'll get most of the big picture. Honestly, the only two truly major things that are also publicly known that I think they miss are just how much the Agasha, and later the Tamori, are mad scientists and the fact that the Daidoji are the most important economic force in the empire. The latter is especially big.

[Kaun]

how about you give us a concept on what you want to build and we give you suggestions?

[Terraoblivion]

Yeah, if the basic description in the corebook isn't enough, it'd probably be better to ask us for advice, including any special considerations that go beyond the basic theme of the clans. Certainly seems easier than for us to write full descriptions of every single clan and family that goes beyond what the book has to say.

Also, when is the game you're playing in set? It does change some clans and families, most notably the Unicorn, and a lot of L5R GMs like to set their games way in the past of the setting. And even when not, it's still common to set it at the point where the game started, just before the Scorpion Clan coup, than at later points and there are frankly an insane amount of stuff changing after that.

[TheOOB]

First come up with a basic concept. Then figure out if you want to be a bushi, a shugenja, or a coutier(when in doubt be a bushi, bushi make better diplomats than courtiers make warriors). Than see what everyone is playing and what kind of campaign you are picking.

Your clan is kind of a rough guideline of how your character was raised, and what their world views and loyalties are. As for families, for early on you can't go wrong playing the family of your school, and your school is, arguably, the most important choice you'll make.

[TimeWizard]

Just roll Crab, the best of all clans. If anyone insults your manners tell them you'll go to etiquette school if they watch the Wall for you when your gone.

[TheOOB]

Just roll Crab, the best of all clans. If anyone insults your manners tell them you'll go to etiquette school if they watch the Wall for you when your gone.

The Crab are noble in their own way, but a life of only warfare erodes the soul. Try Dragon, the most anachronistic of all clans.

[Terraoblivion]

The Crab are noble in their own way, but a life of only warfare erodes the soul. Try Dragon, the most anachronistic of all clans.

On the other hand, the Dragon come in three flavors: Weirdo outsider, obnoxious wise old man on the mountain and Blandy McBlanderson who uses two swords instead of one. They're also tied to the biggest, most obnoxious villain sue of the setting and to Togashi who isn't much better. Also, quite frankly, playing Dragon is probably even harder unless you're a Mirumoto, rather than just not acting like a samurai, you need to internalize how to be a proper samurai and how to deviate from it without either breaking the setting horribly. And probably the hardest part, the subservience, is something they have as much as anybody else, especially before the Clan War where you had to be willing to immediately obey any order, no matter how insane, blasphemous, suicidal or nonsensical it is if it came from the clan champion.

All clans are tricky in their own way, really, but I honestly think the more proper, traditional clans are the easiest as you only need to understand the default for society, rather than both the default and how to deviate greatly from it. A Crane or Phoenix would probably be the easiest, maybe a Lion if you know how to deal with extreme orthodoxy and a lack of permission to show much individuality.

[Kaun]

On the other hand, the Dragon come in three flavors: Weirdo outsider, obnoxious wise old man on the mountain and Blandy McBlanderson who uses two swords instead of one.

You forgot Kitsuki Horatio Caine.

Then there are the scorpion whos options are;

A) Manipulative evil a**hole. (this includes the two sub groups: Sarcastic wise-a** and Ninja).
B) The only honest scorpion.

I find interesting character concepts in all the Clans i must admit. I do love playing Crab who studied outside their clan. Because everybody expects the poorly mannered brute, so throwing the curve ball is always interesting.

[TimeWizard]

I've only read the novels, so forgive me if this an obvious question:

What's the purpose of having Dragon anyway? It seems redundant to have 'mystics' and 'actual spellcasters' as two separate houses. For example, the other houses are 'ninja jerks', 'wall defenders', 'professional military for some reason we totally need', 'horse breeders', 'pirates', 'elegant pretty boys', and 'reformed jerks' (but no 'sword smith and architects' missed opportunity). The Phoenix have magic (and one Dragon lesser clan too, I think), the Crane have katana duelist. The Scorpion does spying things/court business.

[Kaun]

I've only read the novels, so forgive me if this an obvious question:

What's the purpose of having Dragon anyway? It seems redundant to have 'mystics' and 'actual spellcasters' as two separate houses. For example, the other houses are 'ninja jerks', 'wall defenders', 'professional military for some reason we totally need', 'horse breeders', 'pirates', 'elegant pretty boys', and 'reformed jerks' (but no 'sword smith and architects' missed opportunity). The Phoenix have magic (and one Dragon lesser clan too, I think), the Crane have katana duelist. The Scorpion does spying things/court business.

Ok that's really simplified but i will have a crack at it.

I would class Dragon as "Enigmatic outsider" rather then "mystic". Their founder, Togashi, had a knack for seeing the future and every time he shows up in the story line it heralds a major change in Rokugan.

For players and GM's the dragon are there for when you want a mysterious .... something. They have a tendency to have unclear goals and purpose in everything they do.

As for sword smiths every clan boasts some really good ones. And the crab family Kaiu are the architects/engineers.

[Terraoblivion]

You forgot Kitsuki Horatio Caine.

I included the Kitsuki in weirdo outsider. Otherwise I would have said mad scientist instead, because both the Agasha and their Tamori successors are certainly that. In any case, I like both the Agasha, I'm less sold on the Tamori given how they seem to be more defined by anger than anything else, and the Kitsuki, but their idiosyncrasies make them harder to play than somebody from a more traditional clan, not less. I don't like the archetype the Togashi are based on and the Mirumoto are just plain dull. Unless it's an all Dragon game I can't think of any reason why you would play a Mirumoto over anybody else. They're the most generic bushi family ever with the only bits of identity they have being the number of swords they used and their founder possibly being even more of a **** than Kakita and Matsu, neither of which really seem like fertile ground for inspiration or interesting contrasts.

I can come up with concepts for all clans, and have in fact already played Phoenixes, Crabs, Lions and Scorpions, but Dragons are the slimmest pickings and it's only the two smallest, least important families of them I can think of ideas for.

[gman391]

Honestly I think of Daigotsu as a bigger villain sue than Hitomi. That said I like Dragon and have played around with both a Mirumoto and Kitsuki. If I ever get involved in a game where I'm allowed to run a monk then I'll come up with a tattoed monk too.

The Dragon are an odd clan out, but their job really isn't to be the mystics but outsiders, to watch the Empire as a whole, and guide it on the path that Togashi wanted. At least for much of it's history with Togashii gone things are well different. (Honestly I don't want Iweko as the Emperess) but that doesn't make them boring.

Mirumoto are basically the clan diplomats, fighters and when needed intriguers, yes they are the most 'normal' family but they also have to do the work between keeping the Clan sufficiently orthodox without losing the core of what makes them the Dragon.

That's just my view.

[TheOOB]

If you go Dragon you gotta go Tamori, and be super pissy at any Phoenix you see.

My favorite character concept was always a Doji family member of the Kakita Bushi school who has the Can't Lie, Black Sheep, and Idealistic disadvantages. Far far to honest and honorable to be a courtier was send to be the Yojimbo of a courtier of another clan. It's not sabotage, a Kakita Yojimbo is a gift.

((For those who don't know, Can't Lie means not only can you NEVER lie, you have to roll to not correct someone when they lie.))

[BWR]

Since we've derailed the thread, I'll pitch in again.
Of all the clans the one that comes off as most bland and annoying to me is the Lion. You have Angry Honor, Tactical Honor, Dickish Crying "Honor" and Bland Ancestor Honor.

The Dragon are my second favorite clan. The Kitsuki aren't really that weird. They are very traditional apart from their novel ideas on investigations. Yes, you have the archetype that they are the Sherlock Holmes of the setting, but think a bit beyond that. They can easily be the Spider Jerusalem if they wanted to (and wanted to get into duels all over the place). They can be the Sam Vimes. They can be the Sano Ichiro. The Kitsuki

The Mirumoto are the rock of tradition. Trying to be traditional yet going against many central warrior traditions in the empire. Serving the weird clan whose inscrutable leader for the most of the time gives no direction, then gets you killed involved in some skirmish your clan had no business being in in the first place. Balancing individuality and loyalty, the incomprehension of outsiders, the somewhat impractical and ethereal nature of their fellow families.

The Togashi. Some people I've heard dislike the whole mystic riddle spewing thing. While there are undoubtedly ise zumi who put on airs and talk in Tao quotes and never give a straight answer just because they feel they are expected to or just want to mess with people, think about where the Togashi come from.
First of all, you have the blood of a god in your veins. It does something to you, to the way you perceive the world. Sometimes good, sometimes bad. But it's like getting a hint of the true nature of the world, tantalizing glimpses, feelings you can't quite put into words. Connections you see are not always obvious to other people but you tend to forget that.
Also, look at Togashi and Shinsei: the questions and goals people had were not necessarily the correct ones and Shinsei pointed that out. Forcing other people to think a bit outside the box, to consider what the real goal is, to see things for what they are rather than what you think them to be. Togashi learned this lesson the hard way and that lesson is in many ways the core of Dragon philosophy.
Also, after a lot of time in a temple, some monks may forget, or maybe never realized, that other people are not necessarily as well-versed in the Tao and other religious/philosohical elements as them. So when a monk quotes an obscure passage he may very well expect the target to stop and think and get the references as well as all the associated discussion and interpretation, but what the receiver actually hears is a brief sentence with no context and no apparant relevance to the situation at hand.

I'll agree that the Agasha are more interesting than the Tamori, though.

[TimeWizard]

Honestly I think of Daigotsu as a bigger villain sue than Hitomi.
TvTropes describes Fu Leng and Daigotsu as 'Satan' and 'Satan II: Satan Harder', respectively :smallsmile:


If I ever get involved in a game where I'm allowed to run a monk then I'll come up with a tattoed monk too.
Ise Zumi are probably my favorite thing in L5R.


The Dragon are an odd clan out, but their job really isn't to be the mystics but outsiders, to watch the Empire as a whole, and guide it on the path that Togashi wanted.

So Dragon clan is Foundation?

[Terraoblivion]

The Togashi. Some people I've heard dislike the whole mystic riddle spewing thing. While there are undoubtedly ise zumi who put on airs and talk in Tao quotes and never give a straight answer just because they feel they are expected to or just want to mess with people, think about where the Togashi come from.

Actually, this would be far more interesting than the place you said Ise Zumi usually come from later. There's character drama in there and you run much less into the borders between your perception, the perception of the GM and the perception of the other players than trying to actually be wise and profound with your quotes. In fact, I don't think that later version is really playable, the gulf of understanding is too big for that to work even if you are that wise and profound and you most likely aren't. Also, honestly, the Togashi are about doing what Togashi tell them, not so much about Shinsei who is tied the most to Shiba and Hantei from among the kami. The ones who are really all about Shinsei and his demand of growth are the henshin and the Asako family in general.

And for the stuff about the Mirumoto...That all seem to only be relevant if there are a lot of other Dragons around and the commands of Dragon superiors is relevant. And even then, it is not the Mirumoto themselves who are interesting but the people around them. I'd also say that both Niten and the other Dragon families are less untraditional than unorthodox, Niten is as old as Kakita's style and the Agasha and the Ise Zumi both predate the First War as well. The Dragon are as traditional as the Phoenix or the Lion, they just have their own traditions rather than sticking to those of the rest of the empire...And so do the Phoenix and the Lion. The only reason the Isawa aren't as much outsiders as the Dragon is that their most visible ways have official sanction and the Asako henshin are probably second only to the Moto in sheer weirdness compared to the empire at large, they're just secret.

Also, being any of those people you mentioned would still make the Kitsuki weird as hell by Rokugani standards. Just using the Kitsuki method even if they're otherwise the most orthodox samurai ever, which is hard since the method brings a lot of unorthodoxy with it, makes you a weirdo in the eyes of Rokugan. All those examples you gave just add further weirdness.

Oh, and about your Lion comments...After the Dragon, they're my least favorite great clan, unless you really want to count the Spider, with the Ikoma holding the distinction of being my least favorite family. Everything about the Ikoma is nasty, manipulative, self-righteous and hypocritical. The Matsu are kinda uninteresting too. I like the Kitsu a lot, though. There is a lot of story potential in how messed-up their internal organizations is and how out of touch they are with the rest of the empire. More than any other clan you do need to play a somewhat weird, atypical member to do a Lion well, though. Because a completely typical Lion would be one of the world's most boring people.

As for Hitomi in contrast to Daigotsu. I don't follow the card game, only the RP and in 4th edition at least, Hitomi gets talked up a lot more than Daigotsu. To the point where the chapter on Hantei Genji in Imperial Histories 2 manages to shoehorn her in. In comparison Daigotsu tends to be brought up as a side thing to the main story whenever he's mentioned in 4e books. Also, unlike Hitomi he actually had to work for his success, whereas she sucked, failed, was an ******* and almost doomed the world before ascending as a god and having books endlessly talk about her as a fallen hero. I'm entirely prepared to believe that it might be different in earlier editions or the card game, though.

[BWR]

The Spider are not a clan and therefore don't count. I could rant for a while on just how horrible Celestial and Emperor Edition were but that would be derailing this thread even more.

About the Dragon, I think we shall have to agree to disagree. We may agree on details but not so much on coolness.

[Terraoblivion]

Oh, I just want to make one thing clear. I like the Kitsuki quite a bit. They're interesting on both a basic level of coolness, a level of filling out a mechanical niche and as people who push the boundaries of the setting, I just don't think they're terribly easy to play for a first character while you're getting to know it. Mostly I just dislike the Dragon due to despising Togashi the Kami as both a character and a plot device, not liking the archetype of the Ise Zumi and finding the Mirumoto devoid of anything interesting, with Hitomi as a side order. I have absolutely nothing against the Kitsuki, Agasha or Tamori.

[BWR]

And I quite liked the Mirumoto and the ise zumi and Togashi-kami. Especially Togashi. Yes, he was a **** but it was very much a case of the ends justify the means and he ended up saving the empire on 2DT. The way the ST treated him sincet then is absolutely unforgiveable. First that tamashii nonsense, then Heaven's Net, then having Satsu become a sock-puppet for the Empress-who-works-in-mysterious-ways-that-totally-are-ok-and-not-bloody-stupid, to throwing the championship to Kei and ignoring his son.

*pantpantpant*

I do not like it.

[Terraoblivion]

I'm pretty sure he was fine early on. It's all the backfilling about what he was doing over the course of the history of the empire that doesn't work. Not only is he a ****, but he's a **** who is always right for weird, handwavy reasons and who acts in strange, inconsistent and often contradictory ways. So he ends up just being a deus ex machina during the period between the death of Hantei Genji and the Second Day of Thunder who forces the empire back on track whenever the writing looked like it would go off the rails towards what was established as being the present.

Really, I'm speaking from the perspective of someone who came in with the fourth edition of the RP, which is great in a lot of ways, but is stuck with a lot of stupid things Story Team did over the years. It's just that rather than remembering him as he was originally conceived is impossible for me as I got to know him with all that derp presented as an intrinsic part of who he is.

[gman391]

Togashii is a bit deus ex machiney but I tend to see him as being like Hari Seldon from Foundation. Complete *******s who play a very long term game that involve them doing things that make no sense because it makes no sense and that will make people react accordingly. That said I understand why you dislike him and Hitomi. Dragon is my favourite clan and even I think Hoshi should have dropped her after the Second Day of Thunder because she is a crazy **** (Although she does give a set up for a Thousand Years of Darkness)

With regards to the Mirumoto being bland. I think they serve the purpose of grounding the Dragon in the here and now. The Togashi are completely happy to work towards Enlightenment and do what they feel they have to on that, the Agasha were essentially mad scientist and focused on that. The Kitsuki are good magistrates but run into the unorthodoxy problem. So the Mirumoto have to pick up all the slack and this creates a diverse family for me. Besides being a little bland makes them good for newbies.

But yeah the Story Team be crazy
*makes Willlpower to not rant about the damned Spider*

[BWR]

But yeah the Story Team be crazy
*makes Willlpower to not rant about the damned Spider*

We should set up a support group for those who are pissed off about the whole Spide debacle.

[Kevka Palazzo]

This is probably indicative of far worse things, but I give the Spider a pass because they look so damned cool.

Also, I like Lions. Granted, I play paladins in D&D, or otherwise Proud Warrior Race Guys. So it's a natural fit, really.

[BWR]

By 'look' do you mean artwork or quick glance in the rulebooks?
I could get into a big long rant about why the Spider suck, but art isn't one of the reasons.

[Bobby Derie]

Spider? Hell, I still have a Hare clan deck.

[Kevka Palazzo]

By 'look' do you mean artwork or quick glance in the rulebooks?
I could get into a big long rant about why the Spider suck, but art isn't one of the reasons.

I mean artwork. I can't remember the name of the traitor monks that they're based on, but I've always thought they looked SUPER badass.

See also: Valenar Elves from the Eberron D&D setting.

[Terraoblivion]

The Spider monks look cool, but most of the other Spiders I've seen look kind of silly in a rather comic book'y way. I haven't seen a lot of Spider pictures, though. They get a lot less space in the RP books than the great clans.

As for being angry about them, I can't really say I can work up a whole lot of emotion about them given how much crazy the official timeline has had ever since the Clan War. I mean, where did Kachiko find all those supremely powerful artifacts she used once and which are never brought up again? The Spider just kinda get lost as another example of Story Team derp. Also, my experience with the RP has mostly been with people playing historical settings rather than in the assumed present day.

And Kevka my thoughts on the Lion mostly come down to hating the Ikoma, not being sure how to actually play the Matsu and the Akodo and liking the conflict in the Kitsu. However, I'm not sure they're really very paladin'ish. They're more like the big, bad bully who can be used to stir everything up and cause added complications.

[BWR]

The Lion are honorable to a fault, but Honor=/=Good.
They are not paladins as traditionally presented in D&D. Some of the variants from The Complete Paladin's Handbook might work. However, Lion are very similar to what a lot of people seem to think paladins are - utter ***** who use any excuse to force their ideals on others.
Proud Warrior Race - oh, definitely.

There's a lot of good Spider art, not just monks.
Daigotsu Endo (http://l5r.wikia.com/wiki/File:Daigotsu_Endo.jpg)
Daigotsu Yuhmi (http://static1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20090212121945/l5r/images/8/8e/Daigotsu_Yuhmi.jpg)
Daigotsu (http://static2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20080102220909/l5r/images/0/0d/Daigotsu.jpg)
Daigotsu Meguro (http://static3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20081125153644/l5r/images/4/46/Daigotsu_Meguro.jpg)
Daigotsu Bundoru (http://static4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20101227175742/l5r/images/f/fd/Daigotsu_Bundoru.jpg)
Some Chuda (http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_Vg6hs5UoBZI/TD0XijSUJnI/AAAAAAAAAZo/7cGoBcJ7THA/s1600/undead_chuda_final_sm.jpg)guy

But even compared to stuff like Oblivion's Gate and Enlightenment, the whole Spider thing was incredibly stupid and terribly conceived and executed.

[Kevka Palazzo]

And Kevka my thoughts on the Lion mostly come down to hating the Ikoma, not being sure how to actually play the Matsu and the Akodo and liking the conflict in the Kitsu. However, I'm not sure they're really very paladin'ish. They're more like the big, bad bully who can be used to stir everything up and cause added complications.


The Lion are honorable to a fault, but Honor=/=Good.
They are not paladins as traditionally presented in D&D. Some of the variants from The Complete Paladin's Handbook might work. However, Lion are very similar to what a lot of people seem to think paladins are - utter ***** who use any excuse to force their ideals on others.
Proud Warrior Race - oh, definitely.

Yeah, the Lion as a group are definitely bullies. L5R to me works best as a setting where there's lots of tragic "what's right vs. what's expected" conflicts, especially among the more honorable families. The only character I've played was a Matsu on his musha shugyo, and the idea was supposed to be that he gets caught between learning how to be a Good versus Honorable person. That game lasted two sessions so I only got to play up the bully/honor is everything angle.

And again, I give the Spider a bunch of love just for looking awesome. I had written up a Spider who I had planned to come to respect Bushido and the Empire, but never got to play him.

[Faily]

At this point, I've played so many different L5R-characters that I've found something I like with almost all the clans (not counting Spider, because **** the Spider).

I can get why some don't like the Dragon, but the reasons mentioned are pretty much why they are my favorite clan of all time (considering all the support I've given for the Dragon in the living storyline, it's obvious). But, YMMV. My suggestion is always to try and play a character from a clan you don't like very much, read up on their fluff and try to immerse yourself in that clan (or family). It worked for me to get over my dislike of the Lion. Frankly, for quite some time I thought the Phoenix were bland because they were the magical pacifists-but-not-really.

If you're not familiar with the setting, I recommend thinking up a concept you want to play. Watch a few samurai movies, or play some samurai-games or try some anime that fits the genre if you need inspiration. Once you have an idea, talk to your GM, or whoever in your group is most knowledgable on the setting to help point you in the right direction of what you might be looking for.

When I started up my current L5R-campaign, I had a lot of new players coming in who did not know the setting, so I wrote up a short blurb of the Empire's history (since we're playing in the Gozoku-period, it's not so much to remember yet), and gave them a brief write-up of each clan and family, and the current state/goal of the clan so they could have something to base their character on. It was a lot of groundwork for me, but I would honestly say that the work paid off as it seems all players are very fond of their character, and feel really tied to their clan.

[Terraoblivion]

I know about playing what you don't really like. I've done it quite a bit at various times. I mean, I used to hate the Crab for their machismo, then my second character was a Crab and a Hida at that. I don't quite like the Lion due to the whole bully thing, but I'm currently playing one, albeit a very weird, off-beat one. At this rate, I imagine that my next character will be a Dragon out of nowhere. Probably not a Togashi, though. I just plain don't understand them.

Really, the only family I doubt I'll ever overcome my dislike of through intense obsession with trying to understand my dislike of is the Ikoma. I know exactly why I hate them, it ties heavily into major aspects of my political and professional identity and I'm just plain too self-controlled to not cringe at doing a big, public crying or shouting scene no matter the cause.

[Kevka Palazzo]

Faily: When you say you've given support in the Living Storyline, do you mean you've played the card game and stuff? I've been looking to get into it myself, especially now that they're about to release a new base set.

[Faily]

Played in tournaments, participated in contests and votes (I have two named characters in the game), etc, and helping other people out with cards and such so they can build the deck they need... pretty much all of that. If you want to get into the card-game, I'd wait until 2014 when they launch the next edition. I'm personally on a break myself from tournaments and actively participating, as life and all is getting in the way.

Though, I've also used Personality-cards from time to time in the RPG to help the players visualize how NPCs look like, or give them the binder and find someone they think look like their character.

[Kevka Palazzo]

Played in tournaments, participated in contests and votes (I have two named characters in the game), etc, and helping other people out with cards and such so they can build the deck they need... pretty much all of that. If you want to get into the card-game, I'd wait until 2014 when they launch the next edition. I'm personally on a break myself from tournaments and actively participating, as life and all is getting in the way.

Though, I've also used Personality-cards from time to time in the RPG to help the players visualize how NPCs look like, or give them the binder and find someone they think look like their character.

I bought my local store's remaining stock of Emperor/Gempukku cards since they were on sale. I figure even if they're about to become obsolete I can practice with some of my buddies, then start reading through the Oracle once Ivory's out. Start some theorycrafting, then see about entering the tourney scene in 2015.

A long-term plan, to be sure, but I think if I try to rush in right now I'll just get disenfranchised.

[Kaun]

I do think the clans get stereo typed a little too heavily.

My players always seem to think if they are playing a Crab, that all social niceties go out the window and you should burp and fart and bluntly interrupt as much as humanly possible. Where as i have always thought it should be something a little more subtle.

Its not that the crab don't know the niceties, it's just that they aren't second nature to them like with many of the other clans. I wouldn't think they were rude for the sake of being rude. It's just that formal interactions are a game they only play occasionally so they have a habit of forgetting some of the steps.

[Terraoblivion]

Indeed. Just like Scorpions are usually no more sneaky than anybody else, because being needlessly sneaky is not only pointless, but likely to draw attention and ruin trust, making important matters harder to pull off.

[TimeWizard]

I'd never, ever trust a Scorpion that wasn't trying to hide something or be sneaky, because if they aren't hiding something from me in this interaction... I'm probably falling for a bigger ruse. The Con is that there's no Con. Then again, I'm a real big fan of schemes and deceptions, so maybe that's what they want me to think and that's why I always run away from Scorpion clan members.

[Terraoblivion]

That would be quite dishonorable behavior to judge the honor of Scorpions like that. :smalltongue:

Also, it would be kinda stupid as you'd fall prey to confirmation bias along with overlooking threats from other quarters if you act that paranoid all the time.

[TimeWizard]

While what you say is true, Terra, recall that I favor the Crab Clan: a people who value a healthy paranoia and appreciate the use of what is commonly called "low cunning" :smallwink:

Normal Crab Male interaction with Scorpion Female:
SF: Ohayo, Crab-san.
CM: <What's her game?>
SF: The weather is quite warm for Spring, ne?
CM: <A ninja is about to kill me. I should run.>

[Kaun]

While what you say is true, Terra, recall that I favor the Crab Clan: a people who value a healthy paranoia and appreciate the use of what is commonly called "low cunning" :smallwink:

Normal Crab Male interaction with Scorpion Female:
SF: Ohayo, Crab-san.
CM: <What's her game?>
SF: The weather is quite warm for Spring, ne?
CM: <A ninja is about to kill me. I should run.>

What edition did ninjas become a thing Crabs believed in? That's an honest question, i sorta stopped following the lore towards the second day of thunder.

[gman391]

Ultimately the truest way to not be used by the Scorpion is to trust them.
Scorpion get so much crap so that people who genuinely trust them are rare enough to give them pause and even build real friendships with you. They might still stab you in the back, but it'll be a lot nicer and less likely than if you were ***** to them.

The Lion are *****, but trying to not be a **** while playing one is an enjoyable tight rope for me and I find the idea of them ultimately failing to be an interesting one.

Spiders are...well I don't like spiders in Real Life and I found the resolution of the Destroyer War terribly handled and think Iweko is an idiot to let Satan get everything he wants for minor concessions. I find them better as villains, we already have a semi fallen clan that does dark things for the greater good, they're the Scorpion.

That's all I'm going to say about that.

[BWR]

What edition did ninjas become a thing Crabs believed in? That's an honest question, i sorta stopped following the lore towards the second day of thunder.

The Crab believe in anything that comes to kill them in the night. And ever since Kisada had to fight them off in "Death at Koten" (another idiocy).

But that post was mostly a joke, I believe. "Way of the Ninja" brings up the discussion on what exactly constitues a ninja and lo and behold, most clans have something approximating them. It makes more sense if one thinks of them less as NINJA! and more as special forces.

The Hiruma are basically ninja - sneak around, gather info and the First Strike dojo trains people to kill enemies. It's just that this is all directed towards the Shadowlands so the Empire doesn't really know about them (heck, in Faily's Gozoku campaign I'm playing a Hiruma who is definitely the ninja of the group, doing a much better job at that than the party's Scorpion).

The Crane had their Harriers (leaving aside that discussion for now), the Lion have Ikoma scouts, etc. While jumping over rooftops in black pajamas is generally not their main task, they count as ninja.

[TimeWizard]

Big Wround Rabbit's* has it right. "Ninja" might not be a thing to a Crab Samurai, but "look at this thing, while another thing I don't want you to see is sneaking up behind you" is the first level of basic deception, but it was just a joke post anyway.

*Not guaranteed to be what BWR stands for.

[Sephoris]

Faily: When you say you've given support in the Living Storyline, do you mean you've played the card game and stuff? I've been looking to get into it myself, especially now that they're about to release a new base set.

If you're looking to have some impact on the storyline and aren't particularly interested in the card game, there is Winter Court. Every winter there's an official play-by-post RPG session that has storyline consequences. It's not nearly as large as the card game's effect, of course, and there's usually some stiff competition to get in, but it's a nice bone they've thrown to the primarily RPG players.

[BWR]

Supposedly, but I've heard some very bad things about the official Winter Court games, like an ******* GM who blatantly ignore established canon for their own purposes, ignoring legitimate complaints, AEG entirely dismissing any complaints against said GM, totally ignoring things that happened at WC to support their own vision of what the story should be, etc.

Some of this is understandable, to a degree. One WC, the player who played Shouro Jimen made a complete hash of the character and in order to salvage the character at all for the rest of the story the ST had to ignore what that player did. But there are examples of players who work hard and RPed well to achieve results which are ignored for no apparant reason other than the ST's usual idiocy.

[Terraoblivion]

It's not every winter. There's been three official winter courts in something like 10 years. They do happen occasionally, though, and they're still keeping it up given that the most recent one was last winter. Which was pretty much about invalidating half the Second City boxset, from what I can tell.