how to maximize a whip?

[CyberThread]

What should everyone do if they want to main weapon a whip or whip dagger

[Sir_Thaddeus]

Are you playing 3.5 or Pathfinder? I'm not sure what the best whip options in 3.5 are, but in Pathfinder there's a line of Whip Mastery feats that are pretty good, at least as far as I can tell (I've never seen them in play).
Whip Mastery (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/whip-mastery-combat) removes a lot of the limitations of whips, namely the provoking of AoOs, the only-nonlethal, and the armor/natural armor immunity.
Improved Whip Mastery (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/improved-whip-mastery-combat) gives a few more options. Most importantly (in my opinion) you now threaten with it, but there's also the utility of grabbing objects.
Greater Whip Mastery (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/greater-whip-mastery-combat) improves your ability to trip or disarm with the whip, and also gives you the option of grappling with it.

[Forrestfire]

The Exotic Weapon Master from Complete Warrior is a good class for this, as it gets you attacks without AoOs (Close Combat Shot). The class also gives you the ability to TWF at only a -1/-1 penalty if you have spare feats for it.

Since a whip dagger is technically a ranged weapon, you can use Rapid Shot to get an extra attack if you want, and other ranged feats might be useful. Sadly, it looks like you should also need Precise Shot to actually be useful in melee.

Since you can't make attacks of opportunity normally, I'd wear spiked armor so you can threaten at least in melee early on, and Lasher lets you threaten out to five feet later. Picking up the Ranged Threat feat from Dragon #350 lets you threaten out to 15 feat, but it can only be used once per round and is fairly feat intensive. Alternatively, do this, (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=8991.0) but be prepared to dodge books :smalltongue:

The Lasher PrC could be useful, but I feel like the Exotic Weapon Master does the most important thing it does (use whips in combat). However, a dip of two levels lets you use the whip as a third hand, which is extremely useful. It also frees up an exotic weapon trick.

All-in-all, I think that the build depends on how many feats you have access to, since it wants both ranged attack feats and others to actually be useful.

If I were to build a melee combatant with a focus on whips, I'd probably do something like:

Drow Targeteer Fighter 2/Full BAB 3/Lasher 2/Exotic Weapon Master 1/Full BAB 13

Targeteer Fighter gets you Vital Aim, adding Dex mod to damage on ranged attacks, and the Drow Fighter variant (which explicitly doesn't require you to be a Drow) lets you add your Dex mod to damage again against flat-footed enemies within 30ft.

Pick up Craven to buff your damage (since Lasher grants sneak attack), and go to town. Thankfully, you don't need Weapon Finesse to use your dex for attacks with a Whip Dagger. Maybe ask the DM if whip dagger qualifies for use with the Invisible Blade prc for spamming sneak attack damage. If not, just go flank or something.

[FrznTear]

There is a 3.0 Prestige class from Sword and Fist called lasher, haven't looked into it.

There should also be a skill trick from complete scroundrel that lets you swing with your whip.

I also recall there being a prestige class that lets you apply touch spells to your whip, I think it was female only, which is odd.

[ngilop]

Yeah teh 3.0 PrC Lasher is pretty cool, though a couple of the abilities I feel can be a bit better with a couple of the abilities colalsped into each other and soem level equivlent abilities added in look for it to be re-made here in my fixed PrC thread. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=311379)

you have given me inspiration CyberDrag :)

[Waker]

Since a whip dagger is technically a ranged weapon, you can use Rapid Shot to get an extra attack if you want, and other ranged feats might be useful. Sadly, it looks like you should also need Precise Shot to actually be useful in melee.
How do you figure?

A whip deals nonlethal damage. It deals no damage to any creature with an armor bonus of +1 or higher or a natural armor bonus of +3 or higher. The whip is treated as a melee weapon with 15-foot reach, though you don’t threaten the area into which you can make an attack. In addition, unlike most other weapons with reach, you can use it against foes anywhere within your reach (including adjacent foes).
Using a whip provokes an attack of opportunity, just as if you had used a ranged weapon.
The only way that a whip is like a Ranged Weapon is that you provoke an AoO when using it in the melee.
I will agree that Exotic Weapon Master and Lasher are the way to go if you want to crack that whip though.

[Forrestfire]

Whip Dagger uses different text, and was never updated to 3.5:


Although you keep it in hand, treat it as a ranged weapon with a maximum range of 15 feet and no range penalties.

[Waker]

Ah, that makes sense. I misread your post and thought you were referring to a normal whip.

[CyberThread]

you are "throwing" a dagger on a leash.... I think they are using this like the kotai ribbon daggers.

[chronomatophobe]

Consider taking a level in Pyrokineticist if you wanna completely ignore armor forever.

[Forrestfire]

At the point where you're burning a level for that, a level of something with Wraithstrike and a wand would just be cheaper, especially since the lash will do 1d8 fire damage... but that's it. No weapon enhancements, no bonus damage from strength if you use it at all... Eh. Might be cool to wield a whip made of fire, though.

[mabriss lethe]

Consider taking a level in Pyrokineticist if you wanna completely ignore armor forever.

Seconding Pyro or one of its alternate energy variants (preferably the sonokineticist or the acetokineticist). Depending on what class you use as a point of entry, it's good for a short dip, or for a long haul. Pretty much any class can be a feasible entry point for the PrC if ToB is in play. Martial Study(diamond mind) will grant Concentration as a class skill if it isn't on your list already, and the other skill requirements are easy enough to pick up even paying cross class costs.

My preferred points of entry for Pyro are actually otherwise horrible classes like Soulknife and Divine Mind. It gives you everything you need to enter the PrC gift wrapped, adds a few useful abilities that you can carry over, and you don't give a second thought to leaving your base class behind.

[Forrestfire]

If you do go with something from Tome of Battle, be sure to enchant any whip daggers and whips you use with the Discipline Weapon enhancement. If you're sticking to a main stance, it's +3 to hit for a +1 enhancement, which is really nice if you're using precision damage to stay competent.

Another ridiculously good enhancement for the whip dagger is Seeking. Miss chances are a very useful higher level defense, and completely ignoring them as a "melee" damage dealer is very strong.

[Pickford]

CyberDrag:

What should everyone do if they want to main weapon a whip or whip dagger

Well...here are some things to consider:
1) A whip deals nonlethal damage, and can't damage a creature with an armor bonus of >=+1 or natural armor bonus of >=+3
2) Whips don't threaten
3) Whips provoke AoO, just as if you had used a ranged weapon. (Please note, this does not actually make the Whip a ranged weapon, it isn't, it's a melee weapon with reach)

So...if you plan on using a whip, you really need to consider how you're going to hurt something... (i.e. dual wielding in some fashion, or using spells)


Forrestfire:

The Exotic Weapon Master from Complete Warrior is a good class for this, as it gets you attacks without AoOs (Close Combat Shot).

Except the Whip is a melee weapon with reach, not a ranged weapon.

[Forrestfire]

Except the Whip is a melee weapon with reach, not a ranged weapon.

Whip dagger is a ranged weapon, as quoted above (although it doesn't matter if you're going with a Lasher build/Lasher dip, and EWM should be used for TWF bonuses or replaced most likely.

[Silvanoshei]

Always thought a Brilliant Energy whip would be cool. :smallredface:

[shaikujin]

Argh, all the good ones I know like Pyrokineticist, Lasher and EW Master haave all already been mentioned... so has Dagger Whips...

Ok, remember to get the "mighty" versions that allows you to add Str to damage. Bards grants EWP Whip.



But having tried whip builds before, I'd recommend the Rope Dart from Dragon Magazine #319 Pg 73. It requires EWP, but has the same 15 ft reach and threatens all within reach normally.

And is 2 handed.

And is a special monk weapon.

And can trip.

And finese-able.

And it's piercing.

And has a bludgeoning version called Meteor Hammer.

[Werephilosopher]

The Exotic Weapon Master from Complete Warrior is a good class for this, as it gets you attacks without AoOs (Close Combat Shot). The class also gives you the ability to TWF at only a -1/-1 penalty if you have spare feats for it.

EWM only affects two-weapon fighting with light weapons though. Whips are one-handed, I believe; are whip-daggers light?

[Forrestfire]

That's what I get for not pulling out the books to check the exact text. :smallredface::smallsigh:

Just ignore anything I say about Exotic Weapon Master and dip some levels of Lasher or something.

[Piggy Knowles]

Duskblades make pretty solid whip users at levels 13+. Full attack channeling with 15' reach is fun.

[Nettlekid]

People often talk about ToB and how there aren't any good maneuvers with range. A whip-user, maybe with a couple levels of Lasher to make the whip more regular melee weapon-ish, would be a pretty good way to use those maneuvers at decent range.

I wonder, a regular reach weapon basically doubles range, so a Large creature with 10 ft reach has 20 ft reach with a reach weapon. Does a whip follow those same rules? Or moreso, since it's 15 ft reach? If you were Large, or had things that increase your range like Inhuman Reach or Willing Deformity: Tall, would a Large whip have 30 ft reach?

What's the best PrC to support a whip user? Lasher is good, but as people have said, you probably don't want to go to 10. Level 5 might be good if you want the SA, or 3 if you just want Crack of Fate. So if you took 5 levels of a full BAB class, up to 5 of Lasher, and 10 of another PrC, what would that other PrC be?

[Forrestfire]

For 10 levels, Suel Arcanamach 4/Abjurant Champion 5/Spellsword 1 gets you 9 BAB and 5th-level spells for utility and buffing.

[ngilop]

Here is the new and improved Lasher (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=311379)

hope you enjoy cyberdrag its on page 2 :)

[Nettlekid]

I've been trying to figure out how to make a good ToB build, unusually adding range to the maneuvers with the whip. High damage maneuvers like Strike of Perfect Clarity and Greater Insightful Strike, many-hit maneuvers like Avalanche of Blades and Time Stands Still (perhaps combined with a "per hit" ability like Wounding), or just fun maneuvers like Comet Throw all seem like interesting uses of a whip. But I can't figure out how to max out ToB effectiveness alongside BAB and prevent being feat-starved. Eternal Blade is always a good ToB PrC to use, but I don't want to miss out on the utility and style of many Swordsage-only maneuvers, but then I'm prevented from taking all 10 levels of Eternal Blade if I lose so much as a single BAB. Can anyone make a good build out of this? I'm almost tempted to try Master of Nine, except those prereqs are terrible.

[Lyndworm]

Whip Dagger uses different text, and was never updated to 3.5:
Well, not in a book, no. It got an update in Dragon magazine #353, p28, in an article about Iggwilv. It's the same thing but now it works like a 3.5 whip rather than a 3.0 whip.


Always thought a Brilliant Energy whip would be cool. :smallredface:
I once (shortly) played a half-ogre who dual-wielded them. It was glorious.

[Forrestfire]

Well, not in a book, no. It got an update in Dragon magazine #353, p28, in an article about Iggwilv. It's the same thing but now it works like a 3.5 whip rather than a 3.0 whip.


Ah, I had totally forgotten about that.

[Vortenger]

Just found Lethe's Lash in the Planar Handbook again last night. +1 whip that when it hits a target, removes a spell slot or spell like ability of the highest possible level from the target hit. Retro-fit that onto a whip dagger for a little extra anti-caster awesomeness.

[Darrin]

Person_Man's Flaming Homer (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4108954&postcount=22) build uses the Pyrokineticist's Flame Lash to do unspeakable things with bull rushes.