Villains we got sad about.

[AstralFire]

Just curious if anyone's on the same wavelength as me.

Malack, Priest of Nergal: was an awful creature who could not be permitted to execute his plans, but at some level, I get a little bit sad rereading the bit where he briefly argues and reconciles with Tarquin. Whether Tarquin was sincerely repentant or merely conciliatory (I think the latter), it's clear to me that there was genuine friendship between them, and it feels a waste that that's gone now.

Nale: I hope we never see again (even in the afterlife), I think he literally got what he was asking for, and Sabine is just as good a psychotic murderer as he. But nevertheless, on reread, I can't help but feel a little bit sad for the two of them.

Tarquin: Not dead yet. May not die anytime soon. Would be surprised if he lives through the whole comic though. Again, monstrous person who the world is better off without. Rejected by the son he wanted to make like himself, even after trying to put aside the immense harm his son had committed. Best friend murdered by said son. In general, has no idea what he's doing with either child. His plan can't be stopped fast enough for me, yet at the same time, it feels like a waste to me.

Tsukiko I don't think I have to explain, nor Samantha and her father (the bandits). But there is one exception for me...

Redcloak: After reading Start of Darkness, he might have counted with me once upon a time, but after having the gumption to off his own brother for the greater good, but not the courage to keep standing up to Xykon over not reanimating his brother, I think I am actually less sympathetic to Redcloak than I was from reading the online comic only. I feel really bad for Right-Eye and his family, of course.

[Paseo H]

I felt bad about Miko.

Sure, she'd been a total you-know-what up to that point, but in my view she actually started to redeem herself ever so slightly. Not to the point of true redemption, but the fact that she was accepting what Soon was telling her hinted to me that she had finally started to see that everything she'd said and done up to that point was horribly wrong.

After all, the Miko before that would have surely accused Soon of being some sort of devil or demon disguising himself as a ghost to trick her.

[AstralFire]

I didn't even really think of her as a villain. An antagonist, to be sure. Her ending was really pretty heartwrenching.

[ti'esar]

I'm always surprised by how many people's first reaction to the death of an OOTS villain (or, really, any character) is to get really sad. I may "miss" various villains in the sense that they brought something entertaining to the story, but the only one I actually felt bad about was Nale.

And I know already that I'm not going to miss Tarquin at all.

[Paseo H]

The deaths in this series tend to be a bit 'brutal' in a certain sense. To the point where you may feel bad for the person on the receiving end in spite of yourself.

Like Nale. Sure, he was a monster, but Tarquin was utterly cold blooded about it.

[AstralFire]

I'm always surprised by how many people's first reaction to the death of an OOTS villain (or, really, any character) is to get really sad. I may "miss" various villains in the sense that they brought something entertaining to the story, but the only one I actually felt bad about was Nale.

And I know already that I'm not going to miss Tarquin at all.

Conversely, Nale's death is the only one who I had the initial reaction of "GLEE!" to. I found him utterly tiresome in every way, where with the others I have at least the reaction of "well, I enjoyed stories in which you were a villain and you were part of why I enjoyed that."

I expect I'll feel some sympathy for Redcloak at the end, and I will have none for Xykon, of course. Which is... problematic, I think, given the ethos espoused in the story. Ideally, I don't think there should be many stories where the death of anyone is a cause for joy.

But eh.

[Knight.Anon]

I hated it when Right-Eye got killed, He was Red Cloaks last chance. It must be hard for RC to look in a mirror now and not see his brother.

It would have also been better if Miko had to live with her shame and walk the earth for a few years.

[Gift Jeraff]

I felt bad about Nale. He was the underdog who hates Tarquin and thinks he's an idiot, all things I can sympathize with. However, he got a fairly clean death.

Conversely, Tsukiko got a pretty horrifying death, and I felt she wasn't even that bad of a person. At least compared to V/Xykon/Nale/Tarquin/Malack.

I don't feel bad for Redcloak. I hate him for what he does in SoD.

[ti'esar]

Yeah, I should have mentioned Tsukiko too.


I hated it when Right-Eye got killed, He was Red Cloaks last chance. It must be hard for RC to look in a mirror now and not see his brother.

I don't think Right-Eye qualified as a villain in any sense of the word, at least not by the time of his death.

[Bird]

Malack, for me -- not out of empathy, but because I wanted to read more about his relationship with Durkon.

[Ellye]

Nale death scene made me feel "sorry" not for his death per see, but it was on that scene that we found out why Nale was the way he was.
Honestly, imagining a kid growing up under the shadow of Tarquin made me feel sorry for him.

[AstralFire]

Yeah, I should have mentioned Tsukiko too.



I don't think Right-Eye qualified as a villain in any sense of the word, at least not by the time of his death.

Agreed. I'd go with:
Right-Eye: Anti-Hero --> Hero --> Dead
Redcloak: Hero --> Anti-Villain --> Villain

It was my mistake for mentioning Right-Eye in the same breath as Redcloak.

[The Oni]

Nale is a bastard. He's a ruthless killer, a familial traitor, a perpetual Starscream and apparently a vicious racist (whether against vampires or lizardfolk I'm not sure, but I'd guess vampires) and he's apparently been that way since he was a kid. He completely brought his death upon himself. I don't know why anyone would feel bad about his death except to the extent that it affected his goodhearted brother. I understand that upbringing has a little to do with it but remember, Haley was raised by a paranoid psycho too and she came out all right.

Tsukiko's was sad. She was a nasty person and a bit sadistic, but that was an exceptionally cruel death even for her. Really, just consider how that scene would've been rendered in a non-stick figure comic and you'll cringe a bit.

Miko was willfully ignorant, and really it's hard to see her death as anyone's fault but her own. Granted, I felt a little more for her than for Nale but that's probably because I'm a guy who likes Asian warrior-ladies. So objectively, not all that upset.

I'm sure I'm not alone in saying I have very mixed feelings about Malack. Never have I seen a character so effortlessly walk the border that is the Noble Demon archetype.

I'm not sure if I want Tarquin to die or not. The best comeuppance for that guy would be to be exiled to some backwater town and to live to 120 in boring, undramatic peace - but part of me really wants to see him get his dramatic finish, briefly but futilely holding off the Snarl.

Regarding villains I WOULD be sad about if something happened: I'm starting to really like Laurin. Even if in the end she's a throwaway minion she seems like an interesting mismatch with the rest of the Vector Cabal.

[StLordeth]

"Sad' is a strong word for comic characters, but Malack's death took me by a huge surprise.

I can't stand Nale, and Tsukiko's death was one of the coolest moments in the comic.

Miko was NOT a villain. And her death was a good one, glad she hasn't been brought back.

SoD really showed how monstrous Xykon was, even to his own allies. Redcloak is still the most interesting villain, and Right-Eye was awesome.

[The Pilgrim]

I felt sad about Miko, and about Nale. The first a victim of lack of human interaction turned mad. The second a brutalized child turned a monster.

Redcloak? He is at the border, will depend of what he does until the end of the comic.

Tsukiko was so unpleasant as a person and such an annoying little brat that her death scene looked kinda cool for me.

Tarquin? If he kicks the bucket, I think he will beat Kubota on my list of less sympatetic death scenes ever.

[Mike Havran]

Malack's fate felt uneasy, especially because Nale showed glimse of competence I've never seen in him before (or after, for that matter). However, Malack was immortal villain with horrible plans, he needed to go.

I'm the most sad about Samantha's dad, even though I don't think he was a "villain" in a straight sense.

[Gift Jeraff]

I felt upset about Malack's death...

...upset that it wasn't torturous enough. Hopefully, Tarquin's death makes up for it.

[The Oni]

Also I don't know if Therkla counts since she was "redeemed" from her villainy almost immediately, but bless her green-tinted soul.

[BlackDragonKing]

In order, I suppose...

-I hate people like Miko who always blame others for their own shortcomings and never assume responsibility for their actions, but I don't think she really deserved to die like that compared to having to live knowing how wrong she was about everything. I felt for her a little, but I wasn't saddened she was gone for good.
-Kubota's death was for the wrong reasons, but god was it satisfying.
-I feel bad for the Black Dragons that got familicided, but the ABD getting curb-stomped was no more than I felt she'd earned, and I would not have had any sympathy for her if the fight had ended with that last Shapechange blowing her apart.
-Tsukiko's a pretty bad person, but that was a really horrible way to die. It made me more sympathetic than I'd have been if Redcloak had simply annihilated her with his magic.
-I did actually feel bad for Malack's death. His grand designs for a Vampiric empire could obviously not be allowed to come to pass, but he was an interesting variation on the "Noble Demon" archetype, in my opinion, and it rankled me that he was not slain by a hero avenging Durkon and saving future billions but by a petty egomaniac killing him purely out of spite. His death also sadly meant there were no chances to explore his relationship with Durkon further, which could have been interesting. I have mixed feelings about all of Team Tarquin, but seeing any of them killed by the Linear Guild or Team Evil is going to put me more on their side than if the Order or a hero does the deed.
-Zz'drti was such a non-character I only observed his death as proof this isn't the same old Durkon we're dealing with anymore.
-Nale got exactly what he deserved after escaping the consequences of his heroic defeats too many times for my liking, and he was killed by a clearly established character flaw, his inability to keep his mouth shut. I didn't care at all that he died; I believe the Giant's comment Nale is just as evil as Xykon and Tarquin, he's just a vicious incompetent on top of it. I don't care much for that kind of villain, and so Nale's suicidal tantrum at the end did not make his character any more sympathetic than the mass-murder at Cliffport or falling for V's obvious taunt did. I still don't like that he was killed by a villain and not a hero, but unfortunately the heroes keep on throwing him in jail and I was getting REALLY sick of Nale's endless comebacks.

[Kornaki]

it rankled me that he was not slain by a hero avenging Durkon and saving future billions but by a petty egomaniac killing him purely out of spite.

In Nale's defense he killed Malack out of self defense, not spite.


-Zz'drti was such a non-character I only observed his death as proof this isn't the same old Durkon we're dealing with anymore.

Ironically Zz'dtri is actually the one that I felt the worst for because he looked so happy right before he got killed.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0907.html

Look at how much he's smiling right before he gets executed. How can you not feel at least a little bad about that? We've never really seen him do anything evil either so it's hard to think of him as someone that deserves to die. I mean yeah he's fought the order a couple times but those were legitimate business grievances they were settling (his business being villainy obviously).

[Angel Bob]

I was saddened by Malack's death because I didn't feel we'd seen enough of him yet. He was easily one of my favourite characters from the entire comic, and I miss him already. But I don't mourn his passing; I'm no apologist. He was a horrible abomination through and through, even if he was a likeable personality.

Tarquin I know I will not miss at all, for the opposite reason: I feel we've seen too much of him. He's trying too hard to supplant Xykon as the big bad, and I am going to be so pleased when it bites him in the ass.

However, I will readily concede that the deaths of Tsukiko and Nale did have an emotional effect on me. Now, initially, my reaction to Nale's death was simply one of shock; it was only once I saw Elan's reaction that I was actually saddened. In the time since, I've started to realize that Nale was a much more tragic character than previously believed, even if he was a psychotic jackass.

Tsukiko has shades of the same pattern, though on a much smaller scale, of course. Her death is saddening because it's so cruel and brutal, and exposes how insecure she really was under all of it. Her last words are especially poignant. I think that's one thing the Giant excels at doing: manipulating the audience's opinion of characters, such that we might feel nothing but hatred for them up until their death, and then suddenly reverse to pity -- but without breaking character at all. His characters are truly robust, and have layers upon layers of characterization, which is what makes the comic such a joy to read.


We've never really seen him [Zz'ditri] do anything evil either so it's hard to think of him as someone that deserves to die. I mean yeah he's fought the order a couple times but those were legitimate business grievances they were settling (his business being villainy obviously).

Gotta disagree with you there. Sure, Z doesn't exult in his evil like Nale does, but he's a nasty character, all right. In the comic directly prior (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0906.html), he's smiling just as much -- just before he serves Malack an agonizing death. And I shouldn't have to mention how happy he is to petrify (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0053.html) an innocent sylph. To be fair, petrifying an Outsider is much more lenient than killing them, as Celia mentions here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0669.html) -- but also keep in mind that Z had no expectation that Celia would ever be disenchanted.

[Kornaki]

Gotta disagree with you there. Sure, Z doesn't exult in his evil like Nale does, but he's a nasty character, all right. In the comic directly prior (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0906.html), he's smiling just as much -- just before he serves Malack an agonizing death.

Being happy while killing a vampire isn't something I'm ready to toss into the 'evil' column just yet.



And I shouldn't have to mention how happy he is to petrify (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0053.html) an innocent sylph. To be fair, petrifying an Outsider is much more lenient than killing them, as Celia mentions here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0669.html) -- but also keep in mind that Z had no expectation that Celia would ever be disenchanted.

This is true.... I'm not sure if they were going to leave her stoned forever though, because why else would Nale have brought that stone to flesh scroll (and told Thog about it even). They must have been planning on bringing somebody back at some point. But at any rate I had forgotten about stoning Celia back then.

[Sunken Valley]

I felt sad for Miko. She tried to do what she thought was the right thing and only at the end realised she was wrong.

I felt sad for YokYok. He was nothing like his father but still avenged him.

I felt sad for Thog (if he's dead). He didn't even know where he was.

I felt sad for the booted wight. It ate all it's friends and burnt itself alive.

Finally, I felt sad for Malack. Killed by the one he hated most. Plus a vampire empire would be cool.

[Gorbad Ironclaw]

I actually have a lot of sympathy for Nale. His deeds weren't excusable, and he was a villainous sociopath on top of that. But his rant right before Tarquin killed him revealed so much about him, and explained (but didn't justify) his actions. I feel sorry that he got raised by Tarquin.

[BlackDragonKing]

In Nale's defense he killed Malack out of self defense, not spite.

Self-defense was a concern, I will concede, but if Malack had not wanted to kill him Nale still would have done him in. It doesn't really change my opinion of it at all that I wanted someone sympathetic to kill Malack for good reasons, not the likes of Nale.


Ironically Zz'dtri is actually the one that I felt the worst for because he looked so happy right before he got killed.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0907.html

Look at how much he's smiling right before he gets executed. How can you not feel at least a little bad about that? We've never really seen him do anything evil either so it's hard to think of him as someone that deserves to die. I mean yeah he's fought the order a couple times but those were legitimate business grievances they were settling (his business being villainy obviously).

I've always been of the conclusion that Z has so little personality from how utterly terse he is that the only character he has is what people infer from his expressions. My personal inference was that Z is a rather nasty person, seeing as he never smiles when something bad isn't happening to someone else. He grins turning people to stone, or when Malack's about to burn to death, but otherwise he's blank-faced. When an ally presents a challenge to him, Z doesn't hesitate at all to try and solve the problem by killing said ally, and I think the most telling thing about Z is his relationship with V.

Z hates V. Madly. Passionately. So much that he has cripplingly overspecialized his build specifically to fight V, a unoptimized wizard that could more efficiently be combated by just playing something more complex than blaster-caster to take advantage of game-breaking wizardry. Why does he do this? What did V do that wronged him so thoroughly?

She...erm...defended herself against Z's unprovoked attack. She had the nerve to outsmart him when he had her cornered, and then she did it again in the rematch, which is the only time we've seen Z enraged.

It's just as easy to infer that Z was just as arrogant and vicious as Nale, maybe even more so, as it is to infer anything positive about him.

[Angel Bob]

Being happy while killing a vampire isn't something I'm ready to toss into the 'evil' column just yet.

While I'll admit that Malack was an abomination whose destruction needed to happen, I doubt Z was doing it out of the kindness of his heart. If you want to put a more positive spin on it, his motivation probably had to do with his loyalty to Nale... but I'd argue that smile is more sinister than it might appear, especially considering the pointed eyebrows Z's sporting at that moment.

Oh, and I believe I forgot to list that time Z tried to kill his own ally (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0800.html). (Actually, he ended up succeeding (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0848.html), though that spell was cast with other targets in mind.) Point is, he was a nasty character, even if he had a certain charm to him. It's the same way with Malack and all the other villains with a fanbase.

[Ghost Nappa]

1) The Victims of Familicide
2) Right-Eye the Goblin Rogue
2.5) Redcloak (his origin is depressing)
3) Miko Miyozaki (Not a Villain, but an antagonist. As deluded as she was, I do hold Shojo partly responsible for her actions.)
3.5) Thog (if dead)
3.P) Therkla (if you can consider her a villain)
4) Nale (Tarquin's murder of him was surprising)
5) Malack (his cries for help shocked me)
6) Samantha's Father
7) The Giant Devil that is now a tombstone for Therkla
8) Tsukiko (she had it coming, but her death wasn't clean)
9) The Heavily-Templated Snail for never showing up again
10) The 2nd level Commoner Scruffy disemboweled in the Arena
11) The Guard Belkar fed the 2nd level Commoner's intestines to
12) Enor & Gannji (if you can consider them Villains)
13) The Demon Roach Jirix steps on

[Chronos]

Nale's death itself, I can't really bring myself to sorrow over... He literally got exactly what he asked for. But what does bring me sorrow is Elan's reaction to him and his death. Nale might have deserved that, but Elan certainly didn't.

[BlackDragonKing]

3) Miko Miyozaki (Not a Villain, but an antagonist. As deluded as she was, I do hold Hinjo partly responsible for her actions.)

I don't see how Hinjo is at all responsible for anything Miko did. He stood up to her when she straight-up murdered his uncle out of paranoia and nearly got killed because she lashed out at him like a goddamn psychopath when he tried to talk her down.

Hinjo's handling of the situation was everything you can reasonably ask of a Lawful Good character, how do you hold him responsible? :smallconfused:

[Ghost Nappa]

I don't see how Hinjo is at all responsible for anything Miko did. He stood up to her when she straight-up murdered his uncle out of paranoia and nearly got killed because she lashed out at him like a goddamn psychopath when he tried to talk her down.

Hinjo's handling of the situation was everything you can reasonably ask of a Lawful Good character, how do you hold him responsible? :smallconfused:

Sorry, it should have read Shojo. My brain farted.

[Muenster Man]

I haven't felt much sadness about Nale's death, but it was the most shocking event I'd seen in the comic since I started reading.


Malack, for me -- not out of empathy, but because I wanted to read more about his relationship with Durkon.

Agreed, if his relationship with Durkon was strong enough to let the Order continue hiding, I would like to know exactly what inspired that shred of humanity, which is about a shred more than we've ever seen from Tarquin. I guess we'll never know, oh well :smallsigh:

I think Tsukiko's death hit me with sympathy the hardest of all the villains. I felt even stronger about Therkla's death, but I wouldn't classify her as a villain.

[HZ514]

The only villain I was sad to see die in the moment was Malack. He had so much more potential to be Evil with a capital E after the true depth of his depravity was revealed. Yet he would also always exude that aura of civility that made him so especially dangerous. I liked him a lot as a character. Seeing him meet such an ignominious end at the hands of the buffoon that was Nale (especially considering any badass points Nale earned in the process were promptly lost anyway) was...disappointing. But of course, the story was never meant to have Malack as its villain and it's rather late to introduce rather than eliminate key players. RIP Malack, you clueless barbarian shaman you.

(SoD spoilers, naturally.
When I first read SoD, I found Redcloak to be deeply sympathetic and then utterly despicable. Throwing away his only family like that, especially since his hatred of humans derives from their killing Redcloak's family and tribe, was completely unforgivable.

But then I read it again, and I started to come around back to sympathy once more. He lost almost everyone to a vicious and meaningless Paladin raid. It fell to him, just a boy at the time, to don the Crimson Mantle. Consider what that means. I'd imagine that becoming the chosen leader of your peoples to eternal salvation is quite the burden to bear. But it fell to him, just a boy at the time, to do so.

In that moment, or perhaps as time passed and he became better attuned to the Mantle's magic/knowledge/etc., Redcloak was no longer the young goblin boy who lost his family. He was responsible for so much more than the bonds of blood, his entire race depended on his success; the success of The Plan.

It was more than his personal goal, it was his God-given purpose in life. Then he happens across a monumentally powerful and even more evil sorcerer who can make The Dark One's plans a reality. Is it risky? You better bet it is. Way more risky than any mentally sound mortal (Right-Eye) would ever accept. But Right-Eye didn't have the Mantle on; didn't know its teachings; didn't feel it's calling. Right-Eye made the decision he felt was for the best, and walked away.

Redcloak also made the decisions he felt were for the best. He enacted The Plan, as he saw it. Then fate led the two of them to an impasse. Right-Eye, in his profoundly mortal view of the world, saw Xykon as a threat which needed to be neutralized. He acted on that belief.

Redcloak, in his deifically enhanced view of the world, saw Xykon as perhaps the only tool with which to grant all goblins the sanctuary and justice they deserved. In that moment, with Right-Eye plotting to kill Xykon, he was jeopardizing The Plan. He wasn't [that little boy]'s brother, he was an enemy to all goblinkind. Redcloak believed he knew what had to be done, and he did it.

That sacrifice was necessary, but that doesn't mean it didn't hurt. But the only way for a painful sacrifice to hurt less is for it to have been truly worth something. That's why Redcloak allows Xykon to defile Right-Eye's corpse and gloat about it. He can't go back now. He's made his choice to follow this path toward The Plan to its bitter end, and it would only make things worse to let little things like guilt or pride get in the way of that now.

Xykon sees Redcloak's forced servility as weakness. I see it as strength. He truly believes that what he's doing is for the best of all goblinkind. Sure, petty vengeance makes killing humans a solid perk on the side. But at the end of the day, Redcloak is the chosen one of The Dark One. He isn't that little boy who saw his family get slaughtered anymore, and he hasn't been since he donned the Crimson Mantle. It's a profoundly sad existence, but someone has to do it. I respect Redcloak, heck I even like him. He isn't evil for evil's sake, he's only evil because he fights for the greater good of a group of beings that isn't our protagonists and is willing to do whatever it takes to get the job done. Because otherwise, it was all for nothing.

[Gift Jeraff]

Seeing him meet such an ignominious end

was great. 11/10 would watch scream in agony again

[dancrilis]

The amount of lack of understanding the Xykon receives makes me sad.

Here is a man that has been put down by people all his life, but who consistently rose above their petty insults to make something of himself.

Than he is nearing the end of his life and he finds out that the gods have been playing everyone as chumps since before the beginning of the world and he is offered a chance to even the playing field.

Here is one man who is reviled for daring to have the audacity to indicate that regular people can have control over their own lives - that ultra-powerful outsiders can be stood up to.
He should be a beacon of hope in the darkness - a shining light for the mortal races to look to and admire. But instead for his idiosyncrasies he is hated and feared.

Truly he is the tragic hero of the Order of the Stick.

[Gift Jeraff]

The amount of lack of understanding the Xykon receives makes me sad.

Here is a man that has been put down by people all his life, but who consistently rose above their petty insults to make something of himself.

Than he is nearing the end of his life and he finds out that the gods have been playing everyone as chumps since before the beginning of the world and he is offered a chance to even the playing field.

Here is one man who is reviled for daring to have the audacity to indicate that regular people can have control over their own lives - that ultra-powerful outsiders can be stood up to.
He should be a beacon of hope in the darkness - a shining light for the mortal races to look to and admire. But instead for his idiosyncrasies he is hated and feared.

Truly he is the tragic hero of the Order of the Stick.

He even gives up his own humanity for this great cause.

[DaggerPen]

Nale and Tsukiko, definitely. They were both terrible people, but seeing Elan's grief over Nale's death really got me, not to mention putting it in the context of Elan's mother crying over her "lost nail" . And Tsukiko... man. Just ouch.

Plus Therkla, but she hardly counted as a villain. She was barely even antagonistic to Elan's half of the Order for a few strips before she went over to his side. Also, NGL, I thought her death felt forced.

EDIT: Oh man, how could I forget Miko. Yeah, her death definitely got me. "Will I get to see Windstriker again?" Just. Ow.

[AgentofHellfire]

I definitely felt sad about Tsukiko's death, actually. The insecurity she had at the heart of it all was...really touching. To me.


I really did also want Malack to be around a bit longer--he was actually kind of cool, and I, as others have said, wanted to see more of him.

Tarquin on the other hand, is an absolute prick. I started off--even stayed for a while longer--liking the fellow, but the way he treats his sons is kind of terrible. His obsession with order is terrible. Gah.

[DaggerPen]

Nale is a bastard. He's a ruthless killer, a familial traitor, a perpetual Starscream and apparently a vicious racist (whether against vampires or lizardfolk I'm not sure, but I'd guess vampires) and he's apparently been that way since he was a kid.

Wait, what? I'm not denying that Nale was an awful, awful person, but where are you getting that? He hated Malack, sure, but the impression I got was that he hated Malack specifically, not either vampires or lizardfolk in general.


Even if in the end she's a throwaway minion she seems like an interesting mismatch with the rest of the Vector Cabal.

I really like this name for the team. That is all.

[AgentofHellfire]

Wait, what? I'm not denying that Nale was an awful, awful person, but where are you getting that? He hated Malack, sure, but the impression I got was that he hated Malack specifically, not either vampires or lizardfolk in general.

Yeah, given his opinion of Tarquin, and tendency towards petty grudges, it's entirely likely that he just hates anyone who likes Tarquin.

[Tengu_temp]

It actually felt good to me when Miko, Tsukiko and Malack died. They all got what they deserved, and I wanted to see them dead.

Nale's death was sad, because as much of a horrible murderous jerk he was, I understood the root of his daddy issues. He still had it coming though.

[Soylent Dave]

A few of the villains' deaths are certainly tragic - not that they aren't deserving of justice, but the manner of the deaths often reveals or highlights the tragedy of the life that led them to such an end.

I'm thinking of Miko and Tsukiko in particular here.

Malack does have a similar moment, but it's when he's describing the death of the person he was, pre-vamp (long ago) to Durkon, quite a while before his in-comic death.

Nale, I'm not so sure about - he's had ample opportunity to redeem himself; he was doomed more by his own arrogance than anything else (although an arrogance that was bred into him by his upbringing, so not entirely of his own doing).

But obviously the most tragic character in the whole strip is Redcloak, for SoD reasons.

He's fighting for something he's either already lost or can never achieve - and he's given up everything for it.

[The Oni]

Wait, what? I'm not denying that Nale was an awful, awful person, but where are you getting that? He hated Malack, sure, but the impression I got was that he hated Malack specifically, not either vampires or lizardfolk in general.

He hated Malack's kind enough to kill all his children. He also calls him a bloodsucker and an "insufferable leech." He doesn't appear to have this same hatred for Myron or Laurin, and they both like Tarquin (or at the very least used to and are still going through the motions.)

[Angel Bob]

He hated Malack's kind enough to kill all his children. He also calls him a bloodsucker and an "insufferable leech." He doesn't appear to have this same hatred for Myron or Laurin, and they both like Tarquin (or at the very least used to and are still going through the motions.)

Keep in mind that Nale killed Malack's children "as a practice run" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0906.html) -- as in, his true goal was and always has been killing Malack specifically. As messed-up as Nale was, his hatred was purely directed towards Malack, not vampires in general; keep in mind that he actually tries to recruit a vampire into the Linear Guild in the very next strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0907.html).

[Kish]

Wait, what? I'm not denying that Nale was an awful, awful person, but where are you getting that? He hated Malack, sure, but the impression I got was that he hated Malack specifically, not either vampires or lizardfolk in general.
Indeed, he might have survived had he been sufficiently violently prejudiced against the life impaired to immediately attack Vampire Durkon along with his sire, instead of trying to recruit him.

[Anajamois]

I am still moping over Malack. While he talked a great deal over his awful, awful plans, I don't recall him doing anything reprehensible on-screen, so I had little reason to dislike him.

I felt his friendships with Durkon and Tarquin were entirely genuine, and loved seeing the little snippets detailing this, such as the dialogue-less passage of time where Malack and Durkon are laughing on the balcony, or when they're talking with V present, or the part after Tarquin apologises and they immediately reminisce over old times.

I don't even blame him for Durkon's death. I was incredibly annoyed that Durkon insisted on fighting even though Malack clearly did not want to lose their friendship. I'm sure Durkon's true calling should have been Paladin, with an attitude like that.

He was a soft-spoken character. Perhaps he could have been talked out of his plan, or at least have altered it somehow. But we won't know now.

[AstralFire]

Soft-spoken is not timid or unresolved; I think Malack showed that very well. Whatever regret I may feel at him being shuffled off the mortal coil, I don't think the Malack that we met had any chance of being turned off of his path.

[Paseo H]

I don't even blame him for Durkon's death. I was incredibly annoyed that Durkon insisted on fighting even though Malack clearly did not want to lose their friendship. I'm sure Durkon's true calling should have been Paladin, with an attitude like that.


Agreed.

All he had to do was give up the rest of his friends, and his sense of loyalty and honor towards them and all he held dear as a priest of Thor, but yes, it'd have gone far better for him if he had.

[Kish]

I don't even blame him for Durkon's death. I was incredibly annoyed that Durkon insisted on fighting even though Malack clearly did not want to lose their friendship. I'm sure Durkon's true calling should have been Paladin, with an attitude like that.
The disturbing thing is that you apparently think that's an insult to Durkon.

[BlackDragonKing]

I don't even blame him for Durkon's death. I was incredibly annoyed that Durkon insisted on fighting even though Malack clearly did not want to lose their friendship. I'm sure Durkon's true calling should have been Paladin, with an attitude like that.

Durkon did force the issue, but he was right that there was no way for him to step aside and avoid fighting Malack without compromising everything he believed in. Even for someone you truly consider a friend, that is too much to ask, especially when the world is at stake.

I felt sad for Malack trying to figure out a way to escape from having to fight someone he had come to genuinely respect as a friend, but what I was most sad about was that an opportunity was missed without Malack even realizing it.

If Malack had been willing to consider going against Tarquin and calling off this playing of the Linear Guild against the Order (for a goal Tarquin was simply considering a race to the finish, anyway), there would have been the possibility Malack could change. Maybe not a big one, but it would have existed.

Malack refused to go against his old friend for the sake of his new one, and that ultimately was what showed he couldn't be turned away from all of this.

[The Oni]

Keep in mind that Nale killed Malack's children "as a practice run" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0906.html) -- as in, his true goal was and always has been killing Malack specifically. As messed-up as Nale was, his hatred was purely directed towards Malack, not vampires in general; keep in mind that he actually tries to recruit a vampire into the Linear Guild in the very next strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0907.html).

You...are entirely correct. I retract my statement.

Still, this begs the question of what precisely Malack did to Nale that caused such insane hatred. If it was solely to get back at dear old dad, it'd have been directed at his humanoid compatriots, too.

...Maybe he fed on someone young Nale was friends with, and didn't know about it? But Malack only eats rightfully convicted criminals, being the Lawfulest of the Lawful Evils and all.

Or...maybe that's when he *started* only eating criminals...

[Anajamois]

Durkon did force the issue, but he was right that there was no way for him to step aside and avoid fighting Malack without compromising everything he believed in. Even for someone you truly consider a friend, that is too much to ask, especially when the world is at stake.

I felt sad for Malack trying to figure out a way to escape from having to fight someone he had come to genuinely respect as a friend, but what I was most sad about was that an opportunity was missed without Malack even realizing it.

If Malack had been willing to consider going against Tarquin and calling off this playing of the Linear Guild against the Order (for a goal Tarquin was simply considering a race to the finish, anyway), there would have been the possibility Malack could change. Maybe not a big one, but it would have existed.

Malack refused to go against his old friend for the sake of his new one, and that ultimately was what showed he couldn't be turned away from all of this.

You do make some good points. I guess Malack was as stubborn as Durkon, though on a different issue. But it has to be understood that maintaining friendships between two people that hate one another often forces one to choose a side, and having known Tarquin longer and better, it isn't hard to see why.

I just wish Durkon had let it slide somehow. I'm no stranger to standing by your ethics (having tested as Lawful Neutral several times myself), but there's sometimes some kind of compromise, one in which neither would die or forsake their beliefs... I know moping over it doesn't change anything, but sometimes you just wonder how you would have handled it.

(P.S. I must say I'm slightly amused that my viewpoint upset a few people.)

[DaggerPen]

Agreed.

All he had to do was give up the rest of his friends, and his sense of loyalty and honor towards them and all he held dear as a priest of Thor, but yes, it'd have gone far better for him if he had.

Nicely said.


You do make some good points. I guess Malack was as stubborn as Durkon, though on a different issue. But it has to be understood that maintaining friendships between two people that hate one another often forces one to choose a side, and having known Tarquin longer and better, it isn't hard to see why.

I just wish Durkon had let it slide somehow. I'm no stranger to standing by your ethics (having tested as Lawful Neutral several times myself), but there's sometimes some kind of compromise, one in which neither would die or forsake their beliefs... I know moping over it doesn't change anything, but sometimes you just wonder how you would have handled it.

(P.S. I must say I'm slightly amused that my viewpoint upset a few people.)

Nnnh. I don't really want to get pulled into this again, but...

"But it has to be understood that maintaining friendships between two people that hate one another often forces one to choose a side, and having known Tarquin longer and better, it isn't hard to see why."

Let's reword this slightly:

"But it has to be understood that maintaining friendships between two people that hate one another often forces one to choose a side, and having known Tarquin The Order longer and better, it isn't hard to see why."

Malack was siding with the friends he'd known longer. So was Durkon. All of Malack's compromises involved Durkon abandoning them, his mission (which involved, I might add, saving the world), or both. And Malack was the one who betrayed Durkon first, by choosing not only to go with Tarquin to seize the rift but by actively attempting to kill and vampirize Belkar, who he knew from Tarquin's reveal was one of Durkon's teammates.

[Anajamois]

Malack was siding with the friends he'd known longer. So was Durkon. All of Malack's compromises involved Durkon abandoning them, his mission (which involved, I might add, saving the world), or both. And Malack was the one who betrayed Durkon first, by choosing not only to go with Tarquin to seize the rift but by actively attempting to kill and vampirize Belkar, who he knew from Tarquin's reveal was one of Durkon's teammates.

Yes, I know that they were both members of opposing teams, but Malack attempted to explain that didn't mean they had to be enemies.

Belkar wasn't exactly about the "oh gee let's just pretend we never bumped into each other" scene either. Belkar was willing to fight, Malack was willing to fight, a one-on-one duel. Fair's fair. Didn't mean bringing the rest of the Order into it.

And this part:

And Malack was the one who betrayed Durkon first, by choosing not only to go with Tarquin to seize the rift

I must disagree with you there, and point out that Malack agreed to join, and specifically asked to be the one to deal with Durkon. This prevented Tarquin from potentially killing him in the ambush. And later on, when they finally met, the last thing Malack wanted to do was fight Durkon.

I think it's clear that Malack joined up not only at the request of his friend, but to spare Durkon also. Not to betray him.

[Zmeoaice]

Agreed.

All he had to do was give up the rest of his friends, and his sense of loyalty and honor towards them and all he held dear as a priest of Thor, but yes, it'd have gone far better for him if he had.

Ironically, the outcome would be no different if Durkon had taken Malack's offer for the Order to evacuate the pyramid. Tarquin would have destroyed the gate, and heck, maybe the Order would have escaped on the Mechane without Tarquin chasing them.

[DaggerPen]

Yes, I know that they were both members of opposing teams, but Malack attempted to explain that didn't mean they had to be enemies.

Belkar wasn't exactly about the "oh gee let's just pretend we never bumped into each other" scene either. Belkar was willing to fight, Malack was willing to fight, a one-on-one duel. Fair's fair. Didn't mean bringing the rest of the Order into it.

Malack openly wondered aloud about whether or not to kill Belkar and then decided to kill him. Belkar's a bloodthirsty little monster, but Malack was still the one to make it hostile.


I must disagree with you there, and point out that Malack agreed to join, and specifically asked to be the one to deal with Durkon. This prevented Tarquin from potentially killing him in the ambush. And later on, when they finally met, the last thing Malack wanted to do was fight Durkon.

I think it's clear that Malack joined up not only at the request of his friend, but to spare Durkon also. Not to betray him.

Malack may have wanted to spare Durkon, but he was all too happy to not only let Durkon's friends die, but to even attack them as long as he didn't have to attack Durkon. Durkon said that that was not acceptable - if Malack was going to keep helping Tarquin try to seize the Gate, then Durkon had to stop him, and there was no end but violence. Durkon was at worst just as staunch in his goals as Malack.

[Kish]

I think it is absolutely true to say:
1) That Malack valued his friendship with Durkon more, certainly more relative to how much he valued the lives of any of his friends, than Durkon did.
2) That Malack was more willing to compromise on moral issues than Durkon was. I mean, look what he did for friendship; he was willing to delay Nergal's Great Work for decades, until Tarquin died of natural causes.

Therefore, for someone who considers "I'll try to salvage my friendship anyway" an appropriate reaction to the discovery that one's friend has the desire and intention to turn the continent into a sapient-being cattle-farm, and correspondingly considers "The person I thought was my friend is not and now I will kill him" an inappropriate reaction to same, Durkon is in the wrong*. War is peace, freedom is slavery, and all that.

*And of course, Durkon didn't formally know that, though he likely suspected Xykon-level evil lying behind Malack's "soft-spoken" facade once he realized he had been wrong to defend Malack to his actual friends with assertions that Malack would NEVER NEVER NEVER help Nale against them. But that's speculative. A hypothetical person who considered the cattle-farm plans a friendship-ending-worthy offense could still say Durkon severed his friendship with Malack one or two strips too early. I just haven't seen any; since strip #875, everyone I've seen express an opinion on the morality of Durkon's actions has chosen either "he should have preserved his friendship with Malack" or "he was totally right to try to destroy Malack."

[Anajamois]

Well, Kish, the first two points I agree with.

The next point I disagree with, as Durkon did not know of this when making the decision that they were enemies. Durkon decided beforehand that they were no longer friends. I know you have addressed this but regardless it needed to be emphasised.

Now, I do not believe the soft-spoken demeanour was a facade, but his natural state. Of course, even the calmest of us get angry sometimes. When faced with the killer of your kin is a reasonable time to get mad, I think.

I am of the opinion he should have preserved his friendship with Malack. But it appears the discussion has now turned to a matter of opinion. And no good can come of trying to prove the superiority of one opinion over another, so I will abstain from that.

P.S. DaggerPen, whoever's decision it was, it's quite apparent that it would have led to violence regardless. I can't say I would have done differently. Plus, Malack was willing to spare once he thought Durkon and Belkar were friends.

[dancrilis]

I am not sure that the bonds of friendship between Durkon and Malack were ever broken.

They were forced into a conflict by their allegiances, but that is no reason to consider them not friends.

Durkon at the end felt that he had betrayed Malack 'Dinnae owe me anythin' anymore", however assuming that Malack was actually honest with him about the friendship he asked him for a favour.

Malack granted that favour out of friendship.

This is the equivalent to two friends finding themselves on opposite sides of a conflict and right before one kills the other the first asks for a request - such as 'please mind my cat'.
And that the victor does take the cat in and care for it for years.

You can oppose someone to the point of killing them - without considering it a breach of friendship, and neither Durkon or Malack seemed to consider the friendship to be void based on their actions.

[SlashDash]

Honestly can't say that I feel much sadness for any of those. Surprise? Sure.
Threlka made me feel sad, mostly because of her death seen and Elan's tribute but she wasn't much of a villain.


But if I'd hate to make a pick? I'd probably go for the black dragon mother.
She was evil, she didn't just want to kill V, she wanted to torture her children.
But in the end, not only did she never had the chance to avenge her son, who did nothing wrong, she also saw her own part in a massive genocide of her race... Talk about tragedy.

[Anajamois]

I am not sure that the bonds of friendship between Durkon and Malack were ever broken.

They were forced into a conflict by their allegiances, but that is no reason to consider them not friends.(That's not what this was about)

Durkon at the end felt that he had betrayed Malack 'Dinnae owe me anythin' anymore", however assuming that Malack was actually honest with him about the friendship he asked him for a favour.

Malack granted that favour out of friendship.

This is the equivalent to two friends finding themselves on opposite sides of a conflict and right before one kills the other the first asks for a request - such as 'please mind my cat'.
And that the victor does take the cat in and care for it for years.

You can oppose someone to the point of killing them - without considering it a breach of friendship, and neither Durkon or Malack seemed to consider the friendship to be void based on their actions.

I completely agree with everything not in red.

But I think Durkon had made it abundantly clear that they were no longer friends by denouncing him to his face.


"An I think I be no brother o' yers."

This quote also supports it.

[BlackDragonKing]

I think it is absolutely true to say:
1) That Malack valued his friendship with Durkon more, certainly more relative to how much he valued the lives of any of his friends, than Durkon did.
2) That Malack was more willing to compromise on moral issues than Durkon was. I mean, look what he did for friendship; he was willing to delay Nergal's Great Work for decades, until Tarquin died of natural causes.

Therefore, for someone who considers "I'll try to salvage my friendship anyway" an appropriate reaction to the discovery that one's friend has the desire and intention to turn the continent into a sapient-being cattle-farm, and correspondingly considers "The person I thought was my friend is not and now I will kill him" an inappropriate reaction to same, Durkon is in the wrong*. War is peace, freedom is slavery, and all that.

*And of course, Durkon didn't formally know that, though he likely suspected Xykon-level evil lying behind Malack's "soft-spoken" facade once he realized he had been wrong to defend Malack to his actual friends with assertions that Malack would NEVER NEVER NEVER help Nale against them. But that's speculative. A hypothetical person who considered the cattle-farm plans a friendship-ending-worthy offense could still say Durkon severed his friendship with Malack one or two strips too early. I just haven't seen any; since strip #875, everyone I've seen express an opinion on the morality of Durkon's actions has chosen either "he should have preserved his friendship with Malack" or "he was totally right to try to destroy Malack."

Actually, when you think about it, even if it wasn't blatantly obvious nobody in the series is quite as in love with senseless destruction for its own sake as Xykon, Malack is Redcloak-level evil anyway, just from a zen mindset instead of a desperate, denial-ridden one.

Redcloak wants goblin supremacy, hopefully at the cost of all non-goblinoid sentient life, especially humans. He doesn't think goblins and non-goblinoids can or should coexist because of his own experience with Paladins, and so Redcloak does Evil things in the delusion what he's doing is right as far as goblins are concerned.

OotS Vampires are inherently evil, if Durkula's drastic personality shift post-death is any indication. If Durkon didn't have any choice to not be Lawful Evil when he became a "free" vampire, there's no reason any other Vampire had an option either; undead, including sentient undead have traditionally been exempt from the comic's usual aversion to "Always Evil"; there are no good undead. There are good ghosts, but that's where the line is drawn.

If that's the case, being a vampire means your options are either to be evil or cease to exist. I don't know if D&D vampires are allowed to get around the need for blood in less vile ways than the usual methodology, but let's just say that Vamp/Non-Vamp coexistence in all likelihood makes diplomacy with the goblinoids look like a walk in the park. At least they have pulses and aren't compelled to try and drain the blood of the living to survive.

For Malack, in that case, what he's doing isn't really any different than what Redcloak's after; he's establishing a nation for his own kind without any real concern about what that means for the other races. From a VAMPIRE'S perspective, that's a great plan, but we the readers are not that keen on it, being from Team People. When you think about it, it's actually a little better than Redcloak's situation, since Redcloak is deliberately ignoring alternatives thanks to his sunk-cost fallacy while Malack's simply operating on the basis that alternatives to how he plans to run a vampire state don't exist.

It's a minor semantic point, but I do feel that Malack should not be compared to Xykon when a much more obvious parallel exists villain-wise. :smallbiggrin:

[ScrapperTBP]

Miko - I didn't feel bad about her death I felt she deserved it but I did pity her character as a whole. She led a very sheltered life and was not used to everything she was exposed. Even one was very hard on her and she seemed to truly believe in what she was doing. She wasn't doing the right thing obviously and I feel sorry for her in the sense that I wish she had realised and was not so stubborn.

Thog - I found Thog funny but like Roy I recognised his evilness and it was difficult to detract from that. His death was only sad in the sense that he had just come out of rage and had no idea what was going on. He did deserve to die (assuming he is dead ;) )

Z - I was sad about his death. I was warming to him and found him cute frankly. But his death is one that signifies V outgrowing Z. I will miss Z but I think it was the right time.

Malack - Malack's death was unexpected I am sad he died in the way he did. He was a good character in that he was honourable and so you could understand a lot of his decisions. He did weigh his family (dead) to highly though I think and it was his downfall.

Nale - Nale was a cold-hearted murderer who was as weak as he was naive. There was a reason he lost every battle he faced. Without Sabine we would have achieved less than the nothing he actually did. However it would have been nice to see him learn from that rather than simply die. I don't feel bad about his death though. With Thog and Z dead, there was nothing left for him to live for really. A whole new team wouldn't have made sense at all. As Tarquin said, the Order had outgrown them.

[Paseo H]

Thog - I found Thog funny but like Roy I recognised his evilness and it was difficult to detract from that. His death was only sad in the sense that he had just come out of rage and had no idea what was going on. He did deserve to die (assuming he is dead ;) )

Well said. I completely agr-


Z - I was sad about his death. I was warming to him and found him cute frankly. But his death is one that signifies V outgrowing Z. I will miss Z but I think it was the right time.

...huh.


Malack - Malack's death was unexpected I am sad he died in the way he did. He was a good character in that he was honourable and so you could understand a lot of his decisions. He did weigh his family (dead) to highly though I think and it was his downfall.

Okay...I'm getting mixed signals here. :smallconfused: