Jedi Build?

[Gwazi Magnum]

Basically, looking for how people would go about building a Jedi in D&D.

Note: By Jedi I really mean force sensitive, you could go Jedi, Sith, Exile etc. :P

Basically I just got these steps down so far:
-Weapon Finesse
-Agile Enchantment on Melee Weapon
-Monk's Belt (Looking for ways to make this non item dependent without a class level)
-Spell Point Variant System (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/spellPoints.htm)

In other words able to apply Dexterity to Melee attack roll and damage, apply wisdom to AC and be able to go into any wisdom casting class without having to worry about "Preparing" spells.

Almost everything else I'm still working on/could use help with though.
Mainly stuff such as:

1. Which class has a spell tree that relates the most to the force?
2. How do I make the melee weapon do energy damage instead of piercing or slashing damage?
3. Deflecting Shots
4. Have the weapon be useful in regards to connecting to the force/spell casting
5. Maybe a way to have something like a psi-crystal built into the weapon?

And anything else in that regard.

[INoKnowNames]

Well dang. I was going to immediately shoot anyone who said to do a Soulknife, but sadly no one has mentioned one yet, so my vigilantism is not required. Hohum.

Honestly, in terms of a spiritualness connected to a force integral to the very fabric of reality, I like to say that a Cleric or Psychic Warrior feels the most "force-y" to me. There's a Spontaneous Cleric variant if you don't want to prepare spells for it; just learn spells that one would know from the force, and pick force-y domains. Both are also Wisdom based, so that helps a bit...

[The Trickster]

Psychic Warrior seems to fit pretty well for a Jedi, IMO. As for the light saber, maybe brilliant energy? It wouldn't stop the slashing damage, but it would ignore armor, much like a light saber would.

Edit: Partly swordsage'd

[INoKnowNames]

Psychic Warrior seems to fit pretty well for a Jedi, IMO. As for the light saber, maybe brilliant energy? It wouldn't stop the slashing damage, but it would ignore armor, much like a light saber would.

Edit: Partly swordsage'd

The only reason you weren't fully Jedi'd is that Brilliant Energy is a trap: It doesn't harm objects or constructs, so no melting through blast-doors or cutting through droids. You'd be better off with a +1 Force Flaming Shocking Weapon than a Brilliant Energy Weapon (especially since Natural and Deflection Armor are things Brilliant Energy does -not- ignore, and lots of enemies get those).

[ArcturusV]

I'd probably use a Bard as the base chassis. Reasoning I have for thinking this:

The bard is a jack of all trades that fits a lot of what Force users are. Swordsman, Rogue, Sage, Mystic, without actually having to go dip crazy and wait until relatively high levels to be able to pull off the concept.

Bard can't armor up, but eh, force users never really armor up anyway. Excepting Luke going into Storm Trooper Disguise. Think Obi-Wan smartened up and started wearing some armor in the Clone Wars (Unlike the other, dumber jedi who still stuck with flowing robes on a battlefield). Force use is typically fairly "minor" magic compared to standard DnD settings so a 6 max, slower progression fits in my mind. Not to mention the focus on Enchantments which is sort of the bread and butter of what light side Jedi actually do with their powers. Dominate minds.

Course all the bardic lore and such plays into the force sense thing. Play it off instead of "I once heard a story about..." and more like "... I sense that..." Plenty of skill points for them to be the typical athletic type of person that we see with Jedi, running, jumping, climbing, perfect balance, etc, etc, etc. And as a swordsman as the Bard weapon list is almost all finesse items they are going to be more Errol Flynn focused (And closer to the Jedi) than the power attack smash hulk types.

Eh. It's a thought, and where I'd start from. Because I'd want my "Jedi" to at least be recognizable as a Jedi of some sort form level 1 on. Doesn't have to be all powerful of course. But still has to make sense as the concept.

[Prime32]

1. Which class has a spell tree that relates the most to the force?Thirding psychic warrior, maybe leading into psychic weapon master (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040827d). There's even an ACF for summoning weapons (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070214a), if that takes your fancy.

2. How do I make the melee weapon do energy damage instead of piercing or slashing damage?Try the spectral dagger in Magic Item Compendium. Its attacks resolve as chill touch spells, meaning they're touch attacks that deal negative energy damage, though you don't get to add Str to damage. It even looks like a lightsaber, if a bit more morbid.
EDIT: Plus if you go the Tashalatora route, there are ways to treat a dagger as a monk weapon (meaning you can use it as part of a flurry of blows).

3. Deflecting ShotsDeflect Arrows feat. If you're getting it from a monk dip, pick up Spell Reflection (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20061010a) while you're at it.

4. Have the weapon be useful in regards to connecting to the force/spell casting
5. Maybe a way to have something like a psi-crystal built into the weapon?Dreamscarred Press has psicrystal weapons (http://dsp-d20-srd.wikidot.com/alternate-psicrystal:psicrystal-weapon). Also you could look into Weapon Augment Crystals from MIC.

[AlltheBooks]

PsiWar using a deepcrystal weapon with the psionic property. No resistance but only d4 extra damage. Bonus points for a Tash build.

ECS mnk (get out as fast as you can) BF for using a longsword as a monk wp. Robilar's Gambit, Karma strike, Evasive Reflexes are feats to look at.

Decisive Strike may be on the table depending the flavour.

Not optimal but hey. Really the best Jedi build IMO is a Tash/monk. less monk the better.

[Gwazi Magnum]

Well dang. I was going to immediately shoot anyone who said to do a Soulknife, but sadly no one has mentioned one yet, so my vigilantism is not required. Hohum.

Honestly, in terms of a spiritualness connected to a force integral to the very fabric of reality, I like to say that a Cleric or Psychic Warrior feels the most "force-y" to me. There's a Spontaneous Cleric variant if you don't want to prepare spells for it; just learn spells that one would know from the force, and pick force-y domains. Both are also Wisdom based, so that helps a bit...

I got the point system approved, so I'm probably going with that if I were to make the character.

Honestly I looked at Psychic Warrior. It's lack of power points and limited spell level cap bothers me. I imagine Jedi's can become very destructive with the force near end game.

So at the moment I'm mostly looking at Druid or Cleric depending mostly on whose spell tree is more appropriate.


The only reason you weren't fully Jedi'd is that Brilliant Energy is a trap: It doesn't harm objects or constructs, so no melting through blast-doors or cutting through droids. You'd be better off with a +1 Force Flaming Shocking Weapon than a Brilliant Energy Weapon (especially since Natural and Deflection Armor are things Brilliant Energy does -not- ignore, and lots of enemies get those).

I get most of those, but why Force?
The description of it seems to suggest it just dispels magical barriers, not a common thing light sabers do.
While on the light saber topic though, are there ways to easily have it cut through hardness?


I'd probably use a Bard as the base chassis. Reasoning I have for thinking this:

The bard is a jack of all trades that fits a lot of what Force users are. Swordsman, Rogue, Sage, Mystic, without actually having to go dip crazy and wait until relatively high levels to be able to pull off the concept.

Bard can't armor up, but eh, force users never really armor up anyway. Excepting Luke going into Storm Trooper Disguise. Think Obi-Wan smartened up and started wearing some armor in the Clone Wars (Unlike the other, dumber jedi who still stuck with flowing robes on a battlefield). Force use is typically fairly "minor" magic compared to standard DnD settings so a 6 max, slower progression fits in my mind. Not to mention the focus on Enchantments which is sort of the bread and butter of what light side Jedi actually do with their powers. Dominate minds.

Course all the bardic lore and such plays into the force sense thing. Play it off instead of "I once heard a story about..." and more like "... I sense that..." Plenty of skill points for them to be the typical athletic type of person that we see with Jedi, running, jumping, climbing, perfect balance, etc, etc, etc. And as a swordsman as the Bard weapon list is almost all finesse items they are going to be more Errol Flynn focused (And closer to the Jedi) than the power attack smash hulk types.

Eh. It's a thought, and where I'd start from. Because I'd want my "Jedi" to at least be recognizable as a Jedi of some sort form level 1 on. Doesn't have to be all powerful of course. But still has to make sense as the concept.

Most of that seems sound, though the Bard spell tree doesn't have too much in regards to the force. Plus the bardic music ability doesn't really mix at all and it's one of the classes main features.



Deflect Arrows feat. If you're getting it from a monk dip, pick up Spell Reflection (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20061010a) while you're at it.
Dreamscarred Press has psicrystal weapons (http://dsp-d20-srd.wikidot.com/alternate-psicrystal:psicrystal-weapon). Also you could look into Weapon Augment Crystals from MIC.

Deflect Arrows, I figured. I was just checking in case there were ways to make it more than once per round though.

For the crystals? Maybe, though tbh I had completely forgot about the weapon augment ones for a bit.

[Prime32]

Honestly I looked at Psychic Warrior. It's lack of power points and limited spell level cap bothers me. I imagine Jedi's can become very destructive with the force near end game.You get lower-level powers than a full manifester sure, but you can augment them just as much.


Deflect Arrows, I figured. I was just checking in case there were ways to make it more than once per round though.There's Infinite Deflection but it's epic, and Spinning Deflection (Dragon Compendium) but it requires the total defense action and is limited to polearms. It's probably easier just to refluff a bladed shield, or give your weapon the defending enchantment, or something.

[watchwood]

Most of that seems sound, though the Bard spell tree doesn't have too much in regards to the force. Plus the bardic music ability doesn't really mix at all and it's one of the classes main features.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Battle_meditation

Also, all of the bard's enchantment spells and abilities practically scream 'Jedi Mind Trick'

[The Trickster]

Most of that seems sound, though the Bard spell tree doesn't have too much in regards to the force. Plus the bardic music ability doesn't really mix at all and it's one of the classes main features.

Well, if you ever saw Moulin Rouge, you get to see Obi-wan sing and dance. He even does it wearing lederhosen.

[Lightlawbliss]

...I get most of those, but why Force?
...

Iirc, Force weapons replace the normal damage with force damage of the same amount. Force damage doesn't get stopped by much.

[Gwazi Magnum]

You get lower-level powers than a full manifester sure, but you can augment them just as much.

There's Infinite Deflection but it's epic, and Spinning Deflection (Dragon Compendium) but it requires the total defense action and is limited to polearms. It's probably easier just to refluff a bladed shield, or give your weapon the defending enchantment, or something.

I guess, but the points to spend are still far lower. :/

I'm not really sure what it is that Psychic Warrior has for this that Cleric or Druid can't give under the point's variant.


http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Battle_meditation

Also, all of the bard's enchantment spells and abilities practically scream 'Jedi Mind Trick'

I totally forgot about that... :/

I suppose this is true. But then there's power's like force lightning, Bards have basically no offensive spells.
Plus I see Jedi's as being more wisdom based than charisma based.


Iirc, Force weapons replace the normal damage with force damage of the same amount. Force damage doesn't get stopped by much.

Under the description it only mentioned +1d6 force damage. Nothing about converting the weapons damage to force damage. :/

What is the stuff force damage bypasses anyways?

[Zonugal]

I traditionally look at a Jedi-inspired build like Ardent 4/Unarmed Swordsage 2/Slayer 10/Unarmed Swordsage 1/Ardent 3.

[mabriss lethe]

Are we talking Original Trilogy level of force powers or OMGWTFStarkiller force powers? There's a very wide range of "What the force does" in Starwars. In the OT, we only see a little bit. Clairvoyance, enhanced reflexes, some fun acrobatics, snazzy weapons, the mind trick, lightsaber throwing, a choke kill and a bit of lightning near the end. Things get utterly ridiculous when you get into the interpretation of Force Powers in the Expanded Universe.

An example OT Jedi could be (gasp for the underpowered shenanigans that I unleash)

Kalashtar Soulknife 6 (wait, what? they suck) using both Mind's Eye ACFs/Sonokineticist (alternate energy variant of Pyrokineticist) 9/whatever 5: Focusing on Dex, with at least a 13 in Str to qualify for Power Attack, and as much as you can spare into Cha.

Using the Hidden Talent ACF, pick up either offensive precognition or offensive precience. (There's your jedi clairvoyance.) Using the Bonus Feat ACF, replace Psychic Strike with Power Attack at 3rd level. It won't do you too much good at first but it'll be your bread and butter later on. You can throw your mindblade starting at level 2, emulating a lightsaber throw. Once you hit 6th, acquire an Adamantine Mindblade Gauntlet (from Magic Item Compendium) while the adamantine quality it bestows is nice and lightsaber-like. That's not the real reason you want it. In order for the gauntlet to function at all like it is supposed to, it has to alter the way your mindblade works, granting you the ability to reassign its enhancement every time you form it, instead of having to take 8 hours. My favorite trick here is to continuously respawn mindblades with the Lucky property and take shameless advantage of being able to reroll failed attack rolls as a free action.

When you enter Sonokineticist, your lash that you get at level 1 will be your primary weapon, as it can ignore an object's hardness (lightsabers, yo!), is delivered as a ranged touch attack and due to the wording of the ability, it can benefit from Power Attack. Your sonic themed version of Firewalk will give you a decent analog for jedi acrobatics. To emulate force choke, you have a sonic save or die that you can theoretically spam every other round. While not exactly lightning, you gain a ranged touch attack from the class as well with damage that scales per level of the PrC.

That leaves the Mind Trick, It'll take some doing, but bear with me here. This is where the Kalashtar part of the equation comes in. First off, it gives you some bonus PP that will be nice for the build. It also gives you Mindlink as a Psi-like ability, which can be fun, but that's not the real reason why it's good. It grants a proper manifester level like a Wilder of 1/2 your HD. ( Later on you can pick up the Kalashtar Mindlink feat which will boost this to your full HD. ) When you picked up the power with Hidden Talent at soulknife 1, it automatically keys off of this manifester level instead of its own. If a character can manifest a power, it then gains bonus PP based on manifester level and the relevant ability score (Cha, in this case).

You now have a decent reserve of PP, but not a lot to do with it...And still no Mind Trick. Let's fix that. while I've seen other methods propsed,You'll find the solution in the Illithid Heritage feats. Take Illithid heritage at 1st level, another illithid heritage feat at 3rd, and then take Illithid Legacy at 6. Since you meet the prerequisites, you can now manifest Psionic Charm and Detect Thoughts as a manifester of 1/2 your HD. That will round out the OT power set. However, if you want more, we can capitalize further on this by taking Kalashtar Mindlink at 9th and Greater Legacy at 12th. That nets you Dispel Psionics and Dominate manifested at your full HD.

As for a more powerful Expanded Universe style Jedi, you'd definitely want something with better casting/manifesting.

[Gwazi Magnum]

Are we talking Original Trilogy level of force powers or OMGWTFStarkiller force powers? There's a very wide range of "What the force does" in Starwars. In the OT, we only see a little bit. Clairvoyance, enhanced reflexes, some fun acrobatics, snazzy weapons, the mind trick, lightsaber throwing, a choke kill and a bit of lightning near the end. Things get utterly ridiculous when you get into the interpretation of Force Powers in the Expanded Universe.

An example OT Jedi could be (gasp for the underpowered shenanigans that I unleash)

Kalashtar Soulknife 6 (wait, what? they suck) using both Mind's Eye ACFs/Sonokineticist (alternate energy variant of Pyrokineticist) 9/whatever 5: Focusing on Dex, with at least a 13 in Str to qualify for Power Attack, and as much as you can spare into Cha.

Using the Hidden Talent ACF, pick up either offensive precognition or offensive precience. (There's your jedi clairvoyance.) Using the Bonus Feat ACF, replace Psychic Strike with Power Attack at 3rd level. It won't do you too much good at first but it'll be your bread and butter later on. You can throw your mindblade starting at level 2, emulating a lightsaber throw. Once you hit 6th, acquire an Adamantine Mindblade Gauntlet (from Magic Item Compendium) while the adamantine quality it bestows is nice and lightsaber-like. That's not the real reason you want it. In order for the gauntlet to function at all like it is supposed to, it has to alter the way your mindblade works, granting you the ability to reassign its enhancement every time you form it, instead of having to take 8 hours. My favorite trick here is to continuously respawn mindblades with the Lucky property and take shameless advantage of being able to reroll failed attack rolls as a free action.

When you enter Sonokineticist, your lash that you get at level 1 will be your primary weapon, as it can ignore an object's hardness (lightsabers, yo!), is delivered as a ranged touch attack and due to the wording of the ability, it can benefit from Power Attack. Your sonic themed version of Firewalk will give you a decent analog for jedi acrobatics. To emulate force choke, you have a sonic save or die that you can theoretically spam every other round. While not exactly lightning, you gain a ranged touch attack from the class as well with damage that scales per level of the PrC.

That leaves the Mind Trick, It'll take some doing, but bear with me here. This is where the Kalashtar part of the equation comes in. First off, it gives you some bonus PP that will be nice for the build. It also gives you Mindlink as a Psi-like ability, which can be fun, but that's not the real reason why it's good. It grants a proper manifester level like a Wilder of 1/2 your HD. ( Later on you can pick up the Kalashtar Mindlink feat which will boost this to your full HD. ) When you picked up the power with Hidden Talent at soulknife 1, it automatically keys off of this manifester level instead of its own. If a character can manifest a power, it then gains bonus PP based on manifester level and the relevant ability score (Cha, in this case).

You now have a decent reserve of PP, but not a lot to do with it...And still no Mind Trick. Let's fix that. while I've seen other methods propsed,You'll find the solution in the Illithid Heritage feats. Take Illithid heritage at 1st level, another illithid heritage feat at 3rd, and then take Illithid Legacy at 6. Since you meet the prerequisites, you can now manifest Psionic Charm and Detect Thoughts as a manifester of 1/2 your HD. That will round out the OT power set. However, if you want more, we can capitalize further on this by taking Kalashtar Mindlink at 9th and Greater Legacy at 12th. That nets you Dispel Psionics and Dominate manifested at your full HD.

As for a more powerful Expanded Universe style Jedi, you'd definitely want something with better casting/manifesting.

I'm looking at force powers from the expanded Universe.

Though at the same time I don't want to go Force Unleashed insane with it. But I want a decent variety of force powers at least.

[INoKnowNames]

I'm looking at force powers from the expanded Universe.

Though at the same time I don't want to go Force Unleashed insane with it.

Force Storm (wormhole) would like to have a word with you. (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Force_storm_(wormhole))

Seriously, the Force gets freaking ridiculous. Accept that now.

[Maginomicon]

Multiclass the Kensai base class (Dragon Magazine #310 page 36) with Generic Divine Spellcaster (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/genericClasses.htm) (this allows you to also cast arcane spells). Take Hidden Talent at first level (I recommend the Call Item power), followed by the Arcane Focus feat ASAP (Dragon Magazine #351 page 88). Take Arcane feats (also Dragon Magazine #351 page 88) whenever you can fit it into the build. Your goal is the Kensai prestige class.

[Gwazi Magnum]

Multiclass the Kensai base class (Dragon Magazine #310 page 36) with Generic Divine Spellcaster (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/genericClasses.htm) (this allows you to also cast arcane spells). Take Hidden Talent at first level (I recommend the Call Item power), followed by the Arcane Focus feat ASAP (Dragon Magazine #351 page 88). Take Arcane feats (also Dragon Magazine #351 page 88) whenever you can fit it into the build. Your goal is the Kensai prestige class.

Doesn't that completely ruin any spellcasting capabilities though so I'm just going into Kensai?

[Maginomicon]

Doesn't that completely ruin any spellcasting capabilities though so I'm just going into Kensai?
Nope. Generic spellcaster gets you access to maximum choice versatility for your jedi abilities, with the kensai base class levels giving you a solid martial base. The kensai prestige class gives you no weapon/armor proficiencies and the kensai base class only gives you proficiency in light armor (which you can ignore with the right buffs), simple weapons, and a martial or exotic melee weapon of your choice (which is your "chosen weapon"). The kensai's base ability (basically a free magical weapon enhancement forever), rain of blows, and storm of blows match the flavor of a sith/jedi's attack speed.

If you want Jedi/Sith fluff and a semblance of its abilities, you need a gish with an oath and in some ways a near-obsessive devotion to his weapon, and this fits that to a tee. Arcane Focus and Hidden Talent give you access to both Psionic Focus and Arcane Focus, which easier enable you to auto-succeed on most attempts to cast defensively.

[ArcturusV]

I dunno if Bardic Song is really that far out of place considering. I mean yeah, if you look at it as singing at people. But if it was something like a perform (meditation) or something. So Countersong becomes something like a mantra that they chant to help focus others, the fascinate being a calming influence they exude, the inspire courage helping people focus on the Living Force (In the Now) and using it.

The Bardic Magic I don't really see a problem with. The various healing things are things Jedi have done. The enchantment being all the Jedi Mind Tricks and such. Things like Cat's Grace, Haste, Expedious Retreat, etc, being all the physical buffs they do. The illusions and conjurations are the only ones I see as being outside the typical Jedi realm. But I just wouldn't pick them. Even a few evocations to fit with the various force blasts if that's your thing.

Eh. It's a weird fit I admit. Takes some work. Not familiar with psionics to know how to use it properly for this sort of thing. The whole line between Charisma and Wisdom is kinda sketchy for this purpose. Wisdom being "Force of Will" and Charisma being "Force of Personality" both of which kind of apply to Jedi, as their power is as much an extension of their persona and identity ("You can't force The Force" as one Extended Universe Novel points out), as it is about sheer willpower, with most Jedi trying to attain a state of zen focus where they instinctively react to their feelings rather than focus their mind (Where I see it leaning towards Charisma over Wisdom).

[Gwazi Magnum]

Nope. Generic spellcaster gets you access to maximum choice versatility for your jedi abilities, with the kensai base class levels giving you a solid martial base. The kensai prestige class gives you no weapon/armor proficiencies and the kensai base class only gives you proficiency in light armor (which you can ignore with the right buffs), simple weapons, and a martial or exotic melee weapon of your choice (which is your "chosen weapon"). The kensai's base ability (basically a free magical weapon enhancement forever), rain of blows, and storm of blows match the flavor of a sith/jedi's attack speed.

If you want Jedi/Sith fluff and a semblance of its abilities, you need a gish with an oath and in some ways a near-obsessive devotion to his weapon, and this fits that to a tee. Arcane Focus and Hidden Talent give you access to both Psionic Focus and Arcane Focus, which easier enable you to auto-succeed on most attempts to cast defensively.

It does though because all those Kensai levels are taking away caster levels. :/


I dunno if Bardic Song is really that far out of place considering. I mean yeah, if you look at it as singing at people. But if it was something like a perform (meditation) or something. So Countersong becomes something like a mantra that they chant to help focus others, the fascinate being a calming influence they exude, the inspire courage helping people focus on the Living Force (In the Now) and using it.

The Bardic Magic I don't really see a problem with. The various healing things are things Jedi have done. The enchantment being all the Jedi Mind Tricks and such. Things like Cat's Grace, Haste, Expedious Retreat, etc, being all the physical buffs they do. The illusions and conjurations are the only ones I see as being outside the typical Jedi realm. But I just wouldn't pick them. Even a few evocations to fit with the various force blasts if that's your thing.

Eh. It's a weird fit I admit. Takes some work. Not familiar with psionics to know how to use it properly for this sort of thing. The whole line between Charisma and Wisdom is kinda sketchy for this purpose. Wisdom being "Force of Will" and Charisma being "Force of Personality" both of which kind of apply to Jedi, as their power is as much an extension of their persona and identity ("You can't force The Force" as one Extended Universe Novel points out), as it is about sheer willpower, with most Jedi trying to attain a state of zen focus where they instinctively react to their feelings rather than focus their mind (Where I see it leaning towards Charisma over Wisdom).

True.
But it's not a natural charm I find that helps them with the force.
It's inner strength, inner will and the ability to control ones actions and stay disciplined enough to harness such power. I grant the Bard isn't completely off, I just feel there might be a bit better out there.

I am pretty tempted to just go Generic Spellcaster to solve the spell issue right there. However then my BAB is lacking big time, which can hurt with lightsaber combat.

[AlltheBooks]

Probably suggested, Argent/Swordsage/?

Or just that.

[Juntao112]

Glaivelock

[Maginomicon]

It does though because all those Kensai levels are taking away caster levels. :/
While there's more than one way to be a jedi (Despite what the movies imply, not every jedi is a lightsaber master (it's just that most of the "notable" ones are and the tabletop RPG (I think the old West End Games version in particular) makes lightsabers OP), the fact remains that the power fantasy of "I wanna swing my lightsaber" means you naturally aren't as much a force-user as force-sensitive melee beast. Sure, multiclassing isn't ideal, but hell, there's a frickin' "lightsaber" flurry (rain of blows) and greater "lightsaber" flurry (storm of blows) as class features in the kensai base class. Who's not going to want that?

You could gestalt kensai with generic spellcaster, I guess, but that's dependent on your GM.

[Scow2]

I'd say the most obvious is "Tashalatora Monk/PsyWar" with the Eberron Longsword ability. Toning MAD down is a problem, though... but you don't need weapon finesse: Even middling dexterity is compensated for by good/great Wisdom.

[ArcturusV]

Other odd idea? Sohei. Get the flurry of blows for the Lightsaber frenzy, and the ability of Jedi to be combat beasts by enhanced force sense reflexes. Minor spell casting (Wis and Prep) for some Force Powers. Decent saves with Mettle tacked on. Full BAB so they can still be the combat beast.

Harder fit I think. But it's another option to consider that hasn't been mentioned yet. Fits the "Warrior Jedi" type like Mace Windu and Anakin a bit more compared to the more "Sagely" types like Obi-Wan and Yoda perhaps.

[Gwazi Magnum]

Bonus Question: Jedi like was only one aspect of this build.

But I figure I should also ask for the second aspect now.
The other idea was that he's basically a hunter of evil, as in he hunts and seeks to destroy evil presences and people in the world. However, he is not like a Paladin. Since he will go to any means necessary to destroy evil forces, even if it means committing barbaric and evil acts himself.

So basically, can people point me to any good abilities that goes well against facing evil creatures that doesn't conflict with the Jedi concept or require me to be good?


While there's more than one way to be a jedi (Despite what the movies imply, not every jedi is a lightsaber master (it's just that most of the "notable" ones are and the tabletop RPG (I think the old West End Games version in particular) makes lightsabers OP), the fact remains that the power fantasy of "I wanna swing my lightsaber" means you naturally aren't as much a force-user as force-sensitive melee beast. Sure, multiclassing isn't ideal, but hell, there's a frickin' "lightsaber" flurry (rain of blows) and greater "lightsaber" flurry (storm of blows) as class features in the kensai base class. Who's not going to want that?

You could gestalt kensai with generic spellcaster, I guess, but that's dependent on your GM.

I realize this.

Though I decided to take a bunch of crafting feats (Chaos Shuffle with armor proficiency, location feats etc.) to simply make crafting a magic sword really cheap. That way, I can afford to have a powerful sword, belt etc. at low levels to resemble a lightsaber.

I already asked for Gestalt though and it was rejected. The DM's afraid of what kind of powerful build I can make with Gestalt.


I'd say the most obvious is "Tashalatora Monk/PsyWar" with the Eberron Longsword ability. Toning MAD down is a problem, though... but you don't need weapon finesse: Even middling dexterity is compensated for by good/great Wisdom.

If I may ask, what is the ebberon longsword ability?

Also, I was going to grab a Monks Belt anyways for wisdom to AC. Is there much else that the Monk has that would be useful for a Jedi Build?

[Gwazi Magnum]

Other odd idea? Sohei. Get the flurry of blows for the Lightsaber frenzy, and the ability of Jedi to be combat beasts by enhanced force sense reflexes. Minor spell casting (Wis and Prep) for some Force Powers. Decent saves with Mettle tacked on. Full BAB so they can still be the combat beast.

Harder fit I think. But it's another option to consider that hasn't been mentioned yet. Fits the "Warrior Jedi" type like Mace Windu and Anakin a bit more compared to the more "Sagely" types like Obi-Wan and Yoda perhaps.

Interesting idea.

But the spell casting abilities of that class are too low for my tastes personally for this concept.

[ArcturusV]

Well, cheap evasion fits Jedi reflexes. So maybe up to 2.

With the "Hunt down Evil" thing tacked on as well I'm thinking Witch Hunter PrC. Doesn't require Good... though kind of requires Non-Evil if you go with a divine entry as it requires the ability to cast Magic Circle Against Evil. But with an arcane entry, not a problem. Gets you a lot of "Paladin" stuff like smite and detect evil, Charisma to Saves, Aura of Courage, also SR versus Evil Spells or Evil Creatures only. 5/10 casting advance though so that might be the killer. Plus side full BAB and 3 bonus feats along the chain that you can shuffle away if need be. Good Fort and Will saves on top of the Kami's Grace ability.

[Red Fel]

I'm confused, a bit.

You open the thread with things like Weapon Finesse, Agile enhancement, Monk's Belt - things designed for someone who plans to be in melee. People propose melee builds with Force extras, and you say you want more Force stuff.

There is a balance, friend, and it is a tenuous one. The more Force stuff you get (and I recommend Psionics, it does everything you need), the less melee stuff you get. That is, the more caster-y the build, the less of a melee beast you can make it. So you should probably decide now whether you want some sort of Jedi sage (a la Yoda) or a Jedi enforcer-type (a la Anakin).

Second, you say you want a hunter of evil... Who doesn't have to be good. As a rule, hunting evil things is often associated with Good characters (but see the Silver Flame purge of lycanthropes for that sort of thing going awry), and the best anti-evil powers often go to Good characters (see e.g. Fist of Raziel, truly awesome evilslaying class). That said, an easy fix is Ranger, then take Favored Enemy (Outsider (Evil)), done and done. If you're looking for more ambiguous evil, evil-the-concept instead of evil-the-creature-type, you'll probably end up with an alignment restriction. For example, a NG Incarnate gets Detect Opposition (here, Detect Good). As a bonus, Incarnates have good Force flavor - they literally draw on the universal energies binding living things together, giving them tangible form.

Also they have gloves that shoot lightning. Because, you know, lightning.

[Gwazi Magnum]

Well, cheap evasion fits Jedi reflexes. So maybe up to 2.

With the "Hunt down Evil" thing tacked on as well I'm thinking Witch Hunter PrC. Doesn't require Good... though kind of requires Non-Evil if you go with a divine entry as it requires the ability to cast Magic Circle Against Evil. But with an arcane entry, not a problem. Gets you a lot of "Paladin" stuff like smite and detect evil, Charisma to Saves, Aura of Courage, also SR versus Evil Spells or Evil Creatures only. 5/10 casting advance though so that might be the killer. Plus side full BAB and 3 bonus feats along the chain that you can shuffle away if need be. Good Fort and Will saves on top of the Kami's Grace ability.

Aren't there magic items I can use to get evasion?
So if I had say a ring of evasion and a monks belt would that effectively save me from spending 2 character levels?

The Good Hunter thing I admit is an extra, and please drop it completely if it ends up taking away from the Jedi part. It was just something extra I thought would be fun to fit in if possible. As for the class you suggested, it is an evil hunter alright, but the half caster level requirement does scare me off a bit. :/


I'm confused, a bit.

You open the thread with things like Weapon Finesse, Agile enhancement, Monk's Belt - things designed for someone who plans to be in melee. People propose melee builds with Force extras, and you say you want more Force stuff.

There is a balance, friend, and it is a tenuous one. The more Force stuff you get (and I recommend Psionics, it does everything you need), the less melee stuff you get. That is, the more caster-y the build, the less of a melee beast you can make it. So you should probably decide now whether you want some sort of Jedi sage (a la Yoda) or a Jedi enforcer-type (a la Anakin).

Second, you say you want a hunter of evil... Who doesn't have to be good. As a rule, hunting evil things is often associated with Good characters (but see the Silver Flame purge of lycanthropes for that sort of thing going awry), and the best anti-evil powers often go to Good characters (see e.g. Fist of Raziel, truly awesome evilslaying class). That said, an easy fix is Ranger, then take Favored Enemy (Outsider (Evil)), done and done. If you're looking for more ambiguous evil, evil-the-concept instead of evil-the-creature-type, you'll probably end up with an alignment restriction. For example, a NG Incarnate gets Detect Opposition (here, Detect Good). As a bonus, Incarnates have good Force flavor - they literally draw on the universal energies binding living things together, giving them tangible form.

Also they have gloves that shoot lightning. Because, you know, lightning.

Honestly, I've seen builds before that got the best of both worlds and I'm trying to get as close to that here as possible. If I had to pick one over the other it would be melee, but not insanely so. I'm looking for a good balance, with hopefully enough power/spell points that it I don't need to micromanage them. Just doesn't seem to fit a Jedi will to be managing when in the day he'll use the force.

As for fighting evil, it's more the general concept. But the Evil (Outsider) type would be target #1.

[Gwazi Magnum]

Other question relating to force powers.

Is there a way to teach a psionic class non-psionic spells without having to multi-class?

[Zonugal]

Once again going to advertise for a build of Ardent 4/Unarmed Swordsage 2/Slayer 10/Unarmed Swordsage 1/Ardent 3.

You'll end up with a BaB of +17, ML of 20 (with Practiced Manifester: Ardent) and an IL of 11 (16 if your DM lets you count all prestige classes as initiator-progressing).

If you can convince your DM to allow for humanoid (human; psionic) for Slayer's favored enemy ability you'll be rocking a +8 bonus against them (in addition to being able to detect them at 60 ft.).

[Gwazi Magnum]

Once again going to advertise for a build of Ardent 4/Unarmed Swordsage 2/Slayer 10/Unarmed Swordsage 1/Ardent 3.

You'll end up with a BaB of +17, ML of 20 (with Practiced Manifester: Ardent) and an IL of 11 (16 if your DM lets you count all prestige classes as initiator-progressing).

If you can convince your DM to allow for humanoid (human; psionic) for Slayer's favored enemy ability you'll be rocking a +8 bonus against them (in addition to being able to detect them at 60 ft.).

Maybe, can I get a bit more of a description of how that class combination works though?

[Maginomicon]

Is there a way to teach a psionic class non-psionic spells without having to multi-class?
The Magical Training feat does that.

[Feint's End]

Monk 1 (or Monbelt)/Psywar 5/Shiba Protector 1/ Psywar and Sanctified Mind till 20

Take Intuitive Strike as your 3rd level feat and you got double wis to hit, wis to damage, wis to ac (which should be pretty good thanks to inertial armor) ... best thing about this is it makes you Wis SAD meaning you'll also have enough PP to pull of the necessary stunts and the double Wis to hit means your +16 bab at level 20 won't matter all to much (you can even go full PA if you want to)
you could probably add Tashalatora for some real unarmed goodess on top of the whole melee build.
you can emulate all force abilitys by using psypower (telekinetic thrust says hi)
if you find a spell that fits especially well (but as said psipowers just work fine), you can probably get from a StP Erudite (cheesy way though)


Alternative? Soulknife :smallbiggrin:.
BUT the Pathfinder one!
Take the Gifted Blade Archetype for manifesting and you are pretty much good to go right away. If you want to get Wisdom SAD add a monkdip and get the Focused Defense and Focused Offense Bladeskills for double wis to ac and wis to hit and dmg.

Generally the first build is more the balanced jedi knight, while the second one is the stronger fighter (also the second one works from level 1 while the first one needs level 7 for Shiba Protector) ... a jedi more focused on using the force instead of the lightsaber could be a Psion or Erudite (though I'd probably choose the sion and just pick the spec that fits ... Telepath for example)

edit: Alternative for the force focused one: be an Ardent and just pick Intuitive Attack or dip two levels PF Swordsage for Focused Offense. Wisdom based and also a decent fighter while having faster access to some powers.

[skyth]

In my first 3.0 campaign, I had the players run into a Hobgoblin Monk/Psychic Warrior using a brilliant energy two-bladed sword. I believe he also had a magic item that allowed him to jump better.

[Gwazi Magnum]

The Magical Training feat does that.

It does, but just three level 0 spells.
Nothing that can be used like force powers.


Monk 1 (or Monbelt)/Psywar 5/Shiba Protector 1/ Psywar and Sanctified Mind till 20

Take Intuitive Strike as your 3rd level feat and you got double wis to hit, wis to damage, wis to ac (which should be pretty good thanks to inertial armor) ... best thing about this is it makes you Wis SAD meaning you'll also have enough PP to pull of the necessary stunts and the double Wis to hit means your +16 bab at level 20 won't matter all to much (you can even go full PA if you want to)
you could probably add Tashalatora for some real unarmed goodess on top of the whole melee build.
you can emulate all force abilitys by using psypower (telekinetic thrust says hi)
if you find a spell that fits especially well (but as said psipowers just work fine), you can probably get from a StP Erudite (cheesy way though)


Alternative? Soulknife :smallbiggrin:.
BUT the Pathfinder one!
Take the Gifted Blade Archetype for manifesting and you are pretty much good to go right away. If you want to get Wisdom SAD add a monkdip and get the Focused Defense and Focused Offense Bladeskills for double wis to ac and wis to hit and dmg.

Generally the first build is more the balanced jedi knight, while the second one is the stronger fighter (also the second one works from level 1 while the first one needs level 7 for Shiba Protector) ... a jedi more focused on using the force instead of the lightsaber could be a Psion or Erudite (though I'd probably choose the sion and just pick the spec that fits ... Telepath for example)

edit: Alternative for the force focused one: be an Ardent and just pick Intuitive Attack or dip two levels PF Swordsage for Focused Offense. Wisdom based and also a decent fighter while having faster access to some powers.

Interesting, though I have a few questions.

1. Is there a real reason for Sanctified Mind other than the full BAB?
2. What if I used Ardent with custom mantles instead of Psy Warrior? Does that change much?
3. I know there's some Psion only powers. Are there ways to teach them to a Psy Warrior?

[AlltheBooks]

Ardent is good if you want to multiclass and want a focused theme due to the way they learn powers. Ardent Swordsage could be fun. Fluff Setting Sun throws as Force push, get wis to AC in light, mantle power etc.

Psion/Slayer or Battlemind(or both) is another, not sure if suggested.

Expanded Knowledge is the feat you are looking for concerning learning powers off your class list.

[Red Fel]

Meet the Convert Spell to Power (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070629a) Erudite (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20060406b). It can learn spells and then manifest them as Psionic Powers. Boom, easy.

EDIT: I just realized Feint's End already mentioned it. And yes, Erudite will not give you melee beefiness, but it will give you basically any arcane spell you want. Not that I think a Psion needs it, but hey, it's your ballgame, I'm just clearing the field.

[Gwazi Magnum]

Ardent is good if you want to multiclass and want a focused theme due to the way they learn powers. Ardent Swordsage could be fun. Fluff Setting Sun throws as Force push, get wis to AC in light, mantle power etc.

Psion/Slayer or Battlemind(or both) is another, not sure if suggested.

Expanded Knowledge is the feat you are looking for concerning learning powers off your class list.

Thanks :)

I'm confused with Slayer though.
What is it about it that makes so many people suggest it?


Meet the Convert Spell to Power (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070629a) Erudite (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20060406b). It can learn spells and then manifest them as Psionic Powers. Boom, easy.

EDIT: I just realized Feint's End already mentioned it. And yes, Erudite will not give you melee beefiness, but it will give you basically any arcane spell you want. Not that I think a Psion needs it, but hey, it's your ballgame, I'm just clearing the field.

I'm well aware of Erudite :P
I'm just trying to avoid that due to Intelligence instead of Wisdom and the Lack of Melee capabilities.

[TiaC]

Binder 1/Sorcerer 2/ Anima Mage 10/War Mage 1(AoM)/Ruathar 1/ Abjurant Champion 5. Persist Thunderlance and bind Paimon and Geryon. You are a SAD melee with good reach and 9th level spells.

[AlltheBooks]

Slayer is popular mechanically because full BAB and only loses 1 manifester lvl in addition to a few nice class features. Fluff wise you can plug any hated foe in with only minor adjustments which is why many of my players like it.

Others may have other opinions.