Champion of Corellon vs. Eye of Gruumsh

[RPGaddict28]

1v1 fight, who would be more likely to win? Assuming they are equal in level.

[herrhauptmann]

We need more details.
What level are they? Subraces?
What build got them entry?

[RPGaddict28]

I still need to actually build em, but I meant in general.

[Phelix-Mu]

Well, Champion of Corellon gets major boned by having hard-to-meet feat tax. While Eye of Gruumsh doesn't really have terribly useful pre-reqs, it has two of them, while Champion has a whopping four feats, plus the need to have all martial and heavy armour profs. Champion also has some irritating skill requirements to get in as well.

All op being equal, the Eye is going to have more to play with in terms of tools to help the build, whereas stuff like Combat Expertise, Dodge, and Mounted Combat are effectively dead weight for the Champion (except for maybe getting to the better feats later on in those feat trees).

I do love the flavor of Champion, though.

[Xerlith]

The answer to a question constructed that way would be:
Yes.

If you give me an Eye of Gruumsh, I can build a CoC that'll immediately shut it down. If you give me a CoC, I'll do the same with EoG.

It's a matter of builds, rolls and the air humidity.
My bet would be on EoG, since they can put their feats to some actual use.

[Scow2]

The answer to a question constructed that way would be:
Yes.Actually, that is not a valid answer to the question: If it had been "Would a Champion of Corellon or Eye of Gruumsh win in a 1 vs 1 fight?" it would be a valid (If useless) answer, but this one does not present the options as a set.

[herrhauptmann]

At a guess, Eye of Gruumsh. That's assuming both take say fighter 10.
Better and fewer prereqs, and he gets rage. That opens him up for a lot of ways to boost damage. Including: Frenzied Berserker. The CoCL gets some defensive boosts, but they don't even cancel out the attack/damage boost the EoG gets from rage alone.

CoCL has a bunch of feat prereqs that do nothing with its class abilities. Dodge, Mobility, and Mounted Combat.

Wow, ninja'd.
Anyway, using different entry methods to their respective classes, a CoCL won't do as badly. Fighter/swashbuckler/rogue with daring outlaw will do a lot better than fighter X. But he'll have to try harder, optimize more, to beat an EoG.

[limejuicepowder]

Eye of Gruumsh, all the way. Besides having much easier prereqs, they get battle spittle, which is pretty potent.

Basically, they're as good in melee as any barb (pretty good), with the addition of a few nifty tricks. I like 'em.

[Piggy Knowles]

Well, in general I'd agree with the folks that say Eye of Gruumsh, but here's some food for thought:

Eye of Gruumsh will almost certainly be doing most of its damage via Power Attack.

Champion of Corellon Larethian has all the feats necessary to take Elusive Target.

Honestly, I think that I could build a CoCL that would do a pretty good job of negating just about anything an Eye of Gruumsh could throw at it, assuming no shenanigans (like going 9s Fighter). Melee and charger builds are pretty easy to shut down, even by other melee builds.

EDIT: To clarify, I mean that the average Eye of Gruumsh will almost certainly be better than the average CoCL. I'm just saying that a CoCL that specialized in defense could pretty handily shut down just about any standard melee tricks. Of course, very little of that has much to do with the actual CoCL class, so.... Eye still wins?

[Xerlith]

Actually, that is not a valid answer to the question: If it had been "Would a Champion of Corellon or Eye of Gruumsh win in a 1 vs 1 fight?" it would be a valid (If useless) answer, but this one does not present the options as a set.

Yes. It does not. That was the point I was trying to make. :smallbiggrin:

[limejuicepowder]

Champion of Corellon Larethian has all the feats necessary to take Elusive Target.


I'd put that a strength of the class, actually (silver lining, maybe?). Yes you are forced to waste two feats on complete crap, but at least there is a little carrot at the end of that road in Elusive Target.

OK strength is too strong a word....the point is, there exists something to offset some of the pain of being forced to take dodge and mobility. Elusive Target is actually really awesome, just not 3 feats worth of awesome. But if you have to take dodge and mobility anyways, you'd be silly to not take Elusive Target at that point. In that way, ET could almost be considered a class feature (not unlike druids and natural spell).

Still doesn't give an answer to battle spittle though. And loosing dex bonus to AC negates the benefits of dodge, which negates the benefits of ET. Which means that unless the CoC can avoid battle spittle, he's still getting roflstomped the next turn.

[Piggy Knowles]

Blinding Spittle is nice, but it's a Reflex save (which will probably be decent on a CoCL), and Action Before Thought, IHS, Diamond Defense, etc. all make it not much of a threat. Yeah, sure, those last ones aren't actually CoCL class features, but come on, you mean you weren't planning on making your CoCL also a Master of Nine?

[limejuicepowder]

Blinding Spittle is nice, but it's a Reflex save (which will probably be decent on a CoCL), and Action Before Thought, IHS, Diamond Defense, etc. all make it not much of a threat. Yeah, sure, those last ones aren't actually CoCL class features, but come on, you mean you weren't planning on making your CoCL also a Master of Nine?

Ghaa what is that crap...penalized touch attack AND a save? I thought it was just the touch attack at -4. Nvm, that ability isn't nearly as good as I thought.

Not looking good for the Eye.

[Piggy Knowles]

Gah, but the requirements for CoCL are worse than I remembered. They require proficiency with ALL martial weapons, so Warblade doesn't cut it. My initial build stub of Monk 2/Warblade 5/Mo9 5/CoCL 8 just sputtered and died.

Monk 2/Fighter 2/Warblade 3 works, but I'm still annoyed. What a stupid class.

EDIT: Also, I either need to use flaws or multiple UA fighting styles to get all the necessary feats in if I want to qualify by level 12. Have I mentioned that I hate this class?

EDIT2: Never mind, I had accidentally dropped a feat. The last bit still stands, though.

EDIT3: And, of course, the bonus feats it grants are so incredibly limited that I'm struggling to take anything useful with them. I've got a Warblade 3/Cobra Strike Monk 2/Fighter 2/Mo9 5/CoCL 8 build together now that I'm pretty sure could stop most Eyes of Gruumsh cold, but it ain't pretty, and eight levels of Warrior would have served just as well. (Better, really, because then I wouldn't be setting feats on fire.)

[Eldariel]

Gah, but the requirements for CoCL are worse than I remembered. They require proficiency with ALL martial weapons, so Warblade doesn't cut it. My initial build stub of Monk 2/Warblade 5/Mo9 5/CoCL 8 just sputtered and died.

Elf Warblade has all martial weapon profs, does he not? Only martial weapons not covered by Warblade are the Shortbow and the Longbow, which Elf has a racial proficiency in.

[Piggy Knowles]

Good point, that's slightly less obnoxious. That means I can go back to Monk 2/Warblade 5 (assuming no multiclassing penalties). Still an ugly build, though. I'll have to tinker with it more when I get home.

Actually, thinking on it more, Monk 2/Swordsage 2/Warblade 3 is probably an even better lead in, then, so that I don't have to spend a feat on Martial Study. Discipline focus makes up for the feat lost by not taking Warblade 5, too.

[StreamOfTheSky]

CoCL also requires prof. with Heavy Armor. So a Monk/Warblade/Swordsage build won't cut it, unless you like wasting feats on pointless stuff.

Just bite the bullet and dip Crusader 1. It gives prof. with all armor and with all martial weapons, and I found it works decently when mixed with Warblade. The Warblade maneuvers provide something to do when the random Crusader maneuvers give you crap to work with. And later on you can use the crown of the white ravens type items to replace the level 1-2 Crusader stuff with actual decent maneuvers for mid/late game.

Or stick with Fighter, whatever. You could also go with 4 levels of Martial Rogue for more feats (3), on top of any fighter dip. The BAB loss would slow your entry into CoCL, but...considering how godawful the PrC is, perhaps that's a GOOD thing. There's no requirement in this thought exercise to enter the respective PrC as soon as possible, is there? Just as long as you're making a "good faith" attempt to enter it fairly promptly, and not just keep putting it off by various multiclassing tricks?

[Piggy Knowles]

OK, so then...

Unarmed Swordsage 2/Crusader 1/Warblade 5/Mo9 4/CoCL 7/Mo9 +1?

The feats should shake out if you assume that unarmed Swordsage actually grants IUS, rather than just the unarmed damage progression of a monk.

You end up with 8th level maneuvers from any school, and a surprisingly decent number of them to boot. You could pick up Mobility with your CoCL bonus feat at first level in time to nab Elusive Target by level 15.

If multiclass penalties are in play, it would have to be something like SS 2/Crusader 2/Monk or Fighter 2/Warblade 2 instead...

[The Random NPC]

OK, so then...

Unarmed Swordsage 2/Crusader 1/Warblade 5/Mo9 4/CoCL 7/Mo9 +1?

The feats should shake out if you assume that unarmed Swordsage actually grants IUS, rather than just the unarmed damage progression of a monk.

You end up with 8th level maneuvers from any school, and a surprisingly decent number of them to boot. You could pick up Mobility with your CoCL bonus feat at first level in time to nab Elusive Target by level 15.

If multiclass penalties are in play, it would have to be something like SS 2/Crusader 2/Monk or Fighter 2/Warblade 2 instead...

If multiclass penalties are in play, you could play a Half-elf and be fine.