Dresden Files II: Dealing Drugs To Tiny Faeries

[CarpeGuitarrem]

I don't know about offscreen all that much. In Storm Front there is that ritual sex happening right there in the *ahem* climax even if its not dwelt on in graphic detail and isn't tremendously important. Down to about middle aged couple "and they were having sex" is about the level of detail. Overall the violence is somewhere in the PG-13 to R range but nothing tremendous, especially for in text form. I suspect a typical 15 year old has very probably already encountered edgier material. That's inferring this is a 15-to-16 birthday anyways.

Really probably sounds worse in the abstract then it is.

Unless you think your cousin is going to have a major freak out and go running to her parents afterward (or they're likely to yoink, read, and trash the book themselves) I see no reason at all to mention it to them. Those sorta cases are probably better grounds for finding a less problematic present and if she really wants to check it out slip her a paperback at a less public venue later.
Also, there was the mid-coitus heart rip in the start of the book. Harry does take a bit of time to note the pose of the bodies in clinical detail.

[Lamech]

New crackpot theory, borne of my continued re-reading binge:



So while a regular person who lacked the sense could, technically, learn how to use magic without it, it would be a process as difficult as someone who was born blind teaching himself to paint.
So, who do we know who is A) a regular non-magic person, B) incredibly smart, and C) in possession of the most powerful and knowledgeable tutor regarding magical theory on Earth?
Interesting Crackpot Theory. I will raise you this crackpot theory.
If you need a magical sense to learn magic and a better sense=better magic wouldn't going around with the Sight always open make you a better mage. Now you might go insane, but if you found a way around that or were able to shape the insanity in a direction you wanted... well a normal person with one too many shots of Three Eye could become a mighty wizard. Or at least a weak, but highly sensitive wizard. (Molly.) Hell, what if you came up with a toned down version?

On a similar note: spending time around magic can make you more magical and crap. What if you lived in the Nevernever. Plus its easier to do magic and sense magic IIRC, since its... well a realm of pure magic. And you can distort time there.

Wouldn't it just be awful if team evil was raising an army of Three Eye powered super wizards?

[Mauve Shirt]

That would explain where all the three-eye withdrawal victims may have gone...

[lord_khaine]

Also, there was the mid-coitus heart rip in the start of the book. Harry does take a bit of time to note the pose of the bodies in clinical detail.

Well yeah.. having your heart ripped out is a little brutal.. but again.. its not something we directly "see".. only something we get the aftereffects off.


Interesting Crackpot Theory. I will raise you this crackpot theory.
If you need a magical sense to learn magic and a better sense=better magic wouldn't going around with the Sight always open make you a better mage. Now you might go insane, but if you found a way around that or were able to shape the insanity in a direction you wanted... well a normal person with one too many shots of Three Eye could become a mighty wizard. Or at least a weak, but highly sensitive wizard. (Molly.) Hell, what if you came up with a toned down version?

Unfortunately i would say Harry and Molly are direct proof of that better sense not being = better magic.. or at least not stronger magic.

[Gnome Alone]

Here's a question I've been mulling around: which novel of the series is actually the best one to start with? I personally read Fool Moon first, then the rest of them in order (except I read Side Jobs between Death Masks and Blood Rites, so hey, spoiler alert galore and all.)

But I liked it from the get-go. I am asking because I want to get my brother to read some of them so we can nerd out.

Honestly, it's a little weird that I'm the one who's into them cuz he's got like way more geek cred than I and it's usually him that introduces me to such. He was surprised that I had heard of Mistborn on my own, that kind of thing.

So unforgiving sequentalist Teutonic logic and all would say "Begin at the beginning, you worthless fool!!" with Storm Front, but both Storm Front and Fool Moon have problems with not being all that good, really.

I personally felt like things picked up quite a bit with Grave Peril and then got really good with Death Masks. So I'm thinking Death Masks. It would have the spoiler about Susan but not about Thomas, Which I figure is kind of a big deal, considering how "Little Orphan Harry" the first few books get. Anyways, thoughts?

[Landis963]

Here's a question I've been mulling around: which novel of the series is actually the best one to start with? I personally read Fool Moon first, then the rest of them in order (except I read Side Jobs between Death Masks and Blood Rites, so hey, spoiler alert galore and all.)

But I liked it from the get-go. I am asking because I want to get my brother to read some of them so we can nerd out.

Honestly, it's a little weird that I'm the one who's into them cuz he's got like way more geek cred than I and it's usually him that introduces me to such. He was surprised that I had heard of Mistborn on my own, that kind of thing.

So unforgiving sequentalist Teutonic logic and all would say "Begin at the beginning, you worthless fool!!" with Storm Front, but both Storm Front and Fool Moon have problems with not being all that good, really.

I personally felt like things picked up quite a bit with Grave Peril and then got really good with Death Masks. So I'm thinking Death Masks. It would have the spoiler about Susan but not about Thomas, Which I figure is kind of a big deal, considering how "Little Orphan Harry" the first few books get. Anyways, thoughts?

I'd start with Grave Peril, or just skip over Fool Moon. Fool Moon is th most annoyingly bad of that first section, IMO, and can easily be discarded.

[Socratov]

Here's a question I've been mulling around: which novel of the series is actually the best one to start with? I personally read Fool Moon first, then the rest of them in order (except I read Side Jobs between Death Masks and Blood Rites, so hey, spoiler alert galore and all.)

But I liked it from the get-go. I am asking because I want to get my brother to read some of them so we can nerd out.

Honestly, it's a little weird that I'm the one who's into them cuz he's got like way more geek cred than I and it's usually him that introduces me to such. He was surprised that I had heard of Mistborn on my own, that kind of thing.

So unforgiving sequentalist Teutonic logic and all would say "Begin at the beginning, you worthless fool!!" with Storm Front, but both Storm Front and Fool Moon have problems with not being all that good, really.

I personally felt like things picked up quite a bit with Grave Peril and then got really good with Death Masks. So I'm thinking Death Masks. It would have the spoiler about Susan but not about Thomas, Which I figure is kind of a big deal, considering how "Little Orphan Harry" the first few books get. Anyways, thoughts?

maybe. I'd still be one of those teutonic people saying that the beginning is the best place to start since you'll get a more gradual feel for the magic used. Then again, if we were talking favourites, none of the other books have managed to beat Dead Beat and not only because of Sue (although she is a major factor in why the book is so great).

[Soras Teva Gee]

I think there's a difference between not being as good and actually being bad. I got into the series a little before Proven Guilty and I didn't need anyone telling me about Dead Beat to keep reading. No the first three are a big step down, but heck I was stirred enough to throw down for another paperback.

Also at a meta-level a fair bit of appreciating the series is seeing Mr Butcher mature as an author. So there is a greater reason then just properly following the plot threads for going in order. Plus one of the series strengths I think is building on itself, particular in things like character relationships. How are you supposed to appreciate the scene where Harry predicting he's about to be slugged and arrested, and Murphy says she damn well should, without have read the early books that happened in.

And picking a point to say "this is when they became worth reading" to me smacks of a certain needless elitism and overanalysis. Going down that path sorta compells me to point out are we actually going to put forward the Dresden Files as the proverbial "good literature" because while they've come a long way from that rather painful story with Murphy and the troll in Side Jobs... well if I really wanted to I could still tear the entire series to shreds. So to me that's a big false premise.

So yeah read the whole damn thing, if you can't survive the first 2-3 books I'd worry you have bad expectations and/or be coming in expecting some life changing transcendent work because of fan gushing about how awesome it is.

[Gnome Alone]

I don't feel like it's needless elitism just to think that the first two are a little clunky and that the fifth one is where the truly awesome stuff kicks in.

That's what I meant anyway.

Literarily, well... I will actually stand by the Dresden Files as having a lot to say about the value of family and community and doing the right thing in spite of ferocious opposition. Granted, what it has to say is not terribly original, but I don't care; and it's no, say, Earthsea cycle, but what is?

I just want my slightly-more-geeky-than-me hermano to like it without shrugging and going, "Eh." You raise a valid point, though, in that the gap is not all that large and that someone who does not care for Storm Front or Fool Moon at all is unlikely to find Dead Beat or White Night all that much better. Plus, dude got me to read the first two Sword of Truth books, so, a) barf, and b) he kinda owes me one, so "hey, read Storm Front already" it is.

EDIT: Come to think of it, every negative review of the Dresden Files that I've read seems to hang on either: *Look at this author photo! Nerd! What is this, porn for the Trench Coat Mafia?!, or *vile Marcusean identity politics. How dare the main character be both Caucasian and male and not apologize for it, or *derivative; boring; over it. None of which I find to be particularly compelling arguments, except perhaps the last, but to each his own and such.

[Feytalist]

I've said this before and I'll say it again: I would not have minded if he had continued writing in the style of Storm Front and Fool Moon. I mean; noir-y detective stories with magic? What's not to love. You don't need a huge interconnected 'verse hovering in the background. (Okay, so the 'verse is awesome. But still...)

So: Begin at the beginning. You worthless fool. :smallbiggrin:

[Valwyn]

Personally, I started reading Storm Front and kept going in order. If the reader is too picky, I'd say to start at Grave Peril, which is when the plot kicks in and when some of the most important members of the cast are introduced (Leah, Michael, Thomas, Justine, Ortega). Plus, Bianca's masquerade is full of hints. The only down side is when things from the first two books show up (Bianca's revenge, Billy and the werewolves, Morgan).

Speaking from things from older books, any ideas on who Kumori (necromancer girl who wants immortality for everyone) might be? Jim said in an interview that some people had guessed who she was, though he never confirmed it in public.

[Gnome Alone]

Hermione Granger.

[Eldan]

Time-travelling Molly? It's a theory I've heard before.

[Rakaydos]

Personally, I started reading Storm Front and kept going in order. If the reader is too picky, I'd say to start at Grave Peril, which is when the plot kicks in and when some of the most important members of the cast are introduced (Leah, Michael, Thomas, Justine, Ortega). Plus, Bianca's masquerade is full of hints. The only down side is when things from the first two books show up (Bianca's revenge, Billy and the werewolves, Morgan).

Speaking from things from older books, any ideas on who Kumori (necromancer girl who wants immortality for everyone) might be? Jim said in an interview that some people had guessed who she was, though he never confirmed it in public.

Time Traveling spirit of alternate-timeline Elane who made a body for herself (and alternate timeline Justin) the same way Corpstaker was trying to.
Alternate timeline Harry instead chose to set up shop in harry's head, as harry's black-wearing "subconcius." (so were the others, in their respective bodies, but teenage Harry killed them)

[The Glyphstone]

Amanda Beckitt!:smallsmile:

[Gnome Alone]

"Hold on, I gotta go pretend to be in a coma to help Marcone have a conscience."

[The Glyphstone]

"Hold on, I gotta go pretend to be in a coma to help Marcone have a conscience."

I was going to say that we don't know if the Shroud worked - we first met Kumori two books after Death Masks, and it'd explain her immortality fetish if she was healed by an artifact of divine resurrection, but then I remembered Marcone's conversation with Harry in Small Favors. Damn.:smallfrown:

[Valwyn]

My best guess would be Luciozzi, who was nominated for the Senior Council but was on a sabatical during the events of Summer Knight (which comes after Grave Peril and Bianca's ball). Problem is, we don't know if Luciozzi is a man or a woman, though I guess that means he could be Cowl, if he turns out to be a man.

I like the idea of Amanda better, but I'm not sure how likely that is. Same with time travel. If she really is from the future, she would have known the ritual was going to fail.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

So, I'm on Dead Beat right now. It's really interesting to reread Harry's conversation with Shiela (and that entire scene), knowing who she actually is. Butcher was very careful with character interactions.

[Rakaydos]

I like the idea of Amanda better, but I'm not sure how likely that is. Same with time travel. If she really is from the future, she would have known the ritual was going to fail.
Except the timeline CAN be changed, if you can overome historical inertia. Which is why Cowl, Kumori, and BlackDresden sent back only their ghosts/souls, so the power requirement is lowered AND they could use their death curses to power it.

[Valwyn]

I never liked time travel. Never made too much sense to me.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

Just had a hum-dinger of a line mentioned in Dead Beat that I'd forgotten about--Gard says that it was Dresden's fate to "die in that alley" against the Corpsetaker/Ghoul ambush where he gets ninja stars to the leg.

Huh.

(And of course, gotta love Marcone's line about "spitting in the face of destiny".)

[Gnome Alone]

Y'know, I don't think Kumori is time-travelling Molly. It's not because I really don't want her to be Molly, although that would really suck. I doubt K=M because I don't think Molly's just gonna get to shrug off being the Winter Lady to go time-hoppin' and Dresden-killin'.

But: if she is time-travelling Molly, it would kinda make sense for her to go back to right before the events of Proven Guilty so she could kill Harry and allow herself to go full warlock without his interference.

EDIT: Uh, somehow I read Corpsetaker as Kumori while skimming the previous post, and now mine makes even less sense, but I'm leaving it up because it's sort of relevant, plus I never pass up an opportunity to make myself look stupid.

[Soras Teva Gee]

I never liked time travel. Never made too much sense to me.

The trick to time travel is realizing that this quote:

"People assume that time is a strict progression of cause to effect, but actually — from a non-linear, non-subjective viewpoint — it's more like a big ball of wibbly-wobbly... timey-wimey... stuff." -The Doctor.

Is actually an explanation so very brilliant that it borders on the sublime level of epiphany.


Just had a hum-dinger of a line mentioned in Dead Beat that I'd forgotten about--Gard says that it was Dresden's fate to "die in that alley" against the Corpsetaker/Ghoul ambush where he gets ninja stars to the leg.

Huh.

(And of course, gotta love Marcone's line about "spitting in the face of destiny".)

What about it?

While interesting over the long term I've kinda realized Gard just ain't high enough up the ladder cosmically speaking to really be making those kinds of pronouncements, I don't care who she works for. Its probably just a lot less impressive to say "Well unless drastic actions are taken the chances of death will be exceptionally high" or the like.

[Philistine]

Valkyrie. Chooser of the Slain.

So yeah, she probably does have the rank to make that call. Because making that call is more or less her entire purpose for existing.

[The Glyphstone]

Valkyrie. Chooser of the Slain.

So yeah, she probably does have the rank to make that call. Because making that call is more or less her entire purpose for existing.

That's what I was thinking.

[Soras Teva Gee]

Why do people keep making the exact argument I've already considered in advance and the disregarding of it is why I hold the opinion I do?

I knew that, and that's why I said what I said.

Seriously its not that she doesn't have any insight in that direction, but she's what 0-2 against now onscreen? That's pretty compelling evidence that whatever "fate" she's cluing in on is less then omniscient and inescapable. She can make pronouncements all she wants... but it has yet to actually be so. Which exactly how it should be when even Mr Sunshine has had some curve balls thrown his way you ask me. And entirely in keeping with the Dresdenverse's underlying themes.

I simply can't read great cosmic portents from so minor a figure in the grand scheme of things until she actually has the decency to be right more.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

Irregardless of her hierarchy in the cosmic scheme, I'm pretty sure this is something that transcends power tier. It's who she is. That's keyed right into the source mythology. It's not that Gard is faulty in her perception of Fate, it's that Fate itself isn't a perfect system, for whatever reason.

...well, I guess that'd be Free Will, given the tenor of the series.

She follows it up, too, with a line about "there will be consequences". So maybe it's totally possible to duck your fate, but not without something taking its place. That hasn't been very clearly explored, though.

As for her two instances...the first time, it was because she herself was commanded to countermand Fate by intervening. (Otherwise, no doubt she was supposed to escort Harry to the hereafter or something.) The second time, it's because Harry willfully intervenes, knowing what's coming.

So you can't accidentally override Fate; you have to know it's coming. Gard knew because that's her schtick--and that's why she can be ordered to defy it. Harry knew because he instinctively saw Gard fixating on Michael, and so he intervened.

[Philistine]

Why do people keep making the exact argument I've already considered in advance and the disregarding of it is why I hold the opinion I do?

I knew that, and that's why I said what I said.
Because you've got to do more than just announce your opinion, if you're trying to convince other people of its correctness.


Seriously its not that she doesn't have any insight in that direction, but she's what 0-2 against now onscreen? That's pretty compelling evidence that whatever "fate" she's cluing in on is less then omniscient and inescapable. She can make pronouncements all she wants... but it has yet to actually be so. Which exactly how it should be when even Mr Sunshine has had some curve balls thrown his way you ask me. And entirely in keeping with the Dresdenverse's underlying themes.

I simply can't read great cosmic portents from so minor a figure in the grand scheme of things until she actually has the decency to be right more.
And this is a start, but not enough. Apart from what CG has pointed out, the fact that It IS Her Job To Know EXACTLY These Things is what makes the survival of the chosen victims meaningful - if she were just issuing dire pronouncements from her rectal orifice, as you're positing, then none of it would matter.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

I really wouldn't be so convinced of it if Valkyries weren't inextricably intertwined with the fate of the dead, just like incubi/succubi are inextricably intertwined with lust, like the Fae are crucially linked up with promises and cunning wordcraft, or like fallen angels are always involved with temptation. It's part of the core of their identity.

I posit that we're seeing the exceptions that prove the rule. (And although it'd be awesome to see a scene where she does fulfill her duty, it's more likely that we see scenes of people ducking their appointed fate. The warriors who go to their rest, escorted by the Valkyries, aren't the ones whose stories we're following.)

[The Glyphstone]

I really wouldn't be so convinced of it if Valkyries weren't inextricably intertwined with the fate of the dead, just like incubi/succubi are inextricably intertwined with lust, like the Fae are crucially linked up with promises and cunning wordcraft, or like fallen angels are always involved with temptation. It's part of the core of their identity.

I posit that we're seeing the exceptions that prove the rule. (And although it'd be awesome to see a scene where she does fulfill her duty, it's more likely that we see scenes of people ducking their appointed fate. The warriors who go to their rest, escorted by the Valkyries, aren't the ones whose stories we're following.)

We almost saw one in Ghost Story with Forthill, courtesy of Gard's Catholic counterpart.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

Another lovely tidbit I noticed during my reading: Peabody compiled the Erlking book!

[The Glyphstone]

Another lovely tidbit I noticed during my reading: Peabody compiled the Erlking book!

"German is an untidy language.":smallbiggrin:

[Eldan]

"German is an untidy language.":smallbiggrin:

He obviously has no idea. We have things like cases and genders and declinations and properly conjugated verbs. It's far more precise than English. Not always logical (hell no), but at least people know what everyone is talking about.

[The Glyphstone]

He obviously has no idea. We have things like cases and genders and declinations and properly conjugated verbs. It's far more precise than English. Not always logical (hell no), but at least people know what everyone is talking about.

And as a bonus, you sound angry about everything all the time.

[lord_khaine]

Quote Originally Posted by The Glyphstone View Post
"German is an untidy language."

He obviously has no idea. We have things like cases and genders and declinations and properly conjugated verbs. It's far more precise than English. Not always logical (hell no), but at least people know what everyone is talking about.

Yeah.. seriously.. this is one of the most stupid things said in the entire serie, and it sounds rather worse when comming from someone who seems to be mainly speaking english.

It seems rather clear the author itself does not speak german at all.. or that Peabody were speaking out of his ass.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

I forget, what's his implied experience with German? It's quite possible that, not having an exhaustive knowledge, he thinks that what he's seen of it is horridly untidy. Or maybe he just has severe personal bias and denial.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

Another possibility is that he's comparing German to Latin, not English, given that the Council does most of their work in Latin. In that case, German being "untidy" to someone who likes Latin's fussiness and complexity makes sense--not to mention that some of the Erlking material is probably very very old, so he might be working with two or three different archaic dialects of German compared to the nice, dead, unchanging Latin he's used to.

[Eldan]

And as a bonus, you sound angry about everything all the time.

Oh no, that cliché again. That's, like, five dialects out of hundreds. I'm not even sure it's possible to sound angry in Swabian or Bernese.

[datalaughing]

The official replica of Harry's necklace (http://badalijewelry.com/Harry-Dresden-s-Pentacle-Necklace.html) is on sale this month. So tempting. Though back in February the company tweeted that they were planning on releasing a version with the red gem in the middle "soon." So this sale might be the precursor to that, and maybe I should hold off.

[Gnome Alone]

I thought that whole "German is an untidy language" thing was a tongue-in-cheek bit about how Jim Butcher made the title of the Erlking book wrong, and upon being thus informed, stuck that statement in Peabody's mouth. Not that it doesn't make sense; jackass-y, inaccurate statement for a jackass character. But I think it's just supposed to be a wink to the portion of the audience that cares. "I don't speak German. Sorry guys, WONH WONH WONHHH."

[Aidan305]

Just thought I'd leave this (http://www.evilhat.com/home/dresden-lives/) here.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

Just thought I'd leave this (http://www.evilhat.com/home/dresden-lives/) here.
I don't normally LARP, but I'm curious about this one.

Also, reading Proven Guilty right now...and wow. This is my first reread of the series. It's very interesting to read through Maeve's first appearance in this book (showing up at Accorded Neutral Ground upon Lily's summons), knowing how Cold Days plays out. It's very obvious how she's lying through her teeth, thanks to Nemesis...and she even calls it a contagion!

[Soras Teva Gee]

If the game encorporates Rock-Paper-Scissors as a core mechanic it would be very full circle.

[lord_khaine]

Moving on to a new subject, namely the "parasite" growing in Harry's head.

It does sound a lot like this is borrowing from a myth regarding Zeus and Athene, but i came to think about that there were proberly some aspects of the situation that had been overlooked.

Namely that the entity would almost certainly need to be made of spirit or Harry would be suffering from brain damage already, and that DR's limited vocabulay were going to mean we had a limited understanding of the situation.

Because if its a spirit being, then who are to say it bursting from Harry's unusually thick skull is going to be fatal?

[Valwyn]

I don't think I know that myth. Does it have a name?

I always thought the parasite was some sort of mental construct implanted into him (like the ones he describes in Ghost Story), which would be why Demonreach suggested he should get Molly's help.

I don't remember, did Harry always have his headaches or did they appear after a certain point in the series?

[Landis963]

I don't think I know that myth. Does it have a name?

The Zeus/Athene myth is essentially (the most agreed-upon version of) Athene's origin story. Zeus was playing a game with his latest mistress, Metis the Titan. Your standard "morph forms to beat the other" duel, until Metis decided for whatever reason to morph a fly. At which point Zeus inhaled and swallowed her. (Just as planned; this is yet another contingency plan to thwart the "your son will overthrow you" prophecy/general pattern) She somehow got from his gullet to his brain, where she could continue to advise him (mainly because she was apparently the anthropomorphic personification of Prudence, which begs the question of why she decided to morph fly in the first place). Fast-forward a few months, and Metis has suddenly gotten very busy in Zeus' noggin; weaving clothes and forging something for the child. The hammer blows (how did she get a working forge in Zeus' head? Magic!) gave the king of the gods a splitting headache, so Hephaestus offered to make the metaphor literal in the hopes of relieving the pain. Zeus nodded or did something similar to consent to operation "Cut it out" (Note that he has not, nor has ever been, the personification of Prudence), Hephaestus struck Zeus on the head, the skull split open, and out sprang Athene, fully grown, clothed, and already with her trademark helm and spear. (Zeus got better.)

[Valwyn]

The Zeus/Athene myth is essentially (the most agreed-upon version of) Athene's origin story. Zeus was playing a game with his latest mistress, Metis the Titan. Your standard "morph forms to beat the other" duel, until Metis decided for whatever reason to morph a fly. At which point Zeus inhaled and swallowed her. (Just as planned; this is yet another contingency plan to thwart the "your son will overthrow you" prophecy/general pattern) She somehow got from his gullet to his brain, where she could continue to advise him (mainly because she was apparently the anthropomorphic personification of Prudence, which begs the question of why she decided to morph fly in the first place). Fast-forward a few months, and Metis has suddenly gotten very busy in Zeus' noggin; weaving clothes and forging something for the child. The hammer blows (how did she get a working forge in Zeus' head? Magic!) gave the king of the gods a splitting headache, so Hephaestus offered to make the metaphor literal in the hopes of relieving the pain. Zeus nodded or did something similar to consent to operation "Cut it out" (Note that he has not, nor has ever been, the personification of Prudence), Hephaestus struck Zeus on the head, the skull split open, and out sprang Athene, fully grown, clothed, and already with her trademark helm and spear. (Zeus got better.)

That's a good myth. I like it. :smallbiggrin: (Looks like the Greeks were better at philosophy than biology. :smalltongue:)

That does sort of sound like Harry's headaches. Metis reminds me a bit of Lash. Was Lash erased/killed or just unable to communicate?

[lord_khaine]

We directly have WOJ on that Lash were active in Ghost story, and there are rather general agreement on her being the parasite.

[Kuulvheysoon]

We directly have WOJ on that Lash were active in Ghost story, and there are rather general agreement on her being the parasite.

Wait, really? This is the first that I've heard of that. Care to elaborate?

[Mauve Shirt]

Can't remember where, and I'm not on a device that would allow me to easily find it, but both Lash and Lasciel were in Ghost Story and as far as I know the prevailing theory is that Lash was the parasite, and Lasciel was the shadow that drove Harry to his death.

[T-O-E]

The Zeus/Athene myth is essentially (the most agreed-upon version of) Athene's origin story. Zeus was playing a game with his latest mistress, Metis the Titan. Your standard "morph forms to beat the other" duel, until Metis decided for whatever reason to morph a fly. At which point Zeus inhaled and swallowed her. (Just as planned; this is yet another contingency plan to thwart the "your son will overthrow you" prophecy/general pattern) She somehow got from his gullet to his brain, where she could continue to advise him (mainly because she was apparently the anthropomorphic personification of Prudence, which begs the question of why she decided to morph fly in the first place). Fast-forward a few months, and Metis has suddenly gotten very busy in Zeus' noggin; weaving clothes and forging something for the child. The hammer blows (how did she get a working forge in Zeus' head? Magic!) gave the king of the gods a splitting headache, so Hephaestus offered to make the metaphor literal in the hopes of relieving the pain. Zeus nodded or did something similar to consent to operation "Cut it out" (Note that he has not, nor has ever been, the personification of Prudence), Hephaestus struck Zeus on the head, the skull split open, and out sprang Athene, fully grown, clothed, and already with her trademark helm and spear. (Zeus got better.)

Milton borrowed this for Paradise Lost when he had the feminine personification of Sin spring out of Lucfer's head. Its interesting, considering the angel/demon thing.

[Lamech]

Presumably Lash was restored when Mab healed Dresden's never damage.

[Dragonus45]

Presumably Lash was restored when Mab healed Dresden's never damage.

The headaches predate that.

[Gnome Alone]

Can't remember where, and I'm not on a device that would allow me to easily find it, but both Lash and Lasciel were in Ghost Story and as far as I know the prevailing theory is that Lash was the parasite, and Lasciel was the shadow that drove Harry to his death.

I've heard Lash as the parasite a lot. But Lasciel as the one that pushed Harry to attemtping suicide is a new one for me. That is expletive-ing creepy. Unable to speak to him during his refusal to succumb to her shadow, she returns and attempts to quietly dispatch him. Gah.

I've always thought that the Denarians and the Fallen make for the series' coolest, uh, mechanic, to borrow a roleplaying term.

[Mauve Shirt]

I've always thought that the Denarians and the Fallen make for the series' coolest, uh, mechanic, to borrow a roleplaying term.

Once my character basically gave up and started working in concert with her Denarian, I started having a lot more fun. That's probably a bad sign. :smallbiggrin:

But I can turn into flesh-eating beetles! Tessa gave me a bug-five!

[datalaughing]

I don't remember, did Harry always have his headaches or did they appear after a certain point in the series?

I believe the first time we get a mention of Harry's headaches is in Turn Coat. He mentions just a few paragraphs in that he's got a horrible headache, and when Butters shows up we find out that he's been getting them for a while. He even tried an MRI, which subsequently caught on fire.

You know, I wonder if Harry could sue the hospital for a thing like that. I mean, they couldn't prove that it was his fault in any way without calling it magic. So he could claim that their machine messed up and nearly killed him. Not that Harry would do something like that, but I wonder if it would work.

[Lamech]

I believe the first time we get a mention of Harry's headaches is in Turn Coat. He mentions just a few paragraphs in that he's got a horrible headache, and when Butters shows up we find out that he's been getting them for a while. He even tried an MRI, which subsequently caught on fire.

You know, I wonder if Harry could sue the hospital for a thing like that. I mean, they couldn't prove that it was his fault in any way without calling it magic. So he could claim that their machine messed up and nearly killed him. Not that Harry would do something like that, but I wonder if it would work.
He'd have to go into court and stuff. All that tech? Not gonna end well. He could probably get a fancy settlement though.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

I bet the Council doesn't look too kindly on wizards who exploit mortals like that, though. It doesn't break the Laws, but...

[Rakaydos]

I believe the first time we get a mention of Harry's headaches is in Turn Coat. He mentions just a few paragraphs in that he's got a horrible headache, and when Butters shows up we find out that he's been getting them for a while. He even tried an MRI, which subsequently caught on fire.

Didnt Harry get the Magic of Creation (soulfire) a book or two before that?

[Lamech]

He got it at book ten... Maybe its Lash growing into a full fledged Angel!

[datalaughing]

Didnt Harry get the Magic of Creation (soulfire) a book or two before that?

That's a good point. Lash "dies" in book 9, Harry gets soulfire during book 10 and sometime between 10 and 11 the headaches begin.

[Gnome Alone]

Once my character basically gave up and started working in concert with her Denarian, I started having a lot more fun. That's probably a bad sign. :smallbiggrin:

But I can turn into flesh-eating beetles! Tessa gave me a bug-five!

That is so cool. I mean, no, renounce the coin and your power, evil, it's so bad... Yeah, flesh-eating beetle swarm though. And workplace camaraderie 'n all.

[Valwyn]

I've heard a theory that it was Lucifer himself who lied to Harry, which would explain why Uriel, another archangel, was the one to even the odds rather than a lower ranking angel or someone like Jack or Carmichael (and why even Uriel couldn't dispel the shadow around the liar completly). The symmetry is nice, though it would be more meaningful if it had been faeries or other beings who like it (not sure if angels do).

[datalaughing]

EDIT: I should mention that, according to Jim's people, all the stuff in this trailer is legit Skin Game plot stuff. So be warned that it could be considered very spoilery. At the same time, it's a trailer. So it's spoilery in the way that movie trailers are spoilery. Not sure if that counts.

So, yeah, after the this book trailer (http://io9.com/fan-made-trailer-for-jim-butchers-next-dresden-files-bo-1574192491) I just, I can't even, WHY ARE ALL THESE DAYS STANDING IN BETWEEN ME AND THIS BOOK!?!?

[The Glyphstone]

That is awesome.

Though I'm pretty sure that was Binder and his 'lads' when they showed The Summoner. Do the movie-makers know something we don't, or was Binder's return confirmed somewhere? Likewise for the other 'team-mates' besides Murphy.

[datalaughing]

From what they staff is saying over at the Jim Butcher forums, the people behind the video got ARCs (advance copies of the book). So it's all accurate. I think it's almost certainly Binder in the trailer. Anna Valmont the surviving thief from the group Marcone hired to steal the shroud back in book 5 is a popular candidate for the "Thief" from the trailer, and apparently Word of Jim says that a skinwalker will appear in the book. So that's a popular theory about who/what the "Imposter" is.

[The Glyphstone]

I wonder who the Firecaller is.

And is that Michael at the end taking up his sword again? I can't think of any other big burly lumberjack-looking man who would be speaking kindly to Harry and wielding a magic sword...sure, Michael has a son who is old enough, but Daniel doesn't like Harry.

[datalaughing]

Gotta be Michael. There's a list of credits for that video posted when they put it on Jim's new page that has both Michael and Butters appearing in there somewhere.

[The Glyphstone]

It is kinda weird 'seeing' the characters, I gotta admit. At first I didn't recognize Murphy...thought she was Elaine in a flashback, then Molly, then realized who that was. I forget she's constantly described as really short. Mab looks like bad CGI though - better in the penthouse with Nick.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

I wonder who the Firecaller is.

And is that Michael at the end taking up his sword again? I can't think of any other big burly lumberjack-looking man who would be speaking kindly to Harry and wielding a magic sword...sure, Michael has a son who is old enough, but Daniel doesn't like Harry.
Indeed it is. I've been following the group for a while, and that's definitely their actor for Michael.

Really stoked to see what they put together! They're still amateurs, but very ambitious and dedicated amateurs! And I was downright shocked (and then in retrospect not surprised) to realize that they'd had a sneak peek at the book. :smallbiggrin:

The group also has a lot of other characters represented (https://www.facebook.com/DresdenFilesFanFilming); they've done a few very short shots of different stuff. Seeing all the photos is my favorite bit. (Oh, and their Ebenezer is great.)

[Valwyn]

Best scene in the trailer:


Harry: I-is that a bazooka? :smalleek:
Murphy: *nods* :smallamused:
Harry: Can- can I load it? *reaches for it* :smalltongue:
Murphy: *slaps hand* No. :smallyuk:

[Gnome Alone]

Wow, that is really well-cast. Although I always picture Dresden a little more Elliot Smith-ish, but that's just personal interpretation. Also Mab is apparently, uh, Russian? But Murphy, Michael Carpenter and Nicodemus are like ridiculously spot-on.

[datalaughing]

I used to picture Harry kind of like Paul Blackthorne because I saw the series before reading the books, but I think the comics have changed my mental image of the character. I was reading somewhere that Mab's accent in the video may be due to the fact that James Marsters gives her an accent in the audio books. Apparently he went for Lithuanian or something like that when he did the books, possibly just to give her a unique sound among all the other female fae characters.

[Gnome Alone]

Ok, that makes more sense. I've listened to a few of the audiobooks, but none with Mab in them. I'm willing to cut people a lot of slack in representing characters that are supposed to be inhumanly beautiful and otherworldly, since it's, y'know, by definition impossible to find actors like that.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

I'm currently in the midst of Changes, and given Sanya's reaction to Mab (the scene where Sanya meets Toot), I think it makes a lot of sense for Mab to have Russian affiliation. She seems to be very deeply engrained in his mythic experience.

Plus, it's high time we stopped using British accents for everything. :smallbiggrin:

[Socratov]

I'm currently in the midst of Changes, and given Sanya's reaction to Mab (the scene where Sanya meets Toot), I think it makes a lot of sense for Mab to have Russian affiliation. She seems to be very deeply engrained in his mythic experience.

Plus, it's high time we stopped using British accents for everything. :smallbiggrin:

no it's not. If any accent is worth (over)using it's a british accent :smallamused:

[Eldan]

It's been a while since I read Summer Knight, but I do vaguely remember that Mrs. Sumerset, at least, was mentioned to have a strange accent. Possibly even Eastern European.

Edit: foudn the quote:

"I believe you are late," she replied. Sommerset had a voice like her outfit-rich, suggestive, cultured. Her
English had an accent I couldn't place. Maybe European. Definitely interesting.

[Anderlith]

I prefer to think of
Murphy as Kristen Bell (She has the height, the spunk & the cute button nose)
Micheal as Misha Colins (Shouldn't need an explanation but seriously, he has the right blue eyes & black hair & body type)
Bob as James Marsters or John Hurt/Anthony Stewart-Head
& Harry as Timothy Olyphant or James Marsters

[Eldan]

Don't know half of those people off-hand, but...

Bob: don't know. For me, he has a young voice. So no Hurt or Head. For all his ancient-spirit-of-intellect-ness, I'd give him a snarky teenager voice.

James Marsters... he could do any of the voices, really. The audiobooks prove that (even if I find his Toot-toot terribly annoying). He is the voice of Harry for me. But he doesn't have the looks to play him. As Thomas, maybe? I don't know. Women do find him attractive, right?

[Valwyn]

Speaking of casting the characters, what do you think of these? (Check the description)

Storm Front (http://wertmanwilliam.deviantart.com/art/DF-Storm-Front-poster-color-430487697)
Fool Moon (http://wertmanwilliam.deviantart.com/art/DF-Fool-Moon-poster-color-433101761)
Grave Peril (http://wertmanwilliam.deviantart.com/art/DF-Grave-Peril-poster-color-436978055)
Summer Knight (http://wertmanwilliam.deviantart.com/art/DF-Summer-Knight-poster-colors-447386001?q=) (he didn't include Meryl, who I think was more important than Lily in the story, but oh well.)

[CarpeGuitarrem]

Micheal as Misha Colins (Shouldn't need an explanation but seriously, he has the right blue eyes & black hair & body type)
Oh goodness no. From every Supernatural still or excerpt with Castiel that I've seen, Misha is not nearly enough on the big, strong, hefty side.

Too scrawny; no shoulders (http://resources0.news.com.au/images/2012/05/25/1226366/846824-misha-collins.jpg) :smallwink:

Michael needs to be somebody massively physically imposing.

@Valwyn's links...not sure about some of the choices (Scarlett Johanssen doesn't seem inhuman enough to be Lea, and I thought Marcone was supposed to be stocky and, well, big.), but Bryan Cranston as Lloyd Slate? Sold. The only downside is that Lloyd doesn't have a major part in the books.

On a totally different note: almost done with Changes. Things I'd forgotten: how awesome it is to see Murph wielding Fidelacchius against the Red Court. !!!!!!!!!!

[Eldan]

Oooh. In my head, I cast Bryan Cranston as Donald Morgan, but Slate works too. He might be a bit wasted in that role, though. Slate never actually did that much.

I'd probably cast Monica Belluci as either a fey or a vampire.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

Oooh. In my head, I cast Bryan Cranston as Donald Morgan, but Slate works too. He might be a bit wasted in that role, though. Slate never actually did that much.
I am 100% in favor of Cranston-as-Morgan, just because of Slate's general trait of Sir-Not-Appearing-In-This-Book.

I'd probably cast Monica Belluci as either a fey or a vampire.
Oooooooooh. The moment I looked up the picture, I thought "Susan". Bianca, too.

[Valwyn]

I was surprised when I read that the artist had casted Daniel Radcliffe as Billy. They're both on the short side, so that's fine, but Billy starts as chubby/fat and ends up muscular, while Dan has always been on the thin side.

Any idea on who could play the Knights of the Cross? I think Michael might be easier to cast than Shiro or Sanya.

[Landis963]

I
Any idea on who could play the Knights of the Cross? I think Michael might be easier to cast than Shiro or Sanya.

Shiro: Ken Watanabe.
Sanya: Anyone who can do a good enough Russian accent to fool an audience. Race is optional.
Michael: there's lots of candidates. Possibly Clooney. Anyone old enough to play Molly's father.

[Valwyn]

Isn't Shiro supposed to be old? I guess they could age him up with make up.

I don't know about Clooney. Michael is supposed to be sort of a lumberjack, at least that's the feeling I get (hooray, stereotypes). He could certainly play the role, though.

I was looking through a list of tall people while looking for someone to play Harry and found someone that might fit Sanya, at least looks-wise. I've never seen Henry Simmons (http://media-cache-ec0.pinimg.com/236x/ff/ed/d0/ffedd06f2df232799e0b228f68d4c40d.jpg) act or heard him speak, but maybe he could work, if he can pull off the accent.

Josh Duhamel (https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/378800000447701937/55716aa62148e52df723990d7bcd4aa8.jpeg) might work for Harry.

Mind you, I don't watch a lot of movies/shows and I'm not from the US, so I'm not familiar with a lot of actors or their style/voices.

[The Glyphstone]

My first thought was Ken as well, but he's not old enough for Shiro. Though I suppose anyone actually Shiro's age wouldn't be able to do Shiro's stunts, to Watanabe in old-guy makeup is probably workable.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

That guy from Winter Soldier, he'd make a great Sanya, I think. Provided he could Russian Accent, but hey, acting! (And honestly, since there aren't that many minorities in the DF cast to begin with, I don't see why I wouldn't want someone who looked like Book!Sanya...hey, we could even consider alternate races for a few different characters, like the great-looking Morgan from the TV series. If Idris Elba can be a Viking, anything goes in the Dresdenverse except where explicitly contradicted. :smallbiggrin: )

[lord_khaine]

I honestly though the Morgan from the tv-series were awfull, he had gotten to a point where they might as well have named the character something else, because the name and being a warden was just about the only thing they had in common.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

Mileage may vary, I guess.

At any rate, Sanya's probably the one character who can least afford to have ethnicity changed, because it was integral to his backstory.

[The Glyphstone]

Unless they change his backstory. The core essential elements are easy to build around (outsider from society, alone, seduced and corrupted by Tessa), the specific place and reason for the alienation could be mutable. I hope they wouldn't though.

[Dragonus45]

Unless they change his backstory. The core essential elements are easy to build around (outsider from society, alone, seduced and corrupted by Tessa), the specific place and reason for the alienation could be mutable. I hope they wouldn't though.

It would still feel way to strange. Plus they really don't want the kind of trouble that comes with making a black character into a white one when adapting something, they could just fire a few shots into each others knee caps and save themselves a lot of pain.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

Sorry, didn't mean to touch that all off. (It was just weird seeing an earlier poster state "Race is optional" next to Sanya exclusively, especially because Sanya's ethnicity is less optional than for the other characters.)

[Dragonus45]

Sorry, didn't mean to touch that all off. (It was just weird seeing an earlier poster state "Race is optional" next to Sanya exclusively, especially because Sanya's ethnicity is less optional than for the other characters.)

Personally I want Morgan Freemon for the Merlin so I agree with you there.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

xD He just can't escape being the Ancient Wise One, can he?

[Dragonus45]

xD He just can't escape being the Ancient Wise One, can he?

Not THE Merlin, just The Merlin. Less ancient and certainly less wise.

[Eldan]

I would have cast Christopher Lee as the Merlin. Or is that too close to his other role in which he's a wizard who's head of a council and likes intrigues and the colour white.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

Not THE Merlin, just The Merlin. Less ancient and certainly less wise.

For being a human, he's still pretty ancient. :smalltongue: No spring chicken is The Merlin.

[Mauve Shirt]

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah read the 4 available chapters, watched the trailer, I'm more excited than I've been for the past two books and that includes Ghost Story, which followed a year-long break after Changes you may recall

[Anderlith]

Ebenezzer should be Scott Green.
Morgan should be Micheal Cain.
Hugh Laurie or David Tennant can be Steed.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

Huh. Rereading his description, Steed sounds an awful lot like an incognito Tenth Doctor. :smallbiggrin:

Also, holy pyrofuego Michael Caine as Morgan would be fantastic. Did Morgan have that old-looking of an appearance, though?

[lord_khaine]

Also, holy pyrofuego Michael Caine as Morgan would be fantastic. Did Morgan have that old-looking of an appearance, though?

As i remember Morgan were getting into his second century, and he were starting to look rather worn down at the beginning of changes.

[Kuulvheysoon]

Huh. Rereading his description, Steed sounds an awful lot like an incognito Tenth Doctor. :smallbiggrin:

Also, holy pyrofuego Michael Caine as Morgan would be fantastic. Did Morgan have that old-looking of an appearance, though?

I'd love Hugh Laurie as Steed - it would totally make my day.

There's mention in one of the books to Morgan having been a Warden for over a century, so he's getting up there in years.

[Aidan305]

There's mention in one of the books to Morgan having been a Warden for over a century, so he's getting up there in years.

Not really. He's pretty much middle-aged for wizards. Ebenezer and Langtry are in their 300s. Ancient Mai is older still.

[Gnome Alone]

I think Morgan's described even in Turn Coat as having brown hair that's graying. So like, physiologically maybe late 40's, early 50's? (Although I know that 't'ain't necessarily so; my own grandfather was just starting to go gray when he died, at 79.)
It's very hard for me to not picture the version of Morgan from the comics, and that one looks to be early middle-aged, anyway.

It makes me wonder, does Harry still look like a guy in his 20's? He's around 38, right? I think I heard he's supposed to be 25 in Storm Front and Murphy was about 30... Guess we'll find out if she starts complaining about getting older and going, "You still look like a kid, you jerk."

He's starting to complain about stuff like his knees hurting, which would make sense if his aging hasn't started slowing down yet. But the vibe I'm getting is that wizards age naturally till like 40 or 50 and then take a long-ass time to get to being genuinely, physiologically elderly.

[lightningcat]

Harry has had a life that is comparable in physical damage to that of a professional football player, and often worse. Even if he will get around to healing the damage, it can still cause health problems for him in the "short" term. So bad knees and other general aches and pains makes sense, just like a lot of collage athletes have them.

[Valwyn]

I think Harry is about 38, but looks older than Thomas (who doesn't even moisturize, the jerk :smallmad:). Of course, Thomas, being a whitepire, probably isn't the best person to compare Harry to.

[LadyEowyn]

On the topic of casting, Tom Hiddleston needs to be Thomas. We already know from his roles as Loki that midnight-black hair looks great on him, he's attractive enough for the role, and he's an excellent actor.

[Anderlith]

On the topic of casting, Tom Hiddleston needs to be Thomas. We already know from his roles as Loki that midnight-black hair looks great on him, he's attractive enough for the role, and he's an excellent actor.

He doesn't have a body like the High Priest of Bowflex. Tom Hiddleston is pretty lanky & lean... & a touch feminine. Thomas is pale greek god of sexual virtility & masculine form. Tom might make a good Madrigal, but for Thomas no way. Sorry if anyone here is a fan.

I would like to maybe suggest

Joe Manganiello

or

Wes Bentley

There was another actor, but I can't recall them right now

[CarpeGuitarrem]

Robert Pattinson would probably gleefully go for the chance to play one of the evil White Court vampires. :smalltongue:

[Anderlith]

Robert Pattinson would probably gleefully go for the chance to play one of the evil White Court vampires. :smalltongue:

With the right look & wardrobe he could play the Ebbs with Helena Bonham Carter

[Tom Tearcamel]

I noticed (from Jim Butcher's twitter) that both Kindle and Nook are having a 1day sale of the 1st 7 books for 2$ each (USA only I think). If anyone wants to get digital copies.

Or strong-arm friends to finally buy them.

[Mauve Shirt]

I definitely like Hiddleston for Madrigal. I don't like his nose or lanky shape for Thomas. Thomas is more classically beautiful.
Also Hiddleston always plays slimy jerk roles, and Madrigal is a slimy jerk. :smallwink:

[CarpeGuitarrem]

With the right look & wardrobe he could play the Ebbs with Helena Bonham Carter
But he's not Johnny Depp! There's, like, some sort of film law that states whenever Helena Bonham Carter is married, it must be to Johnny Depp. :smalltongue:

Also, tidbit I fished up about Bob's appearance from Ghost Story--when Butters is toting him around, he looks like an attractive young man (leather biker jacket with a skull embroidered on it) that Harry hypothesizes takes after younger Butters a little.

[Valwyn]

But he's not Johnny Depp! There's, like, some sort of film law that states whenever Helena Bonham Carter is married, it must be to Johnny Depp. :smalltongue:

That, and Tim Burton needs to be the director.


Also, tidbit I fished up about Bob's appearance from Ghost Story--when Butters is toting him around, he looks like an attractive young man (leather biker jacket with a skull embroidered on it) that Harry hypothesizes takes after younger Butters a little.

I always pictured Butters with black hair.

Speaking of Bob (who thanks to that description and TVTropes (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DracoInLeatherPants) I'm picturing as Tom Felton), would you say he could be an Elemental Weird (MM II 90) with some tweaking?

[CarpeGuitarrem]

Third of the way through Cold Days. Hrrrk. I forgot about that scene where Thomas takes Harry to task, when they reunite. That's powerful stuff.

[Gnome Alone]

Third of the way through Cold Days. Hrrrk. I forgot about that scene where Thomas takes Harry to task, when they reunite. That's powerful stuff.

It is. Y'know, the one thing I don't like about Cold Days is that Thomas is the only one who gives Harry crap for letting everybody know that he was only "mostly dead" right away. Even Murphy barely has any reaction, and her whole deal in Ghost Story was coming to terms with it. Yeesh.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

I just read the scene where he re-encounters Murphy, actually. It seemed pretty clear that she's had a lot of under-the-surface tensions over that, and she doesn't open up well. That's sorta the way their dynamic has always gone. (Whereas Thomas and Harry had always built up that raw, direct relationship where they go at one another frankly.)

[Somebloke]

Six days...

[Gnome Alone]

I just read the scene where he re-encounters Murphy, actually. It seemed pretty clear that she's had a lot of under-the-surface tensions over that, and she doesn't open up well. That's sorta the way their dynamic has always gone. (Whereas Thomas and Harry had always built up that raw, direct relationship where they go at one another frankly.)

I get that she's not gonna go, "Harryyyyyyy, I wanna talk about my feeeeeelings." Under-the-surface tensions, sure; I just really expected something on the order of "Holy ***, you're alive!?" first.

[Requizen]

Read the preview chapters:

Butcher if you let ANYTHING BAD happen to Murphy I will...

Probably crawl into a corner and cry. Jim please.

[Lamech]

Read the preview chapters:

Butcher if you let ANYTHING BAD happen to Murphy I will...

Probably crawl into a corner and cry. Jim please.

I think Murphy needs to take up the sword and/or coin. Then she could not be so fragile.

But really taking Murphy into a place that Nic needs help to survive in probably isn't good for her life expectency.

Also Molly needs to ask Harry out on a date.

[The Glyphstone]

So, book 16 is going to be called Peace Talks.
http://www.jim-butcher.com/books/dresden/peace-talks-16
Speculation go!



Too soon?

[Gnome Alone]

Maybe some kind of alliance with Lara Raith and/or John Marcone to take down the Fomor? Possibly leading to finally taking her/him down actually? (I'll just leave the meaning of that phrase open-ended, wink wink nudge nudge.) Maybe some kinda plan to get the White Council to stop being medieval, child-murdering pariahs to the rest of the supernatural world?

[The Glyphstone]

Lara x Marcone. Now that's a scary relationship to think about.


What's the rotating schedule of primary supernaturals again? Denarians every 5th book, Vampires every 3rd book, Faeries every 4th book, right?

If we keep to that, the Fae Courts will be front-and-center during Peace Talks in some fashion.

[lord_khaine]

Maybe some kind of alliance with Lara Raith and/or John Marcone to take down the Fomor? Possibly leading to finally taking her/him down actually? (I'll just leave the meaning of that phrase open-ended, wink wink nudge nudge.) Maybe some kinda plan to get the White Council to stop being medieval, child-murdering pariahs to the rest of the supernatural world?

Except that even Dresden saw how the killing of warlocks could become nececary, no matter how young they were.

[datalaughing]

If we keep to that, the Fae Courts will be front-and-center during Peace Talks in some fashion.

Given his whole winter knight gig, I think we can expect the Fae to be pretty involved most of the time at this point.

[The Glyphstone]

Given his whole winter knight gig, I think we can expect the Fae to be pretty involved most of the time at this point.

Involved, sure, but not primary feature. Look at Skin Games...the Fae are 'involved' because he's on the team as Mab's favor to Nicodemus, but the driving faction/person of the plot is Nikky and his Nickleheads. Cold Days was about Outsiders, even though there was a lot of Fae involvement, the internal workings/politics/motives of the Fae Courts didn't provide the central aspect of the plot.


Though admittedly, this same rule says Skin Games should heavily involve both vampires and Denarians, as it is divisible by 5 and 3. So the 'Rule' might have broken down already.

[Mauve Shirt]

There could always be a "Lara's messing up Chicago" side-plot that factors into Harry's brainfriend-extermination requirements.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Faeries every 4th book, right?
I wouldn't really consider the Sidhe to be the primary supernatural of book 12.

[The Glyphstone]

I wouldn't really consider the Sidhe to be the primary supernatural of book 12.

Changes was Book 12. Vampires were the primary supernatural (divisible by 3). Faeries...well, this was the book where Harry took the Mantle of Winter. But that is pushing it.

On the other hand, that could explain why Skin Games won't feature vampires - one of the things Changes possibly broke was The Pattern, it only applies to pre-Changes novels. This is supported by Cold Days being very much a Sidhe-centric book despite being #14.

[GenericMook]

Well, Harry taking up the Mantle is kind of a big deal, since it's been something that Mab has been pushing for in most (not sure if all) of her appearances since Summer Knight.

Plus, it's also the reason we get Ghost Story, and drives the plot for Cold Days. So I might give it to them on that note.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Changes was Book 12. Vampires were the primary supernatural (divisible by 3). Faeries...well, this was the book where Harry took the Mantle of Winter. But that is pushing it.
It's definitely an important event, but I don't think it's enough to make it part of a rule.


On the other hand, that could explain why Skin Games won't feature vampires - one of the things Changes possibly broke was The Pattern, it only applies to pre-Changes novels. This is supported by Cold Days being very much a Sidhe-centric book despite being #14.
That seems pretty likely to be what happened. Changes had a lot of upheavals, and breaking the pattern was one of them.

[tomandtish]

Maybe some kind of alliance with Lara Raith and/or John Marcone to take down the Fomor? Possibly leading to finally taking her/him down actually? (I'll just leave the meaning of that phrase open-ended, wink wink nudge nudge.) Maybe some kinda plan to get the White Council to stop being medieval, child-murdering pariahs to the rest of the supernatural world?

Hmm.. but wouldn't that mean that the status quo of Ghost Story and Cold Days is undone? After all, Murphy seems to already have peace (or at least a very strong non-aggression pact) with both of them already established.

Of course, Harry being Harry, they'll probably be in tattered shambles by the end of Skin Job.


Release day works out well for me. I get off work at 12:30am Monday night and it should be waiting for me. I figure I'll be done by 2:30a - 3:00a. :smallbiggrin:

[The Glyphstone]

Got my order-shipped email from Amazon today. Going to class Tuesday, getting out at 12:30, coming home,and reading till I drop.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Got my order-shipped email from Amazon today. Going to class Tuesday, getting out at 12:30, coming home,and reading till I drop.

I think I might get it on my Kindle. Might not have the time to read it until later, though.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

Changes was Book 12. Vampires were the primary supernatural (divisible by 3). Faeries...well, this was the book where Harry took the Mantle of Winter. But that is pushing it.

On the other hand, that could explain why Skin Games won't feature vampires - one of the things Changes possibly broke was The Pattern, it only applies to pre-Changes novels. This is supported by Cold Days being very much a Sidhe-centric book despite being #14.
I'm starting to think that there is a rotation, but it's only approximate. Vampires have a shorter period of absence, as do the Sidhe, and the Denarians show up the most infrequently. That said, there's very good reasons for Sidhe to be around much more frequently now.

(Also, Amazon tells me Skin Game is arriving at 8. Hoping that's wrong.)

[Somebloke]

Agh. I have a dentist's appointment tomorrow, which means that picking it up after work isn't feasable. I'll have to get it Wednesday after work on my way to D&D at the pub.

Grrr.

[The Glyphstone]

...holy crap IT CAME TODAY.

[spoilr]
Nicodemus is revealed to be Harry's gender-swapped gender-swapped gender-swapped time-traveling evil grand-daughter from Mars.
[/spoiler]

[Pokonic]

...holy crap IT CAME TODAY.

[spoilr]
Nicodemus is revealed to be Harry's gender-swapped gender-swapped gender-swapped time-traveling evil grand-daughter from Mars.
[/spoiler]

[spooilur]

Called it.

[/\spoller]

[Jaxzan Proditor]

...holy crap IT CAME TODAY.

[spoilr]
Nicodemus is revealed to be Harry's gender-swapped gender-swapped gender-swapped time-traveling evil grand-daughter from Mars.
[/spoiler]

That's not a nice thing to do to people. :smalltongue:

[Mauve Shirt]

...holy crap IT CAME TODAY.

[spoilr]
Nicodemus is revealed to be Harry's gender-swapped gender-swapped gender-swapped time-traveling evil grand-daughter from Mars.
[/spoiler]

Omigod [spoiler] I LOVED the part where Susan comes back as a full red, turns Molly into a vampire (nullifying her obligation to Winter) and then they both go and massacre the Carpenters as part of the Denarian plot! It was classic Butcher![/spoler]

[The Glyphstone]

That's not a nice thing to do to people. :smalltongue:

Sorry, I'll check for typos next time. It's his Great-grand-daughter, my bad.

The end of the book has Harry wake up in the shower post-Turn Coat. Changes, Ghost Story, Cold Days, and Skin Game were all a dream, and the next book, 'Peace Talks', is about negotiations with the Red Court.


I'm not lying about the book though. I have it sitting next to me. Gonna be up allllllll night....

[Mauve Shirt]

You do? What's the first word of the 6th chapter?

[The Glyphstone]

You do? What's the first word of the 6th chapter?

I'll do you better, I'll give you the first five.

Karrin drove us to the....

Timestamped for proof.



also.
BUTCHER, YOU ARE A BUTT. A BUTT DO YOU HEAR ME?

[Gnome Alone]

also.
BUTCHER, YOU ARE A BUTT. A BUTT DO YOU HEAR ME?

I'm no scientician, but I think if you want authors to hear you through the internet you've gotta yell, like, really loud.

[The Glyphstone]

I'm no scientician, but I think if you want authors to hear you through the internet you've gotta yell, like, really loud.


JIM.
BUTCHER.
IS.
A.
BUTT.


A hilarious butt. But still a butt.

[Dragonus45]

I hate you both, I'm patiently waiting for my ebook copy to show up on my kindle.

[tomandtish]

I hate you both, I'm patiently waiting for my ebook copy to show up on my kindle.

Exactly! Isn't one of the big e-book advantages supposed to be not having to ... what's the word... WAIT for shipping?

It's a conspiracy!

[datalaughing]

Mine came in early as well, thank you, Amazon! I'm about 1/3 of the way through already, and wow. I'll spoiler this just in case, but since it's true of like every Dresden Files book, I don't think it's too much of a spoiler:

Almost every chapter that goes by has Harry seeming in farther over his head than ever. It's really kind of sad. Sometimes I think Jim seriously hates this poor guy.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

My copy just appeared on my Kindle. Looks like I'm not getting much sleep tonight. :smalltongue:

[Anderlith]

Because of funds I have to wait til my library gets it. I am on the waiting list for the book. I am 134th in line :'(

[Dragonus45]

Just finished, so good, so tear jerky, so awesome new hopefully recurring character, so starwars, so tired talk later. any idea what all the artifacts were, I have a few thoughts but u wanted to pick someone's brain.

[Valwyn]

[spoilr]
Nicodemus is revealed to be Harry's gender-swapped gender-swapped gender-swapped time-traveling evil grand-daughter from Mars.
[/spoiler]

... that actually sounds similar to a plot point my DM used. Still trying to figure out what happened.


People with books

I hate you all. :smallfrown: (Just kidding)
So... did Harry get a massive guilt trip yet?

[Chen]

Downloaded from the itunes store this morning on my phone on the way to work. Didn't get past the chapters that I had already heard Jim read at that one con though. Still can't wait til work is done today so I can read some more!

[Feytalist]

Aaaand I have my e-copy.

I'm really tempted to start reading right here at work.


...in fact, I just might do that.


Oh! I have to add: I have steadfastly refused to read, or listen to, any of the pre-released chapters (and spoilers thereof). My reading of the book will literally be my first time. I'm rather proud of this :smallbiggrin:

[The Glyphstone]

[/COLOR]
So... did Harry get a massive guilt trip yet?

Singular, or plural? From who? And on what subject?

[CarpeGuitarrem]

Oh! I have to add: I have steadfastly refused to read, or listen to, any of the pre-released chapters (and spoilers thereof). My reading of the book will literally be my first time. I'm rather proud of this :smallbiggrin:
Ditto. I just finished Cold Days (again!) last night, and the book should be waiting for me when I get home.

[Feytalist]

Ditto. I just finished Cold Days (again!) last night, and the book should be waiting for me when I get home.

Heh. What great timing. I finished my recap read-through about two months back, but it's still fresh enough for me to appreciate, I think.

[Rakaydos]

Hmm... Peace Talks. Unseelie Acords. Winter Knight.

I'm thinking a situation like in the last denarian book, where someone calls in a Accords violation and Dresden has to be the moderator (like lilly was last time)

[The Glyphstone]

Hmm... Peace Talks. Unseelie Acords. Winter Knight.

I'm thinking a situation like in the last denarian book, where someone calls in a Accords violation and Dresden has to be the moderator (like lilly was last time)

Eh, that seems like both a stretch of 'peace talks' and a retread of Small Favors.

My bet is that it's something more like negotiations for a treaty with one of the 'bad guy' factions...probably the White Court...to officially ally with the White Council against the Outsiders and their minions. Or maybe the Fomor; it's a very big stretch, especially since we have 4 books to go till the Apocalyptic Trilogy and the Fomor are the front-and-center antagonists. But a Fomor-centric book, with big infodumps and exposition about their civilization, would be a neat thing to read. Plus, Harry would be stuck in some sort of underwater city, a situation that's gotta suck for doing magic.

[tomandtish]

Wait a minute, this can't be right!

Harry making a long-term plan (in terms of chapter length) that works? My world view has been seriously shattered! Also, SPOT! :smallbiggrin:



Just finished, so good, so tear jerky, so awesome new hopefully recurring character, so starwars, so tired talk later. any idea what all the artifacts were, I have a few thoughts but u wanted to pick someone's brain.

Let me start by stating this is not a religious discussion, but simply analysis of what the artifacts might be in relation to the Grail. If you want religious discussion, go elsewhere.

While not an expert, I believe these are other artifacts related to Jesus. The Grail is obvious. The cloth may be the real Shroud of Turin (thus the speculation that the one that showed up earlier is a fake). It could otherwise be the Veil of Veronica (cloth used by Jesus to wipe his face while carrying the cross). The crown of thorns would be the one he was wearing. The knife... presumably the one he used the cut the bread when he said "This is my body". (It is allegedly at St Mark's Campanile but has never been given a name). The placard was hung around his neck (Luke 23:38) as a "statement" of his crimes and said this is the king of the Jews." It has also never been given a name (that I can find).

So we have 5 artifacts all in a group that were tied to Jesus. The Grail and the Shroud are the most well known and have the most well known powers tied to them (Resurrection for the Shroud, healing for the Grail). Not sure what powers the others would have.

[The Glyphstone]

Wait a minute, this can't be right!

Harry making a long-term plan (in terms of chapter length) that works? My world view has been seriously shattered! Also, SPOT! :smallbiggrin:



Thus we see the Unspoken Plan Guarantee (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/UnspokenPlanGuarantee) principle at work. The audience didn't even know the plan was there (though even Harry didn't know who he was planning with, which was a fun little reveal at the end), so thus it was absolutely guaranteed to function perfectly.

[One Tin Soldier]

Looks like it's time for the Soldier to take a trip to the bookstore...

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Ditto. I just finished Cold Days (again!) last night, and the book should be waiting for me when I get home.

That's nice that it will be all fresh in your mind. I did a read through of the whole series recently just in preparation for Skin Games.


According to my Kindle I am 60% done with the book.

[tomandtish]

Thus we see the Unspoken Plan Guarantee (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/UnspokenPlanGuarantee) principle at work. The audience didn't even know the plan was there (though even Harry didn't know who he was planning with, which was a fun little reveal at the end), so thus it was absolutely guaranteed to function perfectly.


Actually, Harry had made a few little asides, enough that it seemed apparent he did have a plan in the works. What the plan actually was, I didn't see coming at all, but it was apparent he did have something in mind.

But it's Harry. It's still supposed to go horribly wrong.

[Feytalist]

Aaand I just finished the book. Eight hours, give or take. Might be the fastest I've ever read.

Couple of thoughts, but I'll go into them after I've had a bit of a sleep.

[The Glyphstone]

Actually, Harry had made a few little asides, enough that it seemed apparent he did have a plan in the works. What the plan actually was, I didn't see coming at all, but it was apparent he did have something in mind.

But it's Harry. It's still supposed to go horribly wrong.


Still kinda disagree. The situation always goes horribly wrong for him, but it's rarely because of his plans being bad. He's at his best improvising or setting up aces in the hole for when he needs them, then improvising as things fall out (badly).

Grey

Was his ace in the hole. He knew the whole heist was going to go horribly wrong somehow, but couldn't predict how or when, so he planned ahead with a secret advantage, expecting he'd know when the right time to use it would be.

[Somebloke]

Finished!

Sleep now, discuss tomorrow. But I enjoyed it.

[tomandtish]

Still kinda disagree. The situation always goes horribly wrong for him, but it's rarely because of his plans being bad. He's at his best improvising or setting up aces in the hole for when he needs them, then improvising as things fall out (badly).

Grey

Was his ace in the hole. He knew the whole heist was going to go horribly wrong somehow, but couldn't predict how or when, so he planned ahead with a secret advantage, expecting he'd know when the right time to use it would be.


Hmm... In a way I think we're seeing the same thing from opposite sides. Usually Harry has a plan (and maybe an ace), things go horribly wrong, and then he starts improvising (as you correctly point out).

In this case Harry's plan from the beginning WAS the ace in the hole, and that plan never really falls apart. As far as the heist itself goes, the situation pretty much played out as anticipated and he never needs to deviate from plan.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Alright, I finished it. I enjoyed it a ton. I might elaborate a little more on what I though, but I'm too tired right now. Time to look at those spoilers!

[PairO'Dice Lost]

Today was torture; I got a delivery email from Amazon at 10 in the morning and didn't get home until 5. :smallfrown: At which point I finished it in three hours and forty minutes. What a ride.



Thus we see the Unspoken Plan Guarantee (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/UnspokenPlanGuarantee) principle at work. The audience didn't even know the plan was there (though even Harry didn't know who he was planning with, which was a fun little reveal at the end), so thus it was absolutely guaranteed to function perfectly.


The audience didn't know a plan was there? Really? I dunno, the "I spent three hours doing who-knows-what and am not going to tell anyone what I was up to" conversation was a pretty huge tip-off. My guess as to what the plan actually was was completely wrong--I'd guessed Grey was a naagloshii based both on the introductory scene where he wasn't intimidated by anyone in the gang and on the Skin Game pun, and figured that Harry wouldn't have anything to do with one of them, not really realizing 'til the end that Harry didn't know about that--but the mere existence of a plan should have been obvious, I thought.

As soon as it was mentioned that the hilt of Fidelacchius was left intact, I was really really really really hoping someone would get to wield a +5 holy lightsaber. :smallbiggrin: I was expecting Harry to be the one, of course, but I'm glad Butters got his time in the spotlight. Jedi Master Batman has certainly come a long way since "Polka will never die!"

[Socratov]

Well, ****. That just cost me a night of sleep (as in, exactly). I guess it's gonna be time for a good cup of coffee.

Also, I have a strange craving to both congratulate Jim on another riveting read and have his face meet my knuckles for what he did with some plot twists. Anyway, I won't post spoilers (in a spoilerbox of course) until I get bored waiting for everybody to finish reading...

[CarpeGuitarrem]

I've gotten up to Chapter 10. I anticipate reading more soon.

Murphy telling Harry "You've just got to have a little faith." Seems like having Amoracchius around has had a good influence on her. :smallsmile:

[The Glyphstone]

Without spoiling why, Chapter Fourteen was the first point I had to put the book down to call Jim a butt.

[Sinfonian]

Before I comment on the book itself, I'll just mention what happened when I acquired my copy. I walked into Books-A-Million and was almost immediately greeted by an associate. After asking where I could find Skin Game, she asked "Did you want to get the signed copy?" Apparently, the store had a single signed copy that came in along with the others and was selling it for the same price as the rest. So, unexpectedly, I ended up with a Day 1 signed book.

I read the book and really did enjoy the heck out of it. I liked the plot, including the twists, the reveals, and the indications for what's going to happen going forward. The action scenes were decent, but seemed to be a little lower than the bar had already been set (though I don't think he can really match Changes until the Big Apocalyptic Trilogy). Most of all, I think I just enjoyed seeing the return of my favorite character.

I did want to speculate on this though:

While not an expert, I believe these are other artifacts related to Jesus. The Grail is obvious. The cloth may be the real Shroud of Turin (thus the speculation that the one that showed up earlier is a fake). It could otherwise be the Veil of Veronica (cloth used by Jesus to wipe his face while carrying the cross). The crown of thorns would be the one he was wearing. The knife... presumably the one he used the cut the bread when he said "This is my body". (It is allegedly at St Mark's Campanile but has never been given a name). The placard was hung around his neck (Luke 23:38) as a "statement" of his crimes and said this is the king of the Jews." It has also never been given a name (that I can find).
I think you've got 4 out of 5 correct: the Grail, the Crown of Thorns, the placard, and the Shroud (I doubt it's the Veil, and agree with Harry that belief had infused the fake with sufficient power to be a major item in its own right). However, I'm guessing that the knife is actually the blade from the Spear of Longinus, the one with which the centurion stabbed Jesus on the Cross after he died (also sometimes known as the Spear of Destiny). It's a much better known relic, and strikes me as more the sort of thing that would come into play in the story.

While I sympathize with the Molly//Harry shippers, I was pleased that they finally cut the crap and had Karrin and Harry become a thing. For a bit, I thought they were going to keep stringing that out interminably.

It was truly a pleasure to see Michael in action again. He managed to serve as Harry's moral compass again without being overly preachy. The scene where he chews Harry out for his arrogance is something Harry has been told before, but not in such a way that drove it home. It mixed compassion, frustration, and humor together the way most suited for Harry to take away the proper lesson without feeling bad about it.

The scene with Uriel coming down and loaning Michael his Grace seemed almost literally Deus Ex Machina as a way to get him back in the game, but when dealing with literal archangels that's almost to be expected. I thought it would have had more of an impact than it did: Uriel may have Fallen/died, it could have broken Harry's access to Soulfire at a critical point, it may still have serious consequences down the line. It just seems like there could be more there. As it was, it only served as a temporary means to get Michael off the bench and slightly raise the already high stakes of the attack on the Carpenter house, but easily could have been replaced by any number of other temporary measures.

[Feytalist]

Alright, I've had my sleep now. I skimmed the book again this morning with an eye towards

Gray's "Wizard" dialogue. Couple of good bits there once you know what's coming. I guessed what he was pretty much since the first shifting scene, but I must admit, I didn't see his full role coming :smallbiggrin:

Oh! So I guess the book title is referring to him?

Another thought: his mention of "Rent" (capital R); think that has anything to do with Demonreach? We know some of his kind is locked up there. Maybe he's paying to be on "parole" as such? Or, maybe, he's paying to keep something inside. He did mention not being on good terms with his father, after all. Heh.

Also

The moment the Sword broke, I just knew we were going to see some lightsaber action. It was too good a set-up, otherwise. I'm not sure how I feel about Polka Knight of the Cross... I quite like the idea of Knights "not serving for more than three days". I know that Karrin was never meant to be a Knight. It would have been made clearer in the previous books, otherwise.

Also: How awesome is Michael? Yeah. Exactly that awesome. I do not mind admitting that I tear up every time Harry calls him "a good man". He is just possibly my favourite character in the whole series (except for the swearing. Christians, especially devout ones, simply do not swear like that. But enough about that.)

I was kinda expecting Molly to make a big damn heroes appearance right at the end, and lay down some Winter Lady hurt. but I guess it's a bit too early for that particular scene. You know it's coming though. And it's going to be awesome.


Without spoiling why, Chapter Fourteen was the first point I had to put the book down to call Jim a butt.

Yyyup.

But really, I sorta saw that coming. Too easy otherwise.


Before I comment on the book itself, I'll just mention what happened when I acquired my copy. I walked into Books-A-Million and was almost immediately greeted by an associate. After asking where I could find Skin Game, she asked "Did you want to get the signed copy?" Apparently, the store had a single signed copy that came in along with the others and was selling it for the same price as the rest. So, unexpectedly, I ended up with a Day 1 signed book.

0_o That's pretty awesome.


I did want to speculate on this though:

I think you've got 4 out of 5 correct: the Grail, the Crown of Thorns, the placard, and the Shroud (I doubt it's the Veil, and agree with Harry that belief had infused the fake with sufficient power to be a major item in its own right). However, I'm guessing that the knife is actually the blade from the Spear of Longinus, the one with which the centurion stabbed Jesus on the Cross after he died (also sometimes known as the Spear of Destiny). It's a much better known relic, and strikes me as more the sort of thing that would come into play in the story.

Yeah, that was my first thought as well. The Lance is generally depicted in media as only the blade, in any case. And spear tips are quite often referred to as "leaf-shaped". So I think that's a fair assumption.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

All right, I now have enough time to write out some of my thoughts

First of all, it seems like everyone here is better at predicting these things than I am. I didn't suspect who Grey was until he turned into a horse.

I did guess that Lasciel would be making a return, but not how.

I am so glad that Harry and Murphy finally got together.

I'm glad Harry finally met with Maggie.

I like the minor little detail that Ferrovax had a vault in Marcone's bank.

[Valwyn]

Well, since I can't comment on the book yet...


Singular, or plural? From who? And on what subject?

Any of the above. I get the feeling he gets a guilt trip every now and then.


Ditto. I just finished Cold Days (again!) last night, and the book should be waiting for me when I get home.

Speaking of Cold Days, there's something that always bothered me. Mother Summer says that Mother Winter was pissed at Harry because he made her travel to the human world and she lost her cane. Can anyone think of famous mythological staves/polearms used in mythology by women related to death/cold/destruction?


Hmm... Peace Talks. Unseelie Acords. Winter Knight.

I'm thinking a situation like in the last denarian book, where someone calls in a Accords violation and Dresden has to be the moderator (like lilly was last time)

I think Peace Talks might have to do with Lara's little speech on peace in White Night:
"I am glad to see you survived, wizard. You who destroyed my father and secured my own power, you who have now destroyed my enemies. You are the most marvelous weapon I have ever wielded. I love peace, wizard. I love talking. Laughing. Relaxing. I will kill your folk with peace, wizard. I will strangle them with it. And they will thank me while I do."

[tomandtish]

I think you've got 4 out of 5 correct: the Grail, the Crown of Thorns, the placard, and the Shroud (I doubt it's the Veil, and agree with Harry that belief had infused the fake with sufficient power to be a major item in its own right). However, I'm guessing that the knife is actually the blade from the Spear of Longinus, the one with which the centurion stabbed Jesus on the Cross after he died (also sometimes known as the Spear of Destiny). It's a much better known relic, and strikes me as more the sort of thing that would come into play in the story.



Yeah, that was my first thought as well. The Lance is generally depicted in media as only the blade, in any case. And spear tips are quite often referred to as "leaf-shaped". So I think that's a fair assumption.

Hmm… First, let me start by saying that I have no idea why that one never occurred to me. It should be obvious enough that it at least crossed my mind.

On the other hand, (and after some quick research based on memories from museum tours), if it IS supposed to be the Blade of Longinus, then it has either been reforged, or Jim failed some research. All Roman spears with leaf-shaped blades that I’m able to find pictures of from that time frame use a socket design, not a tang (and I’m assuming that what Harry saw wasn’t a wooden handle with the blade in a socket or else that would have been worthy of comment).

So there’s an excellent chance you are right. But if so, that would imply that relics like that can actually be reworked. Which does make some sense since we know that at least two of the swords have been reforged. On the other hand, the swords themselves aren’t relics, only the nails. And nothing’s been said about the nail ever being altered.

But yeah, good catch. Can’t believe I missed that one. :smallredface:

[Sinfonian]

Speaking of Cold Days, there's something that always bothered me. Mother Summer says that Mother Winter was pissed at Harry because he made her travel to the human world and she lost her cane. Can anyone think of famous mythological staves/polearms used in mythology by women related to death/cold/destruction?

Most speculation has pretty much settled on Mother Winter's walking stick as the Blackstaff, held by Ebenezer. It's got the same sort of dark power thing going, along with a penchant for killing, that totally works with her.

I wouldn't be surprised in the least if Peace Talks features Lara is some way. That quote was a good pickup. It's been too long since we've seen Lara herself (Turn Coat, unless I'm mistaken), and it's about time she makes a reapperance.

[tomandtish]

Speaking of Cold Days, there's something that always bothered me. Mother Summer says that Mother Winter was pissed at Harry because he made her travel to the human world and she lost her cane. Can anyone think of famous mythological staves/polearms used in mythology by women related to death/cold/destruction?


Most speculation has pretty much settled on Mother Winter's walking stick as the Blackstaff, held by Ebenezer. It's got the same sort of dark power thing going, along with a penchant for killing, that totally works with her.

Valwyn, one minor clarification (based on the way your comment is written). Mother Winter lost her staff (Cause unk but see Sinfonian's comment above). Harry then summons her, travel hurts without the staff, so she's ticked at Harry for summoning her. But Harry didn't cause her to lose the staff (after all, McCoy is already using it in Changes if that interpretation is correct).


“It is her way,” Mother Summer said, smiling. “She rarely leaves our cottage anymore. She lost her walking stick. While your summons was impertinent, it was a necessity and you had the right. But it is terribly painful for her to travel, even briefly. You, a mortal, hurt her.”

If you already realized this, I apologize, but your wording made it seem like you think Harry is responsible for her losing the staff.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Also, one question I know have: Michael pointed this out, and it made me curious. Why does Harry know so many quotes from the Bible?

Also, a general question, why does it seem like most angels' names end in -iel or -ael?

[Dragonus45]

Also, one question I know have: Michael pointed this out, and it made me curious. Why does Harry know so many quotes from the Bible?

Also, a general question, why does it seem like most angels' names end in -iel or -ael?

It seems to be something that he picks up more as the series goes on. I always imagine Harry as the kind of person who really wants to find faith but has just had to rough of a life and is to cynical to really get into it. Plus in his line of work it pays to know all of everything he can read.

[One Tin Soldier]

Also, a general question, why does it seem like most angels' names end in -iel or -ael?


El means God, so all angel names mean ____ of God. Which is exactly why Uriel got so mad when Harry tried to call him Uri. As he said, it's a rather important part of his name.

[Sanguine]

Also, a general question, why does it seem like most angels' names end in -iel or -ael?

That would be because the suffix "el" means God*. So for instance Uriel means "God is my light" and Gabriel means "The strength of God."


*Technically a lowercase g is probably more accurate as it can also be used to refer to many other ancient Semitic deities, but when it comes to Angel names I think it's pretty obvious which deity it refers to.

Edit: Ninja'd

[Mauve Shirt]

MAN. One thing that's great about Dresden books is the 15 minutes I need to decompress and get my thoughts in order after hitting the last page. I mean, what did I just read?

Ok, so the first chapter that made me go WOAH WAIT WHAT IS THIS should be obvious. Get your romance novel out of my urban fantasy, Butcher, it's like oil and water!
Chapter 23 though. "The parasite is the baby of you and Lash!" I emitted an audible WHAT THE **** at that.
I kind of wanted the difference between Lasciel and Lash to come up in the fight between them, but oh well.

I did not see Grey coming at all, but I LOVED IT. I laughed and laughed and laughed. If there's one thing I love, it's the good guy out-gambiting the bad guy. And him being a Skinwalker? More wtf-did-I-just-read-omg.

What's the deal with Molly and the phone? Why does that creep Harry out so much?

Hopefully the next one comes out next year and not in 2 years.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

El means God, so all angel names mean ____ of God. Which is exactly why Uriel got so mad when Harry tried to call him Uri. As he said, it's a rather important part of his name.


That would be because the suffix "el" means God*. So for instance Uriel means "God is my light" and Gabriel means "The strength of God."


*Technically a lowercase g is probably more accurate as it can also be used to refer to many other ancient Semitic deities, but when it comes to Angel names I think it's pretty obvious which deity it refers to.

Edit: Ninja'd
Thank you for your answers!

[The Glyphstone]

What's the deal with Molly and the phone? Why does that creep Harry out so much?[/SPOILER]

Hopefully the next one comes out next year and not in 2 years.


Because it means she's no longer human, or at the very least she's more Sidhe than human. Yeah, he knows she's the Winter Lady, but there's knowing it intellectually and seeing proof before his eyes.



Time to start brainstorming nicknames for Harry's "child".

Bobbie?

[Mauve Shirt]

Ah, makes sense.
At least he's got with Murphy now (frickin' FINALLY), so he doesn't have to worry about a relationship with Molly-the-crazy-sidhe. Not for a bunch of years, anyway.
I wonder how Bob will feel about Baby Intellect Spirit. I hope we see them talking in the next book.

[Lord Seth]

Anyone have any idea what the five items mentioned on page 339 were? I can only figure out three.
An ancient wooden placard, its paint so faded that the symbols could not be recognized.
A circlet woven from thorny branches.
A clay cup.
A folded cloth.
A knife with a wooden handle and a leaf-shaped blade.

The second is obviously the Crown of Thorns, the third is the Holy Grail, and the fourth (as the book mentioned) is the Shroud of Turin. However, I cannot figure out what the first and fifth are.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Ah, makes sense.
I wonder how Bob will feel about Baby Intellect Spirit. I hope we see them talking in the next book.

I wonder how Bob'll feel about the lose of his back-up home. Probably will have Harry make another one. I want to see more of the child in general. It looks like they're bound to become an interesting character

[Mauve Shirt]

Just going back and reading the villain dialogue, finding all of Grey's code. Check out page 281, Ascher's dialogue about intimate relationships. :smallbiggrin: Screw you Lasciel, you whiny bitch.

[Sinfonian]

Anyone have any idea what the five items mentioned on page 339 were? I can only figure out three.
An ancient wooden placard, its paint so faded that the symbols could not be recognized.
A circlet woven from thorny branches.
A clay cup.
A folded cloth.
A knife with a wooden handle and a leaf-shaped blade.

The second is obviously the Crown of Thorns, the third is the Holy Grail, and the fourth (as the book mentioned) is the Shroud of Turin. However, I cannot figure out what the first and fifth are.

There was some discussion of this on the previous page, but I'll go ahead and repeat what I said there.
You're right about the 3 you know. The wooden placard is the one hung with Jesus on the cross with "INRI" for "Jesus of Nazareth, King of the Jews". There is some debate about the knife, but my contention is that it's likely to be the blade of the Spear of Longinus, which pierced the side of Christ after death on the Cross.

I'm guessing that it's likely that Bob will be (at least briefly) romantically attracted to the new spirit of intellect. It seems kinda like a thing that Bob might do, and would be a thing that's really uncomfortable for Harry. That makes it all the more likely Butcher will do something like that.

[The Glyphstone]

Ah, makes sense.
At least he's got with Murphy now (frickin' FINALLY), so he doesn't have to worry about a relationship with Molly-the-crazy-sidhe. Not for a bunch of years, anyway.
I wonder how Bob will feel about Baby Intellect Spirit. I hope we see them talking in the next book.

Hehehe, you poor naive fool. This is Harry Dresden...something will happen in/before the next book to prevent him and Murphy from actually getting together. The kiss in the hospital will be as far as it gets, because Harry isn't allowed to have a stable relationship with a woman (or anyone else).

I hope Harry is smart enough to keep Bob and Bobbie well apart. No way the perverted little freak should be allowed to start corrupting what's basically a child.

[Lord Seth]

There was some discussion of this on the previous page, but I'll go ahead and repeat what I said there.
You're right about the 3 you know. The wooden placard is the one hung with Jesus on the cross with "INRI" for "Jesus of Nazareth, King of the Jews". There is some debate about the knife, but my contention is that it's likely to be the blade of the Spear of Longinus, which pierced the side of Christ after death on the Cross.

I'm guessing that it's likely that Bob will be (at least briefly) romantically attracted to the new spirit of intellect. It seems kinda like a thing that Bob might do, and would be a thing that's really uncomfortable for Harry. That makes it all the more likely Butcher will do something like that.D'oh, you're right; I totally missed that discussion. I think I got my timing goofed up and thought the book came out the same day I finished it (not quite) so I didn't look back far enough to see. Whoops!

As for your answer:
The placard makes sense. As for the knife... hrm. The big issue with the Lance of Longinus is that it's, well, a lance, right? Seems like it would be bigger than a knife. Then again, Harry seems to know whatever it is because he recognizes them all as priceless artifacts, and I can't think of anything else it could possibly be...

[The Glyphstone]

D'oh, you're right; I totally missed that discussion. I think I got my timing goofed up and thought the book came out the same day I finished it (not quite) so I didn't look back far enough to see. Whoops!

As for your answer:
The placard makes sense. As for the knife... hrm. The big issue with the Lance of Longinus is that it's, well, a lance, right? Seems like it would be bigger than a knife. Then again, Harry seems to know whatever it is because he recognizes them all as priceless artifacts, and I can't think of anything else it could possibly be...


Yeah, but if the spear tip was the only part that actually pierced Christ's body, that's the magical/significant part. Any lance with that point on it is the Lance of Longinus, and a spear-point removed from its haft is about as big as...a knife. As mentioned upthread, it's like the nails in the Swords; you can take that spear-blade and put it on any shaft/spear-haft, and it would be the same priceless artifact.

[Mauve Shirt]

Upon a quick review... Anyone else feel Murph was put in a refrigerator?
It's kind of annoying that she got beat up so hard that she had to be replaced by Butters. To be honest, I expected Butters to end up with the sword of Hope, not Faith, because Faith is perfect for Murphy. I expected Sanya to show up and die in this book. Glad he didn't, but Murphy was pretty much thrown under the literary bus.

[Sinfonian]

Upon a quick review... Anyone else feel Murph was put in a refrigerator?
It's kind of annoying that she got beat up so hard that she had to be replaced by Butters. To be honest, I expected Butters to end up with the sword of Hope, not Faith, because Faith is perfect for Murphy. I expected Sanya to show up and die in this book. Glad he didn't, but Murphy was pretty much thrown under the literary bus.

Short answer: no.

Longer answer: nooooooooooooo.

No, in part because my understanding of that trope is that it is essentially doing harm to women specifically for the impact it will have on the male characters in their lives. Murphy was benched so that Michael would take center stage, true. It also was more importantly (in the larger scheme) the cause of one of the bigger shocks of the book: the breaking of Fidelachius, which seemed to be one of the biggest setbacks for the side of Good. Also, given the number of times main characters have been seriously injured in the course of the books, Karrin was sorta due.

Further, it was a character-defining moment for Murphy: she rashly decided to finish off a threat who had surrendered, even though she knew that it wasn't the right thing to do. However, the scene also served the purpose of demonstrating why she can't really be a Knight of the Cross. As it was explained, you have to have the right reason for using the Swords, not just using them against the right foe. Murph showed that she's too willing to ignore the purpose of saving those taken by the Fallen. Her actions there are part of what make her good for Harry, and make her unsuited to bearing a Sword full-time.

Edit: Adjusted phrasing.

[datalaughing]

A lot of people seem to have a tough time accepting that the "knife" might be the Spear of Destiny/Lance of Longinus, but honestly, it's the only thing that it could possibly be when you look at it. The display was 5 items. We know or at least can guess with some certainty that 4 of them are directly related to the Crucifixion. The crown of thorns that was on his head, the placard that was displayed with him, the cup that caught his blood, the shroud they wrapped him in when they took him down. There's no other blade directly related to the Crucifixion. So unless you think there were 4 crucifixion items and 1 oddball unrelated item all displayed together, there's no other options. Other than the Grail, the spear is the item that probably pops up most in myth and history. Everyone wants it. Hitler raided a museum in Austria specifically to get it. There were definite hints that the "knife" was what Nick was really after in the vault. In my mind there's no doubt.

Interesting theory I saw on the Dresden forums. 5 items related to the being are what you need for a major summoning. We saw Harry use 5 items when summoning the Erlking. Actually he used 10, 5 items for the Erlking and 5 for himself. So, could the real import behind these 5 items from Jesus' death be, not what they can do individually (which I'm sure they are each powerful) but what they could do all together? The second coming, judgment day.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Interesting theory I saw on the Dresden forums. 5 items related to the being are what you need for a major summoning. We saw Harry use 5 items when summoning the Erlking. Actually he used 10, 5 items for the Erlking and 5 for himself. So, could the real import behind these 5 items from Jesus' death be, not what they can do individually (which I'm sure they are each powerful) but what they could do all together? The second coming, judgment day.
That is indeed quite an interesting theory. If that were to happen, I'm sure it would have major consequences. I wonder who would be the one to go through with that summoning.

[tomandtish]

MAN. One thing that's great about Dresden books is the 15 minutes I need to decompress and get my thoughts in order after hitting the last page. I mean, what did I just read?

Ok, so the first chapter that made me go WOAH WAIT WHAT IS THIS should be obvious. Get your romance novel out of my urban fantasy, Butcher, it's like oil and water!
Chapter 23 though. "The parasite is the baby of you and Lash!" I emitted an audible WHAT THE **** at that.
I kind of wanted the difference between Lasciel and Lash to come up in the fight between them, but oh well.

I did not see Grey coming at all, but I LOVED IT. I laughed and laughed and laughed. If there's one thing I love, it's the good guy out-gambiting the bad guy. And him being a Skinwalker? More wtf-did-I-just-read-omg.

What's the deal with Molly and the phone? Why does that creep Harry out so much?

Hopefully the next one comes out next year and not in 2 years.

As Glyphstone mentioned, human mages are the only ones who seem to have a problem using technology. it's been shown that the Queens were once human, but are no longer. This is proof that Molly is no longer human. I suspect that if we got to spend more time with her, we'd see that she is also not telling any outright lies anymore.

Speaking of which, anyone else eagerly awaiting when Michael (and ESPECIALLY Charity) find out what actually happened to Molly? Harry's going to wish that their thinking he slept with her was the only problem....


A lot of people seem to have a tough time accepting that the "knife" might be the Spear of Destiny/Lance of Longinus, but honestly, it's the only thing that it could possibly be when you look at it. The display was 5 items. We know or at least can guess with some certainty that 4 of them are directly related to the Crucifixion. The crown of thorns that was on his head, the placard that was displayed with him, the cup that caught his blood, the shroud they wrapped him in when they took him down. There's no other blade directly related to the Crucifixion. So unless you think there were 4 crucifixion items and 1 oddball unrelated item all displayed together, there's no other options. Other than the Grail, the spear is the item that probably pops up most in myth and history. Everyone wants it. Hitler raided a museum in Austria specifically to get it. There were definite hints that the "knife" was what Nick was really after in the vault. In my mind there's no doubt.

Interesting theory I saw on the Dresden forums. 5 items related to the being are what you need for a major summoning. We saw Harry use 5 items when summoning the Erlking. Actually he used 10, 5 items for the Erlking and 5 for himself. So, could the real import behind these 5 items from Jesus' death be, not what they can do individually (which I'm sure they are each powerful) but what they could do all together? The second coming, judgment day.

My initial thought was that the knife was the one he used at the same time as the cup. The Grail gets all the attention, but there's no reason why that knife wouldn't have just as much power (and it's just as involved as the Grail is).

Having said that, I agree that it is probably supposed to be the Spear. My only issue is that the description doen't quite match Roman spear heads of the time (they'd be socketed, so it slips over the shaft of the spear). That would make a strange enough looking knife that I would expect comment.

[Dragonus45]

Am I the only person who felt that Dresden's recollection of past evens in this book were... off several times.

[Somebloke]

A few thoughts:

Totally called Lasciel being in the crew, although I suspected Anna.

I never, ever thought I would ever think of Butters as a Gary Sue, but a magical batman jedi knight of the cross with a hot werewolf girlfriend...I'm kidding. Mostly.

Speaking of whom, is it a little odd that Andi never actually appears on-screen? We know she was badly injured last book, and when Harry mentions her, Butters clams up. Strange. We know she isn't dead, as she was always in the next room...possibly reading too much into this.

Murphy being unable to kick as much ass as she could...worrying, but I am trusting that Butcher can handle this and her relationship (finally!) with Harry without stuffing her in a fridge.

Also...this has to be the happiest ending for a Dresden Book in the better part of a decade. Which worries me.

The next book will apparently give more focus on Molly, so I guess our worries concerning her humanity will come to a head...I'm predicting a Harry vs Molly scenario.

[Feytalist]

Also to note that the Grail seems to be linked to the Crucifixion in this case, not necessarily the Last Supper. (Though from the description of the Grail, it seems that Butcher used the legend that equates the two. That's not always the case. The Holy Chalice is very often a different relic altogether.) This, together with the Lance of Longinus, would tie the artifacts to the Crucifixion specifically, and not just to Jesus in general.


Am I the only person who felt that Dresden's recollection of past evens in this book were... off several times.

I didn't notice anything. What are you referring to?


A few thoughts:

Speaking of whom, is it a little odd that Andi never actually appears on-screen? We know she was badly injured last book, and when Harry mentions her, Butters clams up. Strange. We know she isn't dead, as she was always in the next room...possibly reading too much into this.

Yeah, I noticed that too. Possibly just so keep the on-screen character count manageable, but I wouldn't preclude the possibility of a shocking reveal in a later book, either. Heh.

[Mauve Shirt]

Short answer: no.

Longer answer: nooooooooooooo.

No, in part because my understanding of that trope is that it is essentially doing harm to women specifically for the impact it will have on the male characters in their lives. Murphy was benched so that Michael would take center stage, true. It also was more importantly (in the larger scheme) the cause of one of the bigger shocks of the book: the breaking of Fidelachius, which seemed to be one of the biggest setbacks for the side of Good. Also, given the number of times main characters have been seriously injured in the course of the books, Karrin was sorta due.

Further, it was a character-defining moment for Murphy: she rashly decided to finish off a threat who had surrendered, even though she knew that it wasn't the right thing to do. However, the scene also served the purpose of demonstrating why she can't really be a Knight of the Cross. As it was explained, you have to have the right reason for using the Swords, not just using them against the right foe. Murph showed that she's too willing to ignore the purpose of saving those taken by the Fallen. Her actions there are part of what make her good for Harry, and make her unsuited to bearing a Sword full-time.

Edit: Adjusted phrasing.

I'll accept your summation.
But I still think it seems like Murph ****s up royally just to fill the Girlfriend slot. They'd better not let their relationship (if it doesn't screw up all by itself) get in the way of Murphy kicking ass. And Hope would still have been better for Butters.
I kind of wonder if the sword dilemma wasn't what kept Butcher up at night while he spent almost 2 years writing this book, because it seemed rather clumsily handled.


A lot of people seem to have a tough time <snip> The second coming, judgment day.

I LIKE IT.

Oh, I was thinking
Grey's variant of Skinwalker seems awfully similar to the version in the Dresden Files TV series. Weird.

Further thinking
It's about time for a White Court book. They haven't been around in earnest since Turn Coat, which was also right after a Denarian book. I'm guessing Winter stirs up trouble, or the White Court has its panties otherwise twisted.
Alternatively, no one's seen what the White Council's been doing lately.
Either way, I want to see some more Skin Game fallout.

[Socratov]

I think Fiddellacchius is a fitting sword for Butters. I mean earlier he was forced by Murphy to pick a side: be wary of one's friends, or loyal to one's friends. right after he screwed up the the meeting between Harry, Murphy and the rest of the crew. Right there he didn't trust Harry one bit, and took action, until after the heist where he sees that Harry is still one of the good guys and that Butters should have trusted him. Butters simply should have had a little more faith in Harry: one of his oldest friends. It's right there and then that he makes the choice Murphy posted to him earlier: he decides to trust his friends and choose loyalty. It's right there that his resolve hardens. Butters doesn't so much have faith in the hebrew god, but in his friends (more specifically Harry). I really think that if there is one sword fitting for Butters it's this one.

Also, I think the last time Harry has had any coitus is a lot of books ago, so I expect he will at least get laid at least once so he can blow off steam. Besides, I expect his relationship with Murphy to flourish to keep the mantle of the Winter Knight a bit more docile. Plus anyone knows Harry needs to get freaky.

[datalaughing]

My initial thought was that the knife was the one he used at the same time as the cup. The Grail gets all the attention, but there's no reason why that knife wouldn't have just as much power (and it's just as involved as the Grail is).

You're thinking of the cup from the last supper. As Feytalist points out, in some traditions there are, in fact, two cups, one that he uses during the last supper and one that is used to catch his blood on the cross. Sometimes they're the same cup. In this instance, I don't think there's any mention of the last supper at all in the book. When Nicodemus reveals what he's after, Grey says something like, "The cup that caught his blood on the cross? Why would you want that old thing?" Nicodemus never even uses the term holy grail or anything like that, I don't think. So the assumption that this cup was also at the last supper is not really safe to make.


I didn't notice anything. What are you referring to?

One of the things I noticed was that Harry says that Nicodemus hired the Churchmice to steal the Shroud way back in book 5. In point of fact, Marcone hired them and Nick and co just tried to intercept.

Also, when he's telling Michael about what happened with Susan, he makes it sound like Martin was the one who did almost everything. He says that Martin slapped her in the face with his reveal of who told them where to find Maggie. In reality Martin didn't volunteer anything about that. Harry comes up with the plan in his head (and hates himself for it) then tells Susan, "Who do you think did that?" And then when she asks, Martin he admits it.

[Feytalist]

One of the things I noticed was that Harry says that Nicodemus hired the Churchmice to steal the Shroud way back in book 5. In point of fact, Marcone hired them and Nick and co just tried to intercept.

Also, when he's telling Michael about what happened with Susan, he makes it sound like Martin was the one who did almost everything. He says that Martin slapped her in the face with his reveal of who told them where to find Maggie. In reality Martin didn't volunteer anything about that. Harry comes up with the plan in his head (and hates himself for it) then tells Susan, "Who do you think did that?" And then when she asks, Martin he admits it.

Huh. Didn't pick up on either of that. Well, he's been through a lot. Can't expect him to remember everything, heh.

It probably doesn't necessarily point to anything sinister. It could just be author error.

...that none of the beta readers picked up on. Hmm.

[Dragonus45]

You're thinking of the cup from the last supper. As Feytalist points out, in some traditions there are, in fact, two cups, one that he uses during the last supper and one that is used to catch his blood on the cross. Sometimes they're the same cup. In this instance, I don't think there's any mention of the last supper at all in the book. When Nicodemus reveals what he's after, Grey says something like, "The cup that caught his blood on the cross? Why would you want that old thing?" Nicodemus never even uses the term holy grail or anything like that, I don't think. So the assumption that this cup was also at the last supper is not really safe to make.



One of the things I noticed was that Harry says that Nicodemus hired the Churchmice to steal the Shroud way back in book 5. In point of fact, Marcone hired them and Nick and co just tried to intercept.

Also, when he's telling Michael about what happened with Susan, he makes it sound like Martin was the one who did almost everything. He says that Martin slapped her in the face with his reveal of who told them where to find Maggie. In reality Martin didn't volunteer anything about that. Harry comes up with the plan in his head (and hates himself for it) then tells Susan, "Who do you think did that?" And then when she asks, Martin he admits it.

Those were the spots I was thinking of. The odd thing is that Anna Valmont used the same story herself.......... ALIENS TIME TRAVEL

[The Glyphstone]

I like how everyone is just assuming this means Murphy and Harry are going to successfully hook up. Have we all forgotten who the main character is and who writes these books? This relationship is doomed before it even kicks off simply because Harry is involved. Odds are good she'll be dead before the end of Peace Talks, after sleeping together for real once to restore Harry's love-shield against the White Court. Poor naive fools.:smallcool:



Also, I think Butters is about to be Put On A Holy Bus. He's had less and less relevance to the story over time, just the back-alley-doctor Harry and Co. go to for patchups of illegally obtained injuries. Since Bob is his servant, this also gets Bob out of play, and it's a way to bring Butters back later for the Apocalyptic Trilogy (or sooner) while shuffling him offstage for now and forcing Harry to handle his own injuries for once. Bob and Bobbie interacting with each other is a recipe for disaster, so Bob needs to go for a bit until Bobbie is stable and healthy.

[Rama]

A random question I have to ask; haven't seen it mentioned, but it's bugging me:


The human-sized, entrapped prisoner.

Speaking with a British accent.

Anyone else thinking...Merlin? THE Merlin?

[The Glyphstone]

A random question I have to ask; haven't seen it mentioned, but it's bugging me:


The human-sized, entrapped prisoner.

Speaking with a British accent.

Anyone else thinking...Merlin? THE Merlin?

It's come up before, yeah. I think the main "But...." was asking why a thousand+ year old wizard who'd been sealed away for most of that time would speak modern British English instead of, like, Ye Olde Butchyred Englishe.

[Rama]

It's come up before, yeah. I think the main "But...." was asking why a thousand+ year old wizard who'd been sealed away for most of that time would speak modern British English instead of, like, Ye Olde Butchyred Englishe.

The same reason Demonreach can? He's clearly able to interact with the outside world, so no reason he couldn't be communicating with the genius loci on a regular basis, offhand. Particularly if his confinement is self imposed.

Really, assuming that Harry is the only Warden in a significant amount of time, it makes as much sense as any of the other inmates being able to 'speak' modern English.

It was too deliberately casual a scene not to be Epic Level Foreshadowing imo, so he's got to be *someone* of note. That's the only British guy I can think of offhand.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

It's come up before, yeah. I think the main "But...." was asking why a thousand+ year old wizard who'd been sealed away for most of that time would speak modern British English instead of, like, Ye Olde Butchyred Englishe.

Well, there is the whole "time traveler" thing.... :smallwink:

[Mauve Shirt]

mercenaries who could get Nick what he wants. Two are under contract elsewhere and the third is presently detained. That's how Kringle knew to hire Grey and not any other shifter.
I wonder if all 4 are skinwalkers. And I WONDER WHERE THE THIRD ONE IS DETAINED!

[The Glyphstone]

Doubtful. Skinwalkers seem to be, as a general rule, CE psychos. Plus, remember that Injun Joe said they can't travel far from their homes on Native American tribal land for very long. Between those two factors, I'd expect 'skinwalker mercenary' to be an extremely small talent pool, to the point where even 4 of them would be excessive. I'm betting the 'four professionals' are simply disguise/shapeshifting experts who could meet the qualifications Nick would need - plenty of mythological shapeshifting creatures out there besides skinwalkers.

For that matter, the fact that Grey needs to draw ectoplasm from the Nevernever - a detail noticeably absent from the Skinwalker fight in Turn Coat - and his comment about 'not choosing his father' are indications, I think, that he's only half-naagloshi, along with his chosen career as a strictly LN merc-for-hire. His comments about 'The Rent', capital R, seem to hint at said 'Rent' being more metaphorical, a karmic debt rather than a monetary one.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Those were the spots I was thinking of. The odd thing is that Anna Valmont used the same story herself.......... ALIENS TIME TRAVEL

At first I thought that this was just Dresden's error, but then, yeah, I noticed that Anna had the same story. So, either this is an author error (and a fairly large one, if so), or something strangeness going on...:smalleek:

[Lamech]

Just finished, so good, so tear jerky, so awesome new hopefully recurring character, so starwars, so tired talk later. any idea what all the artifacts were, I have a few thoughts but u wanted to pick someone's brain.

The artifacts, are the placard Jesus got when he was crucified, his crown, the Holy Grail, the Shroud of Turin, and the knife I'm not sure on, but I suspect its the Lance's tip placed into a wooden handle.

Also Butter's is now a (Jedi) Knight of the Cross. He has magic, super (Bob powered) tech, and a freaking light-saber.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

Aha! I hadn't thought of the Spear of Destiny as the knife...but that makes way too much sense. I'm sold on that.

The Crown of Thorns was obvious, and I figured out the INRI Sign easy enough.

But I think Dresden's wrong about the Shroud. I think that Artifact #4 is actually Veronica's Veil. It fits the description of "smaller" and "made of a lighter material" than the Shroud, and the records of Veronica's Veil completely lose track of it sometime around the 16th Century. Remember how Hades was said to be the collector of things that went missing?

Also, I had the same thought about the Demonreach prisoner.

[Dragonus45]

Aha! I hadn't thought of the Spear of Destiny as the knife...but that makes way too much sense. I'm sold on that.

The Crown of Thorns was obvious, and I figured out the INRI Sign easy enough.

But I think Dresden's wrong about the Shroud. I think that Artifact #4 is actually Veronica's Veil. It fits the description of "smaller" and "made of a lighter material" than the Shroud, and the records of Veronica's Veil completely lose track of it sometime around the 16th Century. Remember how Hades was said to be the collector of things that went missing?

Also, I had the same thought about the Demonreach prisoner.

My thought is that since they are going with the version of the Grail where its the cup used to catch Jesus' blood Veronica's Veil and the Spear make more sense. It cuts out everything before or after the Crucifixion like the last supper or the burial. It would also make the declaration that they are weapons make more sense, they were all involved in the death of a god.

[thorgrim29]

Well, there is the whole "time traveler" thing.... :smallwink:

So Harry has The Doctor prisoner under there? Willingly serving penance for killing his whole race?

[tomandtish]

Aha! I hadn't thought of the Spear of Destiny as the knife...but that makes way too much sense. I'm sold on that.

The Crown of Thorns was obvious, and I figured out the INRI Sign easy enough.

But I think Dresden's wrong about the Shroud. I think that Artifact #4 is actually Veronica's Veil. It fits the description of "smaller" and "made of a lighter material" than the Shroud, and the records of Veronica's Veil completely lose track of it sometime around the 16th Century. Remember how Hades was said to be the collector of things that went missing?

Also, I had the same thought about the Demonreach prisoner.

Good to know someone else agrees with me about the possibility of Veronica's veil.

So far consensus seems to be:
Placard hung around his neck (no disagreement noted)
Crown of Thorns (no disagreement noted)
Holy Grail (which interpretation of the Grail may be up for debate, but no debate that it is the Grail).
Spear of Longinus (Most probably is. Even my argument against it is mostly based on spears of that time being the wrong type to turn into a knife without reforging. So for the record, I agree it probably is, the description is probably a bad one though).
Shroud of Turin: Majority seem to feel it is this. There have been two votes for Veil of Veronica. Without knowing whether the previous one was a fake, we may not get an answer soon).

Also, I hope the prisoner in question isn't Merlin. That seems too obvious and cliched for my taste.

[Foeofthelance]

Re: Andi

Last time I saw Andi in anything was the short story Butcher did for Dangerous Women, where she ripped Molly a new one for basically abusing Butters and his apartment while doing her thing as the Rag Lady. It wouldn't surprise me at this point if she stayed in the other room because she was actively avoiding Harry, as well as possibly being the vocal source of a lot of Butters's fears about Harry. There's no real evidence for it in the book, just a general sort of feeling I got for where the character is going.

[Feytalist]

I like how everyone is just assuming this means Murphy and Harry are going to successfully hook up. Have we all forgotten who the main character is and who writes these books? This relationship is doomed before it even kicks off simply because Harry is involved. Odds are good she'll be dead before the end of Peace Talks, after sleeping together for real once to restore Harry's love-shield against the White Court. Poor naive fools.:smallcool:



Also, I think Butters is about to be Put On A Holy Bus. He's had less and less relevance to the story over time, just the back-alley-doctor Harry and Co. go to for patchups of illegally obtained injuries. Since Bob is his servant, this also gets Bob out of play, and it's a way to bring Butters back later for the Apocalyptic Trilogy (or sooner) while shuffling him offstage for now and forcing Harry to handle his own injuries for once. Bob and Bobbie interacting with each other is a recipe for disaster, so Bob needs to go for a bit until Bobbie is stable and healthy.

Both of these are roughly where my thoughts went as well. Especially Murphy. Nothing is ever that easy in Dresdenverse 0_o


Aha! I hadn't thought of the Spear of Destiny as the knife...but that makes way too much sense. I'm sold on that.

The Crown of Thorns was obvious, and I figured out the INRI Sign easy enough.

But I think Dresden's wrong about the Shroud. I think that Artifact #4 is actually Veronica's Veil. It fits the description of "smaller" and "made of a lighter material" than the Shroud, and the records of Veronica's Veil completely lose track of it sometime around the 16th Century. Remember how Hades was said to be the collector of things that went missing?

I *had* thought it could be the Veil (I just couldn't remember what it was called, heh), although dialogue with Anna implies that it really is the real Shroud. They could of course both by simply wrong, but I think there would have been a clearer hint in the text, in that case.


Was Nicodemus really after the Grail? Dresden mentions that he's too smart to telegraph his actual target like that, and when it comes to throw down, Nicky does ask Dresden to hand him the *knife*. (The knife also gets another sideways mention in the aftermath.)Thoughts?

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Was Nicodemus really after the Grail? Dresden mentions that he's too smart to telegraph his actual target like that, and when it comes to throw down, Nicky does ask Dresden to hand him the *knife*. (The knife also gets another sideways mention in the aftermath.)Thoughts?

I think that his target could have been all the relics (I shudder to think what he could have used them for), but he only mentioned the Grail to the others.

Here are my guesses for the artifacts: Like most people, I agree about the Placard and the crown of thorns. I also think that the cup is the Holy Chalice. For the cloth, I think it could be the Veil of Veronica. As for the knife, it is either the blade of the Spear of Destiny or the knife from the Last Supper.

[Chen]

Was Nicodemus really after the Grail? Dresden mentions that he's too smart to telegraph his actual target like that, and when it comes to throw down, Nicky does ask Dresden to hand him the *knife*. (The knife also gets another sideways mention in the aftermath.)Thoughts?

Nicodemus' goal
I agree that it was probably the knife/spear he wanted. When Dresden see's all the items the line is

"And I knew exactly what relic Nicodemus truly wanted"

This implies it almost certainly wasn't the grail. Him asking for the knife later just cements it I think

[Artemis97]

I have a theory about Harry's plans working out and such. He had the Spear of Longinus, which legend says the bearer of which cannot be defeated. So while he's got it up his sleeve in that last fight, his plan works. When Butters picks up his coat in the final face off against Nicodemus, the blade was still hidden up the sleeve, so he couldn't lose either and Nicodemus runs. I also think this is why Nicodemus wanted the knife specifically.

Also here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bV1FzVQ5cr0) is a youtube video interview with Jim Butcher about Skin Game. Spoilers ahead, so be warned.

[The Glyphstone]

I have a theory about Harry's plans working out and such. He had the Spear of Longinus, which legend says the bearer of which cannot be defeated. So while he's got it up his sleeve in that last fight, his plan works. When Butters picks up his coat in the final face off against Nicodemus, the blade was still hidden up the sleeve, so he couldn't lose either and Nicodemus runs. I also think this is why Nicodemus wanted the knife specifically.

Also here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bV1FzVQ5cr0) is a youtube video interview with Jim Butcher about Skin Game. Spoilers ahead, so be warned.

This makes way too much sense. Only a divine artifact could override Harry's propensity for disastrous failure.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

This makes way too much sense. Only a divine artifact could override Harry's propensity for disastrous failure.

This is the truest statement in the history of the Dresden Files ever.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

I've been learning a lot about Christian relics in the past few days from this thread.

[Eldan]

Nope. Nope. Nopenopenope.

Butters? FAITH? Seriously? That's just not a fit. I predicted Love and I still stand by that.

Has he ever demonstrated Faith? He mistrusted Harry, enough to spy on him. He doesn't have Faith in himself. He doesn't appear to be religious, either. He's just wrong for this sword.

And something else:

I had a veritable rollercoaster of possible identities going around in my head for Grey.

My first thought, based on the title, was that he might be a Skin Walker, just when he showed up and demonstrated his power. Then, I started thinking around for silly other ideas and Listens-to-Wind briefly occured to me and was discarded.

For a while after that, I thought he might be Odin. Not that I had guessed that Dresden had gone to him. But shapeshifter, bit of a womanizer, likes Dresden, thinks he's the most powerful thing in the room, "Grey" in his name... might have fit.

Then, I thought he might actually be Hades. That thought came when he said he was good enough to impersonate the financial person. Hades is also the god of wealth, Pluton. At least in Rome. Plus, "I thought breaking into my own vault could be fun, it's been thousands of years since I had much to do, after all" would have been a good twist and I just knew Hades had to show up.

Then, when it was revealed that Odin had smuggled him in, my mind immediately settled on Loki. Especially when he turned into a horse. Because come on, that was perfect.

Oh well. Could have been a double bluff, still.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

Nope. Nope. Nopenopenope.

Butters? FAITH? Seriously? That's just not a fit. I predicted Love and I still stand by that.

Has he ever demonstrated Faith? He mistrusted Harry, enough to spy on him. He doesn't have Faith in himself. He doesn't appear to be religious, either. He's just wrong for this sword.

I'm guessing this is gonna be one of those cases where the Sword finds someone who's a better fit than any of us realized.

[Eldan]

I can totally see Butters as a Knight. I was hoping for him to become one. But he's so much the knight of love, whereas he has never shown any faith.

[Socratov]

I can totally see Butters as a Knight. I was hoping for him to become one. But he's so much the knight of love, whereas he has never shown any faith.
Why? i mean, why is he so much the knight of love when faith (in himself, or his friends) has been so much of an issue throughout the books? Is there anything I missed in my reasoning (see below)?


I think Fiddellacchius is a fitting sword for Butters. I mean earlier he was forced by Murphy to pick a side: be wary of one's friends, or loyal to one's friends. right after he screwed up the the meeting between Harry, Murphy and the rest of the crew. Right there he didn't trust Harry one bit, and took action, until after the heist where he sees that Harry is still one of the good guys and that Butters should have trusted him. Butters simply should have had a little more faith in Harry: one of his oldest friends. It's right there and then that he makes the choice Murphy posted to him earlier: he decides to trust his friends and choose loyalty. It's right there that his resolve hardens. Butters doesn't so much have faith in the hebrew god, but in his friends (more specifically Harry). I really think that if there is one sword fitting for Butters it's this one.

Also, I think the last time Harry has had any coitus is a lot of books ago, so I expect he will at least get laid at least once so he can blow off steam. Besides, I expect his relationship with Murphy to flourish to keep the mantle of the Winter Knight a bit more docile. Plus anyone knows Harry needs to get freaky.

[Eldan]

He lacked faith. Sure, he came down on the side of his friends, in the end. But first, he doubted Harry and spied on him. And he constantly talks about how he thinks that he's weak. No faith in himself.

As for Love... it became quite clear to me in Dead Beat, especially, when they talked more about Butters' background. He can't be a Doctor, because he can't stand to see people in pain. He stops Harry from killing Cassius because he thinks even the snake sorcerer deserves mercy and life.

[datalaughing]

He lacked faith. Sure, he came down on the side of his friends, in the end. But first, he doubted Harry and spied on him. And he constantly talks about how he thinks that he's weak. No faith in himself.

As for Love... it became quite clear to me in Dead Beat, especially, when they talked more about Butters' background. He can't be a Doctor, because he can't stand to see people in pain. He stops Harry from killing Cassius because he thinks even the snake sorcerer deserves mercy and life.

It has nothing to do with faith in his friends or in religion or any of that. Uriel explains it in the book:

"Uriel smiled again. 'I must admit,' he said, 'I never foresaw that particular form of faith being expressed under my purview.'
'Belief in a freaking movie?' I asked him.
'Belief in a story,' Uriel said, 'of good confronting evil, of light overcoming darkness, of love transcending hate.' He tilted his head. 'Isn't that where all faith begins?'

Butters had faith in an ideal, about good and evil and how the world worked.

[Mauve Shirt]

I pretty much agree with you Eldan.
I would have pegged him for Hope, but yeah. Faith when he's spent the entire book, 2 books at this point, not trusting Harry at all? Sure he has GREAT reasons not to trust Harry (broke into his house, beat up his girlfriend, stole his skull) but he spent this entire book being frustratingly faithless in his friends.
RATHER LIKE Murphy in Ghost Story. Everyone was all annoyed at her behavior, not believing Ghost Harry was legit. That's what Butters was like in this book. And they completely sidelined Murphy.
"Gaining faith at the moment of touching the sword" doesn't seem like a good qualification. But whatever, God (and Jim) works in mysterious ways.

[Socratov]

He lacked faith. Sure, he came down on the side of his friends, in the end. But first, he doubted Harry and spied on him. And he constantly talks about how he thinks that he's weak. No faith in himself.

As for Love... it became quite clear to me in Dead Beat, especially, when they talked more about Butters' background. He can't be a Doctor, because he can't stand to see people in pain. He stops Harry from killing Cassius because he thinks even the snake sorcerer deserves mercy and life.


I pretty much agree with you Eldan.
I would have pegged him for Hope, but yeah. Faith when he's spent the entire book, 2 books at this point, not trusting Harry at all? Sure he has GREAT reasons not to trust Harry (broke into his house, beat up his girlfriend, stole his skull) but he spent this entire book being frustratingly faithless in his friends.
RATHER LIKE Murphy in Ghost Story. Everyone was all annoyed at her behavior, not believing Ghost Harry was legit. That's what Butters was like in this book. And they completely sidelined Murphy.
"Gaining faith at the moment of touching the sword" doesn't seem like a good qualification. But whatever, God (and Jim) works in mysterious ways.

I've always read the swords focal point being providence. Being there at the right time, in the right place. Butters was exactly that. He stepped up, he found his resolve and he found his faith in his friends, and rooted it firmly in his faith in the story: in good vs. evil. It's exactly this act that makes him a perfect candidate for the sword of faith. Much like Sanya, it's the act of finding your faith/hope that enables you to be a candidate. Sanya was a Knight of the Blackened Denarius and lost all hope of redemption before he found the hope of redeeming himself earning himself a Knighthood of the Cross. The same with Butters: he stepped up, found his faith, sprinkled in a bit of self sacrifice, Butters Knight of Faith is born.

As for hope: he had none, and Love, yes he loves Andy, but for the rest he's bit of a cynical bastard. (which is why it's so fitting he's adopting the guise of batman when fighting crime).

[Eldan]

He doesn't just love Andy. He loves everyone. He can't operate on people because he feels their pain. And he stops Harry from executing villains because he sees the good in them.

[tomandtish]

It has nothing to do with faith in his friends or in religion or any of that. Uriel explains it in the book:

"Uriel smiled again. 'I must admit,' he said, 'I never foresaw that particular form of faith being expressed under my purview.'
'Belief in a freaking movie?' I asked him.
'Belief in a story,' Uriel said, 'of good confronting evil, of light overcoming darkness, of love transcending hate.' He tilted his head. 'Isn't that where all faith begins?'

Butters had faith in an ideal, about good and evil and how the world worked.

I think datalaughing has hit it right on the head though. There are many different expressions of faith. Butters has been moving pretty much towards the belief that good can always fight evil, and that if you do the right thing then things will work out. And that’s the power of the sword of faith.


I pretty much agree with you Eldan.
I would have pegged him for Hope, but yeah. Faith when he's spent the entire book, 2 books at this point, not trusting Harry at all? Sure he has GREAT reasons not to trust Harry (broke into his house, beat up his girlfriend, stole his skull) but he spent this entire book being frustratingly faithless in his friends.
RATHER LIKE Murphy in Ghost Story. Everyone was all annoyed at her behavior, not believing Ghost Harry was legit. That's what Butters was like in this book. And they completely sidelined Murphy.
"Gaining faith at the moment of touching the sword" doesn't seem like a good qualification. But whatever, God (and Jim) works in mysterious ways.

But to me Butters did still demonstrate faith. He’s still patching Harry up and helping even if he’s not certain where Harry's loyalties lie anymore. He had doubts, but who doesn’t. But he’s still doing the right thing and trusting that it all turns out OK in the end. Sure, he has doubts about Harry. Michael has in the past as well. He was more discrete about expressing them, but he’s had them. Faith (and love and hope for that matter) don’t require that you keep silent. It requires that you still take the leap.

(Note: before anyone starts comparing Michael and Butters, I’d point that Michael is probably as close to as perfect a Paladin that exists outside true D&D based literature, and he could probably wield any of the swords without problem).

And that’s why Murphy fails. In the end she couldn’t trust that if she did the right thing it would turn out OK. She didn’t have the faith required to spare Nicky, and as a result she does the wrong thing.

It’s OK that Butter’s has doubts. Faith isn’t knowing that everything will turn out OK. It’s BELIEVING that everything will turn out OK, often even when common sense is telling you otherwise

[The Glyphstone]

Everyone seems hung up on how Butters wasn't demonstrating Faith in Skin Games. But what about the rest of the series? When we first met him, he was languishing on the night shift at the morgue, despised by his boss, and fresh off a six-month stay in the loony bin because he believed, and shared his belief, that the Velvet Room fire contained non-human yet humanoid corpses. Sure, it's relatively mild in historical terms, but he was persecuted for his faith in what he saw and believed he saw. After that, he trusted Harry - the guy who saved his life repeatedly, totally, to the point of playing polka drums for him on the back of a zombie dinosaur. He's got a lot of Love, but he's always been one of the most binary characters in looking at the world...there are the Good Guys, himself and his friends, and the Bad Guys, the ones they fight. His faith was damaged by Harry's transformation into the Winter Knight, because Winter was Bad, so that meant Harry was Bad when he had been Good - but it left a void in the Good Guy roster, and Butters turned Magic Batman stepped up to fill those shoes as best he could...he didn't have faith in Harry anymore, but he had faith in himself for once as more than a sidekick.

[Eldan]

Except, you know. When Thomas makes his whole "He's a coward" speech about Butters, he takes that argument apart. Sure, Butters went to the loony bin. But, as Thomas says, they only let him out because he admitted that he was wrong.

[The Glyphstone]

Except, you know. When Thomas makes his whole "He's a coward" speech about Butters, he takes that argument apart. Sure, Butters went to the loony bin. But, as Thomas says, they only let him out because he admitted that he was wrong.


Courage =/= Faith, though they usually go hand in hand. Thomas doesn't really take the argument apart so much as reinforce it...Butter was a coward who believed, and knew he was helpless in the face of what he was believing, which tore him apart. He 'admitted' he was wrong, but it's pretty clear from his first scene that he just said that to get out - he adapts way too quickly to the plagues and zombies to be an honest skeptic. Death Masks Butters would not have been Knight material by any means. But the potential was there, is all I'm saying, and it's grown over the years. Skin Games was his ultimate, literal, 'crisis of faith', and when he overcame it, he was finally worthy of the Sword.

Star Wars is fundamentally about Good vs. Evil, but it's also about Redemption, bringing Evil back to the Light. It's a perfect metaphor for how he sees the world...and really, it's not any weirder than Sanya the Russian atheist with the Sword of Hope.

[Lamech]

Except, you know. When Thomas makes his whole "He's a coward" speech about Butters, he takes that argument apart. Sure, Butters went to the loony bin. But, as Thomas says, they only let him out because he admitted that he was wrong.

Thomas was an idiot. Its called deception. People who believe you crazy won't listen to the truth. So you lie. And then you're out and you can do something about it. Let's not mistake stupid for bravery. You might as well call Thomas a coward since he didn't fight the Wild Hunt. Or Harry a coward since he didn't charge into the Outside to slay every last Outsider.

[tomandtish]

Thomas was an idiot. Its called deception. People who believe you crazy won't listen to the truth. So you lie. And then you're out and you can do something about it. Let's not mistake stupid for bravery. You might as well call Thomas a coward since he didn't fight the Wild Hunt. Or Harry a coward since he didn't charge into the Outside to slay every last Outsider.

Exactly. After all, I think we can safely assume that when Harry and Michael were arrested in Grave Peril, Michael didn’t just tell the cops “Oh yes, we were up there exorcising Ghosts”. If you do that too often you start spending 72 fun-filled hours enjoying the sights and sounds of the local mental health wards.

Yes, Butters probably recanted his story. Only way to save his job. On the other hand, despite his fear in the same book he stood his ground between Harry and Cassius. Say what you want, that took guts. If we’re holding that against him as a lack of faith (and therefore he’s not worthy of the sword), Murphy constantly doubted harry during the first three books, and pretty much all of the gang doubted him during Small Favor. But given the situations at those times, they were right to have doubts.

Faith and common sense are not mutually exclusive. Or as Michael says “My faith protects me. My Kevlar helps”.

[Thrawn183]

Butter's real failing is his loss of hope, not faith. The whole point was how much he believed in Harry, and how disappointed he was when things didn't get better upon Harry's return. His hopes were dashed. Butter still never gave up the good fight, he just didn't have any hope of success.

[Ronnoc]

I had a veritable rollercoaster of possible identities going around in my head for Grey.

My first thought, based on the title, was that he might be a Skin Walker, just when he showed up and demonstrated his power. Then, I started thinking around for silly other ideas and Listens-to-Wind briefly occured to me and was discarded.

For a while after that, I thought he might be Odin. Not that I had guessed that Dresden had gone to him. But shapeshifter, bit of a womanizer, likes Dresden, thinks he's the most powerful thing in the room, "Grey" in his name... might have fit.

Then, I thought he might actually be Hades. That thought came when he said he was good enough to impersonate the financial person. Hades is also the god of wealth, Pluton. At least in Rome. Plus, "I thought breaking into my own vault could be fun, it's been thousands of years since I had much to do, after all" would have been a good twist and I just knew Hades had to show up.

Then, when it was revealed that Odin had smuggled him in, my mind immediately settled on Loki. Especially when he turned into a horse. Because come on, that was perfect.

Oh well. Could have been a double bluff, still.


Pesonally speaking I think the British accented prisoner on demon reach is Loki. The Merlin was a pupil of Odin's and Loki is supposed to be imprisoned underground. With Odin playing such a large role lately I have to expect that the trickster/herald of the Apocalypse from Norse Mythology is going to turn up eventually.

[Rakaydos]

Pesonally speaking I think the British accented prisoner on demon reach is Loki. The Merlin was a pupil of Odin's and Loki is supposed to be imprisoned underground. With Odin playing such a large role lately I have to expect that the trickster/herald of the Apocalypse from Norse Mythology is going to turn up eventually.

"Only 4 people can fill that team role, two have other contracts, and one is detained"

Edit: and totally a missed joke: "This... is the Father's Lightsaber. He wanted you to have it, when you were ready..."