The Hammer Power

[Kuulvheysoon]

The power in question:
Hammer
Psychometabolism
Level: Psion/wilder 1, psychic warrior 1
Display: Auditory and material
Manifesting Time: 1 swift action
Range: Touch
Target: Creature touched
Duration: 1 round
Saving Throw: None
Power Resistance: Yes
Power Points: 1
This power charges your touch with the force of a sledgehammer. A successful melee touch attack deals 1d8 points of bludgeoning damage. This damage is not increased or decreased by your Strength modifier.

Augment
For every additional power point you spend, this power’s duration increases by 1 round
The disagreement:
I think I can do one better than a build stub and post an actual character sheet. This is a Tibbit PC I've played from 1st-7th level:

http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=659407

At 20th, he would be a Swordsage 1/Erudite 5/Jade Pheonix Psion 10/Slayer 4 (or optionally more Erudite levels instead of Slayer). At 7th though, he's already a (tiny) beast in or out of combat. Many, many psionic powers provide enormous versatility. Linked Power+Metapower allow 1st level buffs to be stacked freely. An AC approaching 30 (when buffed), a hide check exceeding 40, and soon to be much higher once a Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis is purchased. In combat, he can take a -20 on hide checks to full attack from hiding with up to 15' reach against flatfooted touch AC for between 70-90 damage or more/round. Maneuvers provide additional defenses and combat options, which are great. Burning Blade is awesome and highly entertaining in practice.

One of the really nice Psion powers for this build is Hammer. It's amazing: not only is it a 1st level multi-round Wraithstrike, it also removes the strength penalty AND increases bite and claw damage to d8 each. Incredible.

In practice, this is just a really, really fun, versatile, and effective build. If you happen to have a larger point-buy budget than I did, buy wisdom up to 14 and take Psionic Meditation instead of Psychic Meditation for extra in-combat emergency buffing. Though typically, it really isn't needed.


That's... not what Hammer does.

It gives you a melee touch attack for 1d8 damage 1/round. So if you used 3 PP on it, you could make a single melee touch attack (that deals 1d8 as a standard action) once a round for 3 rounds. It doesn't increase the damage for your existing natural attacks.


I have discussed this power before on various boards to confirm the above interpretation, because it did seem too good to be true. I have had several very knowledgeable people confirm it (at least one mentioned using it in combination with Hydra form). It will take more than a single dissenting voice to change my mind at this point.
Discuss.

(separated from parent thread so as to not derail it too badly).

[Big Fau]

Madwand is incorrect. Here's Wraithstrike:


While this spell is in effect, your melee attacks are resolved as melee touch attacks rather than normal melee attacks.

The wording on it is completely different from the wording on the Hammer power.

However, using the Touch attack from Hammer is an Attack action. Iteratives work for it, it just doesn't modify the damage of your weapons or natural weapons (it itself is a weapon).

[Karnith]

The Hammer power also doesn't change a creature's natural weapon damage. I'm not really sure how it could be read to do so, either.

EDIT: Ninja edit getting the better of me

[Maginomicon]

Yet another example of how the format for spell/power stat blocks is ambiguous.

"A touch attack" is basically a slap. The duration increase just lets you make touch attacks that have the hammer ability for longer. It doesn't "replace" the damage die of the weapon. It just gives you the ability to slap someone whenever you have a choice to make an attack. Thus, if you have iteratives or multiple natural weapons you can arguably make multiple touch attacks per round, but it doesn't enhance your attacks otherwise. For example, if I had a thri-kreen with this power and used all of my 5 natural weapons, that's 5d8 each round.

Now, given the language of the power's flavor text, what it arguably can do is act similar to a "held charge" of an effect such as corrosive grasp. Under that interpretation, the hammer power's damage can arguably be added onto a normal non-touch attack with a weapon that could deliver a held charge (since succeeding on beating their non-touch AC means you beat their touch AC as well). This is probably the RAI for the hammer power. For a thri-kreen, that means its five natural weapons now do 1d4+1d8 damage. Additionally, you arguably can claim that even if you miss the non-touch AC, if it beat the touch AC then the hammer power still deals its damage.

"Multi-round wraithstrike" though? No. There's no way it does that.

[Madwand99]

I've done my due diligence on this power already:

http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=810.10

As all the attacks are touch attacks, it certainly is a multi-round Wraithstrike. Obviously not all builds can use it as such, but a Tibbit certainly can.

[Karnith]

The problem with adding Hammer damage to natural attacks is that the Hammer power does not itself deal damage (or it makes zero sense/is dysfunctional if it does, anyway). It is a buff spell delivered at touch range that grants the target creature (You? It's poorly-written) a touch attack. There are rules for discharging touch spells with unarmed strikes and natural weapons (see e.g. Holding the Charge on the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#standardCastaSpell) or Rules Compendium, p. 126), but they don't apply to Hammer unless you feel the desire to deliver buff spells to your allies via punching.

As Maginomicon has noted, it may well be sensible to rule that the damage from the touch attacks granted by Hammer can be added to natural weapons, but to the best of my knowledge there isn't RAW supporting this (the Hammer touch attack is its own attack; it would be like trying to combine an unarmed strike and a bite into one attack), and adding Hammer damage in a manner consistent with holding a charge on touch spells wouldn't let you make your natural attacks as touch attacks; you'd still need to connect with your natural attacks normally.

[Pluto!]

There are two different delivery mechanisms that are being conflated here:


Unarmed and Natural Attacks with Touch Spells: If you hold the charge of a touch spell, you can make a normal unarmed attack or an attack with a natural weapon at a later time. In this case, you’re considered armed only if your unarmed attack or natural weapon attack doesn’t provoke attacks of opportunity. Otherwise, you provoke attacks of opportunity as normal. If the attack hits, you deal normal damage for your unarmed attack or natural weapon, and the spell discharges.


Granted, this does specifically discuss spells and not powers, but since the psionic "Holding the Charge" rules appear to have literally been copied and pasted from those pertaining to spells, I think it strains credulity more to assume that the RC's later clarifications aren't pertinent to psionics than to assume that they are.

This means that:

The power can be delivered as a touch attack for [1d8+bonuses] damage. For characters with insane bonus damage like sneak attackers, the replacement of 1d8 for base weapon damage is negligible, making the power pretty similar to wraithstrike.

OR

The charge can be held and power can be delivered with a normal (non-touch) attack with natural weapons, essentially just adding +1d8 to the unarmed strike or natural weapon damage (including Grafted weapons). This use looks a lot more like blade of blood than it does wraithstrike.

It's probably worth mentioning that no poster in the linked thread assumes that the natural weapon damage itself is made with a touch attack.

EDIT:
It looks like a buff spell and it acts like a buff spell, but it's not a buff spell. Hammer has touch range, which is really all it takes to hold that charge.

[Madwand99]

The problem with adding Hammer damage to natural attacks is that the Hammer power does not itself deal damage. It is a buff spell delivered at touch range that grants the target creature a touch attack. There are rules for discharging touch spells with unarmed strikes and natural weapons (see e.g. Holding the Charge on the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#standardCastaSpell) or Rules Compendium, p. 126), but they don't apply to Hammer unless you feel the desire to deliver buff spells to your allies via punching.

As Maginomicon has noted, it may well be sensible to rule that the damage from the touch attacks granted by Hammer can be added to natural weapons, but to the best of my knowledge there isn't RAW supporting this (the Hammer touch attack is its own attack; it would be like trying to combine an unarmed strike and a bite into one attack), and adding Hammer damage in a manner consistent with holding a charge on touch spells wouldn't let you make your natural attacks as touch attacks.

The target for the Hammer power is usually the manifester, unless he has another Tibbit buddy or metamorphed psicrystal. You can certainly target yourself with Touch powers. This buffs the manifester with 1d8 touch attacks.

I have never said that Hammer adds it's damage to natural attacks. Instead, it replaces (effectively, "upgrades") the 1d2 or 1d3 damage done by a Tibbit to 1d8 bludgeoning damage. And cancels their strength penalty.

[pwykersotz]

Yeah, it's not a multi-round wraithstrike by any reading I see. It's just a touch attack for 1d8. You should be able to make it iterative no problem, but adding natural weapon damage doesn't look like it flies. The wording is "A successful melee touch attack deals 1d8 points of bludgeoning damage." That means that even if you wrangled the interpretation you could use it with a natural attack, the damage would be changed to exactly 1d8 with no Str mod, at least by my reading.

Edit: Apparently I agree completely with Madwand99.

[Big Fau]

I've done my due diligence on this power already:

http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=810.10

As all the attacks are touch attacks, it certainly is a multi-round Wraithstrike. Obviously not all builds can use it as such, but a Tibbit certainly can.

Looking at that thread, no you haven't.

While you most certainly can replace those attacks with Hammer uses, that is not the same as increasing the damage your natural weapons do. If you'll notice, Lycanthromancer is using each head from his Hydra form to deliver a Hammer touch. He's actually doing half as much damage as the normal attack routine if both he and his Psicrystal would be doing.

While you are able to use iterative attacks with the Hammer power, it is not the same thing as a Wraithstrike. Furthermore, if you'll notice:


Hammer A: Melee touch attack deals 1d8/round.

While text trumps table, the Powers list isn't a table.

[Karnith]

I have never said that Hammer adds it's damage to natural attacks. Instead, it replaces (effectively, "upgrades") the 1d2 or 1d3 damage done by a Tibbit to 1d8 bludgeoning damage. And cancels their strength penalty.
Then I have misunderstood you due to poor phrasing; if you are saying that it gives the Tibbit a melee touch attack that deals damage as specified in the power description, then yes, that's accurate.

It does not, however, replace a creature's natural attacks. The power grants you a separate attack. It is unrelated to a creature's natural attacks.

[Madwand99]

It does not, however, replace a creature's natural attacks. The power grants you a separate attack. It is unrelated to a creature's natural attacks.

Not unrelated, as you get a 1d8 touch attack for each natural attack you had previously. Then you add damage buffs (except Strength). Sneak attack, for example, or Burning Blade. That's why this is so amazing.

[Callin]

The way I read it. You have spell/power active, you attack with a touch spell, your first attack is against touch and does 1d8, your subsequent attacks are as per normal against Regular Armor Class and deals Normal Damage.

[Madwand99]

The way I read it. You have spell/power active, you attack with a touch spell, your first attack is against touch and does 1d8, your subsequent attacks are as per normal against Regular Armor Class and deals Normal Damage.

Not quite. It's confusing because there are two "touch" entries the power talks about: it's Range & Target entry, and the touch attack. The key is realizing these are different things. The Range/Target is for buffing someone with a touch-range power, either the manifester or an ally. The buff gives them the power to make 1d8 touch attacks for 1 round/PP spent.

[Maginomicon]

Not quite. It's confusing because there are two "touch" entries the power talks about: it's Range & Target entry, and the touch attack. The key is realizing these are different things. The Range/Target is for buffing someone with a touch-range power, either the manifester or an ally. The buff gives them the power to make 1d8 touch attacks for 1 round/PP spent.
By that logic, you're able to grant the benefit of chill touch (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/chillTouch.htm) to someone else. (You can't.)

[Madwand99]

By that logic, you're able to grant the benefit of chill touch (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/chillTouch.htm) to someone else. (You can't.)

Nope. Chill Touch is a very different spell. First of all, it is Duration: Instantaneous. Hammer lasts for multiple rounds (so one way or another, it is definitely a buff). Second, the effect of Hammer is not directly damage-to-target. It's effect is a buff that grants the target a 1d8 touch attack for multiple rounds.

[Phelix-Mu]

TL/DR for everyone: If you intend to use this power in a game, do everyone a favor and write and rewrite it in a form that makes it's use and effect clear.

Most of the powers in the book aren't so terribly written as hammer. That said, the interface of natural attacks and how they stack or not with other attacks is soundly "There Be Dragons" territory.

As I recall, Tippy's Terribly Terrific Trial had some submissions that made use of hammer to add damage to their attacks. I think. All the builds in that challenge got complex in a hurry, and were using every inch of monk optimization out there (and then some).

[Maginomicon]

Nope. Chill Touch is a very different spell. First of all, it is Duration: Instantaneous. Hammer lasts for multiple rounds (so one way or another, it is definitely a buff). Second, the effect of Hammer is not directly damage-to-target. It's effect is a buff that grants the target a 1d8 touch attack for multiple rounds.
It doesn't matter that Chill Touch is marked instantaneous in the stat block. That's not how stat blocks work. If a spell or power that did ability damage and also had another effect happened to have a non-instantaneous non-permanent duration line, the ability damage isn't restricted to that duration because ability damage is an instantaneous effect (the duration would apply to the other effect). Although ambiguous, it's very easy to interpret it when you consider the context of the entire thing as a whole. In the same way, offensive-type multi-charge touch spells (such as Chill Touch), which are functionally very similar to Hammer, don't grant the ability to make Chill Touch attacks to someone else. They grant it to you. Same thing goes with Hammer. The range and target lines are there to indicate as shorthand that the rules for their subject apply to the effect. The context of the effect describes what really happens (especially when it's too complex for the shorthand to get the point across, in which they often include "see text"), and in this case it's clear that's it's a lot like True Strike except that instead of granting a +20 to the "next" attack roll in a single round, it grants use of a special touch attack option for one round for all attack actions you can make in that round, with the augment increasing how many rounds it's available.

[TuggyNE]

It doesn't matter that Chill Touch is marked instantaneous in the stat block.

It actually does, in this case, because it makes it quite plain that chill touch cannot grant a buff to the touched creatures, since buffs are essentially never distributed in instantaneous form.

I don't think hammer actually does let you give somebody else a melee touch attack, but you can't deny it's not written as clearly and misses a significant possible clarification.

[Maginomicon]

Okay, so you want an effect that's almost identical to Hammer's stat block then, that can be used as an example? Fine.

Handfang. (from Lords of Darkness, although your google-fu won't fail you.)

It grants you access to a touch attack that lasts for 1 round/level that deals damage on a hit (1d8 damage no-less, how about that?) and ends access to its effect when the duration expires. It's blatantly obvious (especially when you look at both of these effects together) that the only possible intention is not that it lets someone else get the Handfang, but that you get the Handfang. Furthermore, it's clear that the Handfang is on your hand one way or another for the entire duration, just like Hammer only applies to you.

[Madwand99]

Handfang is, if anything, even more poorly-written than Hammer, so I would not use it as a precedent. In any case, the "duration" in Handfang specifically refers to the duration that the mouth holds onto the target. Unlike Hammer, Handfang is thus not a buff, but rather a targeted damaging spell (like Chill Touch) that has a lingering effect that lasts for the specified duration. Hammer's duration refers to how long the 1d8 touch attack buff lasts on it's target.

[Maginomicon]

:smallconfused:

...

*sigh*

Pardon me a moment while I break the fourth wall and address the audience-of-the-future.

I should probably mention a disclaimer at this point that if anyone reading this thread is the GM for your group, you've probably seen numerous effects in your experiences learning this system that grant a buff kind-of like this for a duration, and as GM to your group, only your interpretation actually matters. That said, as you've seen, there are a multitude of effects that support the interpretation that myself and most of the people that have replied to this thread (so-far, besides Madwand99 of-course) have been in general mutual agreement that Hammer is a self-buff that grants a touch attack option for the duration, nothing more. Take or leave that information as you please, but -- personally -- I'm not going to be replying to (or even looking at) this thread from this point forward. I neither claim nor imply any sort of ownership, responsibility, or obligation to this topic to keep "debating" an issue that's already been resolved with someone that has yet to supply even one example effect that could adequately support his position. For most of us so-far, the correct interpretation is crystal-clear. Thus, my "job" (so-to-speak) is done. For that and other reasons, I'm backing away from what's likely about to devolve into something ugly. This does not indicate that I'm "conceding" the discussion (or anything for that matter), just that I've grown weary of the way that Madwand99 is trying to defend his own so-far-unpopular interpretation. I have little-to-no doubt that Madwand99 (or someone else) will claim I'm conceding or something like that (or at least think it, since the "berate until no one's talking anymore" strategy of internet "discussion" is a long-standing -- albeit moronic -- tradition that's likely to never die out), but... audience-member-from-the-future, you and I both know now that that's not the case here with me, so... there you go. :smallsigh:

[avr]

As I see it -
The power list says it gives a touch attack doing 1d8/round;
The full description does not conflict with this, though it doesn't exactly say this;
Therefore as the power list is the only clear info on the power, it gives one touch attack doing 1d8/round.

Edit: which might well be combined with other, non-Hammer attacks, to be clear.

[Deox]

The way I read it. You have spell/power active, you attack with a touch spell, your first attack is against touch and does 1d8, your subsequent attacks are as per normal against Regular Armor Class and deals Normal Damage.

That's exactly how I read it.

[nedz]

As I see it -
The power list says it gives a touch attack doing 1d8/round;
The full description does not conflict with this, though it doesn't exactly say this;
Therefore as the power list is the only clear info on the power, it gives one touch attack doing 1d8/round.

Edit: which might well be combined with other, non-Hammer attacks, to be clear.

It can be read either way, especially with the augmentation extending the duration.

One for the dysfunctional rules thread perhaps ?

[Phelix-Mu]

For what it's worth, here is the original, pre-errata statblock of hammer.

From EPH 111:

Hammer
Psychometabolism
Level: Psion/wilder 1, psychic
warrior 1
Display: Auditory and material
Manifesting Time: 1 standard
action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: 1 round
Power Points: 1


Now, since it's been errata'd none of this is in any way RAW, but it does speak to RAI in my mind. The pre-errata description and augment is exactly the same, and between the use of "your" and the target line "personal" of this, it seems clear to me that it was intended to be self only.

As far as I can tell, the reason the errata was introduced was because the original above was stupidly granting a one round touch attack that took a standard action to get, meaning that it would only be usable once (or perhaps not at all), whereas the augment clearly indicates that they wanted it to be usable multiple times. The errata makes it look more like a touch range spell, which seems counter to what they really wanted to do, which was grant a buff effect (maybe?).:smallconfused:

Or maybe they just reconceived the power for the errata. *tips hat to WotC's editing staff*

EDIT: Hmm, according to my errata file, the new statblock is

Level: Psion/wilder 1, psychic warrior 1
Display: Auditory and material
Manifesting Time: 1 swift action
Range: Touch
Duration: 1 round
Saving Throw: None
Power Resistance: Yes
Power Points: 1

Which entirely lacks a target entry. I wonder where the SRD got that from. Was hammer reprinted in Complete Psionics?

[A Tad Insane]

A man's gotta do what a man's gotta do! It seems destiny ends with me saving you!

Now that I got that out of my system, the augment says it can happen multiple turns, but it stipulates it must me a touch attack.

[Psyren]

Was Hammer reprinted in Complete Psionics?

It was not.

Personally I rule it as a self-only buff ("charges your touch") that gives you a special touch attack, with which you can make iteratives. It's really nasty on Psyrogues since you can get off several high-damage touch-sneak-attacks with it in one routine; charge Hammer and full-attack.

Note that DSP nerfed the hell out of it (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/psionic-powers/h/hammer) for PF; it makes a lot more sense there but is also much weaker.

[Madwand99]

Yup, I'm inclined to agree with Psyren's interpretation. The pre-errata version of Hammer clearly points to RAI making Hammer a personal-only buff. What the writers were thinking errata'ing it to a touch spell I can't imagine, it made the power much more difficult to understand. Of course, none of this has any effect on the actual usefulness of the power so other than making it more confusing to interpret the change makes no real difference.

What I can't figure out are the people who say Hammer is only 1/round. What in the power description would make them think that? Even spells like Chill Touch or Shocking Grasp when "holding the charge" allow for iterative attacks. Nothing in Hammer's description makes it an exception to this general rule. The only difference is that as Hammer has a multi-round duration instead of being Instantaneous, it is not discharged as other Touch spells are and thus multiple attacks can be landed per round.

[Rubik]

TL/DR for everyone: If you intend to use this power in a game, do everyone a favor and write and rewrite it in a form that makes it's use and effect clear.

Most of the powers in the book aren't so terribly written as hammer. That said, the interface of natural attacks and how they stack or not with other attacks is soundly "There Be Dragons" territory.

As I recall, Tippy's Terribly Terrific Trial had some submissions that made use of hammer to add damage to their attacks. I think. All the builds in that challenge got complex in a hurry, and were using every inch of monk optimization out there (and then some).I know mine (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=15474863#post15474863) did. That was half the reason I wanted a level of psywar in the first place. +1d8 bludgeoning damage per attack goes a long way when you have that many.

[123456789blaaa]

I know mine (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=15474863#post15474863) did. That was half the reason I wanted a level of psywar in the first place. +1d8 bludgeoning damage per attack goes a long way when you have that many.

With the amount of times you plug that build, I'm surprised you don't have it in your sig :smalltongue:.

[Rubik]

With the amount of times you plug that build, I'm surprised you don't have it in your sig :smalltongue:.We talk a lot about monks around here. I'm just proud of having made a seriously effective, mostly-monk build. I didn't even need those three non-monk class levels; I just wanted the feats they provided (and the Hammer power).

[123456789blaaa]

We talk a lot about monks around here. I'm just proud of having made a seriously effective, mostly-monk build. I didn't even need those three non-monk class levels; I just wanted the feats they provided (and the Hammer power).

Oh I'm not ragging on you. You put a ton of work into the build and it is really good. It makes sense that you'd want to plug it (the question was genuine though. Why not link it in your sig?).

[Rubik]

Oh I'm not ragging on you. You put a ton of work into the build and it is really good. It makes sense that you'd want to plug it (the question was genuine though. Why not link it in your sig?).I try not to add too much to my signature. It's not like anyone really reads them anyway, right? I mean, did you even look in the spoiler-block in mine prior to reading this post? I would bet not.

[Psyren]

I try not to add too much to my signature. It's not like anyone really reads them anyway, right? I mean, did you even look in the spoiler-block in mine prior to reading this post? I would bet not.

D'awwwwwww.

[Rubik]

D'awwwwwww.That's why I have him on my computer's wallpaper.

[avr]

What I can't figure out are the people who say Hammer is only 1/round. What in the power description would make them think that? Even spells like Chill Touch or Shocking Grasp when "holding the charge" allow for iterative attacks. Nothing in Hammer's description makes it an exception to this general rule. The only difference is that as Hammer has a multi-round duration instead of being Instantaneous, it is not discharged as other Touch spells are and thus multiple attacks can be landed per round.
The reason to think it can be used for 1 attack round is the bolded section

Hammer A: Melee touch attack deals 1d8/round.
plus the use of the singular in the full power description

A successful melee touch attack deals 1d8 points of bludgeoning damage.
The former is definitive, the latter isn't but is consistent with the former.

BTW, Shocking Grasp is good for one attack only unless you're a 13th level duskblade, and Chill Touch is good for one attack/level not 1 round/level.

[Psyren]

If it's only usable once per round it's basically useless though. Shocking Grasp is too but at least the damage on it scales; Chill Touch's damage does not, but it can be used with iteratives. A power that does neither is pointless.

I don't think it can be added to a weapon or transferred to someone else or anything like that, but I do think that letting someone make iteratives with it by themselves is perfectly reasonable.

[Telok]

I have a theory-build sitting around somewhere using three levels of monk, three levels of Psi-war, and three levels of Psionic Fist. It used Hammer, Strength of My Enemy, and some feats and what not for extra attacks. The idea was to slap an enemy with a pile of 1d8 touch attacks that drained the target's strength and added it to the character's strength.

The 1d8 damage wasn't the point for that build, the point was using Hammer to make lots of touch attacks and drain strength.

[Just to Browse]

From a balance perspective, it's off-the-charts strong if you allow multiple attacks. 3 touch attacks at level 1 for longsword damage doesn't even make sense from a balance standpoint.

However, after reading the power, I agree that by design it gives you 1d8 touch attacks without limit for its duration. The synopsis text doesn't even work in this argument, because it can read that if you make a melee touch attack, the target gets hit over and over each round for 1d8 damage.

Good thoughts here though. Will use on tashalatora psywar builds.