[D&D 3.5] UA Bloodlines and Level Swapping

[Kevingway]

An interesting idea occurred to me, but I'm trying to fathom the rules on bloodlines. I know that there are many handbooks and explanations detailing bloodlines, but I need to ask this question here for the sake of completion (and a straightforward answer):

When taking levels of bloodline, are you taking a level in your current class (or a class you decide to take) and stripping away that class's benefits simply for the level of bloodline, or is the bloodline actually a "class?"

For example, this is the difference between a Monk 5 and a Monk 2/Bloodline 3. By my assumptions, it would come out as Monk 5, but I have to clarify.

Now, say we were talking a major bloodline with a Paladin. This Paladin reaches level 12 and is able to swap out 10 of his class levels for those of a Blackguard (someone correct me if I'm wrong on this as well). What happens to the bloodline levels? Do they simply disappear? Do I gain the benefits of the bloodline without the original sacrifice I made for them as a Paladin (assuming I took them at the levels that were swapped out)? Do these bloodline levels imprint themselves on the equivalent levels of the new class? (So if I took my first bloodline level at Paladin 3, it would swap itself into my Blackguard 3.)

It's some theorycrafting I'm doing. Thanks for any responses!

[AuraTwilight]

It's basically Super Level Adjustment.

[Kevingway]

Which, in turn, answers the question how...? :smallannoyed:

[Shadroth]

To advance a bloodline, you are required to take Bloodline "Class Levels" at certain points in the character's career. They aren't treated as Character Levels.

If it works the way I think it does, you take a Bloodline level instead of gaining a class level when you reach enough XP to otherwise gain a new level. You don't actually gain any class levels, you still count as a character of your current level, but you need to advance to the next tier of XP to gain your next level.

For example, a 2nd level character who reaches 3k XP could level up to 3. Instead, you take a Bloodline level, stay at level 2, and now require a total of 6k XP to reach level 3. Unless I'm missing something.

So I see why AuraTwilight called it "super level adjustment", because it makes you take a lot longer to gain the XP required to reach the next level, even though you gain more XP for being a "lower level" than your other party members.

Either way, you gain the benefits of the Bloodlines listed bonuses, and you may add your Bloodline "levels" to "effective class level" for caster levels, save DCs and other effects dependant on level. It also increases your maximum skill ranks allowed as if you had gained a level.

[Kevingway]

Alright, that makes sense. So essentially you wouldn't "skip levels" in a class, to say, take an empty level of Paladin (so you swap our Paladin 3 with a Bloodline level, for example) to then in your next level up take Paladin 4.

I interpret things in a crazy way, and this has never really been as clear to me as I'd originally thought.

[Red Fel]

From the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/bloodlines.htm):


Before a character with a bloodline reaches the indicated character level, he must take one class level of "bloodline." Class levels of "bloodline" do not increase a character's character level the way a normal class level does, but they do provide certain benefits (see below).

If the character does not take a class level of bloodline before reaching the character level indicated on the table, he gains no further bloodline traits and must take a 20% penalty on all future XP gains. As soon as he meets the minimum bloodline level, he gains all bloodline abilities due him according to his character level, and the XP penalty no longer applies.

Translation: Taking a Bloodline means that, before X level (as defined on the table), you must take a "class level" of that bloodline, or else take an XP penalty.


A bloodline level grants no increase in base attack bonus or base save bonuses, no hit points or skill points, and no class features. It counts as a normal class level (with no class skills) for the purpose of determining maximum skill ranks. Levels of bloodline never result in XP penalties for multiclass characters.

Include the character's bloodline level when calculating any character ability based on his class levels (such as caster level for spellcasting characters, or save DCs for characters with special abilities whose DCs are based on class level). The character doesn't gain any abilities, spells known, or spells per day from the addition of his bloodline levels, though—only the calculations of his level-based abilities are affected.

If a character has levels in two or more classes in addition to his bloodline levels, each class gains the benefit of adding the bloodline levels when calculating abilities.

For example, a 2nd-level sorcerer with a major bloodline takes a bloodline level when earns enough XP to advance in level. He is treated as a 3rd-level spellcaster for the purpose of spell durations, caster level checks, and so forth. But he doesn't gain a 3rd-level sorcerer's spells per day or spells known.

Similarly, the stunning attacks of a 3rd-level monk with one bloodline level have a save DC equal to 12 (10 + one-half class level) plus her Wisdom modifier, since the bloodline level is treated as if it were a monk class level when calculating the save DC. A 3rd-level monk/3rd-level sorcerer with two bloodline levels would be treated as a 5th-level spellcaster and a 5th-level monk for determining level-based abilities.

Translation: A Bloodline Level counts as a class level for any purpose relying on class levels. It does not grant any benefits of taking a level in a class; it is taken in place of taking a class level. However, unlike taking a level in a single class, it gives the benefits of additional class levels to each class that relies on them, which can be very helpful for a multiclass character.

This means that, in theory, if you take a Major Bloodline, the three requisite Bloodline Levels will add to your class levels to total 20; thus, you can only take 17 class levels on top of the 3 Bloodline Levels.

I know I'm confused. How're you doing?

[Shadroth]

So essentially you wouldn't "skip levels" in a class, to say, take an empty level of Paladin (so you swap our Paladin 3 with a Bloodline level, for example) to then in your next level up take Paladin 4.

Not at all.

0 XP = Paladin 1
1K XP = Paladin 2
3K XP = Paladin 3
6K XP = Paladin 3, Bloodline 1 (still only ECL3)
10K XP = Paladin 4, Bloodline 1 (ECL4)
15K XP = Paladin 5, Bloodline 1 (ECL5)
21K XP = Paladin 6, Bloodline 1 (ECL6)
28K XP = Paladin 7, Bloodline 1 (ECL7)
36K XP = Paladin 7, Bloodline 2 (still ECL7)
45K XP = Paladin 8, Bloodline 2 (ECL8)

So while you could have been a level 10 Paladin, you're only level 8. If you're in a party with level 10 characters, you're gaining XP faster, but have to reach the same points to level up as you would otherwise.

Bloodline levels do not count as character levels, and do not add to your Effective Character Level (ECL). They do stack with your class levels when you work out how powerful any abilities you possess that rely on class level are. If you are a multi-class character already, then you can "stack" the bloodline levels to all classes for this purpose.

Lastly, because they don't increase your actual character level, there is nothing stopping you from having your bloodline levels and still attaining 20 class levels. It will just take you longer, because by the time you are level 19 with 3 bloodline levels, it will take you a further 22K XP (to a career total of 253K) to advance to your 20th class level.

[nedz]

It is very confusing.

Bloodlines do add to ECL but that is only used for XP calculations etc.

They do add to Class Level and Character Level for all abilities which depend on those variables.

They are not HD: so they don't give BAB or Saving Throw progression, nor do they give HP or skill points — though they do increase skill point maximums.

They do not progress class features of other classes.

[Thuphinlok]

Hey all. I'm new to the forums so please let me know if I should be looking elsewhere for this, but on the topic of Bloodlines. . . if they don't 'count' as a class level, and they don't affect your ECL, are they considered a LA and thus subject to LA buyoff? Or, do you basically just hold your current level, and are now calculated at a lower level for future XP gain? IE your party is all at level 10, and you are Monk 8/Bloodline 2, are you calc'd at lvl 8 or 10?

[AuraTwilight]

Bloodlines do add to your ECL for XP purposes; no you can't use LA Buyoff on them, as they're a separate mechanic.

[Gemini476]

Remember to buy off all three bloodline levels before level 2 for 3000XP and you'll do fine.

Unless you really want to progress multiple class features, I guess.

[TuggyNE]

Bloodlines do add to your ECL for XP purposes; no you can't use LA Buyoff on them, as they're a separate mechanic.

They require XP to gain them, yes, but they do not seem to increase your ECL for the purpose of determining how much XP you need to gain for your next level, nor for calculating how much XP you get for encounters.

[Telok]

The best way I can figure out to explain it is thus.

1) Write down your XP in the following format "XP: Real(A), Blood(B), Current(C)"
2) Write down your XP gains in the C spot.
3) When A + C is enough for you to gain a level you choose to move that XP to either A or B.
4) If you moved the XP to the A spot then you gain a real class level, if it's in the B spot you gained a Bloodline level.
5) Make sure C is zeroed (or at whatever overflow after gaining the level) when you finish levelling up.

Example:
We start with a wizard, his level and XP look like this: Wizard 1 - XP: Real=0, Blood=0, Current=0
He adventures for 500xp, now he looks like this: Wizard 1 - XP: Real=0, Blood=0, Current=500
He gets another 600xp for whatever: Wizard 1 - XP: Real=0, Blood=0, Current=1100
He chooses to take a Bloodline level: Wizard 1/Bloodline 1 - XP: Real=0, Blood=1000, Current=100
The only things that change are that his caster level is now 2 and his maximun class skill ranks are now 5. The Bloodline level grants nothing else.
Another adventure and he gains another 900xp: Wizard 1/Bloodline 1 - XP: Real=0, Blood=1000, Current=1000
He chooses to level up in Druid: Wizard 1/Bloodline 1/Druid 1 - XP: Real=1000, Blood=1000, Current=0
His caster level in both wizard and druid is now 2 and his maximum class skill ranks are at 6.
When this guy's "Current=" xp is 2000+ he can choose to gain either another class level or a bloodline level.

Also, is it me or is your choice of bloodline essentially going to boil down to A) character fluff where you get the first three perks for free, or B) part of a build where you look at the 2nd, 8th, and/or 10th level abilites to get a prereq feat and an energy resistance or (Ex) water breathing? I'm really mostly looking at the major bloodlines because the minors are essentially nothing and the intermediates, except for somehting like the Stone Giant one, aren't much more than nothing.

[Swaoeaeieu]

Bloodlines give you some nice bonuses and reasons to roleplay and they are worded quite confusingly, but there are a lot of confusing things in DnD.

The way i see it is as follows:
You play normally for 2 levels but with some extra perks. Then, when all your buddy's pay 3000 xp to go to level 3. You pay 3000 xp to stay level 2. Except when a class skill uses words allong the line of "use your class level" your can use the number 3 instead of 2.

You still get exp as if you are level 2. still need 3000 xp to level up to level 3. You just had to 'pay a fee and take a break' as a price of the cool stuff you get.

same goes for level 6 and 12. when the rest of the party would go from 5 to 6. you go from 5 to 5 with 2 bloodline levels. And later on go to 6 with 2 bloodline levels.

i dont have the SRD memorised so i can't quote on this. but this is how i read it when i was building a new char last week.

[shaikujin]

Just wanted to add that I'm also of the opinion that Bloodlines do not raise ECL.

So if we take all 3 bloodlines levels instead of raising to Paladin 2, it simply reduces the advancement by 3,000 xp.


0 xp, Pal 1 (ECL 1)
1k xp, Pal 1, Bloodline 1 (ECL 1)
2k xp, Pal 1, Bloodline 2 (still ECL 1)
3k xp, Pal 1, Bloodline 3 (still ECL 1)
4k xp, Pal 2, Bloodline 3 (ECL 2)
6k xp, Pal 3, Bloodline 3 (ECL 3)
9k xp, Pal 4, Bloodline 3 (ECL 4)
13k xp, Pal 5, Bloodline 3 (ECL 5)
Etc

Taking these levels early is an optimal use of XP if your mind is already set to take Bloodline levels, and great at higher levels, but at low level parties (unless all members also take Bloodline levels), we will be pitting a 1 HD Paladin against ECL 2 and 3 encounters.

If the Paladin can't survive long enough to reach higher levels, he won't get a chance to take advantage of the Bloodline bonus. Sort of a gamble.

[Swaoeaeieu]

Just wanted to add that I'm also of the opinion that Bloodlines do not raise ECL.

So if we take all 3 bloodlines levels instead of raising to Paladin 2, it simply reduces the advancement by 3,000 xp.


0 xp, Pal 1 (ECL 1)
1k xp, Pal 1, Bloodline 1 (ECL 1)
2k xp, Pal 1, Bloodline 2 (still ECL 1)
3k xp, Pal 1, Bloodline 3 (still ECL 1):smallfrown:
4k xp, Pal 2, Bloodline 3 (ECL 2)
6k xp, Pal 3, Bloodline 3 (ECL 3)
9k xp, Pal 4, Bloodline 3 (ECL 4)
13k xp, Pal 5, Bloodline 3 (ECL 5)
Etc

Taking these levels early is an optimal use of XP if your mind is already set to take Bloodline levels, and great at higher levels, but at low level parties (unless all members also take Bloodline levels), we will be pitting a 1 HD Paladin against ECL 2 and 3 encounters.

If the Paladin can't survive long enough to reach higher levels, he won't get a chance to take advantage of the Bloodline bonus. Sort of a gamble.

are you allowed to take the bloodline levels early? i thought you could only take the first at level 3 or later. second at level 6 or later and the third at level 12 or later.

[shaikujin]

Yup, it actually says the Bloodline levels have to be taken before reaching level 3, 6 and 12. There's no mention of the minimum levels that the character must already have before taking each Bloodline level.

Taking them while at level 1 means they are taken before reaching level 3, 6 and 12.

[the_insomniac]

they most certainly DO count towards ecl. when they say they dont increase character level normally, BUT here are some benefits, its just a poorly worded "here's something bad, BUT here's something good"....what is meant is this: when u increase in character level, u go through a process of "leveling up" (described in the player's handbook on page 58) but when u take a level of bloodline, its different. no hd, no saves, no class features, etc. what happens is this: (before i explain, people should know that when u level up, your xp doesnt "reset" to 0. as u gain xp, u hit "checkpoints" so to speak. when u hit these "checkpoints", u "level up".) now, when a 2nd level character with a "bloodline" has gained enough xp to level up to a 3rd level character, they have to take a level of bloodline (assuming they havnt yet). IF the level of bloodline DIDNT count towards ecl, then you would have a rogue2/bloodline1 (or whatever2/bloodline1) with an ecl 2 but enough xp to level up. so, the whatever2/bloodline1 would then take the 3rd level of rogue (or whatever), and go through the process of leveling up (marking increases to hp, saves, bab, skills, etc). now, what this would look like is this: dm: "u need to take a level of bloodline now", and the player would say "ok" and then just take the 3rd level of rogue (or whatever), and mark down the benefit granted by the bloodline at character level 3. "taking a level of bloodline" would then be a process entirely composed of NOTHING! now, on page 19 of unearthed arcana, it explains what the penalties are for NOT taking a level of bloodline by the deadline given. there IS a downside to NOT taking the level on time, so, that means it's POSSIBLE to NOT take the level on time. so why wouldnt someone meet the deadline for taking the bloodline level? maybe their character REALLY needs another HD in order to keep surviving, who knows, but the point is this: bloodlines are NOT just "free benefits". they come at a cost. that cost is outlined in the first paragraph under the heading "bloodline levels" on page 19 of unearthed arcana. a static la ISNT ENOUGH. that's what it says. and these bloodline levels ARE worse, as they cant be reduced through la buyoff (natually, since they are levels, not level adjustments). some people just cant accept the way things are. for example, all these people who think they can cast higher level spells with an illumian extra spell slot trick or whatever. theres this cool little sentence on page 8 of the player's handbook "....Intelligence score of 15, so she’s smart enough to get one bonus 1st level spell and one bonus 2nd-level spell. (She will not actually get the 2nd-level spell until she is 3rd level wizard, since that’s the minimum level a wizard must be to cast 2nd-level spells.)" now, heighten spell is in THAT book. so if u have a bonus 2nd level spell slot from a 15 int, and the feat heighten spell, can u heighten magic missile to 2nd level and cast it? ABSOLUTELY NOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! END. OF. DISCUSSION. there is NO argument to that, and there is NO argument to the fact that bloodlines are NOT as cheap as level adjustments!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Agent 451]

Holy wall of text, Batman.

http://sd.keepcalm-o-matic.co.uk/i/keep-calm-and-use-punctuation-13.png

[nedz]

Wall of Text indeed — but also, thread necromancy.

[Swaoeaeieu]

Holy wall of text, Batman.

http://sd.keepcalm-o-matic.co.uk/i/keep-calm-and-use-punctuation-13.png

couldnt agree more. all i see is a wall and some angry things. to make a point about a thread so old you should make a new thread, and then use some formatting to keep your argument better to keep track off...

also thread necro, frowned upon on these forums..