[PF] Arcane Trickster w/ Guns, need help optimizing.

[Thrair]

So I'm moving on the 5th of December back to where I used to live, and am going to be joining a game with a friend. I've wanted to play an Arcane Trickster based around firearm usage (when not casting spells) for a LONG time. How would you guys go about optimizing such a character?

Under the DM, guns are mostly limited to Catfolk, or members of an inquisition that's enforcing strict prohibition of firearm use/sale/manufacture by non-catfolk. Firearms are on emerging. Mostly early firearms, although a member of the other party (group was split into 2 smaller groups when it got too large) has a Revolver that took a metric assload of questing to get.

Character level is currently 10th, thought it might be higher by the time I get there. Stats were rolled, so my base stat rolls are: 15, 15, 14, 14, 13, 10. Equal to a 27-point buy, but also underspecialized. Ah well.




Any advice on optimizing for the character is much appreciated. Oh, and does anyone know of a list of all the Wizard spells that are used with Firearms? Named Bullet, True Strike, Reloading Hands, etc?

[Thrair]

Oh, and current build is my first draft. First build version. (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=703155)

Do note, this was my first draft of it. Already I've decided to make a couple changes.

-I'm dropping Dodge/Mobility/Deft Shootist Deed. I came to the conclusion that it was a poor use of 3 feats. I'm better off just not getting involved in melee. it was a relic from when the build was going to be putting the emphasis on close range. In hindsight, a bad idea.

-No baseline traits, but the DM is fine with Extra Traits to get them. I'm definitely getting Magical Knack to get back some of the caster level loss. Then it's a tossup between Reactionary/Save Bonus/Second Chance/Fluff Trait.

-I'm also considering swapping the Archetype back to baseline rogue. Accuracy is useless unless the DM rules it works with Firearms, while Deadly Range is supplanted by Sniper Goggles.


Any other suggestions?

[Psyren]

You didn't mention which archetypes you're using, so I'll make the obvious suggestion of the Spellslinger archetype. This will get you Gunsmithing and EWP Firearms for free, saving you a feat and the talent you'd have otherwise had to blow on Firearm Training, in exchange for a familiar you probably weren't going to use much anyway. It also lets you fire your spells through your guns.

[Thrair]

Spellslinger's a thought. A definitely flavourful. Worth considering, for sure. Although the cost is pretty steep (Lose the Arcane Crafter freebie feat, the familiar and it's associated bonuses, and gain FOUR opposed schools. A lot to gain, but also a lot to lose.)

Gunslinger/Rogue is probably better for strictly gun use. But the Trickster has excellent casting. A bit stunted compared to a pure wizard, but by level 10, it's already caught up to a 3/4 caster in progression, and will pull ahead from here on out.

As for using a SLA to qualify, I don't think you can do that. I wish, but I'm pretty sure it has to be actual spellcasting ability.

Also corrected a typo: Starts at CL10, not CL9.

*EDIT* Oh, and there's a lot of ways to get Sneak Attacks. Greater Invisibility, Blacklight, high initiative, sniping from long range, etc.

[Thrair]

Yes you can. (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9qow)

...


.....



Heh.
Hehehe.
Hahahaha! HAHAHAHAHA!
BWHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

That's a fairly new ruling I hadn't seen. I'll probably have to run it by the DM, but if he allows it....... Oooooooh...... The possibilities....


*EDIT* In all seriousness, if it's allowed, awesome. But I'd prefer to make the character not rely on a generous ruling. The DM, from my understanding, has no problems with optimizing. But since this will be the first game I play under him, I'd prefer not to leave the impression of being a munchkin.

So optimized, yes. But not to the degree that I'm using combinations of obscure rules to create the character.

[Ravens_cry]

I'd go Ninja rather than Rogue. They get some supernatural goodies that will help out a slinger of spells and lead.

[Ravens_cry]

No need to be an ass hat about it.
Who is being a buttocks milliner customer? :smallconfused:

[Thrair]

Who is being a buttocks milliner customer? :smallconfused:

I think he's addressing me, on account of my munchkin comment.


To which, I apologize. It was poor wording. I was not accusing you of being one. Again, I really appreciate the input and help.

My point was that, because I'm a new player for this DM, this will be my first impressions upon him. And I'd rather err on the side of caution, not being familiar with how willing he is to allow such min-maxing. Some DMs go by "if you can break it, it's my job to deal with it", while others go "Dude, wtf are you doing".


Again, really sorry for giving offense. I assure you it was unintentional on my part. Although it does highlight why I want to be careful. It's easy to leave a bad impression, and difficult to correct.

*EDIT* For even more clarification, it's not even necessarily that what you suggested is trying to combine obscure rulings, but that the very errata you linked me to has Paizo saying, bascially "we're tentatively allowing it to qualify for PrC as well, but if that breaks things, we'll ban it". So while it's officially accepted currently, it's a ruling that's on thin ice. DM might not like or allow it.

[Thrair]

Any suggestions as far as feats/equipment?

[Ravens_cry]

Any suggestions as far as feats/equipment?
The best guns you can get, for one. How chill is your DM about moving slots?
Because the terrible pun of an item, the Goz mask
(http://www.pathfindercommunity.net/magic-items/wondrous-items/goz-mask) is very useful if you want to get sneak attack on people in fog clouds.
It does take up your head slot, so you'll have to see about shifting your mental stat boosting item elsewhere.

[Khantin]

The best guns you can get, for one. How chill is your DM about moving slots?
Because the terrible pun of an item, the Goz mask
(http://www.pathfindercommunity.net/magic-items/wondrous-items/goz-mask) is very useful if you want to get sneak attack on people in fog clouds.
It does take up your head slot, so you'll have to see about shifting your mental stat boosting item elsewhere.

stat items go in the headband slot, goz mask takes the head slot. Fog cutting lenses take the eye slot.

[Ravens_cry]

stat items go in the headband slot, goz mask takes the head slot. Fog cutting lenses take the eye slot.
Well, that's dandy, because fogcutter's suck.

[Karoht]

FYI-I can't actually see your build so I'm making a few educated guesses. Work computer, blocked site.

Remember that you can poison your ammunition. At low level it is a costly expenditure, not something you want on every shot, so make sure you have a good way of tracking your non-standard ammo. It's the sort of thing that makes Craft: Alchemy very handy. Keep a good supply of Tanglefoot bags as well.

If you are going to run with a Goz Mask, and you plan on going with Ninja, Smoke Bombs are your friend. I'm not too keen on Poison Bombs and Blinding/Choking bombs, but they do have their place.
Also, if you are going with Goz Mask, the Eversmoking Bottle is your friend. Standard Action just like throwing the Smoke Bomb, but takes up a massive radius, and won't cost you ki points. Great way to get cover/concealment from your foes.
Bad news, it moves with you, unless you leave it on the ground or have someone else carry it. And chances are good that if you are going to use it, you want the rest of the party to have Goz Masks or some other way of seeing through smoke/fog as well.

Also, if you plan on taking Ninja levels, you may want to look up Bewildering Koan. Remarkably handy that.

[Stux]

Permanency Enlarge Person and wield siege engines. Cannons/Light Bombards.

Once you get access to Shrink Item you can duel wield Heavy Bombards if you like. The siege firearms as two-handed weapons rule states that a large or larger creature can use a siege firearm of the appropriate size as a two-handed weapon. Shrink Item reduces an item by 4 categories, so a Heavy Bombard is now Small. You have a -4 to hit, as it is two categories smaller than you, but that is irrelevant as a bombard uses a skill check to hit rather than an attack roll. I believe you can also wield it as a light weapon (as it is a two-handed weapon 2 categories smaller), so you can duel wield them. You are also going to want sniper goggles of course, so you can sneak attack with them. I've probably made some error that means this doesn't work though!

[Dragonus45]

Wait, did someone delete some comments or something because this conversation seems a bit disjointed.

[Psyren]

Wait, did someone delete some comments or something because this conversation seems a bit disjointed.

I'm guessing Spore deleted his posts or something

[HylianKnight]

Besides recommending Spell Slinger as well, I know the PrC Sleepless Detective (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/s-z/sleepless-detective#TOC-Canny-Sleuth-Ex-) is pretty great for Arcane Tricksters. sneak attack means you only lose out on 2 levels of spell casting (and no caster levels with Magical Knack) by doing 1 Rogue/4 Wizard/1 Detective/Arcane Trickster. Further, it gives you your INT bonus to Perception, Sense Motive, and Gather Information. Detect Magic at will (and as one aura stronger) is just gravy.

Regardless of those choices, a minor thing is that I think the Arcane Temper (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/magic-traits/arcane-temper) trait is superior to Reactionary. Instead of a +2 to Initiative you get +1 and +1 to Concentration checks. Given how hard it is to boost concentration in Pathfinder I find it to be very worth it.

[Ravens_cry]

You can only take one trait of each type (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits).
When selecting traits, you may not select more than one from the same list of traits (the four basic traits each count as a separate list for this purpose)
So if you go Arcane Temper, you can't take Magical Knack.

[Thrair]

Yah, will probably get a Goz Mask. Seems useful. And unlike the Fogcutter's, it doesn't add a perception penalty AND eat up the slot needed for Sniper Goggles.


As for Sleepless Detective, great suggestion. I'll grab that if I go the Spellslinger route. I'm just torn because Spellslinger's a lot more specialized into blasting, and loses on flexibility, as it has 4 Opposed AND no bonus spells/day. Still debating that one. I might need to check out the other PCs in the party to see what roles are filled before I commit to that. It would make me an excellent blaster. And being only 2 CL behind instead of 3 is AMAZING.

Siege guns are interesting, but I doubt the DM will allow that. That crosses into a bunch of obscure and lesser-used rules (I rarely see Siege weapons actually used in play), and I don't want to give an unfavourable impression by doing so. I mean: Dual-Wielding Siege Weapons..... Excellent for -full-optimization games, though.

I already put max-ranks into Alchemy, so I might use poisons.






So, again, I might not go the Spellslinger route because it's limited flexibility.... but if I do, I'm thinking the following build (assuming DM approves it):

Rogue 1 (Poisoner Archetype)
Wizard 4 (Spellslinger) (Opposed: Charm, Necromancy, - , -)
Sleepless Detective 1
Arcane Trickster 4


It'll be quite powerful. And because it has Detect Magic at will as a spell-like, I could potentially use Divination as one of the remaining barred schools. I'm just really uneasy about the 4 Opposed Schools thing. It's a big drawback.

[Psyren]

Opposed spells don't really matter as much in PF. You can still learn/cast them, it just takes two slots instead of one. You can even use and craft items for those spells (like wands and scrolls), you simply take a penalty for the latter.

[Thrair]

Yah. Just one question on the Spellslinger: Can I write Mage Hand into my spellbook as a 1st level spell? Spellslinger specifically loses Cantrips, aside from Read Magic and Detect Magic, which are explicitly placed in the book at 1st level spells.

Kinda leaves it vague as to whether you can do that ONLY with those two spells, or if you can choose to do so of your own accord.


I'm inclined to think I can, as you can prepare a spell into a higher slot if you like. I'm just not certain if it applies to LEARNING them.

[Grave613]

My quick two cents if you want vesitility and a few more tricks.
1) Vivisectionist Alchemist.
4) Arcane Builder Wizard
1) Sleepless Detective
4) Arcane Trickster


Recommeded Race: Half-Elf, Elf, Human

You end up with three crafting feats, Some Utility slots, a good skill range, no opposed school, handy SLAs, and access to two spell lists.

I have run a build like this. not uber optimized but contributed well as a bard-type "everyman".

[Thrair]

Well, if you look at the rough draft sheet, you'll see I did take Arcane Crafter. Toppling Spell makes for an excellent Magic Missile utility spell. Especially against targets with crappy CMD (read: Squishies).

I'm thinking I'll either go with the Blaster-focused Spellslinger build people have suggested, or a more refined version of the jack-of-all trades I was going for, incorporating a lot of the suggestions.

Depends on what the rest of the group looks like, and whether it'd be better to have more utility or more blaster pew-pew. And general optimization levels. If nobody else is optimized, I can easily tune it down and add some fun fluff.

[Spore]

I'm inclined to think I can, as you can prepare a spell into a higher slot if you like. I'm just not certain if it applies to LEARNING them.

I am not sure either but the necklace of mage hand could likely be your choice of bound item then. It's cheap, so you don't require to actually prepare 1st level slots for a cantrip. You could also take extra cantrips (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ultimateMagic/ultimateMagicFeats.html#_extra-cantrips-or-orisons) but I am not really a fan of the feat.

But maybe I am stretching it again and it seems too much of an munchkin to you whwn taking prereqs from items. :smallamused:

[Thrair]

*wince* Yah.... I'm really sorry about the wording on that post.

As for Extra Cantrips, I don't think a Spellslinger qualifies for it. They specifically do not get Cantrips, and get Detect/Read Magic as 1st-level spells. As for the feat itself.... meh... I really don't see much use for it, either. Maybe on an spontaneous caster... but even then...

As for using items to qualify... I wonder about that. I mean, what about feats with Dex requirements. Do you qualify for them if you only meet the requisite Dex through items? What if it's not even an Enhancement bonus, but something like a mantle of immortality to eliminate a penalty.

Blargh.... cursed vague rule-sets.

*EDIT*
And Spellslingers bound item HAS to be their gun/s. :(

[Spore]

*EDIT*
And Spellslingers bound item HAS to be their gun/s. :(

You don't get to do anything when you haven't got your guns around. You awkwardly can try to stab people in melee missing out on 75% of your class...

[Thrair]

You don't get to do anything when you haven't got your guns around. You awkwardly can try to stab people in melee missing out on 75% of your class...

Oh come on, less than 1/2 BAB is totally a melee class! My 1d6-1 damage is totally game-breaking.

Casting's for sissy-wizards! Manly wizards melee with Tankards of Moose Urine, improvised weapon penalties be damned!

On a more serious note, what I meant is that Spellslinger's Arcane Gun features replaces the Arcane Bond feature. So you don't even have the option of getting a normal Arcane Bond from it.

Although, I idly wonder if that means you can get an Arcane Bond as well, from an Arcane Eldritch Heritage? Maybe. Would have to look that up. Not really relevant here, but I'm curious now.

[Spore]

Yes, you would. You have to spend another two of your feat starved build on Skill Focus and Eldritch Heritage tho. This isn't worth it for 1 additional spell/day.

What you really need is Abundant Ammunition because bullets are fricking expensive!

BEHOLD the Ninja/Spell Slinger/AT (Ninja suits you because of your flexible attributes):

Str 10 Dex 15 (+1) Con 14 Int 15 (+1) Wis 13 Cha 14

Human Int +2, Int +2 on 4 and 8

Traits:
Magical Knack (+2 to CL up to max. HD)
Reactionary (+2 Init)

(Hu) Feat: Point Blank Shot (for Precise Shot)
(1) Ninja 1: Poison Use, Sneak 1d6 Feat:Precise Shot
Setting you up for Precise Shot
(2)Ninja 2: Ki Pool, Ninja Trick: Vanish Trick
Vanish Trick is the poor man's invisibility
(3) Spell Slinger 1: Arcane Gun (Pistol) Gunsmith, Mage Bullets School of the Gun (forbidden: Enchantment, Necromancy, Abjuration, Divination) Feat: Scribe Scroll
Spells: Grease, Vanish bought: Burning Hands, Abundant Ammunition
Divination hurts because True Strike but remember you do touch attacks with guns, Scribe Scroll because flexibility and too few spell slots/day
(4) Spell Slinger 2: Spells: Magic Weapon, Reduce Person
pretty basic level, Magic Weapon isn't NEEDED but good to pick up
(5) Spell Slinger 3: Spells: Invisibility, Mirror Image bought: Alter Self, Pyrotechnics (arguably the gun can provide the needed fire), Scorching Ray (NOW WE'RE TALKING!) Feat: Rapid Shot
Be cautious with Rapid Shot you "only" need to hit touch but your BAB + Dex likely is about to waste a spell regardless, if you use a spell, don't use it, if not, it might .... BE WORTH A SHOT HAHAHA!
(6) Ninja 3: No Trace +1, Sneak 2d6
Arguably you could dip into Rogue/Vivisectionist to grab mutagens/trap finding
(7) Arcane Trickster: Ranged Ledgermain Feat: Craft Magic Arms and Armor
You likely want to customize your gun, up spellcraft for that!
(8) Arcane Trickster 2: Sneak 4d6, Spells bought: Summon Monster III,
Great buff level, not so big on blasts usable on rays tho, I start regretting putting Necromancy on the forbidden list
(9) Arcane Trickster 3: Impromptu Sneak 1/day Spells bought: Keen Edge (works on piercing ammo), Slow Feat: Reach Spell
If you take Reach Spell you can tuck all Melee touch spells on to your weapon for +1 spell level
(10) Arcane Trickster 4: Sneak 5d6 Spells bought: Greater Invis (aww yiss!), Dimension Door
pretty bland for your highest level, Greater Invis blasts away any competition imho

My "guide" is pretty basic and not very keen or witty but it would suffice for first time playing. Keep in mind that nothing is set in stone and you could ask your DM if you could switch around some feats or spells you didn't need after the first session. Constructing a character on 10 is something different than playing it. Glaring weaknesses get discovered when played. Also I didn't use any spells outside of the CRB. Maybe have a look at them.

[grarrrg]

Oh come on, less than 1/2 BAB is totally a melee class! My 1d6-1 damage is totally game-breaking.

Casting's for sissy-wizards! Manly wizards melee with Tankards of Moose Urine, improvised weapon penalties be damned!

http://1-media-cdn.foolz.us/ffuuka/board/tg/image/1356/29/1356295679740.png

[Thrair]

Ok, I'm currently bouncing back and forth between a jack-of-all trades (emphasis on flexibility/skill-monkey) and the Spellslinger/Sleepless Detective style build (emphasis on blasting with sneak attacks).

Assuming I do go the Spellslinger route, what would you recommend for Opposed Schools?

[Stux]

Assuming I do go the Spellslinger route, what would you recommend for Opposed Schools?

Obviously you want Evocation. Not normally essential for a wizard, but this build it is your bread and butter.

As usual, Illusion and Enchantment are the first on the chopping block. Cool effects, but too situational. If you aren't building around them then you can afford to lose them.

Also as usual Conjuration and Transmutation are just too useful to drop.

That leaves Necromancy and Divination to cut. I happen to feel in PF that dropping Divination isn't that big a deal. Remember you can cast opposed school spells using two slots, so if you really need to spy on someone then you can. Most of these spells have long casting times anyway. Necromancy has some nice stuff, but personally nothing I can't do without.

[Ravens_cry]

You are an arcane trickster, illusion is also your bread and butter. You basically NEED greater invisibility as soon as you can snag it. Since you lose out cantraps, I think Divination isn't a bad one to lose. Losing Necromancy loses Vampiric Touch, which is especially nice to tack sneak attack onto, as that ups the 'healing' you get. It also loses spectral hand, which is a pretty good way to pump some of those damaging touch spells through that you otherwise wouldn't want to get up and personal about, like Vampiric Touch.

[Stux]

You are an arcane trickster, illusion is also your bread and butter.

True enough... you only get to keep 3 schools though. It is tough, whichever schools you pick you will lose something neat.

[Ravens_cry]

True enough... you only get to keep 3 schools though. It is tough, whichever schools you pick you will lose something neat.
I'd sooner lose the spellslinger. Most spells you can use the spellslinger ability with don't even have saves, so being able to get your gun's enhancment as a bonus to save DC's is pretty situational. You can still be a slinger of spell and lead without it.

[Thrair]

Yah. I'm torn about Spellslinger.

I'm wondering if it's better to just go Rogue 1/Wizard 4/Sleepless Detective1/AT 4. With the Wizard being an Arcane Crafter. Both have excellent pros and cons.

Compared to the Spellslinger:

Gain:
-Familiar and it's bonuses, including +4 Initiative (Greensting) and Alertness.
-No Opposed Schools
-Scribe Scroll
-Cantrips
-Freebie Metamagic/Item Creation feat.

Lose:
-Mage Bullets, which adds a lot of versatility to firearms.
-Free Gunsmithing feat.
-Free Weapon Proficiency (Firearms)
-Gun Enhancement bonus to attack roll/DC of line/ray/cone spells.
-x3 Crit mod on line/ray/cone spells.



And, then, of course, there's the classical Rogue 3/Wizard 3 build to consider, which has the benefits of less feat intensity at the large cost of half a caster level compared to the Sleepless Detective build.


Blegh.

[TiaC]

You could reduce the feat cost by going Rogue 1/Vivisectionist 1/Wizard 3/AT 5. I'd take the Mindchemist archetype too. Abundant Ammunition is very nice with Named Bullet as it makes every bullet a Named bullet.

[Thrair]

Abundant Ammunition and Named Bullet stack like that? Gonna have to check that out.

*EDIT* Huh.... that awkward moment when your realize a player in your campaign responds to your thread.

Side note, the Mage-Assassin is already statted out, and this is not his build. So don't get your hopes up. He's using a build that's be impractical to use for a PC, but is fine on an NPC.

I just want to play the type of character now, as while making him, I got the urge to play such a character.

[Ravens_cry]

You could reduce the feat cost by going Rogue 1/Vivisectionist 1/Wizard 3/AT 5. I'd take the Mindchemist archetype too. Abundant Ammunition is very nice with Named Bullet as it makes every bullet a Named bullet.
Unless there has being errata. Vivisectionist stacks with sneak attack (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/alchemist/archetypes/paizo---alchemist-archetypes/vivisectionist)classes for sneak attack, so a Vivisectionist 1/Rogue2 will have 2d6 sneak attack, but it won't double up the Way the Sleepless Detective, Assassin, or Master Spy 1/Rogue 1 will.

[Spore]

If you go normal Wizard PLEASE go for a specialized one. You NEED the additional spells/day.

[TiaC]

Abundant Ammunition and Named Bullet stack like that? Gonna have to check that out.

*EDIT* Huh.... that awkward moment when your realize a player in your campaign responds to your thread.

I did mouse over the thread first to check if you were being a player or a DM.


Unless there has being errata. Vivisectionist stacks with sneak attack (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/alchemist/archetypes/paizo---alchemist-archetypes/vivisectionist)classes for sneak attack, so a Vivisectionist 1/Rogue2 will have 2d6 sneak attack, but it won't double up the Way the Sleepless Detective, Assassin, or Master Spy 1/Rogue 1 will.

That is annoying. It still probably makes for a better dip than rogue though. Of the classes that give sneak attack, Assassin or Deep Sea Pirate seem to be the easiest to qualify for.

[Thrair]

Alas, Assassin requires an Evil alignment, and this PC will be NG.

[TiaC]

Alas, Assassin requires an Evil alignment, and this PC will be NG.

Then I recommend the Deep Sea Pirate as it has no feat requirements.

[Ravens_cry]

That is annoying. It still probably makes for a better dip than rogue though. Of the classes that give sneak attack, Assassin or Deep Sea Pirate seem to be the easiest to qualify for.
I'd say Ninja if you were going Charisma based Sorcerer, but, yes, Vivisectionist is a great dip for a Wizard Arcane Trickster.

[Thrair]

Yah, Vivisectionist is probably better mechanically. But it really don't quite fit with my character concept.


Why does Spellslinger need FOUR Opposed. Argh! If only +cast level prestige classes increased effective wizard level. Then I could just take an Arcane Discovery for Opposition Research, clear out one of those opposed.

I'm leaning towards a non-spellslinger build, at this point. Just to avoid the school losses.

[Spore]

I'm leaning towards a non-spellslinger build, at this point. Just to avoid the school losses.

Yeah, they hit your flexibility pretty hard and unless you can count on a team that is built around providing you with opportunities to set up sneaks with specific spells, you are less than a one-trick-pony. You are a "one-trick-pony-if-the-stars-are-aligned-perfectly-and-the-sun-shines upon-you".

After personal experiences with the rogue and the AT class, I generally recommend rogue/ninja/vivisectionist x + wizard CL-x builds just because the trickster is not great.

If you only go rogue to get trapfinding, rogue 1, wizard 9 would probably best anyways. More utility, still enough skills to pull of perception pro, trap disabler and stealth guy with the side of heavy spellcasting. You don't have Arcane Trickster on your charsheet but you can call your character whatever you want. If you prefer "Gandalf Hood, too sexy to be legal, too slick to be caught" then this be your new title. There is something strangely satisfying with having the caster level prog. of an sorcerer while having the flexibility of spells from the Wizard and the insane utility of a character with 2+one bazillion max. ranked skills WITH CLASS SKILLS IN THEM.

I would go Rogue 1/Transmuter 9 for minimum caster level loss and maximum utility or Rogue 2/Transmuter 8 for Evasion and the possibilites to take up rogue tricks via. feats.

[Thrair]

Ok, hate to necro my thread, but there is one last question I need answered before I settle on a build:

Can you scribe a cantrip (Mage Hand) into a spellbook as a 1st level spell? Since Spellslingers do not have cantrips?

If you can, I can go the more optimized blaster build, and it should be fairly fun. If not, I'm going to settle on the jack-of-all trades build.

[Stux]

If we are getting super technical with regards to RAW:

I believe you still have slots for cantrips, as these are part of the table and not part of the 'cantrips' class feature. It also looks like you have all cantrips in your spellbook as again this is not part of the 'cantrips' class feature, but part of the 'spells' class feature.

The 'cantrips' class feature, by RAW, just gives you the ability to not lose prepared cantrips when they are cast. However I wouldn't expect this to fly with most DMs, as the Spellslinger archetype seems to heavily imply that it expects you to lose access to all but the two cantrips mentioned by losing the 'cantrips' class feature.

[Spore]

If you want to be rules mongering you could also say that you loose access to all class features of the Trickster after you have cast your daily allotment of mage hand. Because you don't meet the requirement of "being able to cast mage hand" (cast, not prepare) any more.

Thrair, just buy that damn 900 GP necklace!

[Stux]

Personally I'd rule that you can still get Cantrips by using the Extra Spell feat (even though they are not technically 'of a spell level you can cast') and slot them as 1st Level. Cantrips are that weak that I can't see any fair DM not allowing that.