PF Druid Role change.

[Gnaeus]

Background: So I enter an ongoing campaign at level 9 (now level 10). Campaign is Gestalt, but one side of Gestalt must be Rogue (we are in a Thieves Guild.). I am told that they need a healer who is willing to deal with Undead, and extra melee umph. Brain processes this: (Need good fort & will saves, healing, casting, multiple attacks for sneak damage) Druid! I build what Treantmonk would call a "Spirit of the Beast" a good melee druid, and it works quite well. Very pleased with its performance. I follow the local equivalent to the Horseman of Pestilence. TLDR Version: Level 10 Druid (Blight)//Rogue (Scout).

So then, their main caster dies, due to a battle with a dragon where some amazingly unlucky die rolls occur. (a 1 on a save vs. confusion, some great results on an aoo that penetrate his miss chance and mirror image, crit.) So now, instead of "Backup caster, emergency healer, face eater" I get to play "Primary caster". This is not a role that Druids are awesome at in PF, and especially high level druids who were built for melee.

Sources: PFSRD. DM makes some homebrew, particularly in the form of high level legacy type weapons. Mine give me an extra 5' reach in all forms, Contagion 3/day as a swift, and an aura that raises the save DC for disease type effects. No 3.5.

My feats and rogue talents: Bonus feat history-Run, Craft Wondrous Item, Improved Familiar-Cacodaemon, Improved Initiative, Natural Spell, Rogue Ability-Evasion, Rogue Ability-Scout-Scout's Charge, Rogue Ability-Scout-Skirmisher, Rogue Ability-Survivalist-Endure Elements, Rogue Ability-Survivalist-Hardy, Rogue talent- Ninja Trick-Pressure Points, Rogue Talent-Bleeding Attack, Rogue Talent-Fast Stleath, Rogue talent-MultiAttack, Rogue Talent-Weapon Training-Bite, Skill Focus -Stleath (human bonus feat), Skill Focus-Knowledge-Planes, Wild Speech, Greater Rogue Talent: Bonus Feat: Hellcat Stealth.

So the questions: 1. What can I do to pick up the slack as primary caster? From what I can see, the PF druid party buffs are pitiful to nonexistent. Lacking even Augment Summoning, my summons seem pretty weaksauce compared with a round of charge/pounce 3-4 attacks with sneak attack. I have some limited battlefield control (the next long phase of campaign will be 2 months on ship with frequent encounters, followed by a time in the city) but again, very little that seems worth a round. My familiar can Commune, but no other good divinations. All my items are static buffs to help me eat faces, so no rods, no wands worth using in combat. I don't have UMD, but everyone else in the party has it in spades.

Retraining is a thing, but will take time that could otherwise go to crafting, so it would need to really help. I have Craft Wondrous and that is all. My Int is pretty low, so my spellcraft (while maxed) is not stellar.

What we have is a couple months of time and lots of money. My crafting thoughts included making a Giants Mask for Troll Form so I would at least have a hand for a Rod if I made one, or a Book of Marvelous Recipes for some Hero's Feast (even if it is much worse in PF).

At 11, I will get another feat. My thoughts were:
Combat Reflexes (Great for a huge creature with extra reach and high dex, but doesn't help me casting)
Quicken Spell (always good, but would probably just be used to convert 5th level slots to quickened fog clouds for battlefield control and sneak attack (I have fogcutter goggles)
Dazing Spell (Probably my best pure control option, but does nothing for anything but blasting)
Craft Rods (Metamagic rods could maybe help me be a better caster, and this is the only way I am likely to get them).

Last note: The city has banned spellcasting unless you are part of Wizard's guild, which I will not be allowed to be. So after our voyage is done, I will not be allowed to let anyone see me casting anything while we are in the city on penalty of death. I had planned to either wildshape into a horse for hoof/hoof/bite or into a Monkey and hide in someone's backpack with a hole for me to buff my mount through, while my Cacodaemon familiar flies around invisible and telepathically updates me on what is going on. Since being a caster is illegal, I expect to be unable to buy any magic items that are highly caster-centric like metamagic rods, probably ever.

So I am interested in any advice that can help. Spell selection, Feat selection for 11 or for retraining, anything that I can craft (after I finish my headband of Wis +6) that will help.

[Psyren]

Druids have plenty of control even without the summons. Entangle. Fog spells. Mudball. Faerie Fire. Gust of Wind. Soften Earth & Stone. Wind Wall. Sleet Storm. Spike Growth. Aqueous Orb. Obsidian Flow. You also get plenty of nice blasts like Flame Sphere, Flamestrike, Call/Ball Lightning, Volcanic Storm etc.

They also have plenty of buffs. Everyone will love you for Cat's Grace and Barkskin, and you also get Protection from Energy, the Restoration line, Air Walk, Stoneskin, etc. And all of that is ignoring the domains and domain powers you can get, plus the fact that you can cast all of these while perched up in a tree as an eagle or flying overhead or something.

[Gnaeus]

Druids have plenty of control even without the summons. Entangle. Fog spells. Mudball. Faerie Fire. Gust of Wind. Soften Earth & Stone. Wind Wall. Sleet Storm. Spike Growth. Aqueous Orb. Obsidian Flow. You also get plenty of nice blasts like Flame Sphere, Flamestrike, Call/Ball Lightning, Volcanic Storm etc.

Entangle/spike growth are not helpful on a boat. Nor do I expect they will be in the city. Soften Earth and Stone or Obsidian Flow may be helpful in the city, except that I will not be able to be seen casting spells then. Fog Cloud is useful to me (since with my fogcutter glasses it helps me sneak attack people), but my party hates it, since it kills THEIR sneak attack. I do keep a wind wall on hand, but haven't met any archers yet.


You also get plenty of nice blasts like Flame Sphere, Flamestrike, Call/Ball Lightning, Volcanic Storm etc.

They were vastly impressed by my Fire Snake the one time I cast it, and I keep a flamestrike on standby (although again, it doesn't impress me much). On the rest of those, without Dazing spell, I'm sorry, they seem pretty useless. A move action to do 2d6/round with a move action and a reflex save when my full attack as a Megaraptor averages more than 28d6 if all 4 attacks hit? Or a standard for 3d6? Yuck!


They also have plenty of buffs. Everyone will love you for Cat's Grace and Barkskin, and you also get Protection from Energy, the Restoration line, Air Walk, Stoneskin, etc. And all of that is ignoring the domains and domain powers you can get, plus the fact that you can cast all of these while perched up in a tree as an eagle or flying overhead or something.

Yes, any 10th level thief without a + dex item would indeed like Cats Grace. I don't have any domains, I have a familiar, chosen for his Commune, his ability to eat people's souls, and his ability to become an invisible snake for a flanking partner. I would have to retrain the class feature and the feat I spent on it for a domain to even be viable. If you have a suggestion as to something that would actually be worth that I would like to hear it. Restoration isn't a buff, last time I checked, and its combat use is negligable with a 3 round casting time. I keep a Protection from Energy Communal, an Air Walk Communal, and a Barkskin on hand, but the protection and Air Walk are very situational, and none of them are particularly worth casting in combat. (Remember, everyone in the party has Evasion, high dex, and a good Reflex save).

[Psyren]

Well the megaraptor requires melee and a full-attack to do all that, while the Flame Sphere can be done at range and you can cast other spells even while directing it, all with just one slot. There's more factors at play there than raw dicerolling.

Call Lightning isn't great but you're still getting 3d6/round out of one slot. The idea behind spells like these are that they free you to prep buffs, healing, control etc. and still have a way to contribute to fights where none of that is needed. You didn't mention your stats, so you may be physically able to just wildshape and enter the fray, but that's harder to do in PF.

I missed that you had a familiar, no need to bite my head off.

[Gnaeus]

Well the megaraptor requires melee and a full-attack to do all that, while the Flame Sphere can be done at range and you can cast other spells even while directing it, all with just one slot. There's more factors at play there than raw dicerolling.

Right, but it has pounce, lots of movement, and (in my case) 15 foot reach, so the full attack is pretty much automatic, and with scout all the attacks are sneak attacks.


Call Lightning isn't great but you're still getting 3d6/round out of one slot. The idea behind spells like these are that they free you to prep buffs, healing, control etc. and still have a way to contribute to fights where none of that is needed. You didn't mention your stats, so you may be physically able to just wildshape and enter the fray, but that's harder to do in PF.

I missed that you had a familiar, no need to bite my head off.

Right, The problem is that I am a melee combat build. I built it for melee, and the build functions as intended. I just can't contribute much as a caster, and that is what they need now. This is why I have my doubts about the PF druid actually being a T1. A 3.5 druid could do what I want without breaking a sweat. I don't know if I can actually, meaningfully function as a primary caster given the pre-existing conditions.

[Psyren]

The fact that your campaign has cities that ban spellcasting has absolutely nothing to do with the class' tier. You could just as easily say wizard is not T1 because your campaign takes place on a dead magic plane; yeah, you personally are pretty hosed but that has nothing to do with the default game.

[Gnaeus]

The city legal issues are just icing on the cake, though. If anyone had better ideas on how to solve them, I would love it, but whatever. I'm not going to be significantly weaker in the city than I am on this boat. I'll lose 1 attack per round and pounce. I can deal. (I will become Bad Horse. The Thoroughbred of Sin! 21d6 with 10 foot reach from a hoof/hoof/bite is hardly a useless character. Heck, I can manage about 18d6 as a housecat, with a stealth check in the 30s and HiPS)

My issue is that a real T1 caster should be able to switch between roles overnight. We need a Tank? Spell list X. Blaster? Spell list Y. Buffer? Z. I was able to do that in 3.5 as a druid. I can do it in PF as a wizard, or as a cleric. I cannot figure out how to do it as a PF druid. It isn't just that 2d6 fire damage seems pathetic next to multiple sneak attacks. 2d6 fire damage with a fairly weak save and a move action seems pathetic compared to any enemy a group of 10th level gestalts is going to fight.

I could certainly have built a PF druid to be a blaster. I could have built a decent buffer with proper wands and domain selection I suspect. Certainly, had I known, my familiar would have been an Imp with wands instead of a cacodaemon which has no forms that possess both a mouth and hands. But I am here, with a melee build. I have 2 months to prep, and I can always hide my sorry self away in the city and do more crafting or training there. If "You're hosed" is really the answer, I will just keep eating faces, but that seems highly at odds with the view that Druid in PF is a Tier 1 caster.

[Psyren]

My issue is that a real T1 caster should be able to switch between roles overnight. We need a Tank? Spell list X. Blaster? Spell list Y. Buffer? Z. I was able to do that in 3.5 as a druid. I can do it in PF as a wizard, or as a cleric. I cannot figure out how to do it as a PF druid.

PF Druid can do all three of those. You will need good physical stats to be a tank, but that's no different than a PF Wizard or Cleric. Blasting and certain forms of debuffing/control will want high Wis, but there are other forms of control that don't care about your DCs. And buffs of course don't care about your stats at all.

[Spore]

Your DCs are not stellar but remember. BF control is not only done with spells. It is done with positioning, clever wildshaping (ever crushed a ship as a giant squid while a water elemental sank the other one?). Check your wildshapes. Make use of constrict attacks, grab attacks, Vortex and such. Use all the controll spells that don't require a check.

PF was never intended for gestalt campaign and if you concentrate your gestalt on a niché it is likely that you give up major points of the other combat roles for boni. I don't really get your complaint.

[Gnaeus]

PF Druid can do all three of those. You will need good physical stats to be a tank, but that's no different than a PF Wizard or Cleric. Blasting and certain forms of debuffing/control will want high Wis, but there are other forms of control that don't care about your DCs. And buffs of course don't care about your stats at all.

PF druid can. An individual PF druid cannot. Or at least it cannot with anything I have seen or you have suggested.

What buffs? Air Walk and Protection from Energy? I don't have a single generic combat buff above 2nd level without a significant material cost that I don't have. I have no generic mass combat buffs at all. I will eventually get some mass stat buff spells, by which level they will be completely useless. The blasts, as we already covered, seem to need to be built towards to even be viable. With Dazing spell and/or some metamagic rods I might not suck utterly at it. Best I can tell, Druid in PF is a Tier 2, and my build is a very very strong tier 3.

[Spore]

You know about Communal spells from the book Ultimate Combat? Air Walk for everyone also you should realize that a Druid is not a nature Cleric. It is equipped with different spells.

Where the Cleric has buffs, debuffs and minor control, the Druid has debuffs, control and minor blasts. The arcane classes have debuffs, control and minor buffs (number wise not power).

The concept is greatly cyclical. If you really want buffs, you could ask your DM to retrain into Druid/Sandman Bard to get heroism, inspire courage and haste. You still fit the bill, just ask him if you need the additional buffs anyway.

[Gnaeus]

Your DCs are not stellar but remember. BF control is not only done with spells. It is done with positioning, clever wildshaping (ever crushed a ship as a giant squid while a water elemental sank the other one?). Check your wildshapes. Make use of constrict attacks, grab attacks, Vortex and such. Use all the controll spells that don't require a check.

The ships we are on just seem to be too big for that. Our ship seems Is probably 30 feet wide and 100 feet long or so. I can't even tow it in huge squid form.


PF was never intended for gestalt campaign and if you concentrate your gestalt on a niché it is likely that you give up major points of the other combat roles for boni. I don't really get your complaint.

My hope was that there would be more concrete advice on how to shift into that role. Like "Do you have raiment of the 4? Then you can convert spells to fireball." only in PF. Or "Improved Initiative can go, you could retrain it to X feat which will improve your buffing capacity by adding Y to your list." Not "You can blast! Flaming Sphere!". Maybe I need Dazing spell. Maybe I need to get dazing spell at 11 and then retrain Imp Init for Craft Rods and start working on a rod of empower or maximize.

My complaint, such as it is, is that I do not see the Tier 1ness of the PF druid. They seem to require being built towards a role to be capable at it. In 3.5, I could blast, buff, melee or BFC effectively, without even leaving the Summon Natures Ally list. Just swap from Dire Tiger to Hunting bat, switch your spells out, and Bob's your uncle. If I can't switch from primary melee into another role with 2 months of prep time, I just don't see it. Heck, even a Sorcerer could swap out enough spells to change his party role in that time.

[Psyren]

Can you think of a CR-appropriate, non-houserule challenge that a PF Druid can't accomplish with a night's rest? That should answer your questions about tier more than any amount of dismissing of suggestions. Come up with some and we'll deal with them.

[Gnaeus]

Good one. How about this. Can you think of a CR appropriate non-houserule challenge that a PF druid can accomplish with a nights rest that a 3.5 Wildshape ranger could not also accomplish probably better? It seems closer to a Tier 3, "Always useful, very good in its niche" than a tier 1 "Can do anything, often better than people who specialize in that thing."

And yes, I can easily think of situations where the Druid is useless. Virtually anything social, for example.

[Spore]

Could you please tell use if you want your thread to be talking about whether druid should be T1 or not or if we should talk about your character? For the latter, at least I'd want more information. Attributes, Gear, level you are playing on (no I will not count your rogue feats).

As for summonings, your summons are not for damage but as damage sponges utility and combat action efficiency: sure a Dire Tiger will not put out the tremendous damage your gestalt character does, because you're like two characters at once, but it will start dealing damage the round after it's been summoned. Pop several dire tigers/t rex with a higher level spell and let them blow up the time you need to manage your turn. After 2-3 rounds they would've done the damage you didn't do and either continue to do so or take the hurt instead of you.

You have the whole spell list for druids and several months to craft gear to blow up your attributes. Even a "simple" headband of wisdom +6 plus Str/Con Belt +4 or +6 will help you in spreading out your job. And if you read Treantmonk, you'd have seen that Blight Druids are not great for shapeshifters. Take the destruction domain and build around it (as I doubt that you want to take up the Lion shaman for standard action Dire Tigers and Heroism domain to buff them with Aura of Heroism).

Generally I'd see the strengths of Druids either in the summoning and terraforming powers of their spell lists (they are not buffers!) or in the flexibility of wildshaping plus companion plus battlefield control!

[Gnaeus]

Could you please tell use if you want your thread to be talking about whether druid should be T1 or not or if we should talk about your character?

I would prefer to talk about the character, but I don't mind the other. It certainly changes my expectations about what I expect from a class.


For the latter, at least I'd want more information. Attributes, Gear, level you are playing on (no I will not count your rogue feats).

From memory (will update later). Str 20 (24) (usually higher in WS), Dex 19 (usually lower in WS), Wis 18 (22, soon 24), Con 12(16), Int 10, Cha 8
Headband of wis +4 (soon +6), Necklace of Adaptation, Fogcutter Goggles, Custom weapon (adds enhancement to bite attacks, +5 reach for natural attacks, Contagion as a swift 3/day), Gauntlets of the skilled maneuver (Grapple), A cloak that adds +4 to stealth checks, Belt of Str/Con +4, Wands of echolocation, Cure light, and Ant Haul. Ring of protection. Wild Armor (don't remember exact kind, but comes to +5 armor bonus). Thats mostly it. Oh, and some other custom item from the DM that gives an aura around me that adds to the DC to save against disease effects.

After upgrading the Headband, my next thoughts were a Mask of Giants or a book of marvelous recipes. I think the cookbook will win out, if for no other reason than that upgrading the mask will require a Spellcraft check I'm not sure I can make.

Level is 10, as stated in OP.


As for summonings, your summons are not for damage but as damage sponges utility and combat action efficiency: sure a Dire Tiger will not put out the tremendous damage your gestalt character does, because you're like two characters at once, but it will start dealing damage the round after it's been summoned. Pop several dire tigers/t rex with a higher level spell and let them blow up the time you need to manage your turn. After 2-3 rounds they would've done the damage you didn't do and either continue to do so or take the hurt instead of you.

You have the whole spell list for druids and several months to craft gear to blow up your attributes. Even a "simple" headband of wisdom +6 plus Str/Con Belt +4 or +6 will help you in spreading out your job. And if you read Treantmonk, you'd have seen that Blight Druids are not great for shapeshifters. Take the destruction domain and build around it (as I doubt that you want to take up the Lion shaman for standard action Dire Tigers and Heroism domain to buff them with Aura of Heroism).

Right. Blight Druid was chosen because they clearly do not have a problem with Undead, since we work for a bunch of liches and until recently he was working with a PC Necromancer in the party, and I didn't want to be depowered by being insufficiently reverent of nature. Since the Daemon he worships gave him his custom items, I doubt she would be thrilled with him refocusing to Lion. Also, while I agree that Lion, in 20 20 hindsight, would have served him far, far better, I'm not sure that the 25ish days to retrain would actually provide a better improvement in his capabilities than 25 days of upgrading party member's gear.

Destruction is plausible. I could do that. Do you think that trading for Rage & Disintegrate are really moving in the right direction though? As it is, at least the familiar can act as a flanking buddy for whoever needs it, its commune is the closest thing we have to divinations, and I was considering letting it handle a little backup heal/buffing by letting it turn into an octopus and apply ointments or dusts (since it can't UMD). Sew a couple of pouches into people's sleeves and put in Keoghtoms ointment or something else. If we still were rocking the Undead train, the Inflict Critical and Harm would make it worth it, but as it is i'm hesitant.