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Ziegander
2013-11-14, 12:59 PM
Okay, I know I want it to have a d10 HD, all good saves, and 6 skill points per level. I know I want it to have Bonus Feats, if not at the same rate as the SRD Fighter than at the very least at every even or odd level (to be determined), and I know I want those Bonus Feats to be retrainable once per day (perhaps with an "adaptive style" feat to allow them to be retrained at any time after 5 minutes or so).

With just these changes to the class, keeping in mind daily retraining of feats, would that bump the Fighter up a Tier by itself?

Beyond that, I want to keep the class simple, but I'd like to give it at least some versatility out of combat. I want to fill in those dead odd or even levels with useful class features.

One feature I thought of was a sort of "Fighter's Lore" which would be his version of Bardic Knowledge and pertain to famous warriors, weapons, and armors as well as substitute for certain skill checks (such as to identify the strengths/weaknesses of monsters). Of course, given the nature of the feature this would need to come online at 1st level I'd say.

I also thought some sort of features to allow the Fighter to buff his allies in combat would be nice and make some sense, as long as they didn't take away from his own actions. He is a man of action, after all, he doesn't sit on the sidelines directing people where to hit the enemy, he goes and hits the enemy and says, "there! that's where you hit 'em!" Maybe something sort of like an Archivist's Dark Knowledge, but a little different and more active?

One of the problems is in keeping it simple, but also in filling in the dead levels with interesting features. So, any suggestions?

Logic
2013-11-14, 01:16 PM
Okay, I know I want it to have a d10 HD, all good saves, and 6 skill points per level. I know I want it to have Bonus Feats, if not at the same rate as the SRD Fighter than at the very least at every even or odd level (to be determined), and I know I want those Bonus Feats to be retrainable once per day (perhaps with an "adaptive style" feat to allow them to be retrained at any time after 5 minutes or so).

With just these changes to the class, keeping in mind daily retraining of feats, would that bump the Fighter up a Tier by itself?

Beyond that, I want to keep the class simple, but I'd like to give it at least some versatility out of combat. I want to fill in those dead odd or even levels with useful class features.

One feature I thought of was a sort of "Fighter's Lore" which would be his version of Bardic Knowledge and pertain to famous warriors, weapons, and armors as well as substitute for certain skill checks (such as to identify the strengths/weaknesses of monsters). Of course, given the nature of the feature this would need to come online at 1st level I'd say.

I also thought some sort of features to allow the Fighter to buff his allies in combat would be nice and make some sense, as long as they didn't take away from his own actions. He is a man of action, after all, he doesn't sit on the sidelines directing people where to hit the enemy, he goes and hits the enemy and says, "there! that's where you hit 'em!" Maybe something sort of like an Archivist's Dark Knowledge, but a little different and more active?

One of the problems is in keeping it simple, but also in filling in the dead levels with interesting features. So, any suggestions?

One suggestion: If the fighter successfully hits an opponent, all allies gain a circumstance bonus to hit and/or affect the same target based on fighter level. For example a 6th level fighter hits the Orc Chieftain, and he can choose to lower his AC, or one of his saves by 1 for a round. A 12th level fighter might be able to double that penalty or have two effects on a successful hit.

Just a suggestion. More ideas like that?

Realms of Chaos
2013-11-14, 01:23 PM
Working on a colossal skill-based project, one the recent things that I've noted is that just about everything that isn't innately magical or combat-focused can probably be traced back to a skill.

If you want fighter lore, it could be traced back to knowledge.
If you want to shake off effects, it could be traced to concentrate.
If you want superior senses, spot or listen work
If you want to be a legendary smith, use craft.

The list goes on. What I would recommend would be something like this:
1. Let fighters select a limited number of class skills for themselves as the generalist classes from UA.
2. Create three steps of progression for each skill as they would apply to possible jobs of a fighter (Example: listen may help you as a scout, granting you keen senses with one application, blindsense with the second, and blindsight with the third).
3. Let the fighter choose a skill to gain benefits with at each odd level.
4. Let fighters only gain access to the second step at 7th level and 3rd step at 13th level.

For the record, though, I still don't get why you call this class the fighter. You are trying to make a usable tier 4-3 class without any use of any magic or "magic" system and I've never seen the evidence that more than one of those could exist within the design space 3.5 gives us.

There is, at most, going to be one usable "mundane" class that really feels and plays like a "mundane" so why call it the "fighter" instead of something like Paragon or the Everyman or something like that?

Grod_The_Giant
2013-11-14, 01:42 PM
If you want simple, I'd drop feat retraining altogether. While useful, it adds up to a huge amount of bookkeeping.

A simple way to get a buff-your-allies fighter might be to gestalt him with the Marshal, or a slightly-upgraded version thereof. Auras provide a simple boost to your allies, the Charisma helps you be a party face, and Grant Move action (if souped up a bit) adds some tactical ability.

Ziegander
2013-11-14, 03:00 PM
One suggestion: If the fighter successfully hits an opponent, all allies gain a circumstance bonus to hit and/or affect the same target based on fighter level. For example a 6th level fighter hits the Orc Chieftain, and he can choose to lower his AC, or one of his saves by 1 for a round. A 12th level fighter might be able to double that penalty or have two effects on a successful hit.

Just a suggestion. More ideas like that?

Yeah, it's not the worst suggestion. I might actually work on something easy inspired by this and the Hexblade's Dark Companion ACF.


If you want fighter lore, it could be traced back to knowledge.
If you want to shake off effects, it could be traced to concentrate.
If you want superior senses, spot or listen work
If you want to be a legendary smith, use craft.

Well, sure, but that's not a Fighter class, that's really an Expert or Polymath or Factotum.


For the record, though, I still don't get why you call this class the fighter. You are trying to make a usable tier 4-3 class without any use of any magic or "magic" system and I've never seen the evidence that more than one of those could exist within the design space 3.5 gives us.

It's very easy to make a Tier 4 class without magic or any magic system. Tier 3 might be a little more difficult, especially if I'm not smashing all the non-magic guys into a single class, but it's also certainly doable with homebrew.


If you want simple, I'd drop feat retraining altogether. While useful, it adds up to a huge amount of bookkeeping.

As huge as Wizard's spells known and spells prepared? I highly doubt it. And anyway, my goal would be simple mechanically more so than simple in play. In either case, switching out your feats is still simple to play, mechanically versatile, and more newb-friendly than locked in feat choice.


A simple way to get a buff-your-allies fighter might be to gestalt him with the Marshal, or a slightly-upgraded version thereof. Auras provide a simple boost to your allies, the Charisma helps you be a party face, and Grant Move action (if souped up a bit) adds some tactical ability.

Doesn't seem like the right call for a Fighter fix.

Ninjadeadbeard
2013-11-14, 03:15 PM
Off the top of my head (cribbing off Trailblazer 3.5):


Re-write all the feats so they do more with less
Sneak Attack damage for Attacks of Opportunity
Slightly more limited form of the Marshall's Auras (not trailblazer, just a good idea)
Add stuff to chosen weapon at certain levels

Up damage die
increase critical threat range
increase critical multiplier
add Reach, Thrown or +4 Combat Maneuver Bonus


Etc, etc, and so forth.

Kane0
2013-11-14, 04:21 PM
Okay, I know I want it to have a d10 HD, all good saves, and 6 skill points per level. I know I want it to have Bonus Feats, if not at the same rate as the SRD Fighter than at the very least at every even or odd level (to be determined), and I know I want those Bonus Feats to be retrainable once per day (perhaps with an "adaptive style" feat to allow them to be retrained at any time after 5 minutes or so).

With just these changes to the class, keeping in mind daily retraining of feats, would that bump the Fighter up a Tier by itself?

Beyond that, I want to keep the class simple, but I'd like to give it at least some versatility out of combat. I want to fill in those dead odd or even levels with useful class features.


So you need a simple, universally applicable mechanic. I use a dice pool that can be used to add to any d20 or damage roll in my fix, though you've already seen that.
Rerolls would add to the time a turn takes but otherwise might be good.
Flat bonuses would be very hit and miss, either functional and boring or broken and unbalancing. This also applies to the chassis.
New kinds of rolls take away from simplicity but depending on what is implemented could be what you're looking for.

Other than that i'd say whatever you pick, you need to determine if your mechanic or your bonus feats are the primary feature of the fighter. If you do both, they will likely compete rather than one being icing on the cake of the other.
If your mechanic takes the spotlight, i'd say make fewer interchangeable bonus feats or just fewer bonus feats in general. If feats are taking the forefront then the mechanic has to be gravy, not an entire subsystem.



I also thought some sort of features to allow the Fighter to buff his allies in combat would be nice and make some sense, as long as they didn't take away from his own actions. He is a man of action, after all, he doesn't sit on the sidelines directing people where to hit the enemy, he goes and hits the enemy and says, "there! that's where you hit 'em!" Maybe something sort of like an Archivist's Dark Knowledge, but a little different and more active?

Some kind of mark on an enemy? 4e uses this approach, and it works pretty well. It functions similar to the Hexblade's Dark Companion in that you designate a target and they get minor penalties to a couple things. You could increase the number of targets or penalties as you level too.
Then maybe make a feat to allow additional uses of marking like getting an AoO if they attack someone else while within your reach or whatnot.

Ziegander
2013-11-14, 04:27 PM
Other than that i'd say whatever you pick, you need to determine if your mechanic or your bonus feats are the primary feature of the fighter. If you do both, they will likely compete rather than one being icing on the cake of the other.
If your mechanic takes the spotlight, i'd say make fewer interchangeable bonus feats or just fewer bonus feats in general. If feats are taking the forefront then the mechanic has to be gravy, not an entire subsystem.

Oh, I absolutely agree. The bonus feats will be this Fighter's bread and butter. They give him the combat power he needs with new versatility. Whatever I add will certainly not be a new subsystem, that would defeat the purpose of simplicity.


Some kind of mark on an enemy? 4e uses this approach, and it works pretty well. It functions similar to the Hexblade's Dark Companion in that you designate a target and they get minor penalties to a couple things. You could increase the number of targets or penalties as you level too.
Then maybe make a feat to allow additional uses of marking like getting an AoO if they attack someone else while within your reach or whatnot.

I like it, but it might be getting a little complicated. I'll look into it.

Grod_The_Giant
2013-11-14, 05:36 PM
As huge as Wizard's spells known and spells prepared? I highly doubt it. And anyway, my goal would be simple mechanically more so than simple in play. In either case, switching out your feats is still simple to play, mechanically versatile, and more newb-friendly than locked in feat choice.
In a lot of ways it's worse. Every morning, you have to dig through every book in the game, looking for a half-dozen feats that do what you want, almost all of which have prerequisites. And then you add the feat tax that lets you do that in five minutes?

You want a simple fix, and that's not a bad thing. But changing large parts of your character sheet on a regular basis will not help that.

blackmage
2013-11-15, 12:05 PM
-snip-

Beyond that, I want to keep the class simple, but I'd like to give it at least some versatility out of combat. I want to fill in those dead odd or even levels with useful class features.

-snip-

I also thought some sort of features to allow the Fighter to buff his allies in combat would be nice and make some sense, as long as they didn't take away from his own actions. He is a man of action, after all, he doesn't sit on the sidelines directing people where to hit the enemy, he goes and hits the enemy and says, "there! that's where you hit 'em!" Maybe something sort of like an Archivist's Dark Knowledge, but a little different and more active?

One of the problems is in keeping it simple, but also in filling in the dead levels with interesting features. So, any suggestions?

So, like most everyone I have a half-done 'Fighter Fix'. And I had exactly the same issue, he needed to contribute outside of combat, and he needed to be useful to his allies in combat. I found an existing mechanic that covers both in Aid Another. My fighter got a line of abilities boosting Aid Another's bonus and eventually bringing it to a swift action in combat. These abilities never let you boost yourself, forcing it to be used on allies. And the inherent restrictions to Aid Another help prevent abuses. In combat you, your ally, and the enemy have to be in the right position or it won't work, but it is common enough. For skill checks you have to be capable of using that skill yourself, so spending a couple of ranks in many different skills is likely. The 'Take 10' ability is just to reduce excessive dice rolling. What do you think?

Efficient Assistant:
At 4th level, when a dreadnought uses the Aid Another action to assist one of his allies, the ally receives a +3 bonus instead of +2. At 8th level, and every 4 levels thereafter, this bonus increases by an additional +1.

In addition, you can attempt the Aid Another action as a move action.

Reliable Assistant:
When attempting the Aid Another action, you always may Take 10, even if stress and distractions would normally prevent you from doing so. To succeed your total result still must be 10 or higher, and all the usual restrictions on Aid Another checks apply.

Prompt Assistant:
You can attempt the Aid Another action as a swift action.

Persistent Assistant:
When attempting the Aid Another action to grant an ally a bonus to their attack roll or AC against an opponent, your ally gains the bonus until the beginning of your next turn instead of only the next attack.

urkthegurk
2013-11-15, 02:31 PM
my favourite idea I've seen around the boards is to give them 'tactics' -feats you can assign on the fly, and which take a set amount of time to retrain out, sort of like spell slots but for feats. But then I thought, why not have them be able to go to allies as well? These allies would have to train with you for a set time before them, when you're preparing, but afterwards you can just assign them the feats they need, as long as they meet the prerequisites.

This, plus the 'Strike' dice pool for attack and damage, plus the skills, go a long way towards making the fighter playable. Tie them to Int somehow? Maybe make the fighter Str-Int focused, with the option of Dex-Int if they decide to go ranged.

Just to Browse
2013-11-15, 04:08 PM
You have enough feat fixes that a retrainable bonus feat every other level is probably fine for combat options.

So he needs to contribute out of combat. At each off-feat level give him some utility abilities that mimick spells of an appropriate level. Huge leaps (jump), tactical insight (omen of peril), catfalling (feather fall), and auto-taming mounts (mount) can all be level 1 abilities with no problem.

The stronger you want the fighter, the higher the spell level you mimic. Go bard utility list spells for tier 3, wiz/sorc spells for tier 2, and for tier 1 you just let them rearrange their choices.

Amechra
2013-11-15, 06:53 PM
One thing I've been looking at recently for the fix that I've been working on-and-off on is having at least one feature that upgrades save DCs from feats, poisons, and magic weapons.

So, in other words, if you attack someone with a poisoned weapon, they have to make a save against 10 + 1/2 Fighter Level + Con mod.

A small thing that doesn't add to out-of-combat, but it keeps some things relevant for far longer.

Haldir
2013-11-16, 01:47 AM
I have toyed around with a fighter system that uses alchemy and item crafting to supplement their weaknesses in spellcasting with sweet-ass armament. A free experience pool for crafting, huge bonuses to certain checks, decreased crafting times, eligibility or workarounds on the crafting feats. All of these seem like good ways to buff the mundanes, work within the already existing ruleset, and maintain the idea that the fighter is a guy who wields a weapon instead of a spell.

nonsi
2013-11-16, 10:17 AM
I know I want it to have a d10 HD, all good saves, and 6 skill points per level.

May I suggest the following skill list:
Balance, Climb, Craft, Diplomacy, Handle Animals, Heal, Hide, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge (dungeoneering / geography / history / local / nobility and royalty), Listen, Move Silently, Profession, Ride, Sense Motive, Spot, Survival and Swim and Tumble.
The above list allows for a wide variety of melee archetypes without circumventing mundanaity via UMD, or stepping on the Rogue's toes via Disable Device, Pick Pocket, Sleight of Hand and Use Rope.





I know I want it to have Bonus Feats, if not at the same rate as the SRD Fighter than at the very least at every even or odd level (to be determined)

Same rate seems Ok to me.
A bonus feat at 1st is a must, and to avoid making the feats themselves an issue, keep them coming at the even levels.





and I know I want those Bonus Feats to be retrainable once per day (perhaps with an "adaptive style" feat to allow them to be retrained at any time after 5 minutes or so).

As was noted: bookkeeping.
Instead, make some of them automatically BAB or level dependant, such as PA (PF-version), Combat Expertise, Weapon Finesse, Spring Attack etc.
Improve some of them, such as Dodge & Mobility.
Also consider basing Feint off of BAB rather than Bluff check.





Beyond that, I want to keep the class simple, but I'd like to give it at least some versatility out of combat. I want to fill in those dead odd or even levels with useful class features.

As was noted: skills... and maybe also combat oriented skill tricks.





One feature I thought of was a sort of "Fighter's Lore" which would be his version of Bardic Knowledge and pertain to famous warriors, weapons, and armors as well as substitute for certain skill checks (such as to identify the strengths/weaknesses of monsters). Of course, given the nature of the feature this would need to come online at 1st level I'd say.

Not necessarily.
A novice would probably not have a keen eye for that. Such thing takes practice and experience to acquire.





I also thought some sort of features to allow the Fighter to buff his allies in combat would be nice and make some sense, as long as they didn't take away from his own actions.

Improved Aid Another.
Rapid Aid Another.
More options with Aid Another.





One of the problems is in keeping it simple, but also in filling in the dead levels with interesting features. So, any suggestions?

As you're so well aware, melees suffer from bad action economy and inferior mobility.
Full attck sequence as a standard action and moving up to your speed while distributing your attacks is a must.
To make attacking from a stand-still count, grant all iteratives maximized attack bonus.

Also, the Warblade's non-maneuver features are all solid for Fighter features. Just allow using Int/Wis/Dex instead of just Int.
Don't knock the possibility of merging them into one. This will make that feature count for a lot.
You could also base them off of level rather than ability score, reducing MADness and preventing cherry picking.
You could also make those bonuses apply situation-independent for a small list of weapons of choice (starting with a single weapon or weapon group at 1st level and gaining another every [X] levels thereafter). This will allow you to throw the Weapon Focus tree out the window, making room for more feats that grant options over feats that just enhance numbers. Combine this with the above proposal for making certain feats auto combat options and you're granting your Fighter a lot more mileage with his feats.

You might also give a second thought to number 4 on Ninjadeadbeard's list (post #6).